Can any game be speedrun?

2013-03-30 06:41:19 pm

I'm new to speedrunning and seeing people beat games in 2hrs to 30 mins gets me very excited. To the point, I have some games I like to run that are very niche like Crescent Pale Mist, Muramasa the Demon Blade, Fate Extra and etc, so if I can speedrun those games, where can I find the rules for these specific games?

Thread title:

I have no name

2013-03-30 06:51:16 pm

Obscure games ftw

Almost any game can be speedrun, but some games are better choices than others. Obviously if a game is all autoscrollers it can't be speedrun, but a free-roaming platformer or an RPG can be.

The rules are pretty much "get to the end as fast as possible without cheat codes".

Anyone can speedrun whatever they want to speedrun. Welcome to SDA Smiley

TrUShade

2013-03-30 06:51:57 pm

The TrUest of Shades

For Muramasa the Demon Blade: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/muramasa_the_demon_blade.html

That game I know has Youkai working on it right now.

Quote from I have no name:

Anyone can speedrun whatever they want to speedrun. Welcome to SDA Smiley

Softman25

Edit history:

Softman25: 2013-03-30 06:53:28 pm

2013-03-30 06:53:10 pm

As far as I'm concerned, anything is fair game as long as there is a way to actually go faster. So, autoscrollers, (most) sports games etc. are all out. But besides that:

Quote from I have no name:

Anyone can speedrun whatever they want to speedrun. Welcome to SDA Smiley

reikinou

2013-03-30 07:10:16 pm

Thanks guys. Do you start timing when you can control the character or when the text to the story appears before controlling the character.

MAS8705

Edit history:

MAS8705: 2013-03-30 07:12:27 pm

2013-03-30 07:11:48 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

I think we've discussed this earlier: MMOs, autoscrollers, and sports game (that don't have a faster way to progress through the game) can't really have a speed run due to how it either has no ending or how there is no way to make the game progress any faster.

Other than that, I too shall quote I have no name in saying how "Anyone can speedrun whatever they want to speed run." Also welcome to SDA. Smiley

We hope you enjoy your stay and just like you posted right now, do not be afraid to ask for help in games you have interest in speed running.

Edit: I believe for timing, it is when you first gain control of your character.

reikinou

2013-03-30 07:14:15 pm

Thanks.

Neohart

2013-03-30 07:25:32 pm

Final Fantasy VII Fanatic

Like others have said, Audoscrollers, mmo's Games that can be played on forever without ending (First thing that comes to mind: Harvest Moon) cannot, Welcome to SDA! Don't be afraid to run games that are longer then 3 hours!

Melodia

2013-03-31 12:00:16 am

Though some games may have a goal that isn't quite apparent that can still be speedrun, even f it's not a traditional "go from beginnjng to end" (SNES SimCity for instance). Also, an auto-scroller like a shmup often still has boss fights, though there'still the possibilities there (though, getting them onto SDA is a different issue).

zewing

2013-03-31 12:03:39 am

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

not all games can be completed per se but they could be raced. Look at minecraft and tetris. you can't really submit them to sda but you could see how fast you can get X amount of points and such. do whatever you like

Hsanrb

2013-03-31 02:39:48 am

Quote from zewing:

not all games can be completed per se but they could be raced. Look at minecraft and tetris. you can't really submit them to sda but you could see how fast you can get X amount of points and such. do whatever you like

Tetris has 40L and its quite a competitive catagory. The problem is every region has different standard rules involving piece speeds and such. Japan plays Tetris the Grand Master and the original is quite a competitive catagory.

CBenni

2013-03-31 04:35:15 am

Quote from zewing:

not all games can be completed per se but they could be raced. Look at minecraft and tetris. you can't really submit them to sda but you could see how fast you can get X amount of points and such. do whatever you like

Minecraft can be speedrun since almost a year. Bismuth did at 16 minute run once iirc. However, he never submitted to SDA.

Other games can be speedrun but not submitted to SDA: Mods, Custom maps and games that constantly change (for example, League of Legends). For these, speedruns exist, however they cannot be submitted.

kirbymastah

2013-03-31 12:12:58 pm

<(^_^)>

rhythm games. 'nuff said.

Rakuen

2013-03-31 04:19:24 pm

Weegee Time

Quote from kirbymastah:

rhythm games. 'nuff said.

DDR SuperNova's Stellar Master mode is routable and has luck manipulation. It'd be boring as hell to do and to watch, but it's possible to speedrun. Almost no genre is completely safe. Wink

Quote from Neohart:

Games that can be played on forever without ending (First thing that comes to mind: Harvest Moon)

Harvest Moon for the SNES has a defined ending and several other games have what you could term "victory conditions".

DarkBluesZX

2013-03-31 06:07:38 pm

Sounds like Maverick talk to me.

Quote from zewing:

not all games can be completed per se but they could be raced.

A usual case when it comes to extremely long games such as the Shin megami Tensei game series. There would be a specific goal to reach or a certain boss to beat.

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-19 01:57:42 pm

The only games I would say can't be speedrun fairly are RNG intensive ones as they basically luck-drawn runs. If you have a great RNG pattern(which would probably be a 1 in a million chance for the whole run) you're going to get a good time. But then you'll never replicate that speedrun until you have similar luck in the RNG pattern which could be donkeys years or mins depending on how heavily RNG based the game is and how long the game goes on for. That being said there are some games which have a bit of RNG which could probably be speedrun just fine. I'm sure there is some sort of line drawn somewhere as to how much RNG a game should have before you can't really speedrun it due to it not being easily replicated.

I have no name

2013-04-19 03:12:24 pm

Obscure games ftw

RNG just makes it take more real time to get a fast run in game time due to more tries. Doesn't matter that there's a 1 in a million shot, you just keep trying until that 1 in a million shot goes your way.

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-20 08:08:09 am

Quote from I have no name:

RNG just makes it take more real time to get a fast run in game time due to more tries. Doesn't matter that there's a 1 in a million shot, you just keep trying until that 1 in a million shot goes your way.

If that is the case then how do you quantify what makes the best speedrun? If we have a game that is 80% RNG and 20% execution and you get incredibly good luck in the game but your execution is poor and yet you still beat the WR does that count as a legitimate WR? Where do you draw the line if a game is heavily RNG that you allow for the speedrun to be quantified as a WR? Another problem with the "1 in a million" shot is you could execute the non-RNG parts of the game perfectly in all the runs you have terrible RNG in but when it comes to that "1 in a million" shot where the RNG is perfect your execution of the non-RNG parts might not be perfect and you make quite a few mistakes. It just seems to me that RNG heavy games are ones that shouldn't be thought of as speedruns in my honest opinion. They are more like "get-lucky-and-hope-your-execution-is-goodon-teh-urn"runs than legitimate speedruns. Also, how can you verify a speedrun if there is hardly anything to speed through? If 80% of the time you make up in the run is due to RNG then what exactly is the player speeding through exactly? Only the 20% of the game that isn't RNG. In that case what separates a regular player of the game from a speedrunner if only 20% of the game involves decent execution?

[quote="I have no name"]RNG just makes it take more real time to get a fast run in game time due to more tries.  Doesn't matter that there's a 1 in a million shot, you just keep trying until that 1 in a million shot goes your way.[/quote]If that is the case then how do you quantify what makes the best speedrun? If we have a game that is 80% RNG and 20% execution and you get incredibly good luck in the game but your execution is poor and yet you still beat the WR does that count as a legitimate WR? Where do you draw the line if a game is heavily RNG that you allow for the speedrun to be quantified as a WR? Another problem with the "1 in a million" shot is you could execute the non-RNG parts of the game perfectly in all the runs you have terrible RNG in but when it comes to that "1 in a million" shot where the RNG is perfect your execution of the non-RNG parts might not be perfect and you make quite a few mistakes. It just seems to me that RNG heavy games are ones that shouldn't be thought of as speedruns in my honest opinion. They are more like "get-lucky-and-hope-your-execution-is-goodon-teh-urn"runs than legitimate speedruns. Also, how can you verify a speedrun if there is hardly anything to speed through? If 80% of the time you make up in the run is due to RNG then what exactly is the player speeding through exactly? Only the 20% of the game that isn't RNG. In that case what separates a regular player of the game from a speedrunner if only 20% of the game involves decent execution?

Dalimyr

2013-04-20 03:35:36 pm

Quote from CrimsonxxMana:

If we have a game that is 80% RNG and 20% execution and you get incredibly good luck in the game but your execution is poor and yet you still beat the WR does that count as a legitimate WR? Where do you draw the line if a game is heavily RNG that you allow for the speedrun to be quantified as a WR? Another problem with the "1 in a million" shot is you could execute the non-RNG parts of the game perfectly in all the runs you have terrible RNG in but when it comes to that "1 in a million" shot where the RNG is perfect your execution of the non-RNG parts might not be perfect and you make quite a few mistakes. It just seems to me that RNG heavy games are ones that shouldn't be thought of as speedruns in my honest opinion. They are more like "get-lucky-and-hope-your-execution-is-goodon-teh-urn"runs than legitimate speedruns. Also, how can you verify a speedrun if there is hardly anything to speed through? If 80% of the time you make up in the run is due to RNG then what exactly is the player speeding through exactly? Only the 20% of the game that isn't RNG. In that case what separates a regular player of the game from a speedrunner if only 20% of the game involves decent execution?

Watch http://speeddemosarchive.com/Clue.html and make up your own mind Tongue

On a more serious note, for any game that's fun to run, the ratio is never going to be that high. Take something like Binding of Isaac, a prime example of a 'random' game because the floor layout is totally randomly generated. But you're never going to have someone just fluke their way to a world record on a blind playthrough or something. For all the randomness that the game throws at you, it throws just as much execution at you as well - you go into almost every room in the game not knowing what you're going to be facing (even the bosses you face are random), and you need the skill and execution to be able to clear each room of enemies quickly while avoiding getting killed yourself. There's also a high level of competition in BoI - it's got an active running community and for all the people who take the time to practice the game and aim to perfect their level of execution, sooner or later one of them would have luck go their way enough to complement their skill level and let them get a solid enough time that it'd be unlikely to be broken by someone fluking their way through with luck and nothing more.
With that in mind, if someone were to get a record time in an actively-run game like that then I'd probably say yes, the run is legit even with "poor" execution, although I still stand by the opinion that it'd be unlikely. It's more of a grey area when it comes to a game with heavy RNG bias that doesn't have any particularly great runs already (if any at all), but that's more or less just like being the record holder by default because you're the only person to play some obscure game that nobody else has even heard of.

[quote="CrimsonxxMana"]If we have a game that is 80% RNG and 20% execution and you get incredibly good luck in the game but your execution is poor and yet you still beat the WR does that count as a legitimate WR? Where do you draw the line if a game is heavily RNG that you allow for the speedrun to be quantified as a WR? Another problem with the "1 in a million" shot is you could execute the non-RNG parts of the game perfectly in all the runs you have terrible RNG in but when it comes to that "1 in a million" shot where the RNG is perfect your execution of the non-RNG parts might not be perfect and you make quite a few mistakes. It just seems to me that RNG heavy games are ones that shouldn't be thought of as speedruns in my honest opinion. They are more like "get-lucky-and-hope-your-execution-is-goodon-teh-urn"runs than legitimate speedruns. Also, how can you verify a speedrun if there is hardly anything to speed through? If 80% of the time you make up in the run is due to RNG then what exactly is the player speeding through exactly? Only the 20% of the game that isn't RNG. In that case what separates a regular player of the game from a speedrunner if only 20% of the game involves decent execution?[/quote]Watch http://speeddemosarchive.com/Clue.html and make up your own mind :P

On a more serious note, for any game that's fun to run, the ratio is never going to be that high. Take something like Binding of Isaac, a prime example of a 'random' game because the floor layout is totally randomly generated. But you're never going to have someone just fluke their way to a world record on a blind playthrough or something. For all the randomness that the game throws at you, it throws just as much execution at you as well - you go into almost every room in the game not knowing what you're going to be facing (even the bosses you face are random), and you need the skill and execution to be able to clear each room of enemies quickly while avoiding getting killed yourself. There's also a high level of competition in BoI - it's got an active running community and for all the people who take the time to practice the game and aim to perfect their level of execution, sooner or later one of them would have luck go their way enough to complement their skill level and let them get a solid enough time that it'd be unlikely to be broken by someone fluking their way through with luck and nothing more.
With that in mind, if someone were to get a record time in an actively-run game like that then I'd probably say yes, the run is legit even with "poor" execution, although I still stand by the opinion that it'd be unlikely. It's more of a grey area when it comes to a game with heavy RNG bias that doesn't have any particularly great runs already (if any at all), but that's more or less just like being the record holder by default because you're the only person to play some obscure game that nobody else has even heard of.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-21 12:01:06 am

kirbymastah: 2013-04-21 12:00:52 am

2013-04-20 06:21:58 pm

<(^_^)>

I think he's more referring to speedruns of RPG games, like pokemon and final fantasy. Which yeah, they take a crapton of luck, and they generally don't have that much execution, but they still require much practice and experience to be able to make the right decisions without wasting time (and trust me, because of the amount of RNG, there is a ton of experience you need to be able to improvise to lose minimal time).

Also, while RPG games aren't as execution-based, if you do make an execution error, you are basically screwed. RPG games are ridiculously punishing if you make a single mistake on a strat; I'd honestly say more punishing than any other game genre, period.

Melodia

2013-04-20 11:53:26 pm

Indeed, take something like FF1. You have to know which enemies you can and can't run from (or in some cases, if it's worth it to try or not, espeiclly on the PSP one with the glitch). Then there's decisions on how often to go into the menu, etc.
As for execution, you have to know exactly what to buy when, and making a mistake in seleting something means run over. You have to land the airship in the best spots (not always easy). Etc.

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2013-04-21 12:15:52 am

2013-04-21 12:15:18 am

welcome to the machine

compensating for and adapting to the rng is an often-overlooked skill when the game is sufficiently random (i.e. grinding for perfect luck isn't reasonably possible).

Ghostwheel

2013-04-21 02:17:17 am

The artist formerly known as Qxy

With the game I run (Chain of Memories), I have deal with Crimson's problem on a regular basis. Runners before me have often slandered the game for how luck based it can get, as your deck of cards that you fight enemies with will NEVER be the same from playthrough to playthrough. Its rare to find someone who touches the Sora category, as its often hailed as the most "random" game out there and is said to be unfit for speedrunning.

While it can be random, I still think it is very fun and in many ways one of the most interesting games to speedrun:
-You have to be able to improvise, and as I said, every playthrough is unique. You will never be able to get past the bosses if you don't understand what's important when building a deck. What you do isn't about a predefined strategy or sequence of events, its about a predefined strategic structure that dictates the kind of things you want to do, leaving the details up to the moment and making the decision as quickly as possible.

-There is still a lot of execution to be had. We're not talking about menuing here, but instead a real time card battle system, where in a speedrun you need to dance with the devil on very low HP. Make no mistake, performing well to any degree of consistency, especially under the pressure of a run with good luck is a daunting task, and the penalty is high for failure at any phase.

-There are ways to make an SS route more consistent. After I hit the scene and cleaned up the route, i only have to worry about 4 "the run" gates, one of which I reset for that the beginning. As far as RNG goes, these are the only things out of my control which will stop me from continuing if they don't cooperate. This has been cut down from about 10-20 things on the checklist via major route changes, minor route optimizations, and extensive knowledge of the game to help me make the best long term decision at any given point.

In that sense, I do think its fair to say that this "luck based" game and others like it can be speedrun, because when and if I get a submittable run, I'm confident that not just any person with the same luck as I had would get the same time. They would have to be as skilled, knowledgeable, and adaptable as I am, or else lose a very significant amount of time.

With the game I run (Chain of Memories), I have deal with Crimson's problem on a regular basis. Runners before me have often slandered the game for how luck based it can get, as your deck of cards that you fight enemies with will NEVER be the same from playthrough to playthrough. Its rare to find someone who touches the Sora category, as its often hailed as the most "random" game out there and is said to be unfit for speedrunning.

While it can be random, I still think it is very fun and in many ways one of the most interesting games to speedrun:
-You have to be able to improvise, and as I said, every playthrough is unique. You will never be able to get past the bosses if you don't understand what's important when building a deck. What you do isn't about a predefined strategy or sequence of events, its about a predefined strategic structure that dictates the kind of things you want to do, leaving the details up to the moment and making the decision as quickly as possible.

-There is still a lot of execution to be had. We're not talking about menuing here, but instead a real time card battle system, where in a speedrun you need to dance with the devil on very low HP. Make no mistake, performing well to any degree of consistency, especially under the pressure of a run with good luck is a daunting task, and the penalty is high for failure at any phase.

-There are ways to make an SS route more consistent. After I hit the scene and cleaned up the route, i only have to worry about 4 "the run" gates, one of which I reset for that the beginning. As far as RNG goes, these are the only things out of my control which will stop me from continuing if they don't cooperate. This has been cut down from about 10-20 things on the checklist via major route changes, minor route optimizations, and extensive knowledge of the game to help me make the best long term decision at any given point.

In that sense, I do think its fair to say that this "luck based" game and others like it can be speedrun, because when and if I get a submittable run, I'm confident that not just any person with the same luck as I had would get the same time. They would have to be as skilled, knowledgeable, and adaptable as I am, or else lose a very significant amount of time.

CrimsonxxMana

2013-04-21 05:34:56 am

I just find it hard to consider heavy RNG games as games that can speedrun. In my opinion there are just too many uncertainties to warrant the run as a speedrun. Especially if we're talking about it being consistent. If you had the worst RNG in the game which lost you tons of time but your execution is flawless can you really call that a "speed"run? I have no problem with games that require you to improvise on top of the RNG to make up for the time, those games are perfectly fine. But games where the RNG literally is a permanent loss on time no matter what you do is in my books not a game that can be speedrun. I feel a speedrun should be something that is quantifiable in every run you do. Not just those runs where you have that "1 in a million" chance of having really good RNG.

Tiberius

Edit history:

Tiberius: 2013-04-21 09:16:13 am

2013-04-21 09:15:11 am

Make it so.

But where do you draw the line in how much RNG is acceptable? The scenario you're describing there where even with backup strats RNG causes a permanent and irretrievable loss of time can happen in some of the most execution heavy games. Let's take Contra as an example. Most of the game has little to no RNG and is obviously execution heavy, yet if the first boss shoots close to start, you lose a second. If the 5th boss spawns in the wrong place, you lose a second at least. If the 6th boss jumps often, you lose time. There is no way you can not lose time on these, no matter what you do, as you described.

I can see where you're coming from but you would have to draw a arbitrary line as to what is "too much" RNG which to me doesn't make too much sense.