Can regular runs and "Runs with skips" co-exist?

2012-12-23 08:09:26 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

As excited as I am to have my 2nd speed run posted to the site, I'm even more excited to find out that new runners have emerged and are working on making improvements to the now existing run. I admit, that when my run is beaten, I'll be a bit sad to drop down to only having one speed run on the site, but at least we will get to see a better run emerge from it. However, when I was looking at the plans to the run, I've noticed something interesting... The run features a glitch where you can get the gem early to move onto the next part of the game without meeting the requirements to get it. If I recall correctly, this is called a "Skip." I don't know what the proper term is for it, but basically this would be like Mario 64 or Spyro 2 where instead of having to collect all the crystals to finish the game, you bypass the requirements in order to complete the game faster.

The thing I question however is that while those games improve the final time by about 1 or two hours, this would improve the final time by about 10-15 minutes. If that is the case, would the run that uses glitches overtake the already existing run? or will both runs be featured, which the run with glitches will probably be the more entertaining run to watch?

Thread title:

As excited as I am to have my 2nd speed run posted to the site, I'm even more excited to find out that new runners have emerged and are working on making improvements to the now existing run.  I admit, that when my run is beaten, I'll be a bit sad to drop down to only having one speed run on the site, but at least we will get to see a better run emerge from it.  However, when I was looking at the plans to the run, I've noticed something interesting...  The run features a glitch where you can get the gem early to move onto the next part of the game without meeting the requirements to get it.  If I recall correctly, this is called a "Skip."  I don't know what the proper term is for it, but basically this would be like Mario 64 or Spyro 2 where instead of having to collect all the crystals to finish the game, you bypass the requirements in order to complete the game faster.

The thing I question however is that while those games improve the final time by about 1 or two hours, this would improve the final time by about 10-15 minutes.  If that is the case, would the run that uses glitches overtake the already existing run? or will both runs be featured, which the run with glitches will probably be the more entertaining run to watch?

Alko

2012-12-23 08:42:14 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

I say it depends on the final run time. 15 minutes out of an hour or fourty minute long run is worth separate categories. 10 minutes out of three hours isn't. The ten minutes out of three hours might~ be acceptable if they come with a really decent, understandable definition. 'Run not using skip A' is a bad definition imho.

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2012-12-23 09:37:37 pm

2012-12-23 09:34:47 pm

welcome to the machine

Alko, your post is incorrect. Please don't make misleading comments like that in the future. Rule of thumb: if someone's asking about SDA rules, don't write a post where every sentence can end with IMHO.

SDA is pretty vague about what deserves a major skips category. Every game is different, and it's impossible (in the mathematical sense) to create a definition that would apply cleanly to all games. But in general we want to reserve this mostly for things that inarguably deserve it, where it would just be common sense. SDA's not comfortable running with separate categories for every minor or even moderate skip in a game, because if the reasons aren't obvious to everyone then you get a whole bunch of problems.

Examples of major skips would be not defeating the four gold statue bosses in super metroid (but crocomire/grapple skip? perfectly fine in regular runs), 0/16star in sm64, selectwarp in Link's Awakening, etc. Generally things that completely subvert the way a game is played and/or skip huge sections of a game and/or are significantly more broken than anything else in the game. Having a clean definition really helps too, although in games where flat-out everything is broken sometimes it gets defined by the goals the run completes instead (ex. mst in oot).

There are more considerations than that, but this is just an informal overview of an admittedly informal process. Can't really say more, since the first post is kinda devoid of detail? Not even sure what game we're talking about, or how important skipping a single gem is in it, etc.

Alko, your post is incorrect.  Please don't make misleading comments like that in the future.  Rule of thumb: if someone's asking about SDA rules, don't write a post where every sentence can end with IMHO.

SDA is pretty vague about what deserves a major skips category.  Every game is different, and it's impossible (in the mathematical sense) to create a definition that would apply cleanly to all games.  But in general we want to reserve this mostly for things that inarguably deserve it, where it would just be common sense.  SDA's not comfortable running with separate categories for every minor or even moderate skip in a game, because if the reasons aren't obvious to everyone then you get a whole bunch of problems.

Examples of major skips would be not defeating the four gold statue bosses in super metroid (but crocomire/grapple skip?  perfectly fine in regular runs), 0/16star in sm64, selectwarp in Link's Awakening, etc.  Generally things that completely subvert the way a game is played and/or skip huge sections of a game and/or are significantly more broken than anything else in the game.  Having a clean definition really helps too, although in games where flat-out everything is broken sometimes it gets defined by the goals the run completes instead (ex. mst in oot).

There are more considerations than that, but this is just an informal overview of an admittedly informal process.  Can't really say more, since the first post is kinda devoid of detail?  Not even sure what game we're talking about, or how important skipping a single gem is in it, etc.

MAS8705

Edit history:

MAS8705: 2012-12-23 09:51:10 pm

MAS8705: 2012-12-23 09:48:58 pm

2012-12-23 09:47:35 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

Oh right... Should have mentioned Crash tag team Racing.

Well it works like this: to complete the game, the player must collect 65 crystals. At the end of each world the player must place a certain amount of crystals into a machine in order to reach the gem and will allow the player to move onto the next world; the last area being where the game is finished after you pull the lever.

Recently, runners have discovered a way that you can get the 2nd gem without having to pay the crystals to get to while another one allow you to gain access to the 2nd world without needing to collect the first gem. This means that the runner would only need to collect 47 crystals to exchange for gems and reach the end of the game instead of 60.

presjpolk

2012-12-23 09:51:48 pm

HELLO!

Sounds to me that would be a good example of a need for a 100% category (getting all crystals) versus an any% (using skips).

MAS8705

Edit history:

MAS8705: 2012-12-23 09:56:11 pm

MAS8705: 2012-12-23 09:55:24 pm

MAS8705: 2012-12-23 09:54:39 pm

2012-12-23 09:54:18 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

Quote from presjpolk:

Sounds to me that would be a good example of a need for a 100% category (getting all crystals) versus an any% (using skips).

well this is more like Any% vs Any% with skips since the bare minimum of crystals needed to finish the game is 65, but then for a 100% run of this game would require you to beat all the tracks, in all five ways (race, crashinator, best lap, rolling thunder, and run 'n gun), all the minigames in the park, all the crystals, all the costumes, all the vehicles, & all the different ways to kill off crash.

presjpolk

2012-12-23 10:03:44 pm

HELLO!

I stand corrected.

Well... it doesn't sound like the gameplay is substantially altered in this case. You just do less of it?

Freezard

2012-12-23 10:14:40 pm

Doesn't sound like a major skip to me... when I think of that category I'm thinking of skips like the one in Pokemon Yellow and the credits warp in OoT. In Serious Sam there are skips everywhere that shortens the run with like 80%, still it doesn't count as major skips.

S.

2012-12-23 10:43:36 pm

Sounds like the average "Don't pick this required object up, just glitch past the barrier" to me.

Half-Life 2 requires you to pick up a weapon in order to have an NPC unlock the next door for you. In a speedrun however, you just propfly over it.
Portal 2 requires you to pick up a potato in order to open the elevator to the next room, but there's a way to glitch yourself into the elevator anyway.

z1mb0bw4y

Edit history:

z1mb0bw4y: 2012-12-25 02:16:20 am

2012-12-25 02:12:45 am

Gets the cake.

Quote from S.:

Sounds like the average "Don't pick this required object up, just glitch past the barrier" to me.

Half-Life 2 requires you to pick up a weapon in order to have an NPC unlock the next door for you. In a speedrun however, you just propfly over it.
Portal 2 requires you to pick up a potato in order to open the elevator to the next room, but there's a way to glitch yourself into the elevator anyway.

Dear Esther requires you to listen to a long boring speech while walking along a cliffside, but you just dive into a trigger and skip it =P

But to properly contribute to the discussion, the typical tricks and glitches that warrant an extra category are things like huge out of bounds skips (think Portal1 or Metroid Prime), or things that cause the game to completely break down (think pokemon or battletoads). Skipping a few gems, but still completing the game's primary goals in a mostly-intended manner, likely won't warrant a separate category.

That all said, you should probably wait for an official opinion on this. Ask flip or another admin, and be sure to include as much detail as possible. They'll be able to tell you for sure, instead of the speculation that's happening in this thread =P

[quote="S."]Sounds like the average "Don't pick this required object up, just glitch past the barrier" to me.

Half-Life 2 requires you to pick up a weapon in order to have an NPC unlock the next door for you. In a speedrun however, you just propfly over it.
Portal 2 requires you to pick up a potato in order to open the elevator to the next room, but there's a way to glitch yourself into the elevator anyway.[/quote]

Dear Esther requires you to listen to a long boring speech while walking along a cliffside, but you just dive into a trigger and skip it =P

But to properly contribute to the discussion, the typical tricks and glitches that warrant an extra category are things like huge out of bounds skips (think Portal1 or Metroid Prime), or things that cause the game to completely break down (think pokemon or battletoads). Skipping a few gems, but still completing the game's primary goals in a mostly-intended manner, likely won't warrant a separate category.

That all said, you should probably wait for an official opinion on this. Ask flip or another admin, and be sure to include as much detail as possible. They'll be able to tell you for sure, instead of the speculation that's happening in this thread =P

RoboSparkle

2012-12-25 03:48:21 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

It sounds like a single skip (that could admittedly save a reasonable chunk of time) but would nonetheless not constitute an extra category because from what you're saying it doesn't look like it destroys the game like some of the examples given above. In that case though, the gameplay would need to be at least on a par with yours to obsolete your run (i.e. if the skip saves 10 minutes then a run that's only 5 minutes faster wouldn't be accepted)

From a personal example, the Arkham City runs on the site have had about 3-4 useful skips discovered since darthknight did his runs but there are still no major sequence breaks - hell, the skips themselves save probably about 5 minutes in total. I could just use those to beat his times (for NG+ I have beaten his time during AGDQ practice) but it wouldn't get accepted on the site because the gameplay is worse or safer in many places.

As z1mb0bw4y said, you'll need an official ruling from an admin and it's really on a game-by-game basis, but a good rule of thumb is that to have separate categories the runs should be clearly different and to obsolete a run, the new run needs to be better, not just uses a new trick.

It sounds like a single skip (that could admittedly save a reasonable chunk of time) but would nonetheless not constitute an extra category because from what you're saying it doesn't look like it destroys the game like some of the examples given above.  In that case though, the gameplay would need to be at least on a par with yours to obsolete your run (i.e. if the skip saves 10 minutes then a run that's only 5 minutes faster wouldn't be accepted)

From a personal example, the Arkham City runs on the site have had about 3-4 useful skips discovered since darthknight did his runs but there are still no major sequence breaks - hell, the skips themselves save probably about 5 minutes in total.  I could just use those to beat his times (for NG+ I have beaten his time during AGDQ practice) but it wouldn't get accepted on the site because the gameplay is worse or safer in many places.

As z1mb0bw4y said, you'll need an official ruling from an admin and it's really on a game-by-game basis, but a good rule of thumb is that to have separate categories the runs should be clearly different and to obsolete a run, the new run needs to be better, not just uses a new trick.

MAS8705

2012-12-25 09:15:53 am

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

As I said before, if it does remove my run off the site or not doesn't bother me. All the same though, we need to see what the final run looks like and see if it counts as the same run or an entirely different one.

Miles

2012-12-25 09:58:18 am

Quote from z1mb0bw4y:

the typical tricks and glitches that warrant an extra category are things like huge out of bounds skips (think Portal1 or Metroid Prime)

No.

mikwuyma

2012-12-25 10:44:40 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

As much as I would like to have a clean definition of what constitutes "major skips" it's nearly impossible because every game is a separate case. That being said, the communities for each game generally (but not always) do a pretty good job of separating the categories themselves.

UchihaSasuke

2012-12-25 04:27:38 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

in this case, it looks like the only way to separate categories is if they find a way to skip almost all crystals.

z1mb0bw4y

Edit history:

z1mb0bw4y: 2012-12-25 09:25:21 pm

z1mb0bw4y: 2012-12-25 08:57:50 pm

z1mb0bw4y: 2012-12-25 08:55:21 pm

2012-12-25 08:53:00 pm

Gets the cake.

Quote from Miles:

Quote from z1mb0bw4y:

the typical tricks and glitches that warrant an extra category are things like huge out of bounds skips (think Portal1 or Metroid Prime)

No.

SDA didn't allow OoB tricks in the MP games for a very long time. They only recently allowed them, along with other tricks, which they deemed major skip glitches. Unless I'm horribly remembering history, but I remember OoB tricks being a big no-no for a long time.

edit: I was correct that they weren't allowed for a long time, but apparently the community agreed that they don't skip all that much. I stand corrected. http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/requesting_a_rule_change_for_the_metroid_prime_series176.html

Perhaps DK64 would have been a better example =P

ShadowWraith

2012-12-25 11:44:46 pm

.

SDA didn't allow OoB fullstop, it wasn't exclusive to the Prime games.

Neohart

2013-03-29 11:47:36 pm

Final Fantasy VII Fanatic

It would really come down to the game, like people have said: Pokemon, OoT, but ultimately it could come down to a community on that game and how they feel about the skip. Of course one could make that argument that one thing might be legit and you could have a whole different view on it.

Fleacy

2013-03-29 11:53:15 pm

I think they could but it would have to come down to being very specific.