Braid

2013-03-23 04:44:31 pm

Hi,

I'm starting working on a TAS run of Braid. It runs quite well with hourglass, a software that implements TAS features on "simple" windows games.
I've done much of World 2, you can see all videos and stuff on a GitHub repository I created to store the files (https://github.com/clementgallet/braidTAS).

Thanks Archanfel for making this route video, it will make my life simpler Smiley

However, in the comments of your video on youtube, someone suggested that the last gap in 2-4 could be crossed without the goomba ?

I also found a nice skip on stage 3-4, using a corner and a jump just after.

Archanfel

2013-03-23 06:04:32 pm

Oh my god it the best news i ever hear!!
I very long time waited what someone will do TAS of this wonderfull game!

Also try to this tricks. I tried them a lot but fail. However usually just a few pixel not enough, so may be some of them are possible for TAS:

1)Penetrate under the girder at 2-1.
2)Upper path 4-2.
3)Long jump at 5-3.
4)I hope is possible to complete room 6-2 from left side.

Get minor acceleration jump by time reverse at 3-8 (video)

Attachments:

BRAID-4.bmp

BRAID-5.bmp

keylie

2013-03-24 03:18:43 am

Thanks for the ideas. However, I couldn't get any to work :(.
The long jump at 5-3 seems the most promising, but the configuration of the edge is so that you cannot do the jump in air like in 3-4.
Also, I'm TASing the regular game (not the time attack), so I will probably use some different routes because I can quit the stage and go back. For example, I can take the first puzzle piece in 3-6 from the start, because I don't bother dying.

Archanfel

Edit history:

Archanfel: 2013-03-24 05:56:41 am

Archanfel: 2013-03-24 05:56:12 am

Archanfel: 2013-03-24 05:25:21 am

Archanfel: 2013-03-24 05:17:47 am

2013-03-24 05:17:17 am

Pity that no one of them not work, but at least you tried it Roll Eyes

Why regular game? It a weak choise of category... Undecided

Speedrun-mode (time-attack) is much more interesting goal for this game. May be easily possible to paste the same input without re-doing? Please think about it once again.
And also in speedrun-mode timer is stop at solving puzzles between the worlds - so in this case you can not worring about using mouse to solve them optimally.

But anyway good luck with your TAS at any mode which you prefer! I will look forward your progress.

---
+Oh, I yesterday forget to propose use ladder-glitch to skip key at 2-2. Most likely it will not work too, but it worth to try.

Quote from keylie:

But don't worry, I will probably also make a time attack TAS Smiley

EDIT: Two TASes is even better then one!!

keylie

Edit history:

keylie: 2013-03-24 05:53:45 am

2013-03-24 05:52:41 am

The problem about the time attack mode is that you have to complete the game to have access to it. If I want to submit it to TASVideos, I have to use the game without any save. And it may be faster, even with the puzzles and the loading screens.
But don't worry, I will probably also make a time attack TAS Smiley

EDIT: I already tried this skip at 2-2, not even close Sad

Patashu

2013-03-24 06:02:34 am

Tasvideos rules allows you to start from a save, if you can also provide a 'verification movie' that results in that save. Your regular game TAS, for example, could be it.

Archanfel

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Archanfel: 2013-03-24 12:34:38 pm

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Archanfel: 2013-03-24 06:19:36 am

2013-03-24 06:15:26 am

In case if you can use cloud exit in regular game - probably faster to use it to jump from 2-2bis directly to 2-4 (skip walking at 2-3).

Or even this crazy sequence (or similar variants):
2-1 => 2-2 => 2-3(no puzzle) => 2-4(all) => cloud => 2-4(re-exit) => 2-3(p) => cloud => 2-3(re-exit) => 2-2bis => HOME.

Archanfel

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Archanfel: 2013-03-24 07:51:46 am

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Archanfel: 2013-03-24 07:13:22 am

2013-03-24 07:07:03 am

Quote from keylie:

The long jump at 5-3 seems the most promising, but the configuration of the edge is so that you cannot do the jump in air like in 3-4.

Good news - it possible! I did it:

keylie

Edit history:

keylie: 2013-03-24 10:24:46 am

2013-03-24 09:45:25 am

What I did was
2-1 => 2-2 => 2-3(no puzzle) => 2-4(re-exit) => 2-3(p) => cloud => 2-3(re-exit) => 2-2bis => cloud => 2-4(all) => HOME.
which is pretty much the same.

About your jump, wow!!!! I see you are going back just before landing, I didn't try this...

EDIT: I finished world 2

Archanfel

Edit history:

Archanfel: 2013-03-24 03:57:36 pm

Archanfel: 2013-03-24 03:57:26 pm

2013-03-24 12:34:17 pm

World 2 was very cool!! I can't wait continue Cheesy

Btw, probably you already know - if again use menu in clouds it is possible to exit directly to home.

---

Quote from keylie:

For example, I can take the first puzzle piece in 3-6 from the start, because I don't bother dying.

I always felt curiosity - which route for this room is the fastest with cloud-exits:

Simple { 3-6(1p) => cloud => 3-6(3p) => 3-7 } or
Complicated { 3-6(1p) => cloud => 3-6(just walk) => 3-7 => cloud => 3-6(3p) => cloud => 3-7 } ?

---
P.S. Also test my insane strategy for 5-4, i believe that it can be a bit faster than normal method:

Some time ago i designed this route specifically for TAS Roll Eyes

keylie

Edit history:

keylie: 2013-03-25 04:52:42 am

keylie: 2013-03-25 04:43:07 am

2013-03-25 04:21:36 am

Really nice route!
I was also wondering for stage 6-6 if it would be faster to head directly to the second part of the room, collect the two puzzle pieces, and then go to the first part using the upper (star) route. What do you think ?
Moreover, I can go to the exit door at the beginning, so that after taking the last puzzle piece, I can warp to the next stage.

EDIT: Here is world 3 stages 1-3
3-1 may be optimal Smiley

3-2 is improvable. When I first take the rope, I can move diagonally on the right then on the left to gain some time after rewinding. And the top portion is maybe not optimal either.
I improved 3-3 by 0.5 seconds since I recorded the video, but the route is the same. I may still gain some time on the first part by a faster jump between clouds 2 and 3.
Also, there is a little cloud glitch seen on the beginning of this stage that allows you to teleport to the plateform instantly, I should investigate it. If I'm fast enough on the first portion, I may be able to reproduce it on the second portion, because the cloud there just vanish when I arrive. This would gain some more time...

Really nice route!
I was also wondering for stage 6-6 if it would be faster to head directly to the second part of the room, collect the two puzzle pieces, and then go to the first part using the upper (star) route. What do you think ?
Moreover, I can go to the exit door at the beginning, so that after taking the last puzzle piece, I can warp to the next stage.

EDIT: Here is [url=http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57820665/braid_3-123.mkv]world 3 stages 1-3[/url]
3-1 may be optimal :)
3-2 is improvable. When I first take the rope, I can move diagonally on the right then on the left to gain some time after rewinding. And the top portion is maybe not optimal either.
I improved 3-3 by 0.5 seconds since I recorded the video, but the route is the same. I may still gain some time on the first part by a faster jump between clouds 2 and 3.
Also, there is a little cloud glitch seen on the beginning of this stage that allows you to teleport to the plateform instantly, I should investigate it. If I'm fast enough on the first portion, I may be able to reproduce it on the second portion, because the cloud there just vanish when I arrive. This would gain some more time...

Archanfel

Edit history:

Archanfel: 2013-03-25 12:46:22 pm

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2013-03-25 06:46:55 am

Quote from keylie:

I was also wondering for stage 6-6 if it would be faster to head directly to the second part of the room, collect the two puzzle pieces, and then go to the first part using the upper (star) route. What do you think ?
Moreover, I can go to the exit door at the beginning, so that after taking the last puzzle piece, I can warp to the next stage.

Yeah, earlier i thought a lot about this path for 6-6, but unfortunately problem is that: when ladder is going up - it erase last piece which was gotten.

Most likely for 6-6 best route is look like:
6-6(1) => cloud => 6-6 (just walk) => 6-7 => 6-6(2-3) => cloud => 6-7.

Star-path is much faster. (And much cooler Tongue

).

+ One question about World 2: Did you try to exploit corners at 2-2 to get additional acceleration jumps?

P.S. Your 3-3 is just brilliant!! Watching at it i feel real power of TAS Shocked

keylie

Edit history:

keylie: 2013-03-25 08:12:51 am

keylie: 2013-03-25 08:12:41 am

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keylie: 2013-03-25 07:49:51 am

2013-03-25 07:47:00 am

For 6-6 star route, what about:
1. from the left time-immune platform, jump to the ladder that is falling down. All the following must be done in time immune state (which lasts what? 1-2 seconds?)
2. rewind enough to be able to jump to the puzzle piece, then jump
3. continue rewinding until the ladder is up, just before (well, after) the lever is activated
4. only then, take the puzzle piece
5. fast-forward to move the ladder down, just enough so that you can climb it
6. rewind to move the ladder up, but not too much so that you keep the puzzle piece
7. jump on the left

I think there is not time to do all this in time immune state, but you could jump to the time-immune platform between steps 4 and 5.

EDIT: you're right, the beginning of 2-2 is not optimal. I'm wondering if you could gain enough time so that you can skip a cloud? Yeah, I think so, clouds are close to each other, and you could easily do a corner jump there.

keylie

Edit history:

keylie: 2013-03-25 08:22:59 am

2013-03-25 08:20:53 am

When in time-immune state, does moving platforms accelerated by rewinding/fast-forwarding still give you extra velocity when jumping? If so, you could reach insane speed with a 8x moving platform !!

Archanfel

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2013-03-25 08:56:30 am

EDIT: You're right, star-path routr for 6-6 is possible! (It tried it harder, and did it).
P.S. Good luck with skipping cloud at 2-2. It seems very possible.

Double update: Huge skip is arrived Shocked

At star path at 6-6 i found a way how is possible to skip all boring part with lowering ring on the lift !!!
It was the longest and the most boring part in whole game. And now this part will absent in TAS.

It save about 20-30 seconds for time attack mode. (And even more with using cloud exit).

I will do video tomorrow.

palfo

2013-03-25 09:54:55 am

very promising stuff guys. Love all the routes I've seen so far.
I wonder if you think any of these TAS tricks can be done relatively consistent (consistent enough for single segment)?

keylie

Edit history:

keylie: 2013-03-26 03:01:27 am

keylie: 2013-03-26 03:00:29 am

keylie: 2013-03-26 03:00:15 am

keylie: 2013-03-25 12:53:10 pm

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keylie: 2013-03-25 12:48:20 pm

2013-03-25 12:47:15 pm

Wow !! I can't wait for it !!
In the meantime, here are videos of failed skips, from your suggestion. I think 2-1 is theoretically impossible as it seems that there is a rock inside the platform.

2-1

4-2

5-5

Archanfel

Edit history:

Archanfel: 2013-04-23 01:47:05 am

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2013-03-25 01:36:04 pm

Quote from keylie:

Wow !! I can't wait for it !!

Yeah, it so cool that i not waited tomorrow and recorded it today Grin

To show full route for this room at beginning i added old video by foaloal of getting one piece. (I always was lazy to do this part).

New improvement in which involved "Star path" is starts at 0:40.
My idea is to use lift to push the key through platform and then get it below.

+For speedrun mode (without using cloud-exit), after getting last piece "rewind + forward-rewind" trick should be used once again to be back on green platform with keeping this piece. It faster then simple walking.
---
Btw now i sure for 100% that optimal "in-game time" for speed run mode is sub24 mins. (I very hope that keylie will do for us TAS of this mode too Roll Eyes

)
Edit:(a week after.): Even sub 23. Tongue

Edit:(yet 2 weeks later): Most likely sub 22. Shocked

Patashu

2013-03-25 04:23:58 pm

Wow! Very clever Cheesy

Freid

2013-03-25 04:49:15 pm

Unbelievable Shocked

keylie

2013-03-26 03:05:11 am

Wouah. The key trick is so clever!!

Archanfel

2013-03-26 11:23:54 am

"Rewind + forward rewind" should be tested in two other places in game:
1)At 3-8 after getting last piece (only for speed run mode).

Unassisted tests said that it a bit slower than normal upper way, but it mean nothing, because of TAS-8x-rewind is a faster then human can do - so here more exact testing needed.

2)And one more time at 6-6 after pulling lever (for both mode).

Not sure, can it save time or not, but it worth to try.
+May be here is possible to keep balance on the corner and to fall on the moving platform during rewind. No doubt, these moving platforms, lever and ladder will be very hard for optimisation.

keylie

2013-03-26 02:18:20 pm

Well, you could use this trick for 6-7 as well, but saving like 3 seconds Smiley

Still working on 4-2, still failing, but closer:

The thing is that it not only depends on Tim's position, but sometimes, very rarely, the goomba is not falling directly but is walking in the air during one frame, so its position is a bit higher in this case. I will make a video to show the difference. Sometimes, I could get it to walk during two frames, but it happens once, and I wasn't perfectly placed myself...

Archanfel

Edit history:

Archanfel: 2013-03-26 11:30:51 pm

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2013-03-26 03:20:55 pm

Quote from keylie:

Well, you could use this trick for 6-7 as well, but saving like 3 seconds Smiley

Good. I guess you mean 6-6? I completely forgot that in 6-7 yet one green thing Tongue

Yes, it worth to try too (for speedrun mode).

+At 6-7 try also to fall thru ladder using green fluid effect, not at right side as usual.

It would be crazy if by use green-rewind is possible to gain enought time here to skip putting ring under the key fall!?
---
Aarrgh your 4-2 is so close now! Would be really great if it is possible.

Quote from keylie:

The thing is that it not only depends on Tim's position, but sometimes, very rarely, the goomba is not falling directly but is walking in the air during one frame

Yeah, at World 4 goombas can have a bit different position for a +/- 1-2 (3!?) pixels. So may be some glitchy way is exist to reach success. Good luck!
---
+Two minor things about room 6-5 Impassable Foliage.

1)For route with clouds-exits ring can be used to allow 2 goomba being synchrone for nice double jump.
I think for TAS is possible to do this double-jump by putting ring only for few frames (or may be even without ring.)
2)And for both mode - long time ago foaloal also proposed to try use only one goomba to jump from middle platform to upper star path at (but without tools it was failed).

[quote="keylie"]Well, you could use this trick for 6-7 as well, but saving like 3 seconds :)[/quote]
Good. I guess you mean 6-6? I completely forgot that in 6-7 yet one green thing :P Yes, it worth to try too (for speedrun mode).[hidden][URL=http://hostingkartinok.com][IMG]http://s6.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2013/03/0349bf30be924b92000d211cfa2d4cbd.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/hidden]+At 6-7 try also to fall thru ladder using green fluid effect, not at right side as usual.[hidden][URL=http://hostingkartinok.com][IMG]http://s6.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2013/03/58aec85eba78b018024f4d9f05a9cd08.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/hidden]It would be crazy if by use green-rewind is possible to gain enought time here to skip putting ring under the key fall!?
---
Aarrgh your 4-2 is so close now! Would be really great if it is possible.
[quote="keylie"]The thing is that it not only depends on Tim's position, but sometimes, very rarely, the goomba is not falling directly but is walking in the air during one frame[/quote]Yeah, at World 4 goombas can have a bit different position for a +/- 1-2 (3!?) pixels. So may be some glitchy way is exist to reach success. Good luck!
---
+Two minor things about room 6-5 Impassable Foliage.

1)For route with clouds-exits ring can be used to allow 2 goomba being synchrone for nice [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elsBeWDWrSU]double jump[/url].
I think for TAS is possible to do this double-jump by putting ring only for few frames (or may be even without ring.)
2)And for both mode - long time ago foaloal also proposed to try use only one goomba to jump from middle platform to upper star path at (but without tools it was failed).

keylie

2013-03-27 10:47:55 am

For 4-2 I think it might possible to get it with a perfect jump.

About world 3 boss, it is possible to wake him by climbing first, fall then rewind. It might save 1-2 seconds.