Can any game be speedrun?

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-04-21 09:54:27 am

2013-04-21 09:54:11 am

HELLO!

Yup. The thing is, the more optimized a game gets in execution and routing, the more RNG will become the deciding factor in any game with random elements.

ZenicReverie

2013-04-21 10:07:08 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

I just find it hard to consider heavy RNG games as games that can speedrun. In my opinion there are just too many uncertainties to warrant the run as a speedrun. Especially if we're talking about it being consistent. If you had the worst RNG in the game which lost you tons of time but your execution is flawless can you really call that a "speed"run? I have no problem with games that require you to improvise on top of the RNG to make up for the time, those games are perfectly fine. But games where the RNG literally is a permanent loss on time no matter what you do is in my books not a game that can be speedrun. I feel a speedrun should be something that is quantifiable in every run you do. Not just those runs where you have that "1 in a million" chance of having really good RNG.

Take for example, a card game, about the most RNG heavy game I can think of at the moment. Would you not call the run of Pokemon: TCG a speedrun?

Here are my thoughts. A speedrun is some combination of player skill, execution, and RNG. Player skill includes handling of controls, making decisions on the fly, and planning for the run. Execution is a measure of how player skill influences the run. Consequently, only when execution doesn't change with player skill is a game unspeedrunable in the eyes of SDA. There is an exception to every rule though, and that's for heavily RNG influenced games where exceptional luck can end a game quickly. (Clue obviously, but if someone wanted to repeat the King's Bounty TAS, I'm sure that would go up.)

RNG is the random element inherent in almost every game. Games from 0 - 100% randomization are runnable; consider a puzzle game like the recently posted Pushover to something like Minesweeper. To me, both are impressive and offer an added enjoyment to those interested in the game. Whether Minesweeper were a less than a minute game as it is now, or a 20 hour long RPG, I don't think mitigating the risks introduced by the RNG by great planning and understanding of the mechanics that drive the game is any less impressive.

[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]I just find it hard to consider heavy RNG games as games that can speedrun. In my opinion there are just too many uncertainties to warrant the run as a speedrun. Especially if we're talking about it being consistent. If you had the worst RNG in the game which lost you tons of time but your execution is flawless can you really call that a "speed"run? I have no problem with games that require you to improvise on top of the RNG to make up for the time, those games are perfectly fine. But games where the RNG literally is a permanent loss on time no matter what you do is in my books not a game that can be speedrun. I feel a speedrun should be something that is quantifiable in every run you do. Not just those runs where you have that "1 in a million" chance of having really good RNG.[/quote]
Take for example, a card game, about the most RNG heavy game I can think of at the moment. Would you not call the run of Pokemon: TCG a speedrun?

Here are my thoughts. A speedrun is some combination of player skill, execution, and RNG. Player skill includes handling of controls, making decisions on the fly, and planning for the run. Execution is a measure of how player skill influences the run. Consequently, only when execution doesn't change with player skill is a game unspeedrunable in the eyes of SDA. There is an exception to every rule though, and that's for heavily RNG influenced games where exceptional luck can end a game quickly. (Clue obviously, but if someone wanted to repeat the King's Bounty TAS, I'm sure that would go up.)

RNG is the random element inherent in almost every game. Games from 0 - 100% randomization are runnable; consider a puzzle game like the recently posted Pushover to something like Minesweeper. To me, both are impressive and offer an added enjoyment to those interested in the game. Whether Minesweeper were a less than a minute game as it is now, or a 20 hour long RPG, I don't think mitigating the risks introduced by the RNG by great planning and understanding of the mechanics that drive the game is any less impressive.

Ghostwheel

2013-04-21 10:13:03 am

The artist formerly known as Qxy

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

If you had the worst RNG in the game which lost you tons of time but your execution is flawless can you really call that a "speed"run?

Yes. It's not a record run, but it doesn't have to be to be considered a speedrun. Some of my runs with the worst possible luck are faster than most people's personal bests, and every speedrun I do is faster than a normal playthrough from an experienced player. Just because only a run with acceptable luck will make it to SDA doesn't invalidate my other attempts or make them less legitimate as speedruns.

Rakuen

2013-04-21 12:00:26 pm

Weegee Time

A bad RNG with good execution can beat a good RNG with poor execution.
A good RNG with poor execution can beat a bad RNG with good execution.

These are risks you must accept if you intend to speedrun a game with the intention of being "the best". Don't play the game if you can't accept the risk. Your not playing doesn't lessen the legitimacy of others who choose to play.

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-21 12:15:15 pm

Quote from Rakuen:

A bad RNG with good execution can beat a good RNG with poor execution.
A good RNG with poor execution can beat a bad RNG with good execution.

These are risks you must accept if you intend to speedrun a game with the intention of being "the best". Don't play the game if you can't accept the risk. Your not playing doesn't lessen the legitimacy of others who choose to play.

I have no problem running a game which has some RNG. But for myself I refuse to run a game where my run can be cheapened due to the RNG. You can have the best quality run in the world when it comes to execution but if the RNG is terrible it makes the quality of the run look cheap in my eyes when it clearly isn't, the person just had bad luck. I'm just not happy seeing a run go down the pan because, for instance, some AI does the same thing over and over again without any way of stopping them and it just whittles away at your time. That is just my opinion though, I'm not saying people aren't free to try. I just honestly don't see how they can be classified as legitimate speedruns considering, if 80% of the game is RNG, that 80% isn't to do with speed at all but rather luck. I wouldn't feel very accomplished if the game helped me obtain my time due to the RNG, at least not by such a margin. It would basically be saying I spedrun the 20% of the game I have control over, the rest of the time is up to the games RNG. It just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure there are many who disagree however, but again, its my choice.

[quote="Rakuen"]A bad RNG with good execution can beat a good RNG with poor execution.  
A good RNG with poor execution can beat a bad RNG with good execution.

These are risks you [i]must[/i] accept if you intend to speedrun a game with the intention of being "[i]the best[/i]".  Don't play the game if you can't accept the risk.  Your not playing doesn't lessen the legitimacy of others who choose to play.[/quote]I have no problem running a game which has some RNG. But for myself I refuse to run a game where my run can be cheapened due to the RNG. You can have the best quality run in the world when it comes to execution but if the RNG is terrible it makes the quality of the run look cheap in my eyes when it clearly isn't, the person just had bad luck. I'm just not happy seeing a run go down the pan because, for instance, some AI does the same thing over and over again without any way of stopping them and it just whittles away at your time. That is just my opinion though, I'm not saying people aren't free to try. I just honestly don't see how they can be classified as legitimate speedruns considering, if 80% of the game is RNG, that 80% isn't to do with speed at all but rather luck. I wouldn't feel very accomplished if the game helped me obtain my time due to the RNG, at least not by such a margin. It would basically be saying I spedrun the 20% of the game I have control over, the rest of the time is up to the games RNG. It just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure there are many who disagree however, but again, its my choice.

ZenicReverie

2013-04-21 01:14:15 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

I'm sure that's why it takes longer to get good runs on games with a high density of randomness. To each there own though, and saying the runs aren't legitimate speedruns is your opinion, but I don't see any validity to the argument. It's still a speedrun, whether it's impressive to you or not is once again your opinion and up to interpretation.

I have no name

2013-04-21 01:57:53 pm

Obscure games ftw

Ape Escape has a crapton of RNG. There's one person who has put less time into the game than me but has better times in all categories due to much better RNG. Sure it annoys me, but I'm going to keep banging out runs until I end up with that one run with great execution and great luck.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-21 05:49:49 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-21 05:47:18 pm

2013-04-21 05:36:06 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote:

Your not playing doesn't lessen the legitimacy of others who choose to play.

Also, something one of my friends said with regards to "skill" (I strongly disagree with it, and I think most of you will) after seeing me watch werster's stream:

Pokemon doesn't take any skill at all. Someone who watches werster's stream 24/7 and (theoretically) memorizes every strategy he does, every improvisation he makes, and every tiny action he does, can theoretically do a pokemon run and get exactly the same time as him, without regards to having to get used to the controls nor having to practice at all, because the person who watched werster knows the game as well as him. Thus it takes no skill since there is never a need to practice nor gain any experience with playing the series.

Dalimyr

2013-04-21 07:52:39 pm

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

But for myself I refuse to run a game where my run can be cheapened due to the RNG.

I was going to ask you if your argument was all hypothetical or if you actually had some games in mind that you felt were 'cheapened' by their RNG...then I saw this line which suggests it's probably the latter. So what sorts of games are you refusing to run because of how the RNG affects them?

presjpolk

2013-04-21 09:25:27 pm

HELLO!

Re: kirbymastah: Routing is itself a skill. And I'd say some are better at it than others.

Melodia

2013-04-22 12:17:28 am

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

But for myself I refuse to run a game where my run can be cheapened due to the RNG. You can have the best quality run in the world when it comes to execution but if the RNG is terrible it makes the quality of the run look cheap in my eyes when it clearly isn't, the person just had bad luck. I'm just not happy seeing a run go down the pan because, for instance, some AI does the same thing over and over again without any way of stopping them and it just whittles away at your time. That is just my opinion though, I'm not saying people aren't free to try. I just honestly don't see how they can be classified as legitimate speedruns considering, if 80% of the game is RNG, that 80% isn't to do with speed at all but rather luck. I wouldn't feel very accomplished if the game helped me obtain my time due to the RNG, at least not by such a margin. It would basically be saying I spedrun the 20% of the game I have control over, the rest of the time is up to the games RNG. It just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure there are many who disagree however, but again, its my choice.

Weeeeeeeeellll....

People like different things. I've seen people play 'challenge' games where they'll play a battle 200 times just to get that 4% hit followed by a 3.1% hit. The challege for them was, first, figureing out what actually would work, and then having the patience to execute it. Others would rather just spend hours making their game 'perfect' by grinding and collecting and whatever.
So yes, maybe you wouldn't want to play a game with that much RNG....others would take the challenge head on.

[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]
 But for myself I refuse to run a game where my run can be cheapened due to the RNG. You can have the best quality run in the world when it comes to execution but if the RNG is terrible it makes the quality of the run look cheap in my eyes when it clearly isn't, the person just had bad luck. I'm just not happy seeing a run go down the pan because, for instance, some AI does the same thing over and over again without any way of stopping them and it just whittles away at your time. That is just my opinion though, I'm not saying people aren't free to try. I just honestly don't see how they can be classified as legitimate speedruns considering, if 80% of the game is RNG, that 80% isn't to do with speed at all but rather luck. I wouldn't feel very accomplished if the game helped me obtain my time due to the RNG, at least not by such a margin. It would basically be saying I spedrun the 20% of the game I have control over, the rest of the time is up to the games RNG. It just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure there are many who disagree however, but again, its my choice.[/quote]

Weeeeeeeeellll....

People like different things. I've seen people play 'challenge' games where they'll play a battle 200 times just to get that 4% hit followed by a 3.1% hit. The challege for them was, first, figureing out what actually would work, and then having the patience to execute it. Others would rather just spend hours making their game 'perfect' by grinding and collecting and whatever.
So yes, maybe you wouldn't want to play a game with that much RNG....others would take the challenge head on.

CrimsonxxMana

Edit history:

CrimsonxxMana: 2013-04-22 09:40:35 am

2013-04-22 09:35:14 am

Quote from Dalimyr:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

But for myself I refuse to run a game where my run can be cheapened due to the RNG.

I was going to ask you if your argument was all hypothetical or if you actually had some games in mind that you felt were 'cheapened' by their RNG...then I saw this line which suggests it's probably the latter. So what sorts of games are you refusing to run because of how the RNG affects them?

One game off the top of my head which I was planning to route until I found out it's basically an RNG-fest is Eternal Eyes. Its a great game to play through and I enjoy it by itself. But there is no way to speedrun it. Each level of the game, as its broken down into floors which you need to advance along, has random loot, random enemies, random spawns and I haven't fully checked this but I believe stats on enemies may be random too. I might be wrong about that last one. Effectively the game revolves around you collecting gems to upgrade your puppets and their magic powers.

But you may play a level of the game where you don't get a single gem. Also each puppet has a specific gem pattern they need used on them which will evolve them to the next level of puppet. Gems also give the puppets new magic powers or give them stats boosts. I'm pretty sure the magic powers or stats boosts are fairly consistent. I don't believe stats for the puppets are RNG based when you create them or evolve them to the next form. This game basically requires you to level your puppets with the gems to get the best magic's for them. However with each puppets having 5 evolution stages, all of which need up to 4 specific gem colours in order to achieve the next evolution makes it nearly impossible to get the puppet you want. Each puppet has 2 paths you can go down, but the possible magic powers varies from puppet to puppet so choosing the right puppet is really a necessary thing if you want certain powerful magic spells.

In fact, the only thing you can safely rely on which you have control over yourself to possibly push you further in the game is purchasing gear. But gear is pretty sparse unless you grind to get money to buy it and I wouldn't say that you need the gear in running the game as the benefits are hardly massive. At least from what I've seen.

[quote="Dalimyr"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]But for myself I refuse to run a game where my run can be cheapened due to the RNG.[/quote]I was going to ask you if your argument was all hypothetical or if you actually had some games in mind that you felt were 'cheapened' by their RNG...then I saw this line which suggests it's probably the latter. So what sorts of games are you refusing to run because of how the RNG affects them?[/quote]One game off the top of my head which I was planning to route until I found out it's basically an RNG-fest is Eternal Eyes. Its a great game to play through and I enjoy it by itself. But there is no way to speedrun it. Each level of the game, as its broken down into floors which you need to advance along, has random loot, random enemies, random spawns and I haven't fully checked this but I believe stats on enemies may be random too. I might be wrong about that last one. Effectively the game revolves around you collecting gems to upgrade your puppets and their magic powers.

But you may play a level of the game where you don't get a single gem. Also each puppet has a specific gem pattern they need used on them which will evolve them to the next level of puppet. Gems also give the puppets new magic powers or give them stats boosts. I'm pretty sure the magic powers or stats boosts are fairly consistent. I don't believe stats for the puppets are RNG based when you create them or evolve them to the next form. This game basically requires you to level your puppets with the gems to get the best magic's for them. However with each puppets having 5 evolution stages, all of which need up to 4 specific gem colours in order to achieve the next evolution makes it nearly impossible to get the puppet you want. Each puppet has 2 paths you can go down, but the possible magic powers varies from puppet to puppet so choosing the right puppet is really a necessary thing if you want certain powerful magic spells.

In fact, the only thing you can safely rely on which you have control over yourself to possibly push you further in the game is purchasing gear. But gear is pretty sparse unless you grind to get money to buy it and I wouldn't say that you need the gear in running the game as the benefits are hardly massive. At least from what I've seen.

ZenicReverie

2013-04-22 09:43:41 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Sounds like a game that's better segmented then.

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-22 11:05:51 am

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Sounds like a game that's better segmented then.

How would you quantify a segmented run with 169 puppets? What about gear for your character and the puppets? Do you continue the next segment with the same puppets? Because if so it isn't going to be any different than trying to do a SS run. Would the person have to reset each time if they didn't get what they needed from the enemies to further increase your puppets evolution? For a full traversal of each of the puppets evolutions you need 11 varying jewels depending on what puppet you have and what tree you go down. You are allowed 2 puppets so that means 22 jewels for max evolutions on both puppets. That is also not including any extra gems you need to use to get the better magic skills or stats you feel you need from the jewels. There are a few problems with getting a perfect time on any level:

A. You might have terrible enemy spawns which make you waste precious time as the game is turn-based and you will have to traverse to your opponents to which could take several turns.
B. The enemies are random, if you want to kill them as quickly as possible you'll have to pair up their weaknesses with your puppets.
C. Its possible the enemies you are given don't have weaknesses to the puppets you are using. Which means damage is lower which hurts your time.
D. The enemy AI can be pretty unpredictable at times, they might run away from you or come in guns blazing. You also aren't guaranteed that they'll leave your loot alone. If one of them attacks a chest you lose that loot. If you attack the chest then you gain the loot but loose the use of that character for that turn.
E. Chest loot is unpredictable meaning you may not get the jewels you're after. I believe its possible to not get a single jewel while doing a level. You typically want 2 or more gems per level which will be beneficial to your puppets.

^All of these RNG based elements are problems with trying to speedrun the game in any sense. You can't guarantee any of them. And its more than likely you won't get good RNG on them all. No matter how many 1,000's of attempts you do.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]Sounds like a game that's better segmented then.[/quote]How would you quantify a segmented run with 169 puppets? What about gear for your character and the puppets? Do you continue the next segment with the same puppets? Because if so it isn't going to be any different than trying to do a SS run. Would the person have to reset each time if they didn't get what they needed from the enemies to further increase your puppets evolution? For a full traversal of each of the puppets evolutions you need 11 varying jewels depending on what puppet you have and what tree you go down. You are allowed 2 puppets so that means 22 jewels for max evolutions on both puppets. That is also not including any extra gems you need to use to get the better magic skills or stats you feel you need from the jewels. There are a few problems with getting a perfect time on any level:

A. You might have terrible enemy spawns which make you waste precious time as the game is turn-based and you will have to traverse to your opponents to which could take several turns.
B. The enemies are random, if you want to kill them as quickly as possible you'll have to pair up their weaknesses with your puppets.
C. Its possible the enemies you are given don't have weaknesses to the puppets you are using. Which means damage is lower which hurts your time.
D. The enemy AI can be pretty unpredictable at times, they might run away from you or come in guns blazing. You also aren't guaranteed that they'll leave your loot alone. If one of them attacks a chest you lose that loot. If you attack the chest then you gain the loot but loose the use of that character for that turn.
E. Chest loot is unpredictable meaning you may not get the jewels you're after. I believe its possible to not get a single jewel while doing a level. You typically want 2 or more gems per level which will be beneficial to your puppets.

^All of these RNG based elements are problems with trying to speedrun the game in any sense. You can't guarantee any of them. And its more than likely you won't get good RNG on them all. No matter how many 1,000's of attempts you do.

kirbymastah

2013-04-22 11:43:32 am

<(^_^)>

There are speedruns of games with over 100 segments. Just FYI

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-22 12:24:01 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

There are speedruns of games with over 100 segments. Just FYI

I'm aware, the game I'm talking about would only have about 61 segments. Considering all the things that can go wrong purely down to how much RNG there is though good luck ever finishing the game this year if you are going to try and get each segment with perfect RNG on all the problems I presented.

Ghostwheel

2013-04-22 12:56:44 pm

The artist formerly known as Qxy

They way I see it, this only makes the speedrun more impressive and legitimate.

From what you describe, it would take a skilled and dedicated player to choose one path out of what seems to be thousands of different possible scenarios, and then reset for the luck they would need. You would have to have the highest level of knowledge to understand the best possible route, and the consistency threshold for getting it. And a segmented run doesn't need to be TAS. I'm also planning a segmented CoM run(and have done segmented runs of other games), and I make very small time concessions in the route to avoid resetting for months over something like a single random 5 card pack of attack cards. If someone else is willing to do that, then good job, you got me, assuming that you emulated me perfectly everywhere else.

You keep talking about "quantifying" a run, as if you are trying to extract a skill value for a particular display. Skill is by nature qualitative, and has a quantitative projection in that it affects the time of the run in a very direct way. As speedrunners, in general the time of the run is our principal quantitative measure.

They way I see it, this only makes the speedrun more impressive and legitimate.

From what you describe, it would take a skilled and dedicated player to choose one path out of what seems to be thousands of different possible scenarios, and then reset for the luck they would need. You would have to have the highest level of knowledge to understand the best possible route, and the consistency threshold for getting it. And a segmented run doesn't need to be TAS. I'm also planning a segmented CoM run(and have done segmented runs of other games), and I make very small time concessions in the route to avoid resetting for months over something like a single random 5 card pack of attack cards. If someone else is willing to do that, then good job, you got me, assuming that you emulated me perfectly everywhere else.

You keep talking about "quantifying" a run, as if you are trying to extract a skill value for a particular display. Skill is by nature qualitative, and has a quantitative projection in that it affects the time of the run in a very direct way. As speedrunners, in general the time of the run is our principal quantitative measure.

CrimsonxxMana

Edit history:

CrimsonxxMana: 2013-04-22 01:18:20 pm

2013-04-22 01:14:36 pm

Quote from Ghostwheel:

They way I see it, this only makes the speedrun more impressive and legitimate.

From what you describe, it would take a skilled and dedicated player to choose one path out of what seems to be thousands of different possible scenarios, and then reset for the luck they would need. You would have to have the highest level of knowledge to understand the best possible route, and the consistency threshold for getting it. And a segmented run doesn't need to be TAS. I'm also planning a segmented CoM run(and have done segmented runs of other games), and I make very small time concessions in the route to avoid resetting for months over something like a single random 5 card pack of attack cards. If someone else is willing to do that, then good job, you got me, assuming that you emulated me perfectly everywhere else.

You keep talking about "quantifying" a run, as if you are trying to extract a skill value for a particular display. Skill is by nature qualitative, and has a quantitative projection in that it affects the time of the run in a very direct way. As speedrunners, in general the time of the run is our principal quantitative measure.

Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it. There really is no depth to the game. You can output more damage by knowing what magic damages the enemy the most, but that is it. And there aren't really thousands of different possible scenarios. Certain puppets are just extremely better than others. If you do go down a route, you have to stick to it. In the 61 segments you need 22 jewels just for evolutions; plus the extra jewels to get the most powerful magic's. You need perfect spawn positions, enemies which are damaged by your puppets more than the other possible ones that can spawn. Good AI from the enemies as to not waste your time. And good loot which will give you those jewels you need. The only thing you really need for this game is the knowledge of the game to understand how you're going to tackle the levels. There is not really any skill needed in the actual run.

[quote="Ghostwheel"]They way I see it, this only makes the speedrun more impressive and legitimate.

From what you describe, it would take a skilled and dedicated player to choose one path out of what seems to be thousands of different possible scenarios, and then reset for the luck they would need. You would have to have the highest level of knowledge to understand the best possible route, and the consistency threshold for getting it. And a segmented run doesn't need to be TAS. I'm also planning a segmented CoM run(and have done segmented runs of other games), and I make very small time concessions in the route to avoid resetting for months over something like a single random 5 card pack of attack cards. If someone else is willing to do that, then good job, you got me, assuming that you emulated me perfectly everywhere else.

You keep talking about "quantifying" a run, as if you are trying to extract a skill value for a particular display. Skill is by nature qualitative, and has a quantitative projection in that it affects the time of the run in a very direct way. As speedrunners, in general the time of the run is our principal quantitative measure.[/quote]Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it. There really is no depth to the game. You can output more damage by knowing what magic damages the enemy the most, but that is it. And there aren't really thousands of different possible scenarios. Certain puppets are just extremely better than others. If you do go down a route, you have to stick to it. In the 61 segments you need 22 jewels just for evolutions; plus the extra jewels to get the most powerful magic's. You need perfect spawn positions, enemies which are damaged by your puppets more than the other possible ones that can spawn. Good AI from the enemies as to not waste your time. And good loot which will give you those jewels you need. The only thing you really need for this game is the knowledge of the game to understand how you're going to tackle the levels. There is not really any skill needed in the actual run.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-22 01:35:49 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-22 01:34:48 pm

2013-04-22 01:34:00 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it.

Apparently RPG games have no skill? After all, you just move your character and select menu options. That takes much less skill than hitting an enemy a few times, right?

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

The only thing you really need for this game is the knowledge of the game to understand how you're going to tackle the levels. There is not really any skill needed in the actual run.

Yay knowledge isn't skill at all. I think we already talked about how skill isn't only execution?

I have no name

Edit history:

I have no name: 2013-04-22 01:40:03 pm

2013-04-22 01:38:21 pm

Obscure games ftw

I'm going to chime in again and say I'm doing a segmented speedrun of Labyrinth of Touhou. Here's where the RNG comes into play-there's a lot of it.
a: How frequently you get encounters. The min and max of what I've seen vary by more than the min. No joke. 1F I've seen 11 steps, and 26 steps.
b: What encounter you get. Sure, it's chosen from a pool of ~8 different formations depending on location, but some encounters are objectively better in terms of EXP/SKP and others outspeed your party, wasting time.
c: Drops. I've manipulated a 2% drop so far and I'm not done yet.
d: What move the enemy chooses. You can get hit with a single target attack or an attack that hits your whole party. Or a physical move in the 4th slot to kill your fragile mage. At random.
e: Damage variance. Sometimes you have a move that oneshots every enemy on screen. Sometimes sometihng lives because damage variance.
Additionally the routing, metarouting, leveling paths and actual input sequences are challenging-you try inputting up up Z right Z Z up up Z Z right Z down Z Z quickly.

Overall there's so much randomness in the game, in a lot of cases I can't say "this segment will go exactly like this" and I'll have to roll with whatever I get and improvise. That improvisation comes with playing the game a bunch...and is a skill. Honestly, I'd say running a game with some RNG is more impressive than one without RNG as you can just memorize the inputs for the no-RNG game...right Wink

I'm going to chime in again and say I'm doing a segmented speedrun of Labyrinth of Touhou.  Here's where the RNG comes into play-there's a lot of it.
a: How frequently you get encounters.  The min and max of what I've seen vary by more than the min.  No joke.  1F I've seen 11 steps, and 26 steps.
b: What encounter you get.  Sure, it's chosen from a pool of ~8 different formations depending on location, but some encounters are objectively better in terms of EXP/SKP and others outspeed your party, wasting time.
c: Drops.  I've manipulated a 2% drop so far and I'm not done yet.
d: What move the enemy chooses.  You can get hit with a single target attack or an attack that hits your whole party.  Or a physical move in the 4th slot to kill your fragile mage.  At random.
e: Damage variance.  Sometimes you have a move that oneshots every enemy on screen.  Sometimes sometihng lives because damage variance.
Additionally the routing, metarouting, leveling paths and actual input sequences are challenging-you try inputting up up Z right Z Z up up Z Z right Z down Z Z quickly.

Overall there's so much randomness in the game, in a lot of cases I can't say "this segment will go exactly like this" and I'll have to roll with whatever I get and improvise.  That improvisation comes with playing the game a bunch...and is a skill.  Honestly, I'd say running a game with some RNG is more impressive than one without RNG as you can just memorize the inputs for the no-RNG game...right ;)

presjpolk

2013-04-22 01:41:09 pm

HELLO!

If you think perfect movement and menuing doesn't take skill, I think you haven't done enough movement and menuing in speedrunning.

In Zelda II NG+ Glitch, I'm constantly losing time to Inzult simply because he's better at menuing and spell queuing than I am.

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-22 02:03:27 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it.

Apparently RPG games have no skill? After all, you just move your character and select menu options. That takes much less skill than hitting an enemy a few times, right?

There is a great difference between an RPG which takes strats and has depth and an TBS which offers practically no depth to the combat apart from puppet X doing slightly more damage on enemy Y than puppet Z.

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

The only thing you really need for this game is the knowledge of the game to understand how you're going to tackle the levels. There is not really any skill needed in the actual run.

Yay knowledge isn't skill at all. I think we already talked about how skill isn't only execution?

But knowledge isn't skill within a game. Anybody can learn about a game if they take the time, it takes a good player to nail execution and isn't something so easily learnt as something like which puppet is the best to attack this enemy. There are exceptions where knowledge could be a skill. Such as maybe Starcraft, but its in the execution and decision making of that knowledge that makes it a skill. But Starcraft is a pretty deep game. Eternal Eyes is not. There is no active decision making involved in it in relevance to the knowledge you've acquired and the knowledge doesn't need any sort of execution.

Quote from I have no name:

Overall there's so much randomness in the game, in a lot of cases I can't say "this segment will go exactly like this" and I'll have to roll with whatever I get and improvise. That improvisation comes with playing the game a bunch...and is a skill. Honestly, I'd say running a game with some RNG is more impressive than one without RNG as you can just memorize the inputs for the no-RNG game...right Wink

Well that simply isn't the case with this game. If you want an effective run then you have to stick with whatever route you've chosen to get the most effective results. You can't just say "Ah! That didn't go as I expected but I'll have to roll with it and improvise." There is simply no room for improvising. You either do this and that or just reset. I'd say running a game with "some RNG" is more impressive than one without RNG as its impressive to see what certain runners come up with to try and keep their run on track. But it is not impressive to see a person running a game with "a lot" of RNG where its basically all that makes up the game.

Quote from presjpolk:

If you think perfect movement and menuing doesn't take skill, I think you haven't done enough movement and menuing in speedrunning.

In Zelda II NG+ Glitch, I'm constantly losing time to Inzult simply because he's better at menuing and spell queuing than I am.

I never actually said that, I don't know where people are obtaining that assumption from, lol. In Eternal Eyes its simply tile based movement which doesn't surmount to anything at all. There is no skill in moving towards your enemies to attack them in this TBS, and there is nothing that can be done about the way the AI for the enemies respond either. Also as far as menuing goes its just "click the same skill over and over again." In this game its something nobody should be losing time over.

[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it. [/quote]

Apparently RPG games have no skill? After all, you just move your character and select menu options. That takes much less skill than hitting an enemy a few times, right?[/quote]There is a great difference between an RPG which takes strats and has depth and an TBS which offers practically no depth to the combat apart from puppet X doing slightly more damage on enemy Y than puppet Z.

[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]The only thing you really need for this game is the knowledge of the game to understand how you're going to tackle the levels. There is not really any skill needed in the actual run.[/quote]

Yay knowledge isn't skill at all. I think we already talked about how skill isn't only execution?[/quote]But knowledge isn't skill within a game. Anybody can learn about a game if they take the time, it takes a good player to nail execution and isn't something so easily learnt as something like which puppet is the best to attack this enemy. There are exceptions where knowledge could be a skill. Such as maybe Starcraft, but its in the execution and decision making of that knowledge that makes it a skill. But Starcraft is a pretty deep game. Eternal Eyes is not. There is no active decision making involved in it in relevance to the knowledge you've acquired and the knowledge doesn't need any sort of execution.[quote="I have no name"]Overall there's so much randomness in the game, in a lot of cases I can't say "this segment will go exactly like this" and I'll have to roll with whatever I get and improvise. That improvisation comes with playing the game a bunch...and is a skill.  Honestly, I'd say running a game with some RNG is more impressive than one without RNG as you can just memorize the inputs for the no-RNG game...right ;)[/quote]Well that simply isn't the case with this game. If you want an effective run then you have to stick with whatever route you've chosen to get the most effective results. You can't just say "Ah! That didn't go as I expected but I'll have to roll with it and improvise." There is simply no room for improvising. You either do this and that or just reset. I'd say running a game with "some RNG" is more impressive than one without RNG as its impressive to see what certain runners come up with to try and keep their run on track. But it is not impressive to see a person running a game with "a lot" of RNG where its basically all that makes up the game.[quote="presjpolk"]If you think perfect movement and menuing doesn't take skill, I think you haven't done enough movement and menuing in speedrunning.

In Zelda II NG+ Glitch, I'm constantly losing time to Inzult simply because he's better at menuing and spell queuing than I am.[/quote]I never actually said that, I don't know where people are obtaining that assumption from, lol. In Eternal Eyes its simply tile based movement which doesn't surmount to anything at all. There is no skill in moving towards your enemies to attack them in this TBS, and there is nothing that can be done about the way the AI for the enemies respond either. Also as far as menuing goes its just "click the same skill over and over again." In this game its something nobody should be losing time over.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-22 02:37:08 pm

2013-04-22 02:26:55 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

But knowledge isn't skill within a game.

I don't get why there are exceptions where knowledge is a skill. If knowledge isn't a skill in pokemon, then competitive battling in pokemon takes no skill at all since it's purely knowledge and predictions. Even in more execution-based games, if you don't know about current routes or optimizations, then you are worse at the game than someone with equal execution as you, but with more up-to-date knowledge. I don't see what the difference is between knowledge in starcraft and knowledge in, say, final fantasy or pokemon.

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Anybody can learn about a game if they take the time, it takes a good player to nail execution and isn't something so easily learnt as something like which puppet is the best to attack this enemy.

Anyone can get good at a game if they take the time. How is this different than knowing more about a game by spending time with it? The primary reason I'm better than most people at Metroid Fusion is that I have almost a decade of experience speedrunning it; anyone who spends as much or more time than me can get better than me at speedrunning that game. I also learned a lot about Metroid Fusion just from playing it that much. Getting good at at execution, or obtaining knowledge, both develop from taking time by playing the game and watching speedruns.

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

I never actually said that, I don't know where people are obtaining that assumption from, lol.

Sorry but if you say something like:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it.

Then I think everyone had the right assumption of you meaning that movement and menuing takes no skill (since menuing is "less-execution based" than hitting enemies)

[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]But knowledge isn't skill within a game.[/quote]

I don't get why there are exceptions where knowledge is a skill. If knowledge isn't a skill in pokemon, then competitive battling in pokemon takes no skill at all since it's purely knowledge and predictions. Even in more execution-based games, if you don't know about current routes or optimizations, then you are worse at the game than someone with equal execution as you, but with more up-to-date knowledge. I don't see what the difference is between knowledge in starcraft and knowledge in, say, final fantasy or pokemon.

[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]Anybody can learn about a game if they take the time, it takes a good player to nail execution and isn't something so easily learnt as something like which puppet is the best to attack this enemy.[/quote]
Anyone can get good at a game if they take the time. How is this different than knowing more about a game by spending time with it? The primary reason I'm better than most people at Metroid Fusion is that I have almost a decade of experience speedrunning it; anyone who spends as much or more time than me can get better than me at speedrunning that game. I also learned a lot about Metroid Fusion just from playing it that much. Getting good at at execution, or obtaining knowledge, both develop from taking time by playing the game and watching speedruns.

[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]I never actually said that, I don't know where people are obtaining that assumption from, lol.[/quote]
Sorry but if you say something like:
[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it. [/quote]
Then I think everyone had the right assumption of you meaning that movement and menuing takes no skill (since menuing is "less-execution based" than hitting enemies)

garik16

2013-04-22 02:40:54 pm

Yeah I'm going to echo everyone else here. Yes there are certain games where decision making is automatic during the run - I'm speedrunning legend of legaia in a segmented run, and there are certain bosses where I will do the same thing over and over until i get the successful RNG, with boss input made irrelevant.

But it's the whole thing that makes it a speed run. Routing - or knowledge as you put it i guess - is hugely important, because of how I'm attempting the game, 2/3 of the bosses become beatable because my route through the first 1/4 of the game obtains me certain items. Knowing which items i can skip, can't skip, etc....how to minimize random battles, these are huge elements at reducing time to beat a game. That makes it a speed run, even if there is no mechanical skill involved.

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-22 03:23:51 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

But knowledge isn't skill within a game.

I don't get why there are exceptions where knowledge is a skill. If knowledge isn't a skill in pokemon, then competitive battling in pokemon takes no skill at all since it's purely knowledge and predictions. Even in more execution-based games, if you don't know about current routes or optimizations, then you are worse at the game than someone with equal execution as you, but with more up-to-date knowledge. I don't see what the difference is between knowledge in starcraft and knowledge in, say, final fantasy or pokemon.

What I mean is knowledge isn't a skill on its own. Having knowledge doesn't mean you have skill. Its what you do with that knowledge that makes it a skill. With games like Pokemon and Starcraft the decision making and execution you do in conjunction with the knowledge makes it a skill. Knowledge alone surmounts to nothing. And knowledge in a game which doesn't take much thought, like the game I'm on about, makes it not a skill. So you pick a puppet which can damage an enemy more in Eternal Eyes, that is common sense. When you play Pokemon there are numerous things you have to consider with the knowledge you have.

"If I do X then this person can do Y and Z. So I'll counter with W as it is an effective counter" < This is skill with knowledge. Seen in both Pokemon and Starcraft.

"So my character has 100 health, okay. That's nice information to know." < This is not skill, this is just knowing something. It can only be considered a skill if you can apply it somehow. I know the capitol of France is Paris, that is knowledge. Does that mean I have skill? No. It just means I have knowledge.

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Anybody can learn about a game if they take the time, it takes a good player to nail execution and isn't something so easily learnt as something like which puppet is the best to attack this enemy.

Anyone can get good at a game if they take the time. How is this different than knowing more about a game by spending time with it? The primary reason I'm better than most people at Metroid Fusion is that I have almost a decade of experience speedrunning it; anyone who spends as much or more time than me can get better than me at speedrunning that game. I also learned a lot about Metroid Fusion just from playing it that much. Getting good at at execution, or obtaining knowledge, both develop from taking time by playing the game and watching speedruns.

Of course, but saying knowledge means you have skill is just not true. Of course using that knowledge effectively is a skill but knowing and doing are two different things. I could know everything about fishing, that doesn't mean I'm skilled at fishing. If I can't apply what I know then it can't be considered a skill. It is much easier to train myself into knowing everything about fishing than it is to actually do it. There is also a difference between actively applying your knowledge in a real-time scenario compared to just plucking the information you've got and following it. There is nothing in the way of skill when you're just doing something so basic as what is in this game. There are a lot of things you need to consider in games like Pokemon and Starcraft which make knowledge of the games an active skill. Eternal Eyes however would not be so much.

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

I never actually said that, I don't know where people are obtaining that assumption from, lol.

Sorry but if you say something like:

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it.

Then I think everyone had the right assumption of you meaning that movement and menuing takes no skill (since menuing is "less-execution based" than hitting enemies)

I understand, but if you read what I said then you would see that I was specifically on about the game in question. It's gameplay mechanics are much more dumbed down than any RPG or RTS game out there right now. To the point that you don't even need proper menuing or movement execution. I guess this is my fault for not wording my sentence more clearly, I apologise.

[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]But knowledge isn't skill within a game.[/quote]

I don't get why there are exceptions where knowledge is a skill. If knowledge isn't a skill in pokemon, then competitive battling in pokemon takes no skill at all since it's purely knowledge and predictions. Even in more execution-based games, if you don't know about current routes or optimizations, then you are worse at the game than someone with equal execution as you, but with more up-to-date knowledge. I don't see what the difference is between knowledge in starcraft and knowledge in, say, final fantasy or pokemon.[/quote]What I mean is knowledge isn't a skill on its own. Having knowledge doesn't mean you have skill. Its what you do with that knowledge that makes it a skill. With games like Pokemon and Starcraft the decision making and execution you do in conjunction with the knowledge makes it a skill. Knowledge alone surmounts to nothing. And knowledge in a game which doesn't take much thought, like the game I'm on about, makes it not a skill. So you pick a puppet which can damage an enemy more in Eternal Eyes, that is common sense. When you play Pokemon there are numerous things you have to consider with the knowledge you have.

"If I do X then this person can do Y and Z. So I'll counter with W as it is an effective counter" < This is skill with knowledge. Seen in both Pokemon and Starcraft.

"So my character has 100 health, okay. That's nice information to know." < This is not skill, this is just knowing something. It can only be considered a skill if you can apply it somehow. I know the capitol of France is Paris, that is knowledge. Does that mean I have skill? No. It just means I have knowledge.[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]Anybody can learn about a game if they take the time, it takes a good player to nail execution and isn't something so easily learnt as something like which puppet is the best to attack this enemy.[/quote]
Anyone can get good at a game if they take the time. How is this different than knowing more about a game by spending time with it? The primary reason I'm better than most people at Metroid Fusion is that I have almost a decade of experience speedrunning it; anyone who spends as much or more time than me can get better than me at speedrunning that game. I also learned a lot about Metroid Fusion just from playing it that much. Getting good at at execution, or obtaining knowledge, both develop from taking time by playing the game and watching speedruns.[/quote]Of course, but saying knowledge means you have skill is just not true. Of course using that knowledge effectively is a skill but knowing and doing are two different things. I could know everything about fishing, that doesn't mean I'm skilled at fishing. If I can't apply what I know then it can't be considered a skill. It is much easier to train myself into knowing everything about fishing than it is to actually do it. There is also a difference between actively applying your knowledge in a real-time scenario compared to just plucking the information you've got and following it. There is nothing in the way of skill when you're just doing something so basic as what is in this game. There are a lot of things you need to consider in games like Pokemon and Starcraft which make knowledge of the games an active skill. Eternal Eyes however would not be so much.[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="CrimsonxxMana"]I never actually said that, I don't know where people are obtaining that assumption from, lol.[/quote]
Sorry but if you say something like:
[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]Problem is, there is no skill needed to play the game. You just move your character, hit the enemy a few times and then that's it. [/quote]
Then I think everyone had the right assumption of you meaning that movement and menuing takes no skill (since menuing is "less-execution based" than hitting enemies)[/quote]I understand, but if you read what I said then you would see that I was specifically on about the game in question. It's gameplay mechanics are much more dumbed down than any RPG or RTS game out there right now. To the point that you don't even need proper menuing or movement execution. I guess this is my fault for not wording my sentence more clearly, I apologise.