Catherine (PS3/360)

Edit history:

Neviutz: 2012-02-22 01:24:24 am

Neviutz: 2012-02-22 01:23:57 am

2012-02-22 01:20:03 am

Speed is all that matters.

Looking forward to this. I just recently started playing the game again and had to realize how much of a bitch it can be sometimes. Cheesy

I've only seen the 2:23 run from BostonBrew which had, being honest, a lot of stuff to improve upon so I kinda agree with the sub 2h being possible.

What's with the random block undo trick though? Haven't heard of it yet (then again I never really researched this game much).

Good luck on the run, I may get to memorize the stages as well and try some speed runs for it to help out on strategies and give some competition. Smiley

Edit: Just realized you were talking about a segmented run. While it sure is a lot more convenient and less brain fucking to do segmented run I think a Single Segment run would be far more interesting to see.
It's pure memorization if I'm not mistaken so there's nothing luck required that would require segmentation (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember every single detail about the game's levels)

T3tsuya

Edit history:

T3tsuya: 2012-02-22 01:57:34 am

2012-02-22 01:53:21 am

It is essentially pure memorization and planning almost through and through, that is until the end levels where the boss likes randomizing which blocks he destroys / takes away / turns into any other block. Which can ruin an around 2 hour long attempt at the very end.

My reasons for trying to segment the run are to avoid any ugly mistakes on my end and ugly RNG fuckery on the game's end to push for the every elusive best possible time for the game. Though I may try a SS run depending on how down pat I have this and how much RNG tries to screw me over. I agree though, it would be immensely more interesting.

Touching on that and answering your question. The random block undo trick helps, but doesn't eliminate the random blocks changes the later bosses throw at you. If you push a block and then undo your last move after the boss changes the blocks, they change back, but you stay in the same position. This would pretty much eliminate the need for segmenting if not for the fact that the boss can change the blocks into spring blocks which are actually beneficial to you. There's just a lot of randomness near the very end that would just make it hell for a SS runner. Super fun move there Atlus.

It is essentially pure memorization and planning almost through and through, that is until the end levels where the boss likes randomizing which blocks he destroys / takes away / turns into any other block. Which can ruin an around 2 hour long attempt at the very end.

My reasons for trying to segment the run are to avoid any ugly mistakes on my end and ugly RNG fuckery on the game's end to push for the every elusive best possible time for the game. Though I may try a SS run depending on how down pat I have this and how much RNG tries to screw me over. I agree though, it would be immensely more interesting.

Touching on that and answering your question. The random block undo trick helps, but doesn't eliminate the random blocks changes the later bosses throw at you. If you push a block and then undo your last move after the boss changes the blocks, they change back, but you stay in the same position. This would pretty much eliminate the need for segmenting if not for the fact that the boss can change the blocks into spring blocks which are actually beneficial to you.  There's just a lot of randomness near the very end that would just make it hell for a SS runner. Super fun move there Atlus.

Edit history:

Neviutz: 2012-02-22 02:48:59 am

2012-02-22 02:47:46 am

Speed is all that matters.

Hm, okay that's a point then.

How much do you think a segmented run could be faster than a single segment?

Edit: Also, do you have to drink every night or do you stay drunk for all levels?

2012-02-22 02:59:51 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from Neviutz:

Hm, okay that's a point then.

How much do you think a segmented run could be faster than a single segment?

Edit: Also, do you have to drink every night or do you stay drunk for all levels?

Just like real life, you sober up every day, so you'll have to drink yourself silly again every night.

2012-02-24 11:37:16 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

A new Challenger has appeared!

2012-02-24 11:41:54 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

Quote from Neviutz:

Hm, okay that's a point then.

How much do you think a segmented run could be faster than a single segment?

Edit: Also, do you have to drink every night or do you stay drunk for all levels?

A legit run is from the point when the Catherine logo appears on the bottom left part of the screen at start up and ends when you reach the final step of the final boss. going back and doing each lvl Via cell phone is not a true speed run. Also my record accounts for loading times so the time located in your save file is invalid. also it is an accepted rule that items acquired in previous spheres cannot be be use in the next lvl only items found in the lvl can be used in that lvl only

2012-02-24 11:45:34 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

I think the only reason for the cell phone for a speedrun is if you're doing an IL run of the game. I don't honestly see the point of segmented, since generally segmented would be saving after every level. But that's just my opinion.

2012-02-24 11:47:47 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

Quote from Sir VG:

I think the only reason for the cell phone for a speedrun is if you're doing an IL run of the game. I don't honestly see the point of segmented, since generally segmented would be saving after every level. But that's just my opinion.

what does IL mean? In my opinion the cut scenes are part of the game as is the bar portion, as well as loading screens as annoying as they can be.

2012-02-24 11:53:59 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Individual Levels. So each climbing stage is it's own run. If somebody was interested in doing that, you'd have to do all of the levels (either alone or with others/a team) in one of the difficulties in order to submit.

And yeah, a segmented run could be dun, but I think it's kinda silly. You drink yourself stupid (if it turns out to be faster), leave the bar, do the level, save. Again, my opinion.

Edit history:

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 01:49:31 am

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 01:49:21 am

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 01:49:06 am

2012-02-24 11:56:21 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

Quote from Sir VG:

Individual Levels. So each climbing stage is it's own run. If somebody was interested in doing that, you'd have to do all of the levels (either alone or with others/a team) in one of the difficulties in order to submit.

And yeah, a segmented run could be dun, but I think it's kinda silly. You drink yourself stupid (if it turns out to be faster), leave the bar, do the level, save. Again, my opinion.

IL is less traditional IMO, and segmenting is not nessasary because you need IMO to take load times into consideration. That just makes the importance of the puzzle levels greater.

Edit history:

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 12:07:50 am

2012-02-24 11:57:25 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

also saving takes time. wasting precious seconds.

2012-02-25 12:22:01 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Less legit? How? It still takes a lot of skill to do a puzzle game like this very quickly. In fact, it will take considerably higher skill to produce an IL run of a game like this then a SS run. I know that it's your opinion, but I think that's a very bad one.

Edit history:

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 01:34:33 am

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 01:34:32 am

2012-02-25 01:28:32 am

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

I went for a more traditional speed run. like Mario 64 where the timer stars when the game powers on and ends with the last touch of the bowser star.

Edit history:

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 01:41:36 am

2012-02-25 01:40:06 am

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

also skipping cut-scenes takes timing and skill

2012-02-25 03:53:15 am

Speed is all that matters.

It's his choice whether he wants to do a segmented run or not and I doubt it would be rejected just because it's not SS since it's a different category anyways. I also doubt that he was talking about doing IL runs, just that he wants to segment the run after certain levels that he feels are giving him enough trouble to justify setting splits there. At least that's what I read from his post.

Quote from bostonbrew:

also it is an accepted rule that items acquired in previous spheres cannot be be use in the next lvl only items found in the lvl can be used in that lvl only

You carry items over from one level to another as long as the night doesn't end, don't you? If I understood your sentence correctly then you're saying that you don't make use of this?

Quote from bostonbrew:

IL is less traditional IMO, and segmenting is not nessasary because you need IMO to take load times into consideration. That just makes the importance of the puzzle levels greater.

What does it take to save/load? About 15 seconds? I guess saving 15 second throughout a segment is easily possible given that you have the option to just reset and reload until everything's perfect. You can't do that in a single segment run, you have to deal with every bad random thing that occurs.

Quote from bostonbrew:

also saving takes time. wasting precious seconds.

Having to reset a level several times because of doing a mistake or dying takes more time than this.

Quote from bostonbrew:

I went for a more traditional speed run. like Mario 64 where the timer stars when the game powers on and ends with the last touch of the bowser star.

SDA timing for Mario 64 doesn't start before you get control of the character. It's like this for every game if I'm not mistaken (with few exceptions). I don't know how this is handled for Catherine but I guess it will start whenever you either can skip cutscenes or you first get control of Vincent.

It's his choice whether he wants to do a segmented run or not and I doubt it would be rejected just because it's not SS since it's a different category anyways. I also doubt that he was talking about doing IL runs, just that he wants to segment the run after certain levels that he feels are giving him enough trouble to justify setting splits there. At least that's what I read from his post.

[quote="bostonbrew"]also it is an accepted rule that items acquired in previous spheres cannot be be use in the next lvl only items found in the lvl can be used in that lvl only
[/quote]
You carry items over from one level to another as long as the night doesn't end, don't you? If I understood your sentence correctly then you're saying that you don't make use of this?

[quote="bostonbrew"]
IL is less traditional IMO, and segmenting is not nessasary because you need IMO to take load times into consideration. That just makes the importance of the puzzle levels greater.[/quote]
What does it take to save/load? About 15 seconds? I guess saving 15 second throughout a segment is easily possible given that you have the option to just reset and reload until everything's perfect. You can't do that in a single segment run, you have to deal with every bad random thing that occurs.

[quote="bostonbrew"]also saving takes time. wasting precious seconds.[/quote]
Having to reset a level several times because of doing a mistake or dying takes more time than this.

[quote="bostonbrew"]I went for a more traditional speed run. like Mario 64 where the timer stars when the game powers on and ends with the last touch of the bowser star.[/quote]
SDA timing for Mario 64 doesn't start before you get control of the character. It's like this for every game if I'm not mistaken (with few exceptions). I don't know how this is handled for Catherine but I guess it will start whenever you either can skip cutscenes or you first get control of Vincent.

2012-02-25 08:26:03 am

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

Nicely done there Neviutz, you're catching on to the basics of speed running.

Just to mention really fast Boston, as a runner, if is up to you whether if you want to do a single segment or multiple segments: just because you do a single segment and if someone later on does multiple segments and makes it faster, your run would still be ok since segmented runs are normally seen as faster runs since you can go back and optimize specific parts of the run... The only draw back to this is that for segmented runs, they are usually must be near flawless, whereas for single segment, you can make a few mistakes as you are basically marathoning through the game...

Now I haven't played Catherine, but I've seen enough of the game to say how the timing works here... Timing starts "RIGHT AS" you have control of your character, anything that comes before, (in this case the over-elaborate introduction) wouldn't count. As for when it ends, it would be just as you reached the end of the last boss, the rest is just dialogue and closure...

Speaking of which, I'm sure you already know this, but if you can, try and skip scenes at any given chance you can; however for the end of the game, since timing stops after you reached the top, it is up to you if you ant the ending to play out or not...

Welcome to SDA Boston Smiley

, don't be afraid to ask for help from fellow board members and if you are going to speed run Catherine, I wish you the best of luck...

Nicely done there Neviutz, you're catching on to the basics of speed running.

Just to mention really fast Boston, as a runner, if is up to you whether if you want to do a single segment or multiple segments:  just because you do a single segment and if someone later on does multiple segments and makes it faster, your run would still be ok since segmented runs are normally seen as faster runs since you can go back and optimize specific parts of the run...  The only draw back to this is that for segmented runs, they are usually must be near flawless, whereas for single segment, you can make a few mistakes as you are basically marathoning through the game...

Now I haven't played Catherine, but I've seen enough of the game to say how the timing works here...  Timing starts "RIGHT AS" you have control of your character, anything that comes before, (in this case the over-elaborate introduction) wouldn't count.  As for when it ends, it would be just as you reached the end of the last boss, the rest is just dialogue and closure...

Speaking of which, I'm sure you already know this, but if you can, try and skip scenes at any given chance you can; however for the end of the game, since timing stops after you reached the top, it is up to you if you ant the ending to play out or not...

Welcome to SDA Boston :) , don't be afraid to ask for help from fellow board members and if you are going to speed run Catherine, I wish you the best of luck...

2012-02-25 12:53:07 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

I am new to speed running , however, i want to make sure there is no dispute of the legitimacy of my speed run. If need be, I will do a IL run or change the start timer to keep in line with SDA standards. going back to what Neviutz said I do not understand saving versus retrying debate, I don't save in my runs because I don't quit out at any point, if i am playing on normal i can undo, or if its FUBAR you can retry from beginning or checkpoint. are you saying saving is how you time yourself? or that's how you segment? because I don't usually make mistakes.

2012-02-25 01:37:04 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

Technically a segment run means that you aren't going to finish the run in one go, and will have several videos tied in with your run... A best way to explain segment run would be to refer to those runners who usually take a few months to finish their run... While some people practices for months to speed run a game, the other runners work on specific segments for a long time before moving on...

Now again, if you plan on doing the whole run in one go, more power to you when you attempt the single segment... As for saving vs retrying, that's where it gets a bit tricky to explain, but to make things simple, let's look at it from a single segment standpoint. Saving in SS runs is something usually not seen since there is no need for you to save, however in regards of retrying, that too can vary depending on the circumstances: For example, there are many runs that have "death abuse" where the player purposely kills themselves to warp to a place instead of walking all the way back, however if you have to retry because you made a mistake, that could be looked down on if you make many mistakes in the speed run. However, as you said, you don't usually make mistakes, so this should not be a problem...

Now granted I know that Catherine has the "Undo" where if you need to go back and fix a mistake, you need to do it... Now there is nothing wrong with using undo, and it is better than dieing and having to retry from checkpoint...

----

really fast to conclude, allow me to write a generic "multi-segment" run of catherine...

Segment 1:
Complete night 1
While at the bar, save game
End segment

Segment 2:
Complete night 2-1
at the sanctuary, save game
end segment
OR
complete night 2
at the bar, save game
end segment

etc. etc.
---

of course, a multi-segment of this game isn't that straightforward, but if one wanted to, they could keep redoing a segment or part of a stage as many times as they want to until the finally get it right... Meanwhile segments would be timed from the time you first gain control of your character and ends after you save and exit...

Technically a segment run means that you aren't going to finish the run in one go, and will have several videos tied in with your run...  A best way to explain segment run would be to refer to those runners who usually take a few months to finish their run...  While some people practices for months to speed run a game, the other runners work on specific segments for a long time before moving on...

Now again, if you plan on doing the whole run in one go, more power to you when you attempt the single segment...  As for saving vs retrying, that's where it gets a bit tricky to explain, but to make things simple, let's look at it from a single segment standpoint.  Saving in SS runs is something usually not seen since there is no need for you to save, however in regards of retrying, that too can vary depending on the circumstances:  For example, there are many runs that have "death abuse" where the player purposely kills themselves to warp to a place instead of walking all the way back, however if you have to retry because you made a mistake, that could be looked down on if you make many mistakes in the speed run.  However, as you said, you don't usually make mistakes, so this should not be a problem...

Now granted I know that Catherine has the "Undo" where if you need to go back and fix a mistake, you need to do it...  Now there is nothing wrong with using undo, and it is better than dieing and having to retry from checkpoint...

----

really fast to conclude, allow me to write a generic "multi-segment" run of catherine...

Segment 1:
Complete night 1
While at the bar, save game
End segment

Segment 2:
Complete night 2-1
at the sanctuary,  save game
end segment
OR
complete night 2
at the bar, save game
end segment

etc. etc.
---

of course, a multi-segment of this game isn't that straightforward, but if one wanted to, they could keep redoing a segment or part of a stage as many times as they want to until the finally get it right...  Meanwhile segments would be timed from the time you first gain control of your character and ends after you save and exit...

2012-02-25 01:57:07 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

one problem I have with segmentation is the ability to control my on screen timer, I use a black magic intensity and both my computer and xbox are connected to the same TV so its just a little tough to get the timer to stop at just the right moment, i guess i would have to ask if I could go back and reference my recording to get an official time rather than trying to quickly change my input and stop to timer because i could easily make a mistake while i cannot see my screen

Edit history:

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 02:07:01 pm

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 02:06:46 pm

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 02:06:17 pm

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 02:06:10 pm

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 02:05:47 pm

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 02:01:04 pm

2012-02-25 01:59:47 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

so let me clearify, to get an offical time using segmantation I should...
1. start a new game
2. begin timer once I gain control of the puzzle sequence
3. stop the timer once i save and exit to the menu

Repeat steps 2-3 and add up the times to equate my total run time

PS: if you do not start a new game it is possible to move faster by retrying the first two stages via cell phone menu at the bar because you can get 3 bottle drunk before running the first two stages while in starting a new game you cannot drink to make yourself faster.
is starting a new game the SDA standard? or is it still an official segmentation to go back and play the level at a faster speed than one would normally if you had started the new game.
^this is very important^

2012-02-25 03:46:30 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

let's just say that for the timer, you don't need to time yourself, those who would verify the run would be able to time it for you... For segmentation, it would work just like you said (whether it would be you got control in the puzzle sequence, bar, or safezone). As for what you wrote in your PS, I admit that I can't answer that question with a 100% guarrentee so you might want to do to the SDA discussion and post that question there so that you can get a more definite answer...

2012-02-25 05:40:09 pm

Speed is all that matters.

Run a stopwatch on your cellphone or something if you really want a timer and have no option of accessing your desktop while playing. Though, as MAS already mentioned you wouldn't have to time it at all if you submit to SDA, the verifiers would do it.

Quote from bostonbrew:

PS: if you do not start a new game it is possible to move faster by retrying the first two stages via cell phone menu at the bar because you can get 3 bottle drunk before running the first two stages while in starting a new game you cannot drink to make yourself faster.
is starting a new game the SDA standard? or is it still an official segmentation to go back and play the level at a faster speed than one would normally if you had started the new game.
^this is very important^

I'm most certainly sure it would not be allowed as it doesn't really work as new game+ in this case. IF, and I somehow doubt, it would be allowed then it would be different category.

Edit history:

bostonbrew: 2012-02-25 08:18:44 pm

2012-02-25 08:11:08 pm

Catherine Speedrunner (360)

good answers, okay so how do i submit videos? is it okay if they are only available on twitch? my CPU cannot handle recording and streaming.