...and deal with 8 blocks that could potentially be cracked, and force you to undo x times that you waste time? If anything it's the same amount of time if your lucky, don't think it'd be faster by any means (unless you use that dark block, which I doubt you would since you use it on the final boss). I like the safe and simple way of just saying gtfo to all that. lol
SDA Forum
Speed is all that matters.
Another Issue I noticed about 9-4 is a consistency issue with the very beginning, that is, unless I'm doing something wrong.
It happened in my run earlier.
The first sheep actually attacked (it missed though because I was gone already) and the second sheep actually moved towards me before I could get up. I had to run around this and then my whole level broke at the very beginning already and I had to retry.
Normally it works perfectly fine, but sometimes there's that one run where this happens and I still couldn't figure out why.
(Going to sleep before actually sending the post is also a very good idea... silly me)
It happened in my run earlier.
The first sheep actually attacked (it missed though because I was gone already) and the second sheep actually moved towards me before I could get up. I had to run around this and then my whole level broke at the very beginning already and I had to retry.
Normally it works perfectly fine, but sometimes there's that one run where this happens and I still couldn't figure out why.
(Going to sleep before actually sending the post is also a very good idea... silly me)
Yeah that happens about 50/50 for me as well. I can usually get through without restarting though (as tight as it becomes). I'm sometimes tempted to just push those blocks so the 2nd sheep jumps to your level and just knock him down, but it'll cost you an extra second to do. It's much more safe than risking a whole restart and/or wasted time going around him and continuing on.
Well, I promised in the introduction thread that I would post about this eventually, so here goes.
I recently played around a bit with speedrunning this game. After some practise runs, I watched Neviutz's 1:32:38 WR video and took a lot of strategies from that. By the way, I hope you're reading this Nev, because a lot of this is aimed towards you. When I thought I had my strategy down, I started my first serious run.
Strange thing was, even though it went very well, I kept falling further and further behind your time somehow. Like, after 2-1 I was already 10 seconds behind, which couldn't possibly be explained by the minuscule gameplay differences. It took me a while to realise, but apparently my PS3 has some pretty significant slowdown when running this game. It's most noticeable during bosses and stage skips (the stage skip in 6-3 pretty much freezes the game sometimes). So yeah, that sucks. Don't know if it's my PS3 showing it's age or what, but it eliminates any chance of me beating your record.
Gameplay-wise the run actually turned out great, final time being 1:34:30, if I recall correctly. Based on gameplay quality, it should have been approximately equal to the WR run, give or take about half a minute. Had some bad luck on 9-2 and a serious brainfart in 9-3, but otherwise it was nearly perfect.
So, with me not being able to get a WR run on my PS3, I figure I may as well help improve Neviutz's strats. The biggest improvements I made over your WR video are in 6-2 and the start of 9-2 (really don't get why you're so slow at that part :P), along with a few minor things in other areas. With these, sub 1:32 should be very doable, sub 1:31 is probably possible, but would require near perfection. So if you're reading this, Neviutz, just tell me if you're still interested in improving your time, and I'll try to explain my strats in detail.
I recently played around a bit with speedrunning this game. After some practise runs, I watched Neviutz's 1:32:38 WR video and took a lot of strategies from that. By the way, I hope you're reading this Nev, because a lot of this is aimed towards you. When I thought I had my strategy down, I started my first serious run.
Strange thing was, even though it went very well, I kept falling further and further behind your time somehow. Like, after 2-1 I was already 10 seconds behind, which couldn't possibly be explained by the minuscule gameplay differences. It took me a while to realise, but apparently my PS3 has some pretty significant slowdown when running this game. It's most noticeable during bosses and stage skips (the stage skip in 6-3 pretty much freezes the game sometimes). So yeah, that sucks. Don't know if it's my PS3 showing it's age or what, but it eliminates any chance of me beating your record.
Gameplay-wise the run actually turned out great, final time being 1:34:30, if I recall correctly. Based on gameplay quality, it should have been approximately equal to the WR run, give or take about half a minute. Had some bad luck on 9-2 and a serious brainfart in 9-3, but otherwise it was nearly perfect.
So, with me not being able to get a WR run on my PS3, I figure I may as well help improve Neviutz's strats. The biggest improvements I made over your WR video are in 6-2 and the start of 9-2 (really don't get why you're so slow at that part :P), along with a few minor things in other areas. With these, sub 1:32 should be very doable, sub 1:31 is probably possible, but would require near perfection. So if you're reading this, Neviutz, just tell me if you're still interested in improving your time, and I'll try to explain my strats in detail.
Speed is all that matters.
My PS3 also has massive slowdown whenever I play this game, which is basically the reason why I chance my camera a lot during the earlier stages (when the lag is extremely noticeable).
The stage push in 6-3 only freezes your game if you push it off too early. Changing the camera angle also helps to reduce lag there.
Aside from that, there are a couple of other factors to lose time aside from lag. There's cutscene skips, text mashing, fast goal grabs, fast spider, etc. I didn't see your run so I I have no idea if any of it is the cause, but these are possibilities.
Also, on an additional note, the 1:32 run isn't the WR anymore. It hasn't been for a while. The WR is 1:31 now and neither of us has really ran the game since that point.
As of right now, I plan to improve my time eventually, however, I have no idea when exactly that would be.
The stage push in 6-3 only freezes your game if you push it off too early. Changing the camera angle also helps to reduce lag there.
Aside from that, there are a couple of other factors to lose time aside from lag. There's cutscene skips, text mashing, fast goal grabs, fast spider, etc. I didn't see your run so I I have no idea if any of it is the cause, but these are possibilities.
Also, on an additional note, the 1:32 run isn't the WR anymore. It hasn't been for a while. The WR is 1:31 now and neither of us has really ran the game since that point.
As of right now, I plan to improve my time eventually, however, I have no idea when exactly that would be.
So changing camera positions can reduce lag? Interesting. I'll have to experiment with that then.
I guess I probably do lose a bit of time on cutscene skips. I usually place the controller on my lap and mash down and x alternately. Do you know of a better method?
Anyway, thanks for the help. I'll experiment some more to try to reduce the time loss.
I guess I probably do lose a bit of time on cutscene skips. I usually place the controller on my lap and mash down and x alternately. Do you know of a better method?
Anyway, thanks for the help. I'll experiment some more to try to reduce the time loss.
The current WR run is here: http://www.twitch.tv/gn_ver2/b/327514915 (HQ version w/o timer:
There are new strats that were found shortly after this run was made which makes sub-1:31 possible, but as Nev said neither of us have been playing it enough to get such a run.
The camera movement does reduce quite a bit of the lag, and the 6-3 skip has to be done exactly as shown (or close to it). The freezing (or extreme, near-freeze, slowdown) comes from too many blocks falling at once, which brings the processing down to near death.
There are new strats that were found shortly after this run was made which makes sub-1:31 possible, but as Nev said neither of us have been playing it enough to get such a run.
The camera movement does reduce quite a bit of the lag, and the 6-3 skip has to be done exactly as shown (or close to it). The freezing (or extreme, near-freeze, slowdown) comes from too many blocks falling at once, which brings the processing down to near death.
Interesting. I'll have to watch that all the way through later, but on first inspection, it does seem to at least be more similar to my strategies on 6-2 and 9-2 (e.g. actually using the drink on 6-2). I think my 6-2 strat might still be a second or two faster, but I'd have to check.
Anyway, I'll try to practise some more if and when I find the time. If either of you ever decide on trying at it again, I'll see if I can help out any.
Anyway, I'll try to practise some more if and when I find the time. If either of you ever decide on trying at it again, I'll see if I can help out any.
6-2 was altered slightly after the run. On the final wall instead of climbing the far left I climb up the middle, and the drink runs out pretty much right when I step on the goal block (in the run the drink runs out 1 or 2 blocks before) 9-2 pretty much follows Nev's path to the best of the abilities and randomness. I haven't really looked into a faster route for that I don't think.
4-1 is probably the big improvement that we found that will pretty much shave the 8 seconds needed for sub-1:31.
4-1 is probably the big improvement that we found that will pretty much shave the 8 seconds needed for sub-1:31.
Still waiting for the Roxio to come in so I don't have any footage yet.
Short version: Item seems to be neglected, I understand you lose about 6 seconds but you usually make it up with the use of items. More specifically the 2-step bottles.
For example in the 1.31.08 speedrun the segment from 56:57 to 57:27 is 30 seconds long.
With the bottle from that same exact spot you can do that segment in 17 seconds.
That's an 7 seconds gain(-6 from merchant) or 2 seconds(-12 if first time talking to merchant*)
*Not sure how long it actually takes to talk to merchant the first time. In fact I'm not even sure what it is even if it's not the first time, 6 seconds is a fair assumption I think.
There's also good segments to use the bottle in 5-2 and maybe 3-2. I also use it in 6-X I think but I forgot the level.
(Glad to see people running the game! Anybody running the game on hard mode?)
Short version: Item seems to be neglected, I understand you lose about 6 seconds but you usually make it up with the use of items. More specifically the 2-step bottles.
For example in the 1.31.08 speedrun the segment from 56:57 to 57:27 is 30 seconds long.
With the bottle from that same exact spot you can do that segment in 17 seconds.
That's an 7 seconds gain(-6 from merchant) or 2 seconds(-12 if first time talking to merchant*)
*Not sure how long it actually takes to talk to merchant the first time. In fact I'm not even sure what it is even if it's not the first time, 6 seconds is a fair assumption I think.
There's also good segments to use the bottle in 5-2 and maybe 3-2. I also use it in 6-X I think but I forgot the level.
(Glad to see people running the game! Anybody running the game on hard mode?)
5-2 uses the book carried over from 5-1 to take care of the sheep that blocks the path towards the beginning. Buying the bottle will replace the book. Even so when using the bottle to do 2 or 3 2-block jumps, it barely saves time if hardly any at all when the merchant dialogue comes into play.
3-2 seems a little more plausible, but being the first time to talk to the merchant, it'll most likely be lost time getting the bottle than without it since the dialogue is longer.
Either way there's a slight extended loss in the time the first moment you talk to that merchant, so it's a little less of a hassle to just ignore him altogether, which is why we don't bother with items from him.
(Also I would love to do hard mode if there were resets...otherwise, fuck those mystery blocks on The Empireo
Though I'm totally not against anyone working on a route! I just want to keep my hair from being pulled after hour-long runs being ruined because of cracked and/or bomb block combos...and possibly monster block movements. It's the extreme randomness of that whole level that's keeping me from actually doing a hard mode run.)
3-2 seems a little more plausible, but being the first time to talk to the merchant, it'll most likely be lost time getting the bottle than without it since the dialogue is longer.
Either way there's a slight extended loss in the time the first moment you talk to that merchant, so it's a little less of a hassle to just ignore him altogether, which is why we don't bother with items from him.
(Also I would love to do hard mode if there were resets...otherwise, fuck those mystery blocks on The Empireo
For 5-2 the sheep aren't a problem since the bottle means you'll bypass them
I see your point with 3-2 and find it hard to justify it. (Found a new route but even then it's not a huge time saver)
I'll try getting a recording or at least draw a map
Those mystery blocks screwed me over at empireo haha. I do think it makes it more interesting to run
I see your point with 3-2 and find it hard to justify it. (Found a new route but even then it's not a huge time saver)
I'll try getting a recording or at least draw a map
Those mystery blocks screwed me over at empireo haha. I do think it makes it more interesting to run
Personally I feel there's less time being saved in 5-2 than in 3-2. 5-2, the only time you really save is the time spent talking to the merchant which makes no time gained whether you get the bottle or not. 3-2 I feel MAY have a chance to gain a second or two since where I'm using it gets you 4 fairly quick jumps going the normal route, but around the normal block item. Only drawback is a slightly longer finish to the stage.
I see what you mean about 5-2 while I was re-recording.
I also have a route that still gets the normal block in 3-2. I know I'm pushing the items hard but I really do believe that the 7-3 route saves tons of time. However for the bottle to be useful it needs to be used twice. One time even if it is to save the time talking to the merchant the first time.
UPS still refuses to send the Roxio to my house (still sitting in the post office doing nothing!) so I decided to use my phone. Ignore the terrible quality, shakey camera, and slow gameplay. I'm holding the camera with 1 hand and need to hold open the cover for the camera while playing with 1 hand.
3-2 (still gets block for ending)
5-2
6-3
(no video) Didn't record since dropping the stage will always be more efficient.
7-3 (skips the entire beginning tower)
I also have a route that still gets the normal block in 3-2. I know I'm pushing the items hard but I really do believe that the 7-3 route saves tons of time. However for the bottle to be useful it needs to be used twice. One time even if it is to save the time talking to the merchant the first time.
UPS still refuses to send the Roxio to my house (still sitting in the post office doing nothing!) so I decided to use my phone. Ignore the terrible quality, shakey camera, and slow gameplay. I'm holding the camera with 1 hand and need to hold open the cover for the camera while playing with 1 hand.
3-2 (still gets block for ending)
5-2
6-3
(no video) Didn't record since dropping the stage will always be more efficient.
7-3 (skips the entire beginning tower)
3-2 and 7-3 I can see working well together in the run. After watching 5-2 I'm still not 100% convinced. I would almost go as far as saying the bottle could be more useful in the end (the column of 2x2 walls on the right). A lot less pushing and pulling and you jump right onto the goal rather than having to climb around.
I started doing a video, but realized pictures might help a little better.
Just push the numbered blocks in order.
The ice block here can be pushed over before or after pushing the blocks below it, but it must be pushed over before you go on ahead here.
The two blocks in between might be optional, but they save on lag if you push them out before pushing off the heavy below. Do not push off the heavy block (marked by X) above. That is going to be your new step to climb up taking place of the bottom heavy block you pushed off.
Final step, push off the block next to you, followed by everything else in front of you (finishes off with a cracked block). This is more or less the last bit of lag that would drag the game to a stand still, and if done right everything will fall down at normal speed.
There's one of two endings you might get after everything has fallen. Either the diamond-shaped spike block pattern will land, which you just push the one spike block out of the way and you get the end pattern afterwards.
...or the spike blocks will fall at a distance and you end up with these heavy blocks, which you only have to push 2 blocks off and climb to the third, and get the end pattern. This option is probably a bit slower due to pushing heavy blocks taking a long time. I believe it's due to how fast you push the last cracked block before the mass falling of all the blocks but I have had 50/50 on either or, so there is some determined factor behind it.
Hopefully this helps explain the skip in better detail.
Just push the numbered blocks in order.
The ice block here can be pushed over before or after pushing the blocks below it, but it must be pushed over before you go on ahead here.
The two blocks in between might be optional, but they save on lag if you push them out before pushing off the heavy below. Do not push off the heavy block (marked by X) above. That is going to be your new step to climb up taking place of the bottom heavy block you pushed off.
Final step, push off the block next to you, followed by everything else in front of you (finishes off with a cracked block). This is more or less the last bit of lag that would drag the game to a stand still, and if done right everything will fall down at normal speed.
There's one of two endings you might get after everything has fallen. Either the diamond-shaped spike block pattern will land, which you just push the one spike block out of the way and you get the end pattern afterwards.
...or the spike blocks will fall at a distance and you end up with these heavy blocks, which you only have to push 2 blocks off and climb to the third, and get the end pattern. This option is probably a bit slower due to pushing heavy blocks taking a long time. I believe it's due to how fast you push the last cracked block before the mass falling of all the blocks but I have had 50/50 on either or, so there is some determined factor behind it.
Hopefully this helps explain the skip in better detail.
Speed is all that matters.
Picture 3: The two blocks in between on are slower to push. The amount of lag saved doesn't weight out the amount of time saved from just ignoring them.
About the lag.
You want the least objects, movement, etc. possible in your camera region. Changing the camera to the side (including up/down directions) is usually a good idea since that will remove the moving blocks when pushing/pulling something off of your view.
About the lag.
You want the least objects, movement, etc. possible in your camera region. Changing the camera to the side (including up/down directions) is usually a good idea since that will remove the moving blocks when pushing/pulling something off of your view.