Castlevania Lords of Shadow (PS3/360)

2012-02-29 07:50:36 am

All the things

I keep thinking about this game, so I figured I may as well get things rolling by starting up a thread.

I believe the most reasonable categories for this game are SS and IL. Segmented is difficult because the game autosaves every time you beat a level (I need to check if this can be turned off), but I suppose you could make a segment out of every single level sequentially. For IL however, things aren't straightforward, and I can't really think of a precedent that would match. The problem is that this game features collectibles/upgrades. This presents problems in at least two ways: do you keep things in a "New Game+" format where you can assume you have all upgrades, and for non-"New Game+" levels do you allow for any kind of upgrade or collectible path prior to the current target level?

For assuming all upgrades are unlocked/available, this can terribly break some levels since you can skip things you would normally be required to do on a first traversal through a level. Not really an issue for us as speedrunners, but I can understand that some players would want to see how levels would be beaten quickly with just what's available to you on first traversal.

For "initial run" levels, it can potentially boil down to having to forcing players to grind until all available upgrades can be purchased at their current level in order to maintain the utmost advantage. This is not impossible, but annoying and a bit silly. In this way it's almost more reasonable to perform everything as a segmented run as described above, which just proceeds normally without forcing backtracking or grinding.

Single segment runs may be a bit long, but the game is also just plain hard when completing it with minimal collectibles. I don't have an estimate for how long a straight run would take, but an ideal run would make it through without dying (obviously). I haven't tried anything on Easy/Squire difficulty, but to go through several hours of playing without any major screwups against somewhat random mobs will be quite an ordeal. Also, those pre-level loading screens are really long and annoying.

Lastly, which should be the primary system for this? As far as I know, the only difference between the versions is that 360 uses 2 discs as opposed to 1 on PS3. Loading times may also be quite different, but I don't have any way to test this.

Thread title:

I keep thinking about this game, so I figured I may as well get things rolling by starting up a thread.

I believe the most reasonable categories for this game are SS and IL. Segmented is difficult because the game autosaves every time you beat a level (I need to check if this can be turned off), but I suppose you could make a segment out of every single level sequentially. For IL however, things aren't straightforward, and I can't really think of a precedent that would match. The problem is that this game features collectibles/upgrades. This presents problems in at least two ways: do you keep things in a "New Game+" format where you can assume you have all upgrades, and for non-"New Game+" levels do you allow for any kind of upgrade or collectible path prior to the current target level?

For assuming all upgrades are unlocked/available, this can terribly break some levels since you can skip things you would normally be required to do on a first traversal through a level. Not really an issue for us as speedrunners, but I can understand that some players would want to see how levels would be beaten quickly with just what's available to you on first traversal.

For "initial run" levels, it can potentially boil down to having to forcing players to grind until all available upgrades can be purchased at their current level in order to maintain the utmost advantage. This is not impossible, but annoying and a bit silly. In this way it's almost more reasonable to perform everything as a segmented run as described above, which just proceeds normally without forcing backtracking or grinding.

Single segment runs may be a bit long, but the game is also just plain hard when completing it with minimal collectibles. I don't have an estimate for how long a straight run would take, but an ideal run would make it through without dying (obviously). I haven't tried anything on Easy/Squire difficulty, but to go through several hours of playing without any  major screwups against somewhat random mobs will be quite an ordeal. Also, those pre-level loading screens are really long and annoying.

Lastly, which should be the primary system for this? As far as I know, the only difference between the versions is that 360 uses 2 discs as opposed to 1 on PS3. Loading times may also be quite different, but I don't have any way to test this.

VorpalEdge

2012-02-29 04:05:42 pm

welcome to the machine

A dude called satvara has a huge number of videos on youtube showing skips and stuff. Here's an example.

Omnigamer

2012-02-29 04:16:41 pm

All the things

That's what I was hoping to see Cheesy

OOB and secret world tricks on so many levels is pretty awesome. Unfortunately it looks like a lot of them require full upgrades/collectibles, so many wouldn't be useable from a New Game SS.

Phazonelite7

Edit history:

Phazonelite7: 2012-03-01 04:02:53 pm

2012-03-01 03:59:40 pm

Running this game is going to be quite the endeavor. Getting all the different tricks to work in such a long ss may prove to be too frustrating. You could do a segmented run by backing up saves to a flash drive, but that can get clunky and annoying when retrying levels. IL new game+ might be the better choice. However, does ammo for secondary weapons transfer over from level to level? Because assuming they're beneficial to the run, then it wouldn't be possible to do an IL run. Unless you assume that one has to start every IL with max ammo.

Omnigamer

2012-03-01 08:26:31 pm

All the things

I think the assumption on a new game+ IL table is that you start the level with whatever you need for it. So this would require maxing out your ammo between attempts, since current ammo carries over between levels.

As for SS, yeah, it would be kind of ridiculous. However, only the last quarter or more of the game can use most of those tricks since it requires at least Holy Water and is greatly helped by Seraphim Wings, otherwise it's a lot of fundamentals and crowd/boss strats.

Phazonelite7

2012-03-08 03:51:49 am

Hmm. No matter which way you look at it, this game isn't speed running friendly. Do you plan on doing this run yourself Omnigamer or are you simply trying to generate interest?

Caelint

Edit history:

Caelint: 2012-03-08 06:20:09 am

2012-03-08 06:19:16 am

As with almost every single console action game, Findlestick's youtube channel is the place to go for tricks and skips, make sure you check his vids. Sadly I have to agree that the game designers didn't have speedrunning in mind. Only a new game SS or a new game+ IL would make sense. From a speedrunning perspective I'd prefer ng+ IL, as all the big game breaking glitches requires ng+ skills.

Omnigamer

2012-03-08 08:39:37 am

All the things

If nothing happens wih it for a long while I might try running it myself, but for now I simply have too many other projects. It seemed like a reasonable game to try to run, so I thought I'd at least get some discussion started and see what happens from there.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2012-03-18 12:52:15 am

Claimh Happy

Can someone explain the glitches that satvara uses? I tried figuring it out by watching the video and looking at comments, but I just don't understand what he's doing.

lestatvampir

2015-02-14 06:50:33 am

Hey everybody, I was wondering why nobody was running this game. So as we say, "Do it Yourself"!
I would thank Findlestick, Satvara and Akheon for founding all the glitch. I invit you to check their youtube's Channel. They done a great job.
I spent one year to learn the glitches and routing the NG+ run but it worst !

I've made it in 2h23min and even if it could be improved i'm proud of it.

If you want to try it i will make videos in add of the findlestick, satvara and Akheon to show the set up i use and the various timing and inputs.

Sorry for my english, i'm french...

See you soon !

Turbodog702

2017-11-10 11:46:04 pm

Bumping thread from the grave. I currently picked up a 1:29:32 on PC using NG+ "Full Power". Full Power was defined in the findlestick segmented route as using the "All Upgrades" cheat from the cheat menu to start levels or restart from checkpoint with full resources and health.

I would like to get a recording that is SDA viable. I would like to use PC for ease of capture and load times. The main issues are as such:

1. Would it be better for the run to be on PS3 or 360 despite a significantly worse load time and framerate?
2. Would cheats be allowed? SDA is long established as a "No cheats" archive, but the small community that runs and has done work on the game uses Full Power. Should it just be NG+ starting with full Resources instead?
3. The last relevant input is either the final QTE on Satan phase 2 or the skipping of the Dark Crystal animation if you get the cutscene skip. Should this be used or should timing go past the credits (which can be skipped) to the Chapter Completed screen?

As a point to a previous post, I think ILs with NG+ full resource start and Full game with NG+, New Game, and maybe Full Power are the way to go for ease of verification and for covering the most relevant facets of the speedrun.

Bumping thread from the grave. I currently picked up a 1:29:32 on PC using NG+ "Full Power". Full Power was defined in the findlestick segmented route as using the "All Upgrades" cheat from the cheat menu to start levels or restart from checkpoint with full resources and health.

I would like to get a recording that is SDA viable. I would like to use PC for ease of capture and load times. The main issues are as such:

1. Would it be better for the run to be on PS3 or 360 despite a significantly worse load time and framerate?
2. Would cheats be allowed? SDA is long established as a "No cheats" archive, but the small community that runs and has done work on the game uses Full Power. Should it just be NG+ starting with full Resources instead?
3. The last relevant input is either the final QTE on Satan phase 2 or the skipping of the Dark Crystal animation if you get the cutscene skip. Should this be used or should timing go past the credits (which can be skipped) to the Chapter Completed screen?

As a point to a previous post, I think ILs with NG+ full resource start and Full game with NG+, New Game, and maybe Full Power are the way to go for ease of verification and for covering the most relevant facets of the speedrun.

Omnigamer

2017-11-11 09:13:18 am

All the things

1. Run it on whatever system you'd want. Only the PS3/360 versions were released when this thread was initially made, so that's all it highlighted.
2. I'm not familiar with the cheat or what it helps, but it comes down to what it helps you to do. If using that cheat is the only way to play the game in a particularly challenging/effective way, then you can make a case for it. See Bucky O'Hare on NES. If it provides extra bonuses beyond what you'd get from just NG+ that actually take away from some amount of planning, then it would be a harder sell.
3. Ending covers whatever amounts to still playing skillfully. If those skips you mention are dependent on player skill in any way, they should be included. If the game has an accurate track of game time, that should be used. The actual point that you stop your timer can be different from whatever timing is used in an SDA submission, so I wouldn't worry too much about it so long as you're still executing everything you can well.

Turbodog702

Edit history:

Turbodog702: 2017-11-11 09:38:52 pm

2017-11-11 07:38:50 pm

To clarify on "All Upgrades" / Full Power. The cheat allows you to start each level with full resources (health, sub-weapons, magic). It also refills these if you Restart From Checkpoint in the pause menu. The cheat allows for consistency in the run through more aggressive use of Holy Water and Magic.

Pros

+ Consistency in skips
+ More variety in skips
+ No need to farm sub weapons/magic

Cons

- Technically a cheat
- Removes the item budgeting that is present in NG+

The other two things to cover. I have been running on Squire (Easy difficulty) since the run's focus is more on skips and glitches and less on combat. This reduces the amount of damage you take and lowers the enemy HP pool from their inflated levels. Should a run be performed on Normal instead?

Also, at this time, we allow for use of the cheat menu in NG+ to enable cheats that have no effect on the category (ie, "All Combos", you should have all combos unlocked already). This allows you to bypass the auto-save function so you can reset faster and skip cutscenes quicker (needs verification on the cutscenes). The last issue involving the cheat menu is that it makes an icon of Simon on the left side of the screen. This is potentially a slight advantage as the icon gives you an idea of your character state when you cannot see Gabriel due to camera positioning OoBs.

While these things aren't a big deal to me or others I have talked to, I want to be sure I am grinding appropriately for an SDA video. I worry about getting a great run that might be trashed due to breaking a rule of verification unknowingly.

To clarify on "All Upgrades" / Full Power. The cheat allows you to start each level with full resources (health, sub-weapons, magic). It also refills these if you Restart From Checkpoint in the pause menu. The cheat allows for consistency in the run through more aggressive use of Holy Water and Magic.

Pros

+ Consistency in skips
+ More variety in skips
+ No need to farm sub weapons/magic

Cons

- Technically a cheat
- Removes the item budgeting that is present in NG+

The other two things to cover. I have been running on Squire (Easy difficulty) since the run's focus is more on skips and glitches and less on combat. This reduces the amount of damage you take and lowers the enemy HP pool from their inflated levels. Should a run be performed on Normal instead?

Also, at this time, we allow for use of the cheat menu in NG+ to enable cheats that have no effect on the category (ie, "All Combos", you should have all combos unlocked already). This allows you to bypass the auto-save function so you can reset faster and skip cutscenes quicker (needs verification on the cutscenes). The last issue involving the cheat menu is that it makes an icon of Simon on the left side of the screen. This is potentially a slight advantage as the icon gives you an idea of your character state when you cannot see Gabriel due to camera positioning OoBs.

While these things aren't a big deal to me or others I have talked to, I want to be sure I am grinding appropriately for an SDA video. I worry about getting a great run that might be trashed due to breaking a rule of verification unknowingly.

Omnigamer

2017-11-12 09:22:48 am

All the things

So long as the conditions you are using to complete the run are consistent and have justification, I don't think it would be a problem.

"Normal" difficulty is basically never the right option unless there's something unique about it relative to other difficulties. If all that scales with the difficulties is health, then shouldn't be a problem with Easy. Hardest difficulty would also likely be acceptable, but again it depends on just how different it is. If it's all the same route with the exception of longer battles, then stick with Easy.

ktwo

2017-11-15 08:03:11 am

It's suggested above that the three meaningful categories are "NG+", "NG" and "Full Power". They all appear to be well defined, so no problem with that. However, I can't really see from the discussion above how the "Full Power" category is different from any number of possible categories based on invincibility/infinite ammo/"god mode" etc cheat codes? While such possibilities exist for many games, they're generally not played. So what makes this game stick out in this regard? Is it just because someone started playing it that way and then other people followed or is there something about NG+ that makes it impractical to run?
The general rule on the site is that runs using those kind of codes aren't hosted.

Quote from https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Rules:

Codes: Using a beneficial cheat code is not allowed: something that gives more lives, reduces damage, etc. If a code is only cosmetic, like suit-less Samus in NES Metroid, that is acceptable. A code that increases the game's difficulty, such as Donkey Kong Country 3 105%, may qualify as a separate category.

The code to avoid save screens is easier to understand.

It's suggested above that the three meaningful categories are "NG+", "NG" and "Full Power". They all appear to be well defined, so no problem with that. However, I can't really see from the discussion above how the "Full Power" category is different from any number of possible categories based on invincibility/infinite ammo/"god mode" etc cheat codes? While such possibilities exist for many games, they're generally not played. So what makes this game stick out in this regard? Is it just because someone started playing it that way and then other people followed or is there something about NG+ that makes it impractical to run?
The general rule on the site is that runs using those kind of codes aren't hosted.
[quote="https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Rules"]Codes: Using a beneficial cheat code is not allowed: something that gives more lives, reduces damage, etc. If a code is only cosmetic, like suit-less Samus in NES Metroid, that is acceptable. A code that increases the game's difficulty, such as Donkey Kong Country 3 105%, may qualify as a separate category.[/quote]
The code to avoid save screens is easier to understand.

Turbodog702

2017-11-19 10:27:47 am

That was my main concern ktwo. The cheat menu for Full Power runs allows you to utilize a greater variety of skips more quickly. Without "All Upgrades" turned on, the run would need to rely on quite a degree of luck in Holy Water/Dark Crystal drops or farming for them. Magic is also an issue, but is mitigated by Magic Fountains. "All Upgrades" lets you start the level with these resources.

LotBlind

2017-11-20 12:08:42 pm

perma invite link -> https://discord.gg/0126YSbgDbKGGnZuv ::
CV Wiki link -> https://castlevaniaspeedruns.com/Main_Page

I got that from the CV discord. Maybe you guys should join it? Any discussion there may or may not influence SDA's decision on this matter, but it'll probably help CV runners in general. As you see, I already brought it up there.

ktwo

2017-11-23 09:06:55 am

Turbodog, thanks for the clarification. The "full power" category is not a good fit for SDA. If it's a fun way to play the game, I hope this won't discourage you from running it though.

Turbodog702

2017-11-26 07:08:57 pm

As an update, I am currently holding off on recording due toa new find in LoS that could break more levels involving an infinite jump.