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keylie: 2013-06-10 08:00:15 am
keylie: 2013-06-10 07:57:58 am
keylie: 2013-06-10 07:57:40 am
keylie: 2013-06-10 07:55:33 am
keylie: 2013-06-10 07:54:46 am
Hello everyone

I started running this game a few days ago, and came up with a nice route that doesn't involve any grinding.
Mainly because I really don't like it, and I wouldn't run this game if I had too.
Also because I found a setup that allows to do the elixir glitch on both last forms of Lavos.
Here is an exemple, sorry for the poor audio quality: http://www.twitch.tv/kilaye/c/2396255

So what I do is that I complete the first part of Zeal (loosing against Golem), so that I can grab an elixir at Arris Dome.

The main problem with no grinding is the Lavos Shell battle, because I do not have Dino Tail. What I do is that I grab GoldErng at Arris Dome also and Swallow for Crono, and put Silver Earing at Ayla, so that both are at 500+ HP which allow them to survive to any attack by Lavos Shell.

Also after Retinite Marle has enough TP to learn Haste, so I put her in the team with GreenDream, so that she has enough time to cast Haste on Crono and Ayla. Finally, I buy a bunch of Full Tonics for this fight at Kajar (which is on my way).

You can find the complete route here.
I estimate that this route is about 12 minutes faster than Obdajr's route (current WR holder with 3:37).

I'm streaming my runs on Twitch, I hope to see you there Smiley
Thread title:  
Edit history:
XenonZer0: 2013-07-30 12:19:24 pm
XenonZer0: 2013-07-30 11:52:41 am
XenonZer0: 2013-07-30 11:52:34 am
Who needs sleep?
I'm pretty new to Chrono Trigger as a speedrun (and speedrunning in general, I suppose) but I had a thought that you might be able to shed some light on.

Can I ask why you don't simply grab the elixir in the chest on the third floor of Guardia Castle's western tower in 1000AD after the trial? Does it not spawn at that time period, or does it need a specific story trigger?  Is it because getting the elixir in Arris Dome is more time-efficient given that you need to acquire the Lumin Robe + Gold Earring?

Also, I attempted elixir glitching Outer Lavos, figuring it would be possible, given the availability of 3 Elixirs in the route (should the Castle Tower Elixir actually be viable) and unfortunately, that didn't work.  When you add Marle into your battle party on battle speed 1, she gets her ATB to the appropriate point to be able to target Lavos, but for whatever reason, the heal doesn't kill him.  I imagine that this is because the shell is considered "living" versus the inner/core parts that have an "undead" quality to them or something to that effect.  (that statement is entirely inferred from the fact that the healing move that Inner Lavos uses is called "Span Death" and a healing item kills him xD)

But yeah, this route seems completely viable to me, and from what I can gather of your video, it seems to work pretty well for you.  I'll have to try out doble Elixir Glitch in my next run myself!  Sadly, I'm not great at one of the darn things, so I can't imagine how much of a pain the second one is.

Glad to meet another Chrono Trigger runner!  Best of luck, mate!
From what I've heard about the elixir glitch, it kills enemies by overflowing their HP to negative values, which only happens when the enemy has 16384 HP or more.  Lavos's shell only has 10000 HP, so the glitch didn't kill it.
Who needs sleep?
Oh is that why?  I guess that makes sense.  I can probably test it out on Ocean Palace Lavos, since the shell HP there is something like 30k.  If the HP total has to be that high and that's the only factor it ought to work.  Though, testing it there has no point in a run since you never get there. xD

Thanks for the help, Nitrodon!
Who needs sleep?
So I've spent a good chunk of time today timing some things, and I think I might have found a way to make some minor improvements over your run, Keylie.

From what I gather from reading up on the elixir glitch, you can do it on an enemy with, as Nitrodon said, 16,384 HP or more.  Inner Lavos and Lavos core are no-brainers, since they have 30,000 and 20,000 HP respectively.  Lavos Shell, on the other hand, has a mere 10,000 HP.  That is, UNLESS you fight him in the Ocean Palace.  Then the shell has 30,000 HP and breaks the HP limitation for the elixir glitch to work.

Should this be the case, fighting Lavos and performing the elixir glitch three times should, in theory, shave off nearly all of the time spent dealing with Lavos's "Boss Gauntlet" when you fight him through the portal, since you don't have to do that part of the fight at the Ocean Palace (-7-8 minutes) as well as the majority of the fight with Lavos itself, saving an additional 5 minutes or so.  This means that this strategy saves around 12-13 minutes from the Lavos fight alone.

HOWEVER.  This does mean that you need to go through more of the storyline, as well as fighting additional bosses.  Giga Gaia, and GolemTwins to be specific.  Plus you have to traverse Sewer Access, the Mountain of Woe, and the Ocean Palace.  After running through and timing how long it takes to simply travel through those areas (ignoring any attempts to avoid fights for the sake of simply completing the path) it looks like at the entrance to the Ocean Palace, you have around 11 minutes to complete it to remain under the time that I've seen from Keylie.  I THINK this is possible, but my characters that I was testing on were loaded on a file that used Obdajr's old path, and so they were stupid over-levelled by comparison, and I had incorrect gear. (no Swallow makes me sad)

I have a list of times for what I was able to get done before needing to leave for work today, so if anyone is interested, feel free to have a gander below.

Keylie's Path
Golem -> Lavos Death/End - 0:54:45

My Prospective Path
Golem -> Epoch - 0:14:00 - 0:40:45 Remain (can escape most fights in Sewer Access)
Sunken Desert        - 0:10:03 - 0:30:32 Remain (4 fights grants rock throw before Retinite)
Desert -> Mt Woe  - 0:03:00 - 0:27:32 Remain (can use save anywhere to skip Mud Imp and Red/Blue beasts in Terra Cave)
Mt Woe -> Zeal      - 0:13:30 - 0:14:02 Remain
Zeal -> Dalton      - 0:03:00 - 0:11:02 Remain (Drill Kick on Dalton 1-shots [Maybe Spincut w/Swallow? Probably faster])

Bear in mind that this all hinges on whether or not the Elixir Glitch works on Lavos Shell at the Ocean Palace.  I haven't gotten a chance to really test that yet, but as soon as I do, I will update here to keep people up to date.  I did test if it was possible to manipulate the ATB for that fight, and it looks like you might be able to, but with my small number of tests, I wouldn't bank on my hunch being right.  Swallow's speed boost over the Slasher might make it more viable as well, but I didn't have it on this file.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I am just a little excited to see if this all works.
Edit history:
keylie: 2013-08-05 02:32:10 pm
Hello Xenon

That's actually a very good idea. I tried at some point to get the Epoch with wings to skip the Outer Lavos fight, so I tried continuing with the story. However, I stopped at Twin Golems because it was a very difficult fight after a quite long dongeon. I totally forgot about that Lavos fight.
Both fights and Red/Blue beasts are skippable, but it quite hard to do Sad
It may be possible to replace some fights in Retinite with the 100 TP fights in Mt Zoe to save some time.

I will make some timings of this route like you did. Here is a save file of my route just after Outer Lavos, if you want it.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-oYVyKncfh0MUMyTGpxbWJ1aTA

EDIT: Bad news. When you kill Lavos Shell in the Ocean Palace, then you don't have the save point inside Lavos...
Here are the timings I had for this new route:
Lab32->Epoch = 4:30
Epoch->MtWoe = 1:40
MtWoe->Zeal = 10:00
Zeal->Palace = 1:50
Palace->TwinG = 6:25
TwinG->Lavos = 5:30
Who needs sleep?
Oh no! Sad I didn't realize that Ocean Palace Lavos didn't have that save point!!  That's super dissappointing... On the upside, though, I guess we at least know whether or not it's viable.  Thanks for looking into it, though!  I'll keep my eyes open to see if I can think of anything else that could potentially be useful.  Till then, I'll be trying to catch up to your runs! Tongue
Everything's better with Magitek
I just found a way to save ~10 seconds during the cutscene where Melchior repairs the Masamune. First, put Lucca and Marle in your party, then use the fadeout glitch to skip talking to Melchior when you first enter his hut. Then when you go downstairs to repair the Masamune, Lucca will remain in your party and it'll skip all of her actions and dialogue. This saves time by not having to wait for either Lucca or Robo to walk around, check the books, pick up the cup and rock, or say anything at all. Also, for some reason Robo gets put back into your party afterwards.
Who needs sleep?
Ooooh!  I saw that posted on twitter earlier! 

I'm going to have to give it a shot when I get back from this weekend.  I knew about Robo having to walk around and whatnot, but I'd never attempted having a different party composition than that, so this is very interesting!

Good find! Cheesy
Edit history:
keylie: 2013-08-08 08:15:44 am
Nice finding !
Here are some other improvements/ideas:
- After the Flea fight, the RNG is always the same, so it is possible to script the Slash fight to make it as fast as possible (like that).
- If we remove all saves before starting a new file, the rng is always set up to 0, so it is possible to script the beginning of the game (mainly to manipulate the Naga-ette fight)
- As a general matter, try to get less chests, because with a fully scripted Magus castle, we use a lot less mid tonics, so we need less money. The first one in my mind is the full ether at Reptite Lair which is way too dangerous to take.
Edit history:
XenonZer0: 2013-08-08 10:57:55 am
Who needs sleep?
Quote from keylie:
The first one in my mind is the full ether at Reptite Lair which is way too dangerous to take.


Oh man. If we could cut out that chest I think everyone's lives would be a lot easier. That thing is the cause of SO MUCH anxiety, hahaha

Oh also! I was wondering if the NTSC-U and NTSC-J versions would be considered separate categories for this game?  I've been noticing a lot of differences between the two and I was considering putting together a comprehensive list of regional changes between them as I've never found one before.
By scripting do you guys mean for practice runs? Because isn't scripting forbidden on SDA nowadays? Maybe you mean just writing down entire sections on a per-command basis?
By scripting, I mean to manipulate battles by doing the right commands so that the ennemis are doing what you want them to do. As in Chrono Trigger, the RNG only depends on the type and order of the actions that are done, you can easily replicate any fight if the RNG is the same.
At the beginning of the Slash fight, the RNG is always the same, so you can learn a fight by heart.
Who needs sleep?
I hate to be annoying, but I have a question (more a request), should anyone have the time to answer it:

So I've been running the path that keylie outlined in his first post since about a month ago (i think) and I've managed to get really consistent runs up to Lavos Core, and I'm super stoked to finally finish a run and record it, BUT I can't for the life of me nail down that final elixir glitch.  I've gotten all of the attacks/actions from Lavos core to run properly, but when Marle revives with GreenDream, she is registered as a valid target for the elixir.  I have done several hours of testing to see what I am doing wrong, but I  just can't figure it out!  I think in around 200-250 attempts, I've gotten all the actions right about 85-90% of the time, but Marle still gets targeted by the elixir.  Can anyone let me know what I'm doing wrong?

If you need specific turn information, it's below:

I exit the menu after re-equipping Marle with the GreenDream as soon as the music changes key (after the first full sequence, and beginning the second)
Right Core attacks and kills Crono, Center does Time Warp.
Ayla collapses (still not sure why she dies, but whatever)
Left Core heals Center
Marle Hastes self
Left core attacks and kills Marle
Marle Re-animates
Elixir *CANNOT TARGET ANYONE BUT MARLE* <--- And here's the issue.

I think it might be because she's been designated as a target by the Right Core, but I don't have any way of being certain of that, nor do I have a method to check it.  Additionally, it might just be that my rhythm is bad when I select Haste to cast it.  I REALLY don't know.

Any input/pointers on this is greatly appreciated.  Sorry to be "that guy" right now, but I feel like I've exhausted what I think I'm capable of doing with it... >_<
Edit history:
keylie: 2013-08-18 01:47:11 am
Hi,

In fact, the setup has changed and is really easy now :
- Speed battle at 4
- On the menu, equip Marle with Green Dream and exit whenever you want
- Wait for Crono and Ayla to die. The cursor will go automatically to "Tech" on Marle
- Watch out for the healing spell. The bit is first moving to the right, then moves down and cast the spell. Hit A, A, A to cast Haste after the bit is going down. You have like 1 second to do it, it's really easy.

There were small changes in the route that were highlighted with % xxx % (just updated the document). It's possible to do sub 3:20 with this route now.

EDIT : Video showing it
Edit history:
jet: 2013-08-20 11:26:42 pm
jet: 2013-08-20 11:26:36 pm
jet: 2013-08-19 05:28:39 am
jet: 2013-08-19 05:27:54 am
jet: 2013-08-18 03:32:39 pm
jet: 2013-08-18 03:31:45 pm
jet: 2013-08-18 03:29:23 pm
jet: 2013-08-18 03:25:17 pm
See post #2 and #3 below this!
Thanks jet, this will save a bunch of time !
I beat my PB with a 3:20:04
Jet, this Zombor skip works differently from what you explained.
Getting the skip depends on the timer of the game. It has a cycle of 24 frames:

frames 0-15: you can't get the skip whatever you do
frames 16-19: you have 4 frames to trigger the bad skip (soldiers disappear)
frame 20: you have 4 frames to trigger the good skip
frame 21: you have 3 frames to trigger the good skip
frame 22: you have 2 frames to trigger the good skip
frame 23: you have 1 frame to trigger the good skip
frame 24: same as frame 0
etc.

One way to get a chance to get the good skip consistently would be to find a particular position, save, load and rush to the trigger. Loading resets the internal timer so that we will always get to the trigger as the same position in the cycle. I hope such a setup exists, I will work on it.
Edit history:
ottavino: 2013-08-20 05:10:57 pm
I found a setup few hours ago:



@Kilaye: like the old one, you need to release and press B after the second loading, sorry!
Edit history:
jet: 2013-08-21 12:43:58 am
jet: 2013-08-20 11:26:58 pm
jet: 2013-08-20 11:24:41 pm
Quote from keylie:
One way to get a chance to get the good skip consistently would be to find a particular position, save, load and rush to the trigger. Loading resets the internal timer so that we will always get to the trigger as the same position in the cycle. I hope such a setup exists, I will work on it.


I was about to just edit my post as I had noticed that the timing was completely off as I was doing practice runs today.  I had practiced that skip by loading from a file after the text stops after giving the jerky to him.  I cut out what I thought was just wasted time from the video and just showing the trick from when I actually move on the bridge.  ottavino's video is a reliable setup from what I've done with it so far.

I don't know the inner workings of the game so I really didn't think the skip was timer based.  I thought it based on the position you ended up when you reloaded the file.

Quote from keylie:
I beat my PB with a 3:20:04


At Magus's castle, you save and reload (you also wait a little before selecting your file) before entering the castle.  What is this for? You're the only person I see doing this so I figured I'd ask.  Is this part of the scripting slash battle you posted earlier?

Great run btw!
Quote from jet:
At Magus's castle, you save and reload (you also wait a little before selecting your file) before entering the castle.  What is this for? You're the only person I see doing this so I figured I'd ask.
Great run though!


To manipulate the battle versus Flea, who doesn't counterattack if the value 7E29AD is equal at 03 at the beginning of the battle. To get this value, 7E29AD must be between B9 and E0 before the "Flea?" battle. To get this interval, 7E29AD must be between 61 and 97 before the battle versus 4 Hench and 2 Bats.
When you load a file, 7E29AD take the value of 7E0D00, which is incremented continually at each frame. More info here: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=181388#181388

With it, the battle versus Flea will be always the same (Crono and Marle attack near the end to avoid Flea counterattack), and 7E29AD will be equal at D7 after this battle. then at 0A after the 5 decedent battle. We can manipulate the Slash battle to get critical hits by Frog only, and save time.

The save and reload before Magus battle works in the same way.
Edit history:
keylie: 2013-08-23 11:25:13 am
We are starting to do some races with Ottavino. If anyone wants to join (:
It is also possible to do races until End of Time (about 50 minutes)<
Who needs sleep?
I'm down for End of Time races.  It would be some great practice for the beginning of the game!  (which I severely need Tongue )

New WR with some battle optimisations and manipulations I found (sorry for the sound...)

Berserker is used on Marle in 2300, Masamune is done with only 1 mid tonic used, I save and reload before Reptite Lair to manipulate Ayla critical hits on Nizbel and all battles in Magus Castle... I played on Wii, so the double elixir gltich at the end doesn't work at speed 4, only speed 6.
Hello everyone.  I was interested in learning to speed run this game.  I put in my cartridge and apparently after a decade in my parents attic, it has died.  I was wondering which versions of the game counted for the record since replacement cartridges are pretty expensive now.  Also is there a main thread or place where strategies or WR times are discussed.  I have looked around but everything seems pretty scattered.  Sorry if this was the wrong place to ask.