Can any game be speedrun?

2013-04-22 10:51:24 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather you're problem with Eternal Eyes is there isn't much improvisation? You're saying once you've decided on a certain path you have to stick with it because taking any other path after that point makes the first path meaningless due to some exclusivity between options. Also, the potential for any one path to be superior to others is completely random because 1) you may not get the correct items to fully execute the plan and 2) the random enemies may not be ideal for the chose path.

Sounds pretty random, but people run rogue-likes and those are still entertaining to watch. There aren't many turn-based strategy games on the site, but I'm sure someone finds at least some entertainment from them: Arc the Lad, Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem(s), and Vandal Hearts. Also consider some of the more random games: Arcomage, Minesweeper, and Clue. They all have their audiences, and though Eternal Eyes may never be in a marathon, I don't see why it can't have a speedrun.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather you're problem with Eternal Eyes is there isn't much improvisation? You're saying once you've decided on a certain path you have to stick with it because taking any other path after that point makes the first path meaningless due to some exclusivity between options. Also, the potential for any one path to be superior to others is completely random because 1) you may not get the correct items to fully execute the plan and 2) the random enemies may not be ideal for the chose path.

Sounds pretty random, but people run rogue-likes and those are still entertaining to watch. There aren't many turn-based strategy games on the site, but I'm sure someone finds at least some entertainment from them: Arc the Lad, Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem(s), and Vandal Hearts. Also consider some of the more random games: Arcomage, Minesweeper, and Clue. They all have their audiences, and though Eternal Eyes may never be in a marathon, I don't see why it can't have a speedrun.

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-23 01:22:11 am

If people want to try and speedrun it then they can, I'm just saying from my viewpoint that a game so heavily influenced by RNG to the point that for you to get a good time you need have good RNG through it all is not my idea of a speedrun. Speedruns should be something more consistent and require more in the way of execution being the time saver. Of course you are going to get games with a "bit" of RNG and its fun to see them being tackled and to see what the runner comes up with to try and keep a good time. But a game where the RNG is practically the whole thing and there is no way to save time on the RNG parts no matter how you execute it doesn't seem like a game that can be speedrun. You pointed out three games which are more random, those games you can still get good times in even with the RNG. Arcomage is a card game and using strategy you can practically get a good time by playing your cards right. Minesweeper is about avoiding those bombs which providing you hit those low numbers can be easily formed make a good run which saves time.

Clue is basically Cluedo, right? How random is it? I watch the video and it seems as though as soon as you start the game you can choose who was the killer and you have 3 things you need to guess. That seems a lot less than the 5 or 6 RNG things happening on each level of a game with 61 battles. Also, it may be because I know nothing about the game which I apologise in advance for if its not a fair judgement; but it seems like any person can do this game and any person could do what they do in it for a laugh. So how does Clue pertain to a speedrun? I could come along one day and come across this game. Then do exactly what they did for a laugh, without meaning to "speedrun" it, and get a good time. Does that count as a speedrun if I wasn't aiming for it to be a speedrun because, for arguments sake, I didn't know what speedrunning is? I unintentionally just did the game quickly because I knew it only took 3 guesses and I was bound to be right at some point.

If you're going to speedrun a game then it shouldn't be possible for someone who doesn't even know what speedrunning is to get the same time as you so easily. I can except Arcomage and Minesweeper but Clue seems like a game which is the very antithesis of a speedrun. At least in my eyes.

If people want to try and speedrun it then they can, I'm just saying from my viewpoint that a game so heavily influenced by RNG to the point that for you to get a good time you need have good RNG through it all is not my idea of a speedrun. Speedruns should be something more consistent and require more in the way of execution being the time saver. Of course you are going to get games with a "bit" of RNG and its fun to see them being tackled and to see what the runner comes up with to try and keep a good time. But a game where the RNG is practically the whole thing and there is no way to save time on the RNG parts no matter how you execute it doesn't seem like a game that can be speedrun. You pointed out three games which are more random, those games you can still get good times in even with the RNG. Arcomage is a card game and using strategy you can practically get a good time by playing your cards right. Minesweeper is about avoiding those bombs which providing you hit those low numbers can be easily formed make a good run which saves time.

Clue is basically Cluedo, right? How random is it? I watch the video and it seems as though as soon as you start the game you can choose who was the killer and you have 3 things you need to guess. That seems a lot less than the 5 or 6 RNG things happening on each level of a game with 61 battles. Also, it may be because I know nothing about the game which I apologise in advance for if its not a fair judgement; but it seems like any person can do this game and any person could do what they do in it for a laugh. So how does Clue pertain to a speedrun? I could come along one day and come across this game. Then do exactly what they did for a laugh, without meaning to "speedrun" it, and get a good time. Does that count as a speedrun if I wasn't aiming for it to be a speedrun because, for arguments sake, I didn't know what speedrunning is? I unintentionally just did the game quickly because I knew it only took 3 guesses and I was bound to be right at some point.

If you're going to speedrun a game then it shouldn't be possible for someone who doesn't even know what speedrunning is to get the same time as you so easily. I can except Arcomage and Minesweeper but Clue seems like a game which is the very antithesis of a speedrun. At least in my eyes.

Hsanrb

2013-04-23 03:04:27 am

Just because a game is heavily RNG does not make it unspeedrunnable or that speedruns of it are invalid. Yes getting a run of a game is unreliable because RNG can swing times upwards of 20-25% away from a Personal Best. If the game includes that randomization, then it can be runnable. I know Pokemon Randomizers are big on SRL, but as long as everyone uses the same seed its raceable. Blinding of Issac has a strong racing community even though its heavily RNG and you cannot give both players the same seed. One of the games I currently run (Jumping Flash) has 1 boss where times can very from 35-50 seconds based on luck, and you fight him twice for the catagory I'm practicing (I can't get the console and a recording medium together for awhile sadly) for means a run can be rejected on the basis that I got hosed on special weapons. One of my friends and I have watched the Japanese rogue like Fushigi no Dungeon for a few hours and those while random are incredibly entertaining and is constantly ran 24/7 in Japan.

Clue is one of those speedruns on SDA that was done for a laugh, the fact someone improved it from 4s to 1s based on console means that people will reset just to get that finished product. Flash Columns on 2 height (lowest) has a 1/6 * 3/(4 thru 6) chance of being able to 1 piece clear the entire level. I laughed when I found out you can 1 piece clear the low flash columns levels. Its a laugh, but I'd never put it on sda.

At this point your just arguing semantics over what you consider a speedrun and what people can run. My personal view is that sports games, music games, auto scrollers, and managing sim games (I'm looking at you IdolM@ster, not sim city) are games I wouldn't consider runnable. The games are either fixed timing, or theres nothing you can do to effect the run. RPGs are fun to watch, because the experts pull facts and can find improvements while the copiers duplicate without reason meaning they are less likely to be reactive to changes. I just can't watch RPG speedrunners who copy a route and if asked facts they go "the WR does it, so I do it as well." Also on my list are games that are constantly patched/updated like Dota/LoL in which a patch is frequent and irreversible. I know Always Online is effecting this for games like SC2/D3 and Steam releases but developers want to fix games and I can't blame them, even if it closes what people abuse in speedrunning.

People can run whatever they want, but not every will look upon what your running in the same light. I like Idolm@ster as a game, but as a speedrun I don't see any value. My view wont change, I'm not the only one who feels this way, and my deicision is to not watch the run and in some cases I avoid the runner entirely over such personal view.

Just because a game is heavily RNG does not make it unspeedrunnable or that speedruns of it are invalid. Yes getting a run of a game is unreliable because RNG can swing times upwards of 20-25% away from a Personal Best. If the game includes that randomization, then it can be runnable. I know Pokemon Randomizers are big on SRL, but as long as everyone uses the same seed its raceable. Blinding of Issac has a strong racing community even though its heavily RNG and you cannot give both players the same seed. One of the games I currently run (Jumping Flash) has 1 boss where times can very from 35-50 seconds based on luck, and you fight him twice for the catagory I'm practicing (I can't get the console and a recording medium together for awhile sadly) for means a run can be rejected on the basis that I got hosed on special weapons. One of my friends and I have watched the Japanese rogue like Fushigi no Dungeon for a few hours and those while random are incredibly entertaining and is constantly ran 24/7 in Japan.

Clue is one of those speedruns on SDA that was done for a laugh, the fact someone improved it from 4s to 1s based on console means that people will reset just to get that finished product. Flash Columns on 2 height (lowest) has a 1/6 * 3/(4 thru 6) chance of being able to 1 piece clear the entire level. I laughed when I found out you can 1 piece clear the low flash columns levels. Its a laugh, but I'd never put it on sda.

At this point your just arguing semantics over what you consider a speedrun and what people can run. My personal view is that sports games, music games, auto scrollers, and managing sim games (I'm looking at you IdolM@ster, not sim city) are games I wouldn't consider runnable. The games are either fixed timing, or theres nothing you can do to effect the run. RPGs are fun to watch, because the experts pull facts and can find improvements while the copiers duplicate without reason meaning they are less likely to be reactive to changes. I just can't watch RPG speedrunners who copy a route and if asked facts they go "the WR does it, so I do it as well." Also on my list are games that are constantly patched/updated like Dota/LoL in which a patch is frequent and irreversible. I know Always Online is effecting this for games like SC2/D3 and Steam releases but developers want to fix games and I can't blame them, even if it closes what people abuse in speedrunning.

People can run whatever they want, but not every will look upon what your running in the same light. I like Idolm@ster as a game, but as a speedrun I don't see any value. My view wont change, I'm not the only one who feels this way, and my deicision is to not watch the run and in some cases I avoid the runner entirely over such personal view.

Blubbler

Edit history:

Blubbler: 2013-04-23 03:30:24 am

2013-04-23 03:29:57 am

There's a chance >0 you solve Minesweeper with a single click. Anyone could beat Kamil Muranski's times.

garik16

2013-04-23 08:24:05 am

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

But knowledge isn't skill within a game.

I don't get why there are exceptions where knowledge is a skill. If knowledge isn't a skill in pokemon, then competitive battling in pokemon takes no skill at all since it's purely knowledge and predictions. Even in more execution-based games, if you don't know about current routes or optimizations, then you are worse at the game than someone with equal execution as you, but with more up-to-date knowledge. I don't see what the difference is between knowledge in starcraft and knowledge in, say, final fantasy or pokemon.

What I mean is knowledge isn't a skill on its own. Having knowledge doesn't mean you have skill. Its what you do with that knowledge that makes it a skill. With games like Pokemon and Starcraft the decision making and execution you do in conjunction with the knowledge makes it a skill. Knowledge alone surmounts to nothing. And knowledge in a game which doesn't take much thought, like the game I'm on about, makes it not a skill. So you pick a puppet which can damage an enemy more in Eternal Eyes, that is common sense. When you play Pokemon there are numerous things you have to consider with the knowledge you have.

"If I do X then this person can do Y and Z. So I'll counter with W as it is an effective counter" < This is skill with knowledge. Seen in both Pokemon and Starcraft.

"So my character has 100 health, okay. That's nice information to know." < This is not skill, this is just knowing something. It can only be considered a skill if you can apply it somehow. I know the capitol of France is Paris, that is knowledge. Does that mean I have skill? No. It just means I have knowledge.

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Anybody can learn about a game if they take the time, it takes a good player to nail execution and isn't something so easily learnt as something like which puppet is the best to attack this enemy.

Anyone can get good at a game if they take the time. How is this different than knowing more about a game by spending time with it? The primary reason I'm better than most people at Metroid Fusion is that I have almost a decade of experience speedrunning it; anyone who spends as much or more time than me can get better than me at speedrunning that game. I also learned a lot about Metroid Fusion just from playing it that much. Getting good at at execution, or obtaining knowledge, both develop from taking time by playing the game and watching speedruns.

Of course, but saying knowledge means you have skill is just not true. Of course using that knowledge effectively is a skill but knowing and doing are two different things. I could know everything about fishing, that doesn't mean I'm skilled at fishing. If I can't apply what I know then it can't be considered a skill. It is much easier to train myself into knowing everything about fishing than it is to actually do it. There is also a difference between actively applying your knowledge in a real-time scenario compared to just plucking the information you've got and following it. There is nothing in the way of skill when you're just doing something so basic as what is in this game. There are a lot of things you need to consider in games like Pokemon and Starcraft which make knowledge of the games an active skill. Eternal Eyes however would not be so much.

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

I never actually said that, I don't know where people are obtaining that assumption from, lol.

Sorry but if you say something like:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it.

Then I think everyone had the right assumption of you meaning that movement and menuing takes no skill (since menuing is "less-execution based" than hitting enemies)

I understand, but if you read what I said then you would see that I was specifically on about the game in question. It's gameplay mechanics are much more dumbed down than any RPG or RTS game out there right now. To the point that you don't even need proper menuing or movement execution. I guess this is my fault for not wording my sentence more clearly, I apologise.

I think you underrate the skill involved finding out that knowledge - again, routing. My Legaia speedrun has very limited mechanical skill - the slots I'm using are pretty near entirely RNG, my battle strategies are consistent, etc. But to acquire the knowledge to run the game takes a long time - I've spent months to get around 1/3 of the way through to test whether my knowledge is correct. Yes, after I finish someone might be able to copy my tactics entirely to get a similar, or even better run - i admit my skill with movement isn't great on the map resulting in a few inefficiencies here and there, and some of my knowledge may be incorrect - I may be too conservative at times and I don't change certain tactics which might result in being slightly slower.

But to acquire that knowledge is a ton of work, which makes it a credible speed run. Routing on its own is huge and a game where that's a huge part of a speed run is still a very speed runnable game, even if there's very little adaptation/mechanical skill involved once you have the route down.

[quote="CrimsonxxMana"][quote="kirbymastah"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]But knowledge isn't skill within a game.[/quote]

I don't get why there are exceptions where knowledge is a skill. If knowledge isn't a skill in pokemon, then competitive battling in pokemon takes no skill at all since it's purely knowledge and predictions. Even in more execution-based games, if you don't know about current routes or optimizations, then you are worse at the game than someone with equal execution as you, but with more up-to-date knowledge. I don't see what the difference is between knowledge in starcraft and knowledge in, say, final fantasy or pokemon.[/quote]What I mean is knowledge isn't a skill on its own. Having knowledge doesn't mean you have skill. Its what you do with that knowledge that makes it a skill. With games like Pokemon and Starcraft the decision making and execution you do in conjunction with the knowledge makes it a skill. Knowledge alone surmounts to nothing. And knowledge in a game which doesn't take much thought, like the game I'm on about, makes it not a skill. So you pick a puppet which can damage an enemy more in Eternal Eyes, that is common sense. When you play Pokemon there are numerous things you have to consider with the knowledge you have.

"If I do X then this person can do Y and Z. So I'll counter with W as it is an effective counter" < This is skill with knowledge. Seen in both Pokemon and Starcraft.

"So my character has 100 health, okay. That's nice information to know." < This is not skill, this is just knowing something. It can only be considered a skill if you can apply it somehow. I know the capitol of France is Paris, that is knowledge. Does that mean I have skill? No. It just means I have knowledge.[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]Anybody can learn about a game if they take the time, it takes a good player to nail execution and isn't something so easily learnt as something like which puppet is the best to attack this enemy.[/quote]
Anyone can get good at a game if they take the time. How is this different than knowing more about a game by spending time with it? The primary reason I'm better than most people at Metroid Fusion is that I have almost a decade of experience speedrunning it; anyone who spends as much or more time than me can get better than me at speedrunning that game. I also learned a lot about Metroid Fusion just from playing it that much. Getting good at at execution, or obtaining knowledge, both develop from taking time by playing the game and watching speedruns.[/quote]Of course, but saying knowledge means you have skill is just not true. Of course using that knowledge effectively is a skill but knowing and doing are two different things. I could know everything about fishing, that doesn't mean I'm skilled at fishing. If I can't apply what I know then it can't be considered a skill. It is much easier to train myself into knowing everything about fishing than it is to actually do it. There is also a difference between actively applying your knowledge in a real-time scenario compared to just plucking the information you've got and following it. There is nothing in the way of skill when you're just doing something so basic as what is in this game. There are a lot of things you need to consider in games like Pokemon and Starcraft which make knowledge of the games an active skill. Eternal Eyes however would not be so much.[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]I never actually said that, I don't know where people are obtaining that assumption from, lol.[/quote]
Sorry but if you say something like:
[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it. [/quote]
Then I think everyone had the right assumption of you meaning that movement and menuing takes no skill (since menuing is "less-execution based" than hitting enemies)[/quote]I understand, but if you read what I said then you would see that I was specifically on about the game in question. It's gameplay mechanics are much more dumbed down than any RPG or RTS game out there right now. To the point that you don't even need proper menuing or movement execution. I guess this is my fault for not wording my sentence more clearly, I apologise.[/quote]

I think you underrate the skill involved finding out that knowledge - again, routing.  My Legaia speedrun has very limited mechanical skill - the slots I'm using are pretty near entirely RNG, my battle strategies are consistent, etc.  But to acquire the knowledge to run the game takes a long time - I've spent months to get around 1/3 of the way through to test whether my knowledge is correct.  Yes, after I finish someone might be able to copy my tactics entirely to get a similar, or even better run - i admit my skill with movement isn't great on the map resulting in a few inefficiencies here and there, and some of my knowledge may be incorrect - I may be too conservative at times and I don't change certain tactics which might result in being slightly slower.

But to acquire that knowledge is a ton of work, which makes it a credible speed run.  Routing on its own is huge and a game where that's a huge part of a speed run is still a very speed runnable game, even if there's very little adaptation/mechanical skill involved once you have the route down.

Ghostwheel

Edit history:

Ghostwheel: 2013-04-23 03:10:27 pm

2013-04-23 03:09:00 pm

The artist formerly known as Qxy

I don't really understand what the problem is here.

The definition of a speedrun is a playthrough of the game that aims for the fastest possible completion time.
-Games beyond timing (without a clearly defined endpoint) cannot be speedrun by this definition. These are the only cases in which the definition doesn't apply. In other cases, it is not a conflict of legitimacy, but a conflict of interest.

-Autoscrolling games CAN be speedrun, but it's kind of like talking about trivial cases in mathematics. A speedrun is isomorphic to a deathless run in most cases, so the whole thing becomes stupid to talk about.

-RNG based games can also be speedrun. Even if a game were completely RNG based, it could even be interesting in theory. This is why a TAS could be more appropriate and fun to watch in this case, as a display of the ridiculous luck. As a mathematician, when i look at an RNG based game, I fix a luck threshold to start out with (different for SS and segmented), calculate the fastest probable route that has this chance of occurring (which for an ENTIRE game of only "dice rolls" is not at all easy, and often requires a multi route plan for SS. This by the way assuming I have all the info on the game, which if don't can make testing a real chore.) Then I take the inverse of the theoretical probability, multiply it by the theoretical time, and see if I love the game enough to waste that much time trying to produce a cool run of it. Maybe my game is bad. Maybe no one wants to watch speedruns of "Dice Rolls: The Game". I myself would probably never actually run it but enjoy the exercise of figuring it out and watching a completed run of someone else doing the same thing. But if I did, I would in fact be speedrunning the game because my goal is TIME. On a side note, how good my run is is actually quantifiable because I can calculate how much luck someone else would need to beat it.

-You are right Crimson, by the way, in that this definition does include intent; you actually have to have to goal to get a fast time. In your Clue example, you did have the intent to speedrun it. You just didn't call it speedrunning. In the case of Clue, the game is very easy to figure out, and that's why people don't talk about it, or there isn't a speedrunning community around it. Who wants to play a solved game? This intent can also be applied retroactively. If I had on file a recorded Clue playthrough that I realized was the fastest possible time, I could call it a speedrun and submit it. This doesn't happen so often, as games like Clue are simple and uninteresting. The good news is that something simple and uninteresting often doesn't get the respect or attention of something layered and complex because most people can tell the difference.

In my opinion, you don't need other's validation to say you've speedrun a game. You do need that, however, if you want to be a popular streamer or youtube user, or if you want a run to be posted on SDA. Oftentimes, a person's motivation for running a game is personal, and just because you have certain ideas about a what an impressive speedrun is doesn't give you the authority to separate the "real" games from the rest. Watch what you want to watch and run what you want to run.

This is probably my last comment here, as I think the good points on both sides have been made pretty clear. Peace out.

P.S. Now I kind of wish I had programming experience so I could make Dice Rolls: The Game. Seems like a real challenge to make fun, but still possible.

I don't really understand what the problem is here.

The definition of a speedrun is a playthrough of the game that aims for the fastest possible completion time.
-Games beyond timing (without a clearly defined endpoint) cannot be speedrun by this definition. These are the only cases in which the definition doesn't apply. In other cases, it is not a conflict of legitimacy, but a conflict of interest.

-Autoscrolling games CAN be speedrun, but it's kind of like talking about trivial cases in mathematics. A speedrun is isomorphic to a deathless run in most cases, so the whole thing becomes stupid to talk about.

-RNG based games can also be speedrun. Even if a game were completely RNG based, it could even be interesting in theory. This is why a TAS could be more appropriate and fun to watch in this case, as a display of the ridiculous luck. As a mathematician, when i look at an RNG based game, I fix a luck threshold to start out with (different for SS and segmented), calculate the fastest probable route that has this chance of occurring (which for an ENTIRE game of only "dice rolls" is not at all easy, and often requires a multi route plan for SS. This by the way assuming I have all the info on the game, which if don't can make testing a real chore.) Then I take the inverse of the theoretical probability, multiply it by the theoretical time, and see if I love the game enough to waste that much time trying to produce a cool run of it. Maybe my game is bad. Maybe no one wants to watch speedruns of "Dice Rolls: The Game". I myself would probably never actually run it but enjoy the exercise of figuring it out and watching a completed run of someone else doing the same thing. But if I did, I would in fact be speedrunning the game because my goal is TIME. On a side note, how good my run is is actually quantifiable because I can calculate how much luck someone else would need to beat it.

-You are right Crimson, by the way, in that this definition does include intent; you actually have to have to goal to get a fast time. In your Clue example, you did have the intent to speedrun it. You just didn't call it speedrunning. In the case of Clue, the game is very easy to figure out, and that's why people don't talk about it, or there isn't a speedrunning community around it. Who wants to play a solved game? This intent can also be applied retroactively. If I had on file a recorded Clue playthrough that I realized was the fastest possible time, I could call it a speedrun and submit it. This doesn't happen so often, as games like Clue are simple and uninteresting. The good news is that something simple and uninteresting often doesn't get the respect or attention of something layered and complex because most people can tell the difference.

In my opinion, you don't need other's validation to say you've speedrun a game. You do need that, however, if you want to be a popular streamer or youtube user, or if you want a run to be posted on SDA. Oftentimes, a person's motivation for running a game is personal, and just because you have certain ideas about a what an impressive speedrun is doesn't give you the authority to separate the "real" games from the rest. Watch what you want to watch and run what you want to run.

This is probably my last comment here, as I think the good points on both sides have been made pretty clear. Peace out.

P.S. Now I kind of wish I had programming experience so I could make Dice Rolls: The Game. Seems like a real challenge to make fun, but still possible.

Alko

2013-04-23 03:38:00 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

I thought I'ld just point out another game that is near 100 % RNG dependant: Final Fantasy IX.
I'ld say 49 % of the 'skill' required to get a record time is not getting into a random encounter (which, in that game, are truly random), another 49 % is relying on damage luck (which is random within certain limits) and the final 2 % are walking/menuing/stutter stepping and enemies not doing the one move that will game over you. Note that I'm not even considering Mage Masher stealing here, because I assume a reset at that early stage of a run.
FFIX also has an active community and is speedran often, despite being RNG hell.

Melodia

2013-04-24 12:05:10 am

I admit it's just from watching, but it seems to me FFIX has a lot of menu work that needs to be done well, not to mention the 'studder step', so I think you're quite understating the skill involved in running it....but again this is just observation from watching (and having played the game a couple times)

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-04-25 08:38:48 am

Yagamoth: 2013-04-24 05:49:09 am

Yagamoth: 2013-04-24 05:48:55 am

2013-04-24 05:43:17 am

INTJ

Editing in something later

Not a proper response:

I'm sorry for being unrelated, but can Roller Coaster Tycoon be speedrun? Think about all those wonderfully wonky strategies that could be created..
Reason: https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7372004608/h2A0F1A0B/

^
Again, sorry for being probably completely out of context, I'll make sure to create a proper response once I'm home. Just had to drop that in here Wink

Edit: I actually thought about responding to the argument, but I decide against it. Ultimately it seems to be mostly about semantics and opinions. Also I don't intend to reheat the argument ^^

Overall my thoughts are simple - if the resulting video shows faster than normal play (or more like, shortening the time spent on ingame-tasks to the minimum) it is a Speedrun in MY book.

Hsanrb

2013-04-24 05:46:01 am

Quote from Yagamoth:

I'm sorry for being unrelated, but can Roller Coaster Tycoon be speedrun? Think about all those wonderfully wonky strategies that could be created..
Reason: https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7372004608/h2A0F1A0B/

^
Again, sorry for being probably completely out of context, I'll make sure to create a proper response once I'm home. Just had to drop that in here Wink

Is there an end goal or missions (like reach a * rating, or pay your debt back in X years). Can you speed up time? I know someone was working on a Theme Park run and Sim City was done so you should be ok. Sim Tower with/without the money glitch might be interesting as well.

garik16

2013-04-24 09:56:52 am

Quote from Hsanrb:

Quote from Yagamoth:

I'm sorry for being unrelated, but can Roller Coaster Tycoon be speedrun? Think about all those wonderfully wonky strategies that could be created..
Reason: https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7372004608/h2A0F1A0B/

^
Again, sorry for being probably completely out of context, I'll make sure to create a proper response once I'm home. Just had to drop that in here Wink

Is there an end goal or missions (like reach a * rating, or pay your debt back in X years). Can you speed up time? I know someone was working on a Theme Park run and Sim City was done so you should be ok. Sim Tower with/without the money glitch might be interesting as well.

IIRC, the original Roller Coaster Tycoon had objectives for each park location in sort of a campaign, no? I recall having great fun with that.....checking the wiki:

Quote:

To complete a scenario and unlock a new one, a certain objective must be met by the player. For most scenarios, the objective is to have a minimum number of guests by the scenario's deadline of one to four years. Years in the game are only eight months long; from the start of March to the end of October (mirroring the seasons real-life theme parks are in operation, except in the southern hemisphere). On some scenarios, the player is also required to raise the park value above a certain level by building roller coasters and other rides and maintaining the park well.

In this case, the answer is probably not - if you don't get to advance once achieving the goal, but only if you have achieved it after x amount of years, the game is essentially an autoscroller. Just an incredibly fun one.

[quote="Hsanrb"][quote="Yagamoth"]I'm sorry for being unrelated, but can Roller Coaster Tycoon be speedrun? Think about all those wonderfully wonky strategies that could be created..
Reason: https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7372004608/h2A0F1A0B/

^
Again, sorry for being probably completely out of context, I'll make sure to create a proper response once I'm home. Just had to drop that in here ;)[/quote]

Is there an end goal or missions (like reach a * rating, or pay your debt back in X years). Can you speed up time? I know someone was working on a Theme Park run and Sim City was done so you should be ok. Sim Tower with/without the money glitch might be interesting as well.[/quote]

IIRC, the original Roller Coaster Tycoon had objectives for each park location in sort of a campaign, no?  I recall having great fun with that.....checking the wiki:
[quote]
To complete a scenario and unlock a new one, a certain objective must be met by the player. For most scenarios, the objective is to have a minimum number of guests by the scenario's deadline of one to four years. Years in the game are only eight months long; from the start of March to the end of October (mirroring the seasons real-life theme parks are in operation, except in the southern hemisphere). On some scenarios, the player is also required to raise the park value above a certain level by building roller coasters and other rides and maintaining the park well.[/quote]

In this case, the answer is probably not - if you don't get to advance once achieving the goal, but only if you have achieved it after x amount of years, the game is essentially an autoscroller.  Just an incredibly fun one.

Melodia

2013-04-24 11:59:09 am

RCT3 at least has more concrete goals that I'm pretty sure (I'd have to check) don't involve time, like "x number of guests in the part, 2 coasters over 7 exceitement" and stuff like that. There's three difficulty levels, tiered in as it were (so it might be like 500 guests and 1 coaster on the first, and 1200 guests and 2 coasters on the third....or whatever....they aren't always related)

Hsanrb

2013-04-24 03:39:52 pm

Quote from garik16:

Quote:

To complete a scenario and unlock a new one, a certain objective must be met by the player. For most scenarios, the objective is to have a minimum number of guests by the scenario's deadline of one to four years. Years in the game are only eight months long; from the start of March to the end of October (mirroring the seasons real-life theme parks are in operation, except in the southern hemisphere). On some scenarios, the player is also required to raise the park value above a certain level by building roller coasters and other rides and maintaining the park well.

In this case, the answer is probably not - if you don't get to advance once achieving the goal, but only if you have achieved it after x amount of years, the game is essentially an autoscroller. Just an incredibly fun one.

The run would be measured in real time, so if a fast forward function is available then yes it can be ran. If theres only one speed the game can run at then no you can't. Theme Park you can only sell the park at the end of the year IF
1) Your park value at minimum bid gives you enough $ to buy another park
2) Your initial Lease has expired

Since fast forward is included in the game a run could be submitted. Remember the game at faster speeds means you gotta repair those rides just as fast.

[quote="garik16"]
[quote]
To complete a scenario and unlock a new one, a certain objective must be met by the player. For most scenarios, the objective is to have a minimum number of guests by the scenario's deadline of one to four years. Years in the game are only eight months long; from the start of March to the end of October (mirroring the seasons real-life theme parks are in operation, except in the southern hemisphere). On some scenarios, the player is also required to raise the park value above a certain level by building roller coasters and other rides and maintaining the park well.[/quote]

In this case, the answer is probably not - if you don't get to advance once achieving the goal, but only if you have achieved it after x amount of years, the game is essentially an autoscroller.  Just an incredibly fun one.[/quote]

The run would be measured in real time, so if a fast forward function is available then yes it can be ran. If theres only one speed the game can run at then no you can't. Theme Park you can only sell the park at the end of the year IF
1) Your park value at minimum bid gives you enough $ to buy another park
2) Your initial Lease has expired

Since fast forward is included in the game a run could be submitted. Remember the game at faster speeds means you gotta repair those rides just as fast.