C4L2014 Feedback Thread

Edit history:

Vulajin: 2014-06-15 02:15:29 am

2014-06-14 02:16:37 pm

Quote from Poxnor:

Regarding communication: I thought it was clear that she was providing the gaming machine. She obviously didn't think as much. This is a problem, and the problem of who supplies the gaming PC has to change for next year anyway. I'm even open to the (less than ideal) suggestion of returning to a console-only marathon, because PC-gaming was a nightmare.

I'm not sure where you got this idea. Aside from the snafu regarding where the gaming PC was coming from, the PC runs were some of the least problem-prone runs in the marathon. Certainly they had no more capture card freezes than any other run on average, and the PC setup barely made a blip in our day one sprint. Calling the PC gaming portion of the marathon a "nightmare" is a rather curious choice.

Quote from Poxnor:

It's being held on my personal channel because it's Twitch-partnered and Twitch-subbed, which I see as big step in our success moving forward.

We can organize a new channel with partner and sub specifically for the marathon if need be. Romscout could help liaise with Twitch for this purpose.

Quote from Poxnor:

Which is why we attempted to rent a large room at a hotel, instead of a conference centre. And yes, noise was a concern. I'd like to hear more from the people who attended; yeah, we didn't get a direct complaint (in the end), but there were definitely times sitting in the room that I was legitimately worried that we were about to. All of us in the room sure believed that the so-called complaint was legit, because we were being loud on the top floor of a hotel.

We were pretty loud all week and got exactly one complaint. I was not especially concerned about sound complaints and do not consider this a reason to reconsider the Chateau Louis next year. (Certainly not compared to the cost factor.)

Quote from Poxnor:

I think if 2, 5, or 10 hours of a marathon are being planning around you playing a game, there needs to be some manner of: "I'm really signing up, barring life throwing a total, horrific curveball."

There is. If you drop late without good reason [and you were on the schedule], you are blackballed from doing speedruns at the event in the future. For the purposes of a speedrunning marathon, anyone else dropping out needs to be irrelevant to us. This is a charity event that people are participating in on a voluntary basis. Asking for money before final costs are established, effectively holding it as collateral, is likely to prevent many people from volunteering to attend. I guess, in that context, you will certainly have a reduction in drops, because the people who are actually willing to pay the deposit will be the people who know 100% for a fact that they can attend the marathon, and everyone who is iffy will simply choose not to attend (even if they later end up being able to attend). I don't think this is a positive outcome and I think you should reconsider this idea entirely.

If last second drops are causing us this much of an issue, then perhaps we need to consider scaling back the schedule. Unlike a GDQ where they can schedule 150 hours of games and still have over 150 hours of readily-available backups, we barely managed to fill our 5-day schedule even with many-hour RPG runs. Part of planning for a marathon is dealing with drops, and part of dealing with drops is having backup games to slot in. I don't mean backup games like "hey, Puwexil and Essentia, can you guys de-rust a third game in less than a month?" I mean backup games like "hey Vulajin, I know we had cut your Pokemon White 2 run because there were so many other strong runs, but we'd like to add you back in now." Given the set of games that were offered, we only could have done this if the schedule had been significantly shortened. And in hindsight, perhaps that is what should have been done.

As a final point, I just have to really drive home the fact that, until we have some sort of buffer in our budget, having costs be dependent on the number of attendees is going to be a real problem. Not knowing the set-in-stone final costs is going to detract a significant number of people from attending, but not knowing a set-in-stone number of attendees will prevent us from getting that information. It's a chicken and egg problem that we need to solve in some reasonable way if we want to really attract attendees. (Please don't say "I promised we'd match Puwexil's estimate" again. A promise is not the same as a final number and leaves us without needed information.) Essentia and Denton have, extremely generously, offered one way to manage this problem, and I'm sure we can find others if we really make this a top priority for next year.

Also, really finally, I wanted to add that I know Poxnor and our other organizers ate huge costs out of their own pockets to bring this marathon to fruition. Your time, expenditures, and efforts are not at all unappreciated. My hope is that we untangle the knots for next year so we can attract more attendees, raise more money, and reduce everyone's out of pocket costs, including those of the organizers.

[quote="Poxnor"]Regarding communication: I thought it was clear that she was providing the gaming machine.  She obviously didn't think as much.  This is a problem, and the problem of who supplies the gaming PC has to change for next year anyway.  I'm even open to the (less than ideal) suggestion of returning to a console-only marathon, because PC-gaming was a nightmare.[/quote]

I'm not sure where you got this idea. Aside from the snafu regarding where the gaming PC was coming from, the PC runs were some of the least problem-prone runs in the marathon. Certainly they had no more capture card freezes than any other run on average, and the PC setup barely made a blip in our day one sprint. Calling the PC gaming portion of the marathon a "nightmare" is a rather curious choice.

[quote="Poxnor"]It's being held on my personal channel because it's Twitch-partnered and Twitch-subbed, which I see as big step in our success moving forward.[/quote]

We can organize a new channel with partner and sub specifically for the marathon if need be. Romscout could help liaise with Twitch for this purpose.

[quote="Poxnor"]Which is why we attempted to rent a large room at a hotel, instead of a conference centre.  And yes, noise was a concern.  I'd like to hear more from the people who attended; yeah, we didn't get a direct complaint (in the end), but there were definitely times sitting in the room that I was [i]legitimately[/i] worried that we were about to.  All of us in the room sure believed that the so-called complaint was legit, because we were being loud on the top floor of a hotel.[/quote]

We were pretty loud all week and got exactly one complaint. I was not especially concerned about sound complaints and do not consider this a reason to reconsider the Chateau Louis next year. (Certainly not compared to the cost factor.)

[quote="Poxnor"]I think if 2, 5, or 10 hours of a marathon are being planning around you playing a game, there needs to be some manner of: "I'm really signing up, barring life throwing a total, horrific curveball."[/quote]

There is. If you drop late without good reason [and you were on the schedule], you are blackballed from doing speedruns at the event in the future. For the purposes of a speedrunning marathon, anyone else dropping out needs to be irrelevant to us. This is a charity event that people are participating in on a voluntary basis. Asking for money before final costs are established, effectively holding it as collateral, is likely to prevent many people from volunteering to attend. I guess, in that context, you will certainly have a reduction in drops, because the people who are actually willing to pay the deposit will be the people who know 100% for a fact that they can attend the marathon, and everyone who is iffy will simply choose not to attend (even if they later end up being able to attend). I don't think this is a positive outcome and I think you should reconsider this idea entirely.

If last second drops are causing us this much of an issue, then perhaps we need to consider scaling back the schedule. Unlike a GDQ where they can schedule 150 hours of games and still have over 150 hours of readily-available backups, we barely managed to fill our 5-day schedule even with many-hour RPG runs. Part of planning for a marathon is dealing with drops, and part of dealing with drops is having backup games to slot in. I don't mean backup games like "hey, Puwexil and Essentia, can you guys de-rust a third game in less than a month?" I mean backup games like "hey Vulajin, I know we had cut your Pokemon White 2 run because there were so many other strong runs, but we'd like to add you back in now." Given the set of games that were offered, we only could have done this if the schedule had been significantly shortened. And in hindsight, perhaps that is what should have been done.

As a final point, I just have to really drive home the fact that, until we have some sort of buffer in our budget, having costs be dependent on the number of attendees is going to be a real problem. Not knowing the set-in-stone final costs is going to detract a significant number of people from attending, but not knowing a set-in-stone number of attendees will prevent us from getting that information. It's a chicken and egg problem that we need to solve in some reasonable way if we want to really attract attendees. (Please don't say "I promised we'd match Puwexil's estimate" again. A promise is not the same as a final number and leaves us without needed information.) Essentia and Denton have, extremely generously, offered one way to manage this problem, and I'm sure we can find others if we really make this a top priority for next year.

Also, really finally, I wanted to add that I know Poxnor and our other organizers ate huge costs out of their own pockets to bring this marathon to fruition. Your time, expenditures, and efforts are not at all unappreciated. My hope is that we untangle the knots for next year so we can attract more attendees, raise more money, and reduce [i]everyone's[/i] out of pocket costs, including those of the organizers.

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2014-06-14 08:13:13 pm

mikwuyma: 2014-06-14 07:26:59 pm

2014-06-14 07:21:47 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I’m going to get some stuff out of the way before I get to the real post. If this comes off as a personal attack, well I’m sorry, but I feel like I have to get this out of the way. Also, there are a lot of good points in this thread, especially from Murph, Vulajin, and Josh.

Chat: I was with Romscout this week at E3, and he said one of the most shocking things about looking at Twitch statistics (he works at Twitch FYI) was that chat is the stickiest thing on Twitch, at around 80%, and is the biggest factor in whether people stay on a stream or just leave. I’ll echo other people’s sentiments that C4L 2013 chat was pretty calm (I can only recall one or two bad moments) and there were points when it had less spam than the Quakenet chat (I’m specifically thinking of the Gilgamesh flex spam in FFV). Now if JRDQ does not want Twitch chat, then I would respect that, but you should really consider having Twitch chat otherwise.

Also PCF said Twitch chat was brutal, but they didn't really seem to want to nuke it or anything. I'll probably have a more in-depth discussion with them about it at some point.

The hotel: I saw the costs, and they were really high. $500 to stay for the entire event if you were in a double room compared to AGDQ’s ~$330 (I can’t remember the exact cost off the top of my head). I don’t remember a single gdq costing more than 350 or so to stay at if you’re rooming with at least 3 other people, including bonus stream.

Poxnor,

I’ve had the pleasure of meeting you 2 years ago at SGDQ 2012, and I enjoyed talking to you. You also helped out a lot by volunteering at the marathon, and you did a good job of coming up with donation incentives for Final Fantasy VIII. You’re a very nice, polite, and courteous person. The problem is that those qualities don’t have much do with being a marathon organizer.

There is one thing that I will admit running these events as the head organizer, and that is I am the one responsible for everything. Does that mean I shouldn’t delegate? No, I would be dead without delegating, and I’m still trying to improve there, but what it means is that I am responsible for whatever happens during the event, whether it’s something good (the amount we raised), something bad (controllerhead’s behavior), something I did directly (the console cart at AGDQ), or something that happened without my presence (like the free chat donation incentive). Sure, I might not have approved the free chat donation incentive, but I didn’t write out proper guidelines for donation incentives/chat, and I was the one who let that person volunteer. As the director of the event, the onus and responsibility falls on on the guy in charge, whether it’s me, romscout, or you.

Since responsibility falls on the organizer(s), they have to make sure that shit gets done. Whether it’s finding the location, negotiating, or delegating such responsibilties (then you have to make sure the person is reliable!), that needs to get done. Part of getting shit done is making sure you communicate what is going on too, if attendees are not informed, then that doesn’t instill confidence in the event. If attendees don’t know costs at least 2 months ahead of time, then how will they predict if they can come or not cost-wise? Plane tickets only become more expensive when there’s less than a month before an event, especially international ones.

Yes, marathons are a lot of work, and we need to take breaks from time to time, however, extended month-long absences are unacceptable when planning an event. I also noticed that C4L was in between grad school and finding a job, both of which can take up a lot of time. If you don’t have enough time to organize event, then that’s fine, provided you can find someone else to organize it. I realized I didn’t have the time or motivation to plan SGDQ as much as I used to, so that’s why I handed it off to romscout.

I will admit that I have made many mistakes planning the GDQs, and new ones will pop up, either because I (or someone else) didn’t have the time to fix it, or it’s just something that couldn’t have been easily anticipated. That is why after each event, I talk with staff and volunteers over what can be improved, and we have a feedback thread. While I don’t take in all the feedback, and some of the feedback I try to implement doesn’t get implemented, it’s important to acknowledge what others think about the event, and how to improve it. Yes, some people might not be the nicest about it, but it’s about improving.

If you’re not really sure what to get out of this, then what I’m really getting at is that you have to own up and be responsible for what happened for C4L to grow, both the good and the bad. Honestly, if C4L continues to be run like it is now, then I don’t think it will grow and I won’t want to attend.

The worst thing that could happen to this event is that it doesn’t grow and represent the RPG community properly. The RPG community is growing, and they deserve to have a marathon where they can showcase their community, especially since a lot of the games wouldn’t have a chance in a GDQ marathon. The question is whether someone, Poxnor, whether it’s you or someone else, will take the reins and really take the time to work on C4L so it can grow.

I’m going to get some stuff out of the way before I get to the real post. If this comes off as a personal attack, well I’m sorry, but I feel like I have to get this out of the way.  Also, there are a lot of good points in this thread, especially from Murph, Vulajin, and Josh.

Chat: I was with Romscout this week at E3, and he said one of the most shocking things about looking at Twitch statistics (he works at Twitch FYI) was that chat is the stickiest thing on Twitch, at around 80%, and is the biggest factor in whether people stay on a stream or just leave. I’ll echo other people’s sentiments that C4L 2013 chat was pretty calm (I can only recall one or two bad moments) and there were points when it had less spam than the Quakenet chat (I’m specifically thinking of the Gilgamesh flex spam in FFV). Now if JRDQ does not want Twitch chat, then I would respect that, but you should really consider having Twitch chat otherwise.

Also PCF said Twitch chat was brutal, but they didn't really seem to want to nuke it or anything. I'll probably have a more in-depth discussion with them about it at some point.

The hotel: I saw the costs, and they were really high. $500 to stay for the entire event if you were in a double room compared to AGDQ’s ~$330 (I can’t remember the exact cost off the top of my head). I don’t remember a single gdq costing more than 350 or so to stay at if you’re rooming with at least 3 other people,  including bonus stream.

Poxnor,

I’ve had the pleasure of meeting you 2 years ago at SGDQ 2012, and I enjoyed talking to you. You also helped out a lot by volunteering at the marathon, and you did a good job of coming up with donation incentives for Final Fantasy VIII. You’re a very nice, polite, and courteous person. The problem is that those qualities don’t have much do with being a marathon organizer.

There is one thing that I will admit running these events as the head organizer, and that is [b]I am the one responsible for everything[/b]. Does that mean I shouldn’t delegate? No, I would be dead without delegating, and I’m still trying to improve there, but what it means is that I am responsible for whatever happens during the event, whether it’s something good (the amount we raised), something bad (controllerhead’s behavior), something I did directly (the console cart at AGDQ), or something that happened without my presence (like the free chat donation incentive). Sure, I might not have approved the free chat donation incentive, but I didn’t write out proper guidelines for donation incentives/chat, and I was the one who let that person volunteer. As the director of the event, [b]the onus and responsibility falls on on the guy in charge[/b], whether it’s me, romscout, or you.

Since responsibility falls on the organizer(s), they have to make sure that shit gets done. Whether it’s finding the location, negotiating, or delegating such responsibilties (then you have to make sure the person is reliable!), that needs to get done. Part of getting shit done is making sure you communicate what is going on too, if attendees are not informed, then that doesn’t instill confidence in the event. If attendees don’t know costs at least 2 months ahead of time, then how will they predict if they can come or not cost-wise? Plane tickets only become more expensive when there’s less than a month before an event, especially international ones.

Yes, marathons are a lot of work, and we need to take breaks from time to time, however, extended month-long absences are unacceptable when planning an event. I also noticed that C4L was in between grad school and finding a job, both of which can take up a lot of time. If you don’t have enough time to organize event, then that’s fine, provided you can find someone else to organize it. I realized I didn’t have the time or motivation to plan SGDQ as much as I used to, so that’s why I handed it off to romscout.

I will admit that I have made many mistakes planning the GDQs, and new ones will pop up, either because I (or someone else) didn’t have the time to fix it, or it’s just something that couldn’t have been easily anticipated. That is why after each event, I talk with staff and volunteers over what can be improved, and we have a feedback thread. While I don’t take in all the feedback, and some of the feedback I try to implement doesn’t get implemented, it’s important to acknowledge what others think about the event, and how to improve it. Yes, some people might not be the nicest about it, but it’s about improving.

If you’re not really sure what to get out of this, then what I’m really getting at is that [b]you have to own up and be responsible for what happened for C4L to grow, both the good and the bad.[/b] Honestly, if C4L continues to be run like it is now, then I don’t think it will grow and I won’t want to attend.

The worst thing that could happen to this event is that it doesn’t grow and represent the RPG community properly. The RPG community is growing, and they deserve to have a marathon where they can showcase their community, especially since a lot of the games wouldn’t have a chance in a GDQ marathon. The question is whether someone, Poxnor, whether it’s you or someone else, will take the reins and really take the time to work on C4L so it can grow.

MetaSigma

2014-06-14 09:20:21 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

If there is one thing I could say and hopefully I'm correct in what I'm seeing just overall. I agree and share Mike's thoughts, as they honestly apply to anything, it did seem much more of a madhouse than last year in general. I myself was part of that madhouse and I have to bear responsibility for my part in all of it.

That being said Pox and maybe this is just me being me, but would it not make more sense that instead of coming on here and trying to defend everything that may or may not have happened. You just...read it over and look at it with a completely open mind. Don't even comment on anything here and just see what people are saying. It seems many people are all saying the same thing and as the old saying goes where there's smoke isn't there usually fire? That's not an attack on you at all, but merely a reflection of what happened, happened.

I have to echo Mike's thought as well that maybe the fact you were in the middle of a move, grad school, finding a job and honestly being crazy busy the whole time you tried putting to many eggs in one basket this time around? I cannot speak for anyone but myself but I do find that when I try to cram so much into something big like this I really just...am not good at it. This is not me saying that's you at all, but that everyone has a limit and that maybe you pushed too hard to fast this time?

Pox your passion and desire to do something like this is indeed something I think is awesome, and I told you I'm on your team to help make it happen. Not just this marathon but marathons in general. I do feel that a lot has been learned from this marathon that can and will be applied to make future marathons much better. Sometimes you have to wade through a lot of shit to get to where you want to go, and sometimes that means things are going to go poorly, but when you're leading it basically if it goes well, it's to your credit, and when it goes bad it's also on you. All in all though I wouldn't change what happened this time around for anything. I learned a lot about how to help, and how to do little things that I know "I" can do to make things better.

If there is one thing I could say and hopefully I'm correct in what I'm seeing just overall. I agree and share Mike's thoughts, as they honestly apply to anything, it did seem much more of a madhouse than last year in general. I myself was part of that madhouse and I have to bear responsibility for my part in all of it.

That being said Pox and maybe this is just me being me, but would it not make more sense that instead of coming on here and trying to defend everything that may or may not have happened. You just...read it over and look at it with a completely open mind. Don't even comment on anything here and just see what people are saying. It seems many people are all saying the same thing and as the old saying goes where there's smoke isn't there usually fire? That's not an attack on you at all, but merely a reflection of what happened, happened.

I have to echo Mike's thought as well that maybe the fact you were in the middle of a move, grad school, finding a job and honestly being crazy busy the whole time you tried putting to many eggs in one basket this time around? I cannot speak for anyone but myself but I do find that when I try to cram so much into something big like this I really just...am not good at it. This is not me saying that's you at all, but that everyone has a limit and that maybe you pushed too hard to fast this time?

Pox your passion and desire to do something like this is indeed something I think is awesome, and I told you I'm on your team to help make it happen. Not just this marathon but marathons in general. I do feel that a lot has been learned from this marathon that can and will be applied to make future marathons much better. Sometimes you have to wade through a lot of shit to get to where you want to go, and sometimes that means things are going to go poorly, but when you're leading it basically if it goes well, it's to your credit, and when it goes bad it's also on you. All in all though I wouldn't change what happened this time around for anything. I learned a lot about how to help, and how to do little things that I know "I" can do to make things better.

rinimt

2014-06-14 11:22:28 pm

Kupo!

Right, I've had a little to drink and I haven't had the best day so if this comes off as not making much sense... I apologize. I will try to avoid too much rambling.

Communication: As others have said, the huge lack of communication at times was an issue. I had faith in you to pull it all together, but there were times I was starting to worry.

Tech crew: After having done what felt like 95% of donation station last year I told myself not again, at least not for that long. However, there were times I did want to go jump on tech but I hadn't really had any info on running much. I did jump on tech a couple times in the morning when there wasn't really anyone else around yet, however I was somewhat lost on what all I needed to do. A bit more of an info thing for all of us would be great so more can help out here.

Food: Those daily donuts and the included breakfast. <3 I will step up as someone who didn't take advantage of the free meals though, but that's just due to my being a picky eater. I guess I just forgot to mention it as much this year as I did last year. I didn't mind walking over to Quiznos to grab a sub, however. I'm quite used to it. Tongue

Practice room: While the practice room was nice, it did sometimes feel a bit cramped. Also, the lack of a way to get to it (easily) without going right through the streaming room (and thus on camera, as the camera pointed towards the door so you saw everyone coming in/going out) was quite annoying. Having it separate next year would be greatly appreciated.

Prizes: I honestly didn't even know that there was prizes for my own run until they were drawn a month later. There definitely needs to be an improvement here as far as promoting these go.

Advertisement: Being unable to get the promo video finished until two days before the marathon... Yeah, that didn't help things much at all. It definitely felt like there was less online advertisement this year, and next year I'd definitely be willing to step up and use some of the connections I have to get the word out there. Due to various factors I was unable to do so this year and I apologize for that.

Somewhere to gather: This was especially true post-marathon, but the lack of a set location for all of to gather and just hang out was frustrating. During the marathon we had the practice room, though as I mentioned before that was cramped.

Deposits next year: I've been thinking this over and I really don't see this as being a good idea. While I of course would definitely like to attend, I'm pretty sure my financial situation will be worse off come 2015. Having to think about putting down a deposit would definitely turn me off, as I can't guarantee anything, especially seeing as I'm looking to try and move out within the next year (which, if I do, will put an even bigger burden on my limited budget).

Location: Coming as one of the Montanans who would be affected by a move to Vancouver, I'd still like to see it stay in Canada - Vancouver or Edmonton. Apparently, despite there being the option in the past (and who knows, by the time C4L were to roll around again, it might be there), there's no option to bus from where I am to SLC. There is, however, a bus to Vancouver which would take roughly a day each way (I've done worse bus trips). There's also the option of flying, though if I were to want to fly right to Vancouver I'd need to upgrade my passport (something I need to do anyways). /ramblingoff I'd like to see the marathon stay in Canada.

Game Selection: I think for next year we would probably want to look into something else (while it worked somewhat this year there were definitely some major delays in the selections). Someone else (sorry, don't feel like digging and bad at names right now) had mentioned doing a Skype method and talking it over in realtime instead of via PM. I feel this would work better. As far as the whole "1 game/runner" thing, that should probably be dropped - though we probably don't want to be sticking 3 decently sized runs on one person (preferably not 3 runs on one person at all, lol).

Incentives: Spur of the moment incentive additions are great, but not if they take away from the quality of the commentary (or if other incentives are struggling to be met). Meta, love you man, but the pony hat incentive definitely felt like it took away from some commentary in places. Everyone was more focused on it instead of actual commentary.

--

Hopefully that all makes sense. This is all I can think of right now though.

All this being said, I would absolutely love to be able to attend next year. However I'm just not sure my financial situation will be in a good place to do so.

Right, I've had a little to drink and I haven't had the best day so if this comes off as not making much sense... I apologize. I will try to avoid too much rambling.

Communication: As others have said, the huge lack of communication at times was an issue. I had faith in you to pull it all together, but there were times I was starting to worry.

Tech crew: After having done what felt like 95% of donation station last year I told myself not again, at least not for that long. However, there were times I did want to go jump on tech but I hadn't really had any info on running much. I did jump on tech a couple times in the morning when there wasn't really anyone else around yet, however I was somewhat lost on what all I needed to do. A bit more of an info thing for all of us would be great so more can help out here.

Food: Those daily donuts and the included breakfast. <3 I will step up as someone who didn't take advantage of the free meals though, but that's just due to my being a picky eater. I guess I just forgot to mention it as much this year as I did last year. I didn't mind walking over to Quiznos to grab a sub, however. I'm quite used to it. :P

Practice room: While the practice room was nice, it did sometimes feel a bit cramped. Also, the lack of a way to get to it (easily) without going right through the streaming room (and thus on camera, as the camera pointed towards the door so you saw everyone coming in/going out) was quite annoying. Having it separate next year would be greatly appreciated.

Prizes: I honestly didn't even know that there was prizes for my own run until they were drawn a month later. There definitely needs to be an improvement here as far as promoting these go.

Advertisement: Being unable to get the promo video finished until [i]two days before the marathon[/i]... Yeah, that didn't help things much at all. It definitely felt like there was less online advertisement this year, and next year I'd definitely be willing to step up and use some of the connections I have to get the word out there. Due to various factors I was unable to do so this year and I apologize for that.

Somewhere to gather: This was especially true post-marathon, but the lack of a set location for all of to gather and just hang out was frustrating. During the marathon we had the practice room, though as I mentioned before that was cramped.

Deposits next year: I've been thinking this over and I really don't see this as being a good idea. While I of course would definitely like to attend, I'm pretty sure my financial situation will be worse off come 2015. Having to think about putting down a deposit would definitely turn me off, as I can't guarantee anything, especially seeing as I'm looking to try and move out within the next year (which, if I do, will put an even bigger burden on my limited budget).

Location: Coming as one of the Montanans who would be affected by a move to Vancouver, I'd still like to see it stay in Canada - Vancouver or Edmonton. Apparently, despite there being the option in the past (and who knows, by the time C4L were to roll around again, it might be there), there's no option to bus from where I am to SLC. There is, however, a bus to Vancouver which would take roughly a day each way (I've done worse bus trips). There's also the option of flying, though if I were to want to fly right to Vancouver I'd need to upgrade my passport (something I need to do anyways). /ramblingoff I'd like to see the marathon stay in Canada.

Game Selection: I think for next year we would probably want to look into something else (while it worked somewhat this year there were definitely some major delays in the selections). Someone else (sorry, don't feel like digging and bad at names right now) had mentioned doing a Skype method and talking it over in realtime instead of via PM. I feel this would work better. As far as the whole "1 game/runner" thing, that should probably be dropped - though we probably don't want to be sticking 3 decently sized runs on one person (preferably not 3 runs on one person at all, lol).

Incentives: Spur of the moment incentive additions are great, but not if they take away from the quality of the commentary (or if other incentives are struggling to be met). Meta, love you man, but the pony hat incentive definitely felt like it took away from some commentary in places. Everyone was more focused on it instead of actual commentary.

--

Hopefully that all makes sense. This is all I can think of right now though.

All this being said, I would absolutely love to be able to attend next year. However I'm just not sure my financial situation will be in a good place to do so.

djtifaheart

2014-06-15 12:16:31 am

Gotta Go Fast!

First and foremost, let's start with the stuff that I took care of personally. For those who don't know, I was in charge of the donation incentive and prize threads, I first took upon the donation incentive thread on April 1st and the prize thread on April 2nd. So, I came into this with less than four weeks left to go.

As I told people, this wasn't stressful for me, but things to note for the future:

Incentives
+ I had to hunt some of you down for your incentives. Please, please in the future contact myself (assuming I'm on for next year), Poxnor or one of the other organizers. It'll make both of our jobs MUCH easier to do. I was fine waiting if I knew a schedule as to when some of you were around on IRC and such. Like, if I'm used to people being around at certain times.

+ That said, check the "side" threads as well, not just the main thread. (UA, you were lucky I checked the practice thread, otherwise, I wouldn't have known your incentives had changed Tongue

)

+ Some of you were amazing at keeping me informed with changes to your incentives. For that, I thank you for.

+ Poxnor and I assigned some of the dollar amounts, so some of those fall back on me. Sir VG requested one of his to be really high. If an incentive didn't have an amount, they were put into the tracker later by the assigned people.

+ I don't agree with signaling out Caracarn, Ginzuishou. I think we should treat each game AND runner as equals. I just don't think it's fair to signal out a single runner just because they have a fanbase surrounding them.

+ That said, I do feel that the silly incentives (the Meta human vs. pony one notably) took away from the incentives that mattered to the marathon. As much as I'd like a good joke now and then, we need to learn when the lines been crossed. Spud's run suffered from this, I felt the commentary die down a bit when this incentive war got started there. The Viking Cara one was fine, since it took place during his runs.

Prizes
+ The only real thing to note here was an issue that came up with one of the art pieces. Regardless of what you're donating, keep in mind that this is a family friendly stream. Prizes should come to us that way.

+ Also, when I took upon the thread itself, we only had two people offering prizes. This changed fast from people attending the event and other generous donators who made the prize pool grow.

+ As for promoting the prizes themselves, this was a mess I feel. The tracker lacked some image links (I poked Poxnor about it), the tracker also lead some of the prizes back to last year's winnings. I think with them being off site made it a little harder to promote them.

Tracker
+ I got told that incentives would be going up on Monday night, they didn't get put into the tracker until hours within' of marathon starting time. (Shoutouts to AlecK for contacting me on here). Due to this last minute process, the early games suffered a great deal. Had they been put into the tracker earlier, some of the incentives could have been met.

+ I tried my best in the IRC chat to promote the incentives. Kept trying to plug away at them.

Chat
+ The IRC chat suffered from lack of moderators the first day. Nitrodon added me as a back up mod, then I added both Vulajin and Everhate on as back up mods before going to bed. This was quickly resolved the next day, woke up to a couple of more mods in chat. We're lucky that the IRC chat was sane, otherwise this would have been a big problem for us.

+ That said, HUGE shoutouts to people on site for putting up with my pokings with concerns that came up in chat. I.E., puwexil's mic becoming quiet (it had fallen off him and no one noticed), dealing with chat concerns and whatnot.

------------------

Vulajin: Just wanted to point out that puwexil and Essentia weren't the only two who had games thrown on them at the last minute, FFGamer and Sir VG had this happen to them as well, putting the four of them at three games each, not counting commentary duty.

Poxnor: I respect you and with more work, we can work out the knots from this year's C4L and make the next one grow and get better. Learn from your mistakes sir.

I have to disagree strongly with the deposit idea, it's just not fair to people signing up then needing to drop due to real life reasons. With the way how my life is right now, this makes me very hesitant on thinking of going next year, even if it's situated in the states.

If I think of anything else, I'll put it here later.

First and foremost, let's start with the stuff that I took care of personally. For those who don't know, I was in charge of the donation incentive and prize threads, I first took upon the donation incentive thread on April 1st and the prize thread on April 2nd. So, I came into this with less than four weeks left to go.

As I told people, this wasn't stressful for me, but things to note for the future:

[b]Incentives[/b]
+ I had to hunt some of you down for your incentives. Please, please in the future contact myself (assuming I'm on for next year), Poxnor or one of the other organizers. It'll make both of our jobs MUCH easier to do. I was fine waiting if I knew a schedule as to when some of you were around on IRC and such. Like, if I'm used to people being around at certain times.

+ That said, check the "side" threads as well, not just the main thread. (UA, you were lucky I checked the practice thread, otherwise, I wouldn't have known your incentives had changed :P )

+ Some of you were amazing at keeping me informed with changes to your incentives. For that, I thank you for.

+ Poxnor and I assigned some of the dollar amounts, so some of those fall back on me. Sir VG requested one of his to be really high. If an incentive didn't have an amount, they were put into the tracker later by the assigned people.

+ I don't agree with signaling out Caracarn, Ginzuishou. I think we should treat each game AND runner as equals. I just don't think it's fair to signal out a single runner just because they have a fanbase surrounding them.

+ That said, I do feel that the silly incentives (the Meta human vs. pony one notably) took away from the incentives that mattered to the marathon. As much as I'd like a good joke now and then, we need to learn when the lines been crossed. Spud's run suffered from this, I felt the commentary die down a bit when this incentive war got started there. The Viking Cara one was fine, since it took place during his runs.

[b]Prizes[/b]
+ The only real thing to note here was an issue that came up with one of the art pieces. Regardless of what you're donating, keep in mind that this is a family friendly stream. Prizes should come to us that way.

+ Also, when I took upon the thread itself, we only had two people offering prizes. This changed fast from people attending the event and other generous donators who made the prize pool grow.

+ As for promoting the prizes themselves, this was a mess I feel. The tracker lacked some image links (I poked Poxnor about it), the tracker also lead some of the prizes back to last year's winnings. I think with them being off site made it a little harder to promote them.

[b]Tracker[/b]
+ I got told that incentives would be going up on Monday night, they didn't get put into the tracker until hours within' of marathon starting time. (Shoutouts to AlecK for contacting me on here). Due to this last minute process, the early games suffered a great deal. Had they been put into the tracker earlier, some of the incentives could have been met.

+ I tried my best in the IRC chat to promote the incentives. Kept trying to plug away at them.

[b]Chat[/b]
+ The IRC chat suffered from lack of moderators the first day. Nitrodon added me as a back up mod, then I added both Vulajin and Everhate on as back up mods before going to bed. This was quickly resolved the next day, woke up to a couple of more mods in chat. We're lucky that the IRC chat was sane, otherwise this would have been a big problem for us.

+ That said, HUGE shoutouts to people on site for putting up with my pokings with concerns that came up in chat. I.E., puwexil's mic becoming quiet (it had fallen off him and no one noticed), dealing with chat concerns and whatnot.

------------------

Vulajin: Just wanted to point out that puwexil and Essentia weren't the only two who had games thrown on them at the last minute, FFGamer and Sir VG had this happen to them as well, putting the four of them at three games each, not counting commentary duty.

Poxnor: I respect you and with more work, we can work out the knots from this year's C4L and make the next one grow and get better. Learn from your mistakes sir.

I have to disagree strongly with the deposit idea, it's just not fair to people signing up then needing to drop due to real life reasons. With the way how my life is right now, this makes me very hesitant on thinking of going next year, even if it's situated in the states.

If I think of anything else, I'll put it here later.

Tide

Edit history:

Tide: 2014-06-15 12:50:20 am

Tide: 2014-06-15 12:49:44 am

Tide: 2014-06-15 12:49:19 am

2014-06-15 12:48:14 am

Insanity Prelude

All criticism is good criticism when you can learn something from it. I don't think any of this is personal although the tone might come off as such. Apologies in advance if this is the case. But yeah, the common goal is to find the weaknesses and get them out for C4L2015. So here are my thoughts:

Twitch chat: I've talked it over with people both in Speedrunslive channels as well as just casual viewers, but the lack of twitch chat is a really big blow for donations. I didn't bring a computer so I couldn't really see what happened, but as others have said, I think restricting twitch chat right off the bat is more likely hamper then help. What JDRF wants to do will influence this, but if they are okay with it, I'm all for twitch chat being open.

Practice room vs. Stream room: I think the biggest reason why we had more people in the back than out front was simply because if you were in the stream area, you couldn't really socialize whereas there was no issue in the practice room. From reading some of the other comments, it sounds like noise control issue was of some concern in the main stream room and the practice room really didn't have this problem. People also got to nap in the practice room which probably wouldn't have looked very good on stream if we had people falling asleep.

Layout: One thing that someone told me was that the layout could probably be changed. We could probably use a smaller area for the player cam and have the game cam be larger since that's what people are ultimately around watching. I think the page navigation was also a bit of an issue - maybe just a regular twitch page would help.

Game Selection: I think on this whole, this was probably the coolest part of the marathon for me. We had lots of games from different consoles/eras and from various different series. As for the actual process, Puwexil's idea of conducting a Skype chat I think is a great idea. If you really want the "1 game per person thing", maybe you can also get everyone to throw in a back up game. That way when people drop, there's already a big list of things people have offered and we wouldn't be asking them to do it cold turkey. As a further aside, secondning Rini's point here. There were times when people were stuck in the practice room because they had to practice for 3 games as opposed to others who just had maybe 1. So having people throw in back-up games could help there too.

Communication and Scheduling: IMO, this was the biggest issue. As someone who is new, not hearing anything back from the organizer was a huge concern for me. I had to ask various other people regarding scheduling and working my IRL schedule and even then, the confirmation came only 1 month in advance. My total flight + food expenses + room expenses ended up being over a thousand for a 5 day trip, which is nuts. I was lucky that I could cut some of the costs down via having Aeroplan miles saved to cut the ticket costs. I think in the future, confirmation and just general notifications need to come earlier so people can say "yes" to a more defined set of terms. With everything coming so late, its difficult to plan around when there isn't any date/costs/time etc. to work around. IRL stuff happens yes, but to give a comparison, another con that I go to has planning done about a year in advance. That in turn works out a lot of the issues and people are more able to predict regarding finances/time.

Deposit idea: I'm in the pool that think this isn't a great idea. The main issue is similar to one game per person thing - it restricts attendance and options in advance. I know we're considered about drops, but I don't think this is the solution. From a participant's perspective and not an organizer, I feel like a cheaper hotel/venue might be the better answer.

All criticism is good criticism when you can learn something from it. I don't think any of this is personal although the tone might come off as such. Apologies in advance if this is the case. But yeah, the common goal is to find the weaknesses and get them out for C4L2015. So here are my thoughts:

Twitch chat: I've talked it over with people both in Speedrunslive channels as well as just casual viewers, but the lack of twitch chat is a really big blow for donations. I didn't bring a computer so I couldn't really see what happened, but as others have said, I think restricting twitch chat right off the bat is more likely hamper then help. What JDRF wants to do will influence this, but if they are okay with it, I'm all for twitch chat being open.

Practice room vs. Stream room: I think the biggest reason why we had more people in the back than out front was simply because if you were in the stream area, you couldn't really socialize whereas there was no issue in the practice room. From reading some of the other comments, it sounds like noise control issue was of some concern in the main stream room and the practice room really didn't have this problem. People also got to nap in the practice room which probably wouldn't have looked very good on stream if we had people falling asleep.

Layout: One thing that someone told me was that the layout could probably be changed. We could probably use a smaller area for the player cam and have the game cam be larger since that's what people are ultimately around watching. I think the page navigation was also a bit of an issue - maybe just a regular twitch page would help.

Game Selection: I think on this whole, this was probably the coolest part of the marathon for me. We had lots of games from different consoles/eras and from various different series. As for the actual process, Puwexil's idea of conducting a Skype chat I think is a great idea. If you really want the "1 game per  person thing", maybe you can also get everyone to throw in a back up game. That way when people drop, there's already a big list of things people have offered and we wouldn't be asking them to do it cold turkey. As a further aside, secondning Rini's point here. There were times when people were stuck in the practice room because they had to practice for 3 games as opposed to others who just had maybe 1. So having people throw in back-up games could help there too.

Communication and Scheduling: IMO, this was the biggest issue. As someone who is new, not hearing anything back from the organizer was a huge concern for me. I had to ask various other people regarding scheduling and working my IRL schedule and even then, the confirmation came only 1 month in advance. My total flight + food expenses + room expenses ended up being over a thousand for a 5 day trip, which is nuts. I was lucky that I could cut some of the costs down via having Aeroplan miles saved to cut the ticket costs. I think in the future, confirmation and just general notifications need to come earlier so people can say "yes" to a more defined set of terms. With everything coming so late, its difficult to plan around when there isn't any date/costs/time etc. to work around. IRL stuff happens yes, but to give a comparison, another con that I go to has planning done about a year in advance. That in turn works out a lot of the issues and people are more able to predict regarding finances/time.

Deposit idea: I'm in the pool that think this isn't a great idea. The main issue is similar to one game per person thing - it restricts attendance and options in advance. I know we're considered about drops, but I don't think this is the solution. From a participant's perspective and not an organizer, I feel like a cheaper hotel/venue might be the better answer.

Driscollad

2014-06-15 11:09:48 am

Ryan already knows my feedback, and it has already been brought up, namely twitch chat and deposits. I'm actually fine and dandy with a deposit, even a GDQ-style registration as one.

I'd like to thank Mike for the feedback, and also providing what I see as a realistic goal for next year: a cost cap of ~$325 per person. Some of the feedback suggests "just do what a GDQ would do" and I truly believe that's easier said than done. We are not a GDQ, not only because we simply didn't triple our total from last year, but also because 120 hours of 3+ hour games has a completely different atmosphere. Not everything will apply directly. The infrastructure is there, however, and we can grow C4L into an excellent compliment to the GDQ's. I'd love to talk with Mike more, as C4L could be the standard RPG haven, and take the pressure off him from "those damned Pokemon people."

We talked to JDRF the day after C4L wrapped, and they are acutely aware of the 2 biggest concerns. The first was cost, and they are already looking into a new venue should we host in Edmonton. Ryan has already looked into a potential venue for Vancouver. I'm good with either location. I actually prefer Vancouver. But a strong thought might be "which one comes in cheaper."

The second issue, and perhaps most important lesson learned this year, was communication. I know both sides to this story, and am very split personality regarding what the level of transparency should be. Yes, we absolutely failed at communicating updates. I can't defend it, and we have to improve tremendously next year. The hotel, and even JDRF, didn't fully understand what a Speedrunning marathon means logistically, so perhaps the urgency to finalize cost and details wasn't there. Passing on weekly updates of "still waiting for word" didn't seem productive to easing minds. We discussed it with Barb and Pat during the wind-up dinner, and they understood fully. Next year, there will be a drop dead date of 90 days prior for a guaranteed cost. How we'll do that, we'll learn, but it will happen. Weekly updates will happen. Finally, and most importantly, JDRF will include us in every single meeting with hotel management, so that we can echo attendee concerns directly.

Now for the part I deleted while drunk last night, and rewrote this morning...

SystemError: "Late dropout" is an understatement. It was 7 days before the event. Ryan personally ate your share of the hotel room costs. When you stated that you could not afford the hotel, but were still attending, he believed that was completely unfair to everyone in that room. Be disgusted all you want, but don't twist the truth. You tried backing out of PAYING way too late, and got called out on it.

Ginzuishou:You offered to supply a gaming PC, first during the C4L setup private thread, then the day we met with the hotel for the first time / at the Italian panini place. I could completely understand if it slipped mind, as we had a few too many methods of conversation going on (7 private threads, Messenger, text, tin can, pigeons, smoke signals, etc)

Ryan already knows my feedback, and it has already been brought up, namely twitch chat and deposits. I'm actually fine and dandy with a deposit, even a GDQ-style registration as one.

I'd like to thank Mike for the feedback, and also providing what I see as a realistic goal for next year: a cost cap of ~$325 per person. Some of the feedback suggests "just do what a GDQ would do" and I truly believe that's easier said than done. We are not a GDQ, not only because we simply didn't triple our total from last year, but also because 120 hours of 3+ hour games has a completely different atmosphere. Not everything will apply directly. The infrastructure is there, however, and we can grow C4L into an excellent compliment to the GDQ's. I'd love to talk with Mike more, as C4L could be the standard RPG haven, and take the pressure off him from "those damned Pokemon people."

We talked to JDRF the day after C4L wrapped, and they are acutely aware of the 2 biggest concerns. The first was cost, and they are already looking into a new venue should we host in Edmonton. Ryan has already looked into a potential venue for Vancouver. I'm good with either location. I actually prefer Vancouver. But a strong thought might be "which one comes in cheaper."

The second issue, and perhaps most important lesson learned this year, was communication. I know both sides to this story, and am very split personality regarding what the level of transparency should be. Yes, we absolutely failed at communicating updates. I can't defend it, and we have to improve tremendously next year. The hotel, and even JDRF, didn't fully understand what a Speedrunning marathon means logistically, so perhaps the urgency to finalize cost and details wasn't there. Passing on weekly updates of "still waiting for word" didn't seem productive to easing minds. We discussed it with Barb and Pat during the wind-up dinner, and they understood fully. Next year, there will be a drop dead date of 90 days prior for a guaranteed cost. How we'll do that, we'll learn, but it will happen. Weekly updates will happen. Finally, and most importantly, JDRF will include us in every single meeting with hotel management, so that we can echo attendee concerns directly.

Now for the part I deleted while drunk last night, and rewrote this morning...

SystemError: "Late dropout" is an understatement. It was 7 days before the event. Ryan personally ate your share of the hotel room costs. When you stated that you could not afford the hotel, but were still attending, he believed that was completely unfair to everyone in that room. Be disgusted all you want, but don't twist the truth. You tried backing out of PAYING way too late, and got called out on it.

Ginzuishou:You offered to supply a gaming PC, first during the C4L setup private thread, then the day we met with the hotel for the first time / at the Italian panini place. I could completely understand if it slipped mind, as we had a few too many methods of conversation going on (7 private threads, Messenger, text, tin can, pigeons, smoke signals, etc)

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2014-06-15 02:45:42 pm

Poxnor: 2014-06-15 02:28:57 pm

Poxnor: 2014-06-15 02:17:59 pm

2014-06-15 02:14:59 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

I would like to echo Loren's thanks to Mike for giving us a hard number to aim for. As mentioned, we already knew costs were, in an abstract sense, "too high...ish". Now, we actually have a number to aim for in negotiations. Thank you.

I also feel the single most constructive idea given is to present the Twitch chat directly to someone at JDRF. I don't have logs of the Twitch chat from 2013. Does anyone have them? I think (?), buried somewhere in my series of broken computers Tongue

, I have some copies of the worst stuff from 2013. But, that's not fair to the Twitch chat -- if I'm going to present it to JDRF, I have to present logs of the times it was just silly and spammy (which I'm 99.9% sure the charity, and myself, would be totally cool with), and the times it got bad (where I'm 95% sure the charity would take serious issue*). But, I like the idea of presenting it directly to the charity; I just need a way to present as honest and complete a representation as possible.

*Edit: I should justify why this is my assumption and why I put 95% confidence in it. This justification is not meant to imply that I won't bring the Twitch chat directly to JDRF, only to help people understand my line of thinking going into the 2014 marathon. There were three concerns JDRF had in 2013. Two of these were laughed off (as in, haha, this was funny, but maybe try not to do it again...unless the audience really loves it, or this is some weird part of gaming culture, or...unicorns?), and one was serious (as in, this really can't happen again). The first two were me being wasted on stream, and Shane being topless for his bonus game -- these were things that we could try to adjust, but ultimately JDRF said they got a laugh out of (sorry, I don't know what that implies about you, Shane Smiley

). The third, serious, issue, was using using terms as player or commentator like, "I raped that dungeon" or "That boss was his bitch". They're really concerned about the level of language used and its connection to their charity. That's why I specifically thought of some of the things in the Twitch chat that we were unable to mod effectively (compare to their cutoff level above) in 2013.

Again, just to conclude, I will present this issue directly to JDRF. That was very good feedback and an awesome suggestion. I just wanted people to understand my line of thought -- I wasn't laughing maniacally in a dark smoky room thinking about how to screw Twitch viewers Smiley

Cheers
--Ryan

I would like to echo Loren's thanks to Mike for giving us a hard number to aim for. As mentioned, we already knew costs were, in an abstract sense, "too high...ish". Now, we actually have a number to aim for in negotiations. Thank you.

I also feel the single most constructive idea given is to present the Twitch chat directly to someone at JDRF. I don't have logs of the Twitch chat from 2013. Does anyone have them? I think (?), buried somewhere in my series of broken computers :P , I have some copies of the worst stuff from 2013. But, that's not fair to the Twitch chat -- if I'm going to present it to JDRF, I have to present logs of the times it was just silly and spammy (which I'm 99.9% sure the charity, and myself, would be totally cool with), and the times it got bad (where I'm 95% sure the charity would take serious issue*). But, I like the idea of presenting it directly to the charity; I just need a way to present as honest and complete a representation as possible.

*Edit: I should justify why this is my assumption and why I put 95% confidence in it. This justification is [i]not[/i] meant to imply that I won't bring the Twitch chat directly to JDRF, only to help people understand my line of thinking going into the 2014 marathon. There were three concerns JDRF had in 2013. Two of these were laughed off (as in, haha, this was funny, but maybe try not to do it again...unless the audience really loves it, or this is some weird part of gaming culture, or...unicorns?), and one was serious (as in, this really can't happen again). The first two were me being wasted on stream, and Shane being topless for his bonus game -- these were things that we could try to adjust, but ultimately JDRF said they got a laugh out of (sorry, I don't know what that implies about you, Shane :) :) :) ). The third, serious, issue, was using using terms as player or commentator like, "I raped that dungeon" or "That boss was his bitch". They're really concerned about the level of language used and its connection to their charity. That's why I specifically thought of some of the things in the Twitch chat that we were unable to mod effectively (compare to their cutoff level above) in 2013.

Again, just to conclude, I will present this issue directly to JDRF. That was very good feedback and an awesome suggestion. I just wanted people to understand my line of thought -- I wasn't laughing maniacally in a dark smoky room thinking about how to screw Twitch viewers :)

Cheers
--Ryan

mikwuyma

2014-06-15 02:22:05 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Driscollad: Thanks for taking the time to respond.

One note about those costs, that's assuming staying the entire time and you are splitting the room with three other people. Obviously a king room for two would be more expensive.

I only think a deposit would work if it was a small one like 25-40 dollars, even then I'm not too sure about it, and this is coming from a guy who had to make last-minute arrangements at AGDQ because 3 people dropped less than a week before it started (and don't mention the sgdq drops this year). I've generally refunded people as long as they ask me before the marathon starts.

Location: This is something I didn't mention but other people touched upon. The two biggest places for RPG speedruns are the US and France, a lot of runners seem to come from either one of those two countries. If you really want this event to grow and cater to the runners, then you might have to move it to one of those two countries (more like the US being closer to you guys) since it would be more convenient for the majority of runners.

There are definitely some Canadian runners, like LCC and obdajr, but there are definitely more American and French rpg runners.

About SystemError and late dropouts: Shit happens, whether it's a legitimate reason or or laziness, it's going to happen, and emergency last-minute costs (medical, family, pets, etc.) do happen. Also, I wouldn't put the blame on him because the costs were posted so late it's not like he had a lot of time to properly budget.

Driscollad: Thanks for taking the time to respond.

One note about those costs, that's assuming staying the entire time and you are splitting the room with three other people. Obviously a king room for two would be more expensive.

I only think a deposit would work if it was a small one like 25-40 dollars, even then I'm not too sure about it, and this is coming from a guy who had to make last-minute arrangements at AGDQ because 3 people dropped less than a week before it started (and don't mention the sgdq drops this year). I've generally refunded people as long as they ask me before the marathon starts.

Location: This is something I didn't mention but other people touched upon. The two biggest places for RPG speedruns are the US and France, a lot of runners seem to come from either one of those two countries.  If you really want this event to grow and cater to the runners, then you might have to move it to one of those two countries (more like the US being closer to you guys) since it would be more convenient for the majority of runners.

There are definitely some Canadian runners, like LCC and obdajr, but there are definitely more American and French rpg runners.

About SystemError and late dropouts: Shit happens, whether it's a legitimate reason or or laziness, it's going to happen, and emergency last-minute costs (medical, family, pets, etc.) do happen. Also, I wouldn't put the blame on him because the costs were posted so late it's not like he had a lot of time to properly budget.

puwexil

Edit history:

puwexil: 2014-06-15 03:22:41 pm

puwexil: 2014-06-15 03:18:37 pm

2014-06-15 03:14:32 pm

Professional Second Banana

Yeah, having a location with lower travel costs for the majority of attendees (ie in the US) would be a great starting point towards an overall lower-cost event.

Also, if examples of the worst Twitch chat comments are going to be shown to JDRF, that should be done under the context that anyone who chats like that is going to be quickly banned by moderators (I'm guessing the JDRF representatives aren't really familiar with how online streams/chats work, and giving them the impression that trolls are given free reign to make sexist/racist/etc comments with no consequences is unfair).

Sir VG

2014-06-15 03:24:35 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

I don't think a deposit would be too big of a deal, as long as:

1. It's reasonable. Enough to make those that want to come are serious and not people signing up for the lulz.
2. It's refundable if there's a very good reason you can't come (e.g. Lag and Mercury being stuck in England due to the government keeping their passports too long is a fine example) or it's before a certain point in time (say 2 months in advance or so).

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2014-06-15 03:30:59 pm

2014-06-15 03:29:22 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Thanks, Adam. I completely agree that we should explain they'll be removed ASAP. The flip side of that is explaining that, especially during certain parts of the day, we probably won't have a sufficient number of people modding to remove trolls immediately. That was a problem in 2013.

Sir VG: 100% agreed. Any deposit (which I hear and acknowledge the objection to) would be small, like $20. I think that would separate the serious attendees for the why-not-sign-up crowd. And yes, I still stand by my statement that life happens (e.g., Lag and Mercury's passports, despite them making every effort otherwise to attend). Call it "dictator's discretion" to refund the deposit. The point isn't to screw potential attendees; the point is to eliminate the why-not signups. I'd probably (?) like to make the cutoff for "I don't want to attend anymore" (by which any deposit, if it happens, is required) something like 1-2 weeks after final costs are announced (which, as Loren mentioned, our goal is going to be 90 days before kickoff next year).

Thanks, Adam. I completely agree that we should explain they'll be removed ASAP. The flip side of that is explaining that, especially during certain parts of the day, we probably won't have a sufficient number of people modding to remove trolls immediately. That was a problem in 2013.

Sir VG: 100% agreed. Any deposit (which I hear and acknowledge the objection to) would be small, like $20. I think that would separate the serious attendees for the why-not-sign-up crowd. And yes, I still stand by my statement that life happens (e.g., Lag and Mercury's passports, despite them making every effort otherwise to attend). Call it "dictator's discretion" to refund the deposit. The point isn't to screw potential attendees; the point is to eliminate the why-not signups. I'd probably (?) like to make the cutoff for "I don't want to attend anymore" (by which any deposit, if it happens, is required) something like 1-2 weeks after final costs are announced (which, as Loren mentioned, our goal is going to be 90 days before kickoff next year).

MetaSigma

2014-06-15 04:17:46 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

As cheesy as this sounds and I'm only throwing this out because of it's closeness in location to Canada, why not Montana? Billings while not nearly the same as Denver is a nice place in terms of location. It's not to far from the border to Canada, it's kinda in a somewhat central location (vs say Vancouver where it's located much further west, or Edmonton which is far to the North). It would cater more towards the American RPG runners.

Poxnor

2014-06-15 04:25:57 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Because there's no major airport there, so it would certainly be more expensive. And, unless you're asking to take over, there's no organizer.

I appreciate all the feedback, I truly do. But, one statement that's final is: there are three choices -- it's in Edmonton, it's in Vancouver, or someone else needs to take over. I acknowledge that this might hurt growth, but this is a reality that cannot be changed.

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2014-06-15 05:00:05 pm

Poxnor: 2014-06-15 04:43:43 pm

2014-06-15 04:38:52 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

One thing I'm hearing is that we need to lower costs, especially for American attendees. That makes me inclined to look around more (i.e., this summer) for possible venues in Vancouver. Not only is YVR (Vancouver International) one of the larger hubs in North America (cheaper flights than to Edmonton/YEG), but if Americans are really looking to pinch pennies, they can fly to Seattle or Bellingham and take a bus to Vancouver (edit: yes, such a bus exists, and is dead cheap; look at a map if it's not obvious why).

And that would be a lot cheaper than holding it somewhere without a major airport.

Poxwife

2014-06-15 05:44:25 pm

A few words about the deposit issue...

1. C4L is not a GDQ and it never will be. RPGs are a niche interest, and therefore our marathon will ALWAYS be smaller than the GDQs. We are never going to have the same number of attendees as a GDQ, which means that when a single person drops out of C4L, it makes a much larger impact on the shared costs than it does if a single person drops out of a GDQ.

2. I see two potential ways that we can deal with registration and drop-outs next year.
(A) We fix the costs at the time of registration (as already mentioned, we acknowledge that we fixed the price too late this year, so next year the price will be fixed earlier - 90 days in advance of the marathon sounds like a good goal). In order to fix the price early, we will need stable attendance numbers, so we will need to ask for a deposit to make sure that people are serious about attending. Again, it doesn't need to be a large deposit, just something that will show that you're serious about attending.
(B) We don't ask for a deposit and allow late drop-outs. However, if we take this approach, we will not be able to fix the costs. Ryan and I covered late drop-outs out of our own pocket this year, but we are not willing to do this every year. It is not sustainable and not fair to us. We can set a target price at the time of registration based on our expected number of attendees, but if people drop out after the price is set, then the price for the remaining attendees will go up to compensate for the missing portions of the shared costs.

It makes no difference to us organizers whether we go with option A or option B. We are willing to put this to a vote - do you prefer to have a fixed price but pay a deposit, or do you prefer to avoid a deposit but face the possibility that your price may increase at the last minute?

A few words about the deposit issue...

1. C4L is not a GDQ and it never will be. RPGs are a niche interest, and therefore our marathon will [b]ALWAYS[/b] be smaller than the GDQs. We are never going to have the same number of attendees as a GDQ, which means that when a single person drops out of C4L, it makes a much larger impact on the shared costs than it does if a single person drops out of a GDQ.

2. I see two potential ways that we can deal with registration and drop-outs next year.
(A) We fix the costs at the time of registration (as already mentioned, we acknowledge that we fixed the price too late this year, so next year the price will be fixed earlier - 90 days in advance of the marathon sounds like a good goal). In order to fix the price early, we will need stable attendance numbers, so we will need to ask for a deposit to make sure that people are serious about attending. Again, it doesn't need to be a large deposit, just something that will show that you're serious about attending.
(B) We don't ask for a deposit and allow late drop-outs. However, if we take this approach, we will not be able to fix the costs. Ryan and I covered late drop-outs out of our own pocket this year, but we are not willing to do this every year. It is not sustainable and not fair to us. We can set a target price at the time of registration based on our expected number of attendees, but if people drop out after the price is set, then the price for the remaining attendees will go up to compensate for the missing portions of the shared costs.

It makes no difference to us organizers whether we go with option A or option B. We are willing to put this to a vote - do you prefer to have a fixed price but pay a deposit, or do you prefer to avoid a deposit but face the possibility that your price may increase at the last minute?

mikwuyma

2014-06-15 07:17:21 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Last thing about deposit. There was a time that GDQs only had 50-100 people, and there was still no deposit, I did charge a bit higher than cost to make up for drops and have a bit extra for equipment and the like. If you make the deposit small like 20-30 dollars then that sounds fine. I would make the deposit refund period at least somewhat forgiving though, like a month before the event.

Quote from Poxnor:

I appreciate all the feedback, I truly do. But, one statement that's final is: there are three choices -- it's in Edmonton, it's in Vancouver, or someone else needs to take over. I acknowledge that this might hurt growth, but this is a reality that cannot be changed.

Is this really the case? Romscout and I don't live near Denver, Colorado, and yet that's where SGDQ is happening because Colorado is a big international airport hub and closer to the West Coast than where we live (Chicago and DC respectively). Also, if staying in Edmonton or Vancouver does hurt growth, then what is C4L's purpose? I hope one purpose is to serve the RPG community.

Also, if you appreciate the feedback, then how about some of your thoughts on it?

Last thing about deposit. There was a time that GDQs only had 50-100 people, and there was still no deposit, I did charge a bit higher than cost to make up for drops and have a bit extra for equipment and the like. If you make the deposit small like 20-30 dollars then that sounds fine. I would make the deposit refund period at least somewhat forgiving though, like a month before the event.

[quote="Poxnor"]I appreciate all the feedback, I truly do. But, one statement that's final is: there are three choices -- it's in Edmonton, it's in Vancouver, or someone else needs to take over. I acknowledge that this might hurt growth, but this is a reality that cannot be changed.[/quote]

Is this really the case? Romscout and I don't live near Denver, Colorado, and yet that's where SGDQ is happening because Colorado is a big international airport hub and closer to the West Coast than where we live (Chicago and DC respectively). Also, if staying in Edmonton or Vancouver does hurt growth, then what is C4L's purpose? I hope one purpose is to serve the RPG community.

Also, if you appreciate the feedback, then how about some of your thoughts on it?

Poxnor

2014-06-15 08:11:25 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from mikwuyma:

Last thing about deposit. There was a time that GDQs only had 50-100 people, and there was still no deposit, I did charge a bit higher than cost

Okay, that's another option. I could also charge above cost. Thanks, Mike. That would be Option C to what Stef listed above.

Quote from mikwuyma:

If you make the deposit small like 20-30 dollars then that sounds fine. I would make the deposit refund period at least somewhat forgiving though, like a month before the event.

I would make the "for any reason whatsoever" period on the order of 1-2 weeks after cost was set (I could even make it more; shrug). The "holy crap life just destroyed us" (dictator's prerogative) basically the week before. There's a difference between "I'd like to drop out" and "I need to drop out because my passport didn't arrive."

Quote from mikwuyma:

Quote from Poxnor:

I appreciate all the feedback, I truly do. But, one statement that's final is: there are three choices -- it's in Edmonton, it's in Vancouver, or someone else needs to take over. I acknowledge that this might hurt growth, but this is a reality that cannot be changed.

Is this really the case? Romscout and I don't live near Denver, Colorado, and yet that's where SGDQ is happening because Colorado is a big international airport hub and closer to the West Coast than where we live (Chicago and DC respectively). Also, if staying in Edmonton or Vancouver does hurt growth, then what is C4L's purpose? I hope one purpose is to serve the RPG community.

Yes, that is the case that it's Edmonton, Vancouver, or someone else running an RPG marathon. One big concern this year was my communication with non-local entities being sub-optimum and hurting attendance. Those really are the three choices. I congratulate you and romscout for your amazing hosting of a non-local marathon. I know I can't do that. I don't feel like setting myself and C4L up for failure. Edmonton, Vancouver, or someone else runs an RPG marathon are the choices.

Quote from mikwuyma:

Also, if you appreciate the feedback, then how about some of your thoughts on it?

I did give my feedback previously, and I was criticized for being defensive. In the interest of making this a constructive dialogue, could you please ask which things I should give feedback on?

[quote="mikwuyma"]Last thing about deposit. There was a time that GDQs only had 50-100 people, and there was still no deposit, I did charge a bit higher than cost[/quote]
Okay, that's another option. I could also charge above cost. Thanks, Mike. That would be Option C to what Stef listed above.

[quote="mikwuyma"]If you make the deposit small like 20-30 dollars then that sounds fine. I would make the deposit refund period at least somewhat forgiving though, like a month before the event.[/quote]
I would make the "for any reason whatsoever" period on the order of 1-2 weeks after cost was set (I could even make it more; shrug). The "holy crap life just destroyed us" (dictator's prerogative) basically the week before. There's a difference between "I'd like to drop out" and "I need to drop out because my passport didn't arrive."

[quote="mikwuyma"][quote="Poxnor"]I appreciate all the feedback, I truly do. But, one statement that's final is: there are three choices -- it's in Edmonton, it's in Vancouver, or someone else needs to take over. I acknowledge that this might hurt growth, but this is a reality that cannot be changed.[/quote]

Is this really the case? Romscout and I don't live near Denver, Colorado, and yet that's where SGDQ is happening because Colorado is a big international airport hub and closer to the West Coast than where we live (Chicago and DC respectively). Also, if staying in Edmonton or Vancouver does hurt growth, then what is C4L's purpose? I hope one purpose is to serve the RPG community.[/quote]
Yes, that is the case that it's Edmonton, Vancouver, or someone else running an RPG marathon. One big concern this year was my communication with non-local entities being sub-optimum and hurting attendance. Those really are the three choices. I congratulate you and romscout for your amazing hosting of a non-local marathon. I know I can't do that. I don't feel like setting myself and C4L up for failure. Edmonton, Vancouver, or someone else runs an RPG marathon are the choices.

[quote="mikwuyma"]Also, if you appreciate the feedback, then how about some of your thoughts on it?[/quote]
I did give my feedback previously, and I was criticized for being defensive. In the interest of making this a constructive dialogue, could you please ask which things I should give feedback on?

Sir VG

2014-06-15 11:23:06 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

I will say with flights in the US, Southwest does fly to Seattle, so getting there would be probably a ton cheaper for US people, if we moved it to Vancouver.

Or if we took another suggestion made earlier, you could take a bus from Vancouver to Seattle and then do a flight from Seattle to Salt Lake City. Because Denton's cooking was awesome. And the drive from Montana isn't too bad either.

Just throwing that info out there. Honestly, it was nice to go to Canada if for nothing else to say I'VE BEEN TO CANADA. >_>;;

Poxnor

2014-06-16 06:55:37 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Perhaps we can wait until SGDQ is in the books (because I don't want to create a negative atmosphere around any other truly amazing marathons organized by other people), and then I can give thorough and thoughtful replies to everyone who wants them. Just know that sometimes my reply might disagree with the feedback given (for example, I know one point of contention is the Twitch chat, where I hear the feedback but still disagree -- that doesn't mean that I'm not listening, just that I might not always agree Smiley

)

I think a good approach might be that if people want immediate feedback on specific points, I can give it right away. Mike implied that he wants my opinion on some things right away. Otherwise, I can give it during the post-marathon period for what I'm sure will be an awesome SGDQ Smiley

Cheers
--Ryan

Omnigamer

2014-06-16 11:22:41 pm

All the things

I've tried to collect some of the main issues people have presented in the thread and summarized them below. I'll put a few of my own comments at the very end. In many of the cases, people are simply looking for acknowledgment and a plan for how it will be dealt with at a future event. I've probably missed some big points, but people can add to them as necessary.

======================

Attendance Expectations
Plenty of comments that the venue did not match the appropriate attendance. Trying to match growth is one thing, but pushing the venue to be at a hotel even with a generous growth forecast creates an extra cost burden on attendees without a full justification. Some posed solutions: host it somewhere where space and cost are not as much a concern, such as a community member's house; host it in a location where the hotel costs are lower; investigate other types of venues.

Late Venue & Cost Information
People were concerned about not knowing the upfront costs associated with the attendance or were insecure with the fact that a final venue was not announced throughout much of the planning process. Expenses can be planned for if they're known early on, but anxiety and doubt will do a lot to dissuade people even if they have the end funds. Having a bar set (ie "Puwexil's estimate") does not reassure people until details are finalized.

Communication Drought
There was minimal communication by organizers for about 2 months during the planning stage. This made a lot of people uncomfortable in trying to attend since it was uncertain that the event was still happening at all. Whether due to delegation issues or otherwise, critical questions went unanswered during this timeframe.

Late Drops
General thoughts are that it sucks when it happens, but it should be prepared for. Creating collateral for volunteers/attendees via deposits or otherwise is not a popular solution. This is partially related to cost; since this is a smaller event, each individual has that much more effect on the split. This is an additional reason to minimize venue costs and otherwise so that proportion shifting is not as severe. Coercion of late drops to cover some of the financial burden should also not be an option and reflects badly on the organization.

Tech and Inventory
Several shortcomings in equipment, including not communicating who is bringing what. Not having the right cables is also an oversight that should have been determined as soon as the venue was selected. Not following up on a sponsor offer to cover cable supplies also hurt.

Poxnor Channel vs C4L Channel
Several people have mentioned moving the marathon to its own stream rather than running it from Poxnor's personal channel. This seems like a logical step for an event that intends to grow beyond a small gathering. The impetus should be on having a "brand" to point people to; if somebody sees a tweet that says "Go watch Crystals4Life" it's not clear that they should be heading to Poxnor's stream instead and creates some confusion.

Sponsorship
Sponsorship is nice, but it seemed that efforts to find sponsors eclipsed other facets of the planning process.

Twitch Chat
General consensus is that twitch chat should be left in and not having it negatively impacted viewer retention and by extension donations. Leaving the decision up to JDRF is an option, but care must be taken in presenting the issue in an unbiased manner.

Late Prizes
Prizes were drawn a good deal after the event. On-stream draws during the marathon have been suggested to fill some downtime and keep viewers engaged. In addition, plugging prizes and incentives was an issue throughout.

Lack of Casual Space
Several people mentioned a lack of an eating or chill area. The practice room instead took on this role and caused some of the noise made it to the stream.

"One Game per Runner"
Seemed to hurt options overall and led to limited backup choices.

===========================

I was not involved as an attendee this year, but I followed its planning progression as a potential future attendee. Simply put, watching the planning and the actual event unfold made me less likely to try to attend next year. This primarily stems from the lack of communication and the delays in solidifying critical marathon details, but I am also surprised by the inflexibility of the organizers. If a big part of the issue was lack of time due to real life, that makes all the more reason to reach out to more of the community for solutions than trying to keep it close-knit. This is evident in the flat refusal to plan for a marathon at an alternative location. It is certainly possible and may in fact make the planning overall easier, for example having it at a community member's household. Expanding the organizing chain can help a lot in terms of accomplishing things such as remote location checks, cost checks, etc.

The tone of many responses also seems to be pushing for making attendees accountable for financial fluctuation. If it's intended to have an air of a fun community gathering it should find a way to be financially stable regardless of drops or unforeseen costs. I'm all for having people pay their fair share, but an up-front deposit system sends a message of exclusion rather than inclusion. It's almost like paying admission; you're putting in cash for the opportunity to play something for charity, as opposed to joining the community in celebrating your hobby. Even if the end costs are the same either way, a deposit system will only discourage people from getting involved in the event at all.

So in summary I feel like the event tried to grow too fast for its own good, and that sourced a lot of the problems mentioned above. Some critical decisions need to be made about how the event will be handled in the future, and people need to feel confident that the steps taken represent progress and meet their needs. If that progress isn't apparent, the community will naturally shy away from it and attempt to create something that does.

I've tried to collect some of the main issues people have presented in the thread and summarized them below. I'll put a few of my own comments at the very end. In many of the cases, people are simply looking for acknowledgment and a plan for how it will be dealt with at a future event. I've probably missed some big points, but people can add to them as necessary.

======================

[b]Attendance Expectations[/b]
Plenty of comments that the venue did not match the appropriate attendance. Trying to match growth is one thing, but pushing the venue to be at a hotel even with a generous growth forecast creates an extra cost burden on attendees without a full justification. Some posed solutions: host it somewhere where space and cost are not as much a concern, such as a community member's house; host it in a location where the hotel costs are lower; investigate other types of venues.

[b]Late Venue & Cost Information[/b]
People were concerned about not knowing the upfront costs associated with the attendance or were insecure with the fact that a final venue was not announced throughout much of the planning process. Expenses can be planned for if they're known early on, but anxiety and doubt will do a lot to dissuade people even if they have the end funds. Having a bar set (ie "Puwexil's estimate") does not reassure people until details are finalized.

[b]Communication Drought[/b]
There was minimal communication by organizers for about 2 months during the planning stage. This made a lot of people uncomfortable in trying to attend since it was uncertain that the event was still happening at all. Whether due to delegation issues or otherwise, critical questions went unanswered during this timeframe.

[b]Late Drops[/b]
General thoughts are that it sucks when it happens, but it should be prepared for. Creating collateral for volunteers/attendees via deposits or otherwise is not a popular solution. This is partially related to cost; since this is a smaller event, each individual has that much more effect on the split. This is an additional reason to minimize venue costs and otherwise so that proportion shifting is not as severe. Coercion of late drops to cover some of the financial burden should also not be an option and reflects badly on the organization.

[b]Tech and Inventory[/b]
Several shortcomings in equipment, including not communicating who is bringing what. Not having the right cables is also an oversight that should have been determined as soon as the venue was selected. Not following up on a sponsor offer to cover cable supplies also hurt.

[b]Poxnor Channel vs C4L Channel[/b]
Several people have mentioned moving the marathon to its own stream rather than running it from Poxnor's personal channel. This seems like a logical step for an event that intends to grow beyond a small gathering. The impetus should be on having a "brand" to point people to; if somebody sees a tweet that says "Go watch Crystals4Life" it's not clear that they should be heading to Poxnor's stream instead and creates some confusion.

[b]Sponsorship[/b]
Sponsorship is nice, but it seemed that efforts to find sponsors eclipsed other facets of the planning process.

[b]Twitch Chat[/b]
General consensus is that twitch chat should be left in and not having it negatively impacted viewer retention and by extension donations. Leaving the decision up to JDRF is an option, but care must be taken in presenting the issue in an unbiased manner.

[b]Late Prizes[/b]
Prizes were drawn a good deal after the event. On-stream draws during the marathon have been suggested to fill some downtime and keep viewers engaged. In addition, plugging prizes and incentives was an issue throughout.

[b]Lack of Casual Space[/b]
Several people mentioned a lack of an eating or chill area. The practice room instead took on this role and caused some of the noise made it to the stream.

[b]"One Game per Runner"[/b]
Seemed to hurt options overall and led to limited backup choices.

===========================

I was not involved as an attendee this year, but I followed its planning progression as a potential future attendee. Simply put, watching the planning and the actual event unfold made me less likely to try to attend next year. This primarily stems from the lack of communication and the delays in solidifying critical marathon details, but I am also surprised by the inflexibility of the organizers. If a big part of the issue was lack of time due to real life, that makes all the more reason to reach out to more of the community for solutions than trying to keep it close-knit. This is evident in the flat refusal to plan for a marathon at an alternative location. It is certainly possible and may in fact make the planning overall easier, for example having it at a community member's household. Expanding the organizing chain can help a lot in terms of accomplishing things such as remote location checks, cost checks, etc.

The tone of many responses also seems to be pushing for making attendees accountable for financial fluctuation. If it's intended to have an air of a fun community gathering it should find a way to be financially stable regardless of drops or unforeseen costs. I'm all for having people pay their fair share, but an up-front deposit system sends a message of exclusion rather than inclusion. It's almost like paying admission; you're putting in cash for the opportunity to play something for charity, as opposed to joining the community in celebrating your hobby. Even if the end costs are the same either way, a deposit system will only discourage people from getting involved in the event at all.

So in summary I feel like the event tried to grow too fast for its own good, and that sourced a lot of the problems mentioned above. Some critical decisions need to be made about how the event will be handled in the future, and people need to feel confident that the steps taken represent progress and meet their needs. If that progress isn't apparent, the community will naturally shy away from it and attempt to create something that does.

Alko

2014-06-17 10:32:26 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

I do have some more feedback to add, that I didn't put into my initial post. Mainly entirely or semi responding to what has been said here.

Game selection:
I know I'm assuming stuff here, but if I recall correctly, the 'one game per runner' policy actually initiated the other way around: Not restrict every runner who signed up to one game, but rather attempting to allow each and every runner to run at least one game. Round one of the reviews then attempted to evaluate the games every runner submitted into first choice, second choice etc. It just happened that with all those first choice games we accidentally were extremely close to the desired estimate, promting Poxnor and whoever was co-organising in his shadow to not think about game selection much more.
Of course, as time happened, some people got removed in round two (e.g. me), while other people had real life happening (examples in this thread) and all of a sudden the marathon was short on games without adequate replacement.

So to my understanding, the problem with game suggestions wasn't exactly the 'every submitting runner gets a game' (or 1G1R, as it's been said in this thread) but rather the failure to actually plan in backup games right when game selection was happening.
Just as a counter example: ESA13 did its best to also fulfill 'every runner gets a game', while not necessarily restricting it to one game a runner. (Indeed, Bangerra got in every game he submitted, and even Neviutz had two different JRPGs — although admittedly they were short by his standards xD) Because there were enough backup options for dropping out runners (until the worst case actually happened and someone had to cancel while the marathon was already happening), we were able to still keep a strong schedule, without burdening too many people (save Bangerra, who didn't even want to have all his games in).

Twitch channel:
Absolute yes please towards a seperate Crystals channel, just like *GDQs are streamed from SpeeddemosarchiveSDA (if I got the channel name correct). It was perfect to host it on Poxnor's channel for 2013, because the marathon was all new and such. It was getting weird-ish this year, but if it's repeated, we definitely need to move on from a private Twitch, regardless of whether Pox continues organisation or not.

Prizes and stuff:
Rin, you said you were doing the donation station like 95 % of the time last year. I don't believe you, because between us that would make 145 % or more of the time Wink

But that said, I also realised that last year, whenever I was doing donation processing and reading in 2013, I made note to plug the prizes regularly, especially if there was a low in donations. I waved the prize cam across the table and when I got back, I had about ten to twenty new donations immediately, with more coming a few seconds later. So yes, plugging the prizes makes a massive difference, and if it didn't happen, it needs to be a very bolded bullet point on next year's hosting cheat sheet (assuming you had a cheat sheet this year).

Deposits/price:
Much has been said about this, but I don't know if an intercontinental possible attendee gave their opinion. Deposits (or sign-up fees) are fine if they are low (Mike said 25 – 40$, which sounds like a very reasonable amount) and reimbursement happens along well-understandable dictatorship guidelines. (If someone's passport doesn't arrive a week before the event, as we heard in this thread, then yeah, that qualifies Wink

I have full faith in Pox' judgement ability here.)
It's not entirely comparable, because Ludendi is relatively lucky with relatively cheap space around them, but the venue fee for ESA is 25 € for the whole event. You can either add hotel costs to that or mass housing costs, the latter being only 15 €. Just to throw some other numbers out there Wink

Location:
I don't have too strong an opinion on what would qualify as a good location. Seeing from Europe, Canada has a major advantage namely not requiring US border clearance. Vancouver and Edmonton both have that advantage. It's slightly easier to get to Vancouver, as there are direct flights from major European airports (most notably Heathrow, from where I flew in last year), and you don't have to worry about missing your connection due to customs (which I was scared of happening last year). Of course, Vancouver is less likely to have a blizzard, so that's a definite minus Tongue

If you do decide to hold it in the US, (from what Poxnor's saying, that would require a different head organiser — I'm totally with him there; there's a reason why Edenal's only so much of a head organiser for ESA, him living a good 120 miles (~200 km) away from Skövde) I believe every location that has an airport is equal, with slight benifits for places such as New York, Chicago, Miami, Denver and whatever else has direct connections to our continent.
If I'm asked for my personal opinion, I'm gonna say Edmonton (because I still haven't been to Jasper, and I believe that's closer to Edmonton than to Vancouver, right? Wink

) > Vancouver > Essentia's place (thank you so much for the offer!) > other places in the US.
(I just did a ve~ry quick and minor check of prices from Heathrow to Salt Lake City, Denver, Chicago, Edmonton and Vancouver for random dates in August. They're more or less equivalent, except for Edmonton, which for some reason was £100 more (don't ask me why I checked prices in pound sterling Tongue

))

I do have some more feedback to add, that I didn't put into my initial post. Mainly entirely or semi responding to what has been said here.

Game selection:
I know I'm assuming stuff here, but if I recall correctly, the 'one game per runner' policy actually initiated the other way around: Not restrict every runner who signed up to one game, but rather attempting to allow each and every runner to run [i]at least[/i] one game. Round one of the reviews then attempted to evaluate the games every runner submitted into first choice, second choice etc. It just happened that with all those first choice games we accidentally were extremely close to the desired estimate, promting Poxnor and whoever was co-organising in his shadow to not think about game selection much more.
Of course, as time happened, some people got removed in round two (e.g. me), while other people had real life happening (examples in this thread) and all of a sudden the marathon was short on games without adequate replacement.

So to my understanding, the problem with game suggestions wasn't exactly the 'every submitting runner gets a game' (or 1G1R, as it's been said in this thread) but rather the failure to actually plan in backup games [i]right when game selection was happening[/i].
Just as a counter example: ESA13 did its best to also fulfill 'every runner gets a game', while not necessarily restricting it to one game a runner. (Indeed, Bangerra got in every game he submitted, and even Neviutz had two different JRPGs — although admittedly they were short by his standards xD) Because there were enough backup options for dropping out runners (until the worst case actually happened and someone had to cancel while the marathon was already happening), we were able to still keep a strong schedule, without burdening too many people (save Bangerra, who didn't even want to have all his games in).

Twitch channel:
Absolute [i]yes please[/i] towards a seperate Crystals channel, just like *GDQs are streamed from SpeeddemosarchiveSDA (if I got the channel name correct). It was perfect to host it on Poxnor's channel for 2013, because the marathon was all new and such. It was getting weird-ish this year, but if it's repeated, we definitely need to move on from a private Twitch, regardless of whether Pox continues organisation or not.

Prizes and stuff:
Rin, you said you were doing the donation station like 95 % of the time last year. I don't believe you, because between us that would make 145 % or more of the time ;) But that said, I also realised that last year, whenever I was doing donation processing and reading in 2013, I made note to plug the prizes regularly, especially if there was a low in donations. I waved the prize cam across the table and when I got back, I had about ten to twenty new donations immediately, with more coming a few seconds later. So yes, plugging the prizes makes a [b]massive[/b] difference, and if it didn't happen, it needs to be a very bolded bullet point on next year's hosting cheat sheet (assuming you had a cheat sheet this year).

Deposits/price:
Much has been said about this, but I don't know if an intercontinental possible attendee gave their opinion. Deposits (or sign-up fees) are fine if they are low (Mike said 25 – 40$, which sounds like a very reasonable amount) and reimbursement happens along well-understandable dictatorship guidelines. (If someone's passport doesn't arrive a week before the event, as we heard in this thread, then yeah, that qualifies ;) I have full faith in Pox' judgement ability here.)
It's not entirely comparable, because Ludendi is relatively lucky with relatively cheap space around them, but the venue fee for ESA is 25 € for the whole event. You can either add hotel costs to that or mass housing costs, the latter being only 15 €. Just to throw some other numbers out there ;)

Location:
I don't have too strong an opinion on what would qualify as a good location. Seeing from Europe, Canada has a major advantage namely not requiring US border clearance. Vancouver and Edmonton both have that advantage. It's slightly easier to get to Vancouver, as there are direct flights from major European airports (most notably Heathrow, from where I flew in last year), and you don't have to worry about missing your connection due to customs (which I was scared of happening last year). Of course, Vancouver is less likely to have a blizzard, so that's a definite minus :P
If you do decide to hold it in the US, (from what Poxnor's saying, that would require a different head organiser — I'm totally with him there; there's a reason why Edenal's only so much of a head organiser for ESA, him living a good 120 miles (~200 km) away from Skövde) I believe every location that has an airport is equal, with slight benifits for places such as New York, Chicago, Miami, Denver and whatever else has direct connections to our continent.
If I'm asked for my personal opinion, I'm gonna say Edmonton (because I still haven't been to Jasper, and I believe that's closer to Edmonton than to Vancouver, right? ;) ) > Vancouver > Essentia's place (thank you so much for the offer!) > other places in the US.
(I just did a ve~ry quick and minor check of prices from Heathrow to Salt Lake City, Denver, Chicago, Edmonton and Vancouver for random dates in August. They're more or less equivalent, except for Edmonton, which for some reason was £100 more (don't ask me why I checked prices in pound sterling :P ))

thadarkman78

Edit history:

thadarkman78: 2014-06-18 09:22:47 am

thadarkman78: 2014-06-18 09:18:59 am

2014-06-18 09:18:32 am

Quote from mikwuyma:

Is this really the case? Romscout and I don't live near Denver, Colorado, and yet that's where SGDQ is happening because Colorado is a big international airport hub and closer to the West Coast than where we live (Chicago and DC respectively). Also, if staying in Edmonton or Vancouver does hurt growth, then what is C4L's purpose? I hope one purpose is to serve the RPG community.

Also, if you appreciate the feedback, then how about some of your thoughts on it?

Don't really think that's a fair argument when you consider UA lives in Denver. Ignoring the fact that it would make no sense as things stand now, if you had to, would you be comfortable with even considering hosting a GDQ in Charlotte, NC?

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2014-06-18 12:19:47 pm

Omnigamer: 2014-06-18 12:18:30 pm

Omnigamer: 2014-06-18 12:17:43 pm

2014-06-18 12:15:42 pm

All the things

Quote from thadarkman78:

Don't really think that's a fair argument when you consider UA lives in Denver. Ignoring the fact that it would make no sense as things stand now, if you had to, would you be comfortable with even considering hosting a GDQ in Charlotte, NC?

I can't speak directly for Mike, but part of organizer duties is leveraging contacts. Mike or Rom may not have been able to check out Denver hotels personally, but they know others who can assist them with it remotely. In prior SGDQs this was helped by Essentia and her family offering up their house as a marathon location. As a direct response to your question, there's no reason Charlotte or any other reasonably-sized hub would be excluded straight from the start, but it goes into the same process of figuring out pros and cons to decide what makes the most sense for the event.

C4L shouldn't be much different in that regard. The RPG community covers a wide geographical range; reaching out to willing volunteers can help a tremendous amount in gathering information and setting up an event without the primary organizer's physical presence.

[quote="thadarkman78"]

Don't really think that's a fair argument when you consider UA lives in Denver. Ignoring the fact that it would make no sense as things stand now, if you had to, would you be comfortable with even considering hosting a GDQ in Charlotte, NC?[/quote]

I can't speak directly for Mike, but part of organizer duties is leveraging contacts. Mike or Rom may not have been able to check out Denver hotels personally, but they know others who can assist them with it remotely. In prior SGDQs this was helped by Essentia and her family offering up their house as a marathon location. As a direct response to your question, there's no reason Charlotte or any other reasonably-sized hub would be excluded straight from the start, but it goes into the same process of figuring out pros and cons to decide what makes the most sense for the event.

C4L shouldn't be much different in that regard. The RPG community covers a wide geographical range; reaching out to willing volunteers can help a tremendous amount in gathering information and setting up an event without the primary organizer's physical presence.

thadarkman78

2014-06-18 07:43:52 pm

Well yes of course things like contracts can be done remotely; I wasn't suggesting that UA is like the guy that handles everything because he lives there, but my point is that the overall process of hosting an event goes smoother if you have someone you trust that lives in that area. I don't really think it's fair to say that Denver = a remotely hosted event when I don't think that's entirely true.

All I'm trying to say is Poxnor hosting it in say Oklahoma wouldn't exactly be the same as SGDQ in Denver, not to overstate or understate any difficulties of hosting SGDQ where it is now.