BioShock 2

2012-02-07 08:50:54 pm

so happy to hear the glitch i discovered was replicated and not as difficult to execute as i initially expected. like paraxade i look forward to any progress you make running this.

Blood Thunder

2013-03-29 10:50:15 am

I've looked around for a full run of this game, as I'd love to start putting some time into it. The lowest I could manage to find is a 2:13:46 on youtube, but seeing as it didn't involve death warps and is now well over 2 years old, does anyone know of a faster time? If not I guess I'll just have to borrow upon some of the videos cortez has so kindly put up and route the rest of the game myself.

I won't be going at this game as heavily as I did the 1st one, but I do plan on getting this time down quite low. 2 hours just seems like a long time for this game.

cortez

2013-03-29 11:38:46 am

Stalker!

you need to do a lot a research especially in the later levels. they are not as linear as in bioshock. I guess there are some tricks too.

sub 2 hours is easily possible

Blood Thunder

2013-04-07 01:04:15 pm

I've completed my 1st official run for BioShock 2, and even broke the 2 hour mark with a time of 1:56:14. I haven't messed around with the audio skipping quite yet so that should shave off quite a bit of time and I've not looked for any potential skips other although I do see a few spots where a skip should be possible.

the 1:56:14 run. http://www.twitch.tv/bl00d_thunder/c/2125545

If I can manage to get better at conserving ammo and not needing to buy more every other area, that should also help to reduce this time. My goal for now is to get a sub 1:30:00.

wfp

2013-04-07 03:50:53 pm

yeah, i'd venture sub 1:30 is possible. play around with the audio diary skip. i imagine as much as two minutes could be saved each level from them alone. i didn't do much testing when i first discovered it (in fact i was mostly running around trying to undo it), but i think it skips radio transmissions and cutscenes/animations (such as eleanor interuptions and putting the little sister on your shoulder). you still need to trigger everything, but you don't need to worry so much about avoiding triggers as in bs1 as all triggers complete as soon as conditions for them are met (instead of playing some kind of cutscene or whatnot), i think.

Blood Thunder

2013-04-11 10:18:24 am

I did some testing last night on stream looking for any possible skips or tricks and got up to the beginning of siren's alley. Unfortunately i didn't managae to find anything useful so far, it really seems like the developers went out of their way to make sure you couldn't break this game, there are a ton of invisible walls everywhere, and every time you need to activate a switch/lever you either get forced into a certain position or you simply can't get out of the door closing behind you in time.

A few other annoying things to note:

*You actually can't die while standing close to the elevator in atlantic express. I was hoping I could activate the elevator and have a splicer kill me, as I suspect that this would make you spawn at the top of the elevator(vita-chamber right when you come out).
*As soon as you drop down into the room with the camera in pauper's drop, the brute runs off. I tried to lead him to the hole in the roof then shock him as I feel down so I could take a picture of him then kill him. Unfortunately even after getting the picture (just barely could), he still managed to run off making it so i had to go chase him down.
*I tried to do the TK jump through the rubble in Pauper's Drop as well, and had no luck getting any sort of boost. I tried to jump off of some of the items around there but still to no avail. If we could manage to figure out why the TK works/doesn't work then that could still potentially work.
*Crouching then immediately jumping in the underwater part seems to act strangely, kind of like your floating instead of actually walking (I might just be crazy in thinking that). You can also use this somewhat to clip into certain rocks. I had hopes for being able to fully walk through the rocks and get OoB but it seems like there are even more invisible walls at the back of the rocks stopping you, or the clipping is just due to the camera being slightly behind the rock and no the actual character model.
*Haven't been able to find many useful death warps up to siren's alley, but this could be tested a lot more.

I did some testing last night on stream looking for any possible skips or tricks and got up to the beginning of siren's alley. Unfortunately i didn't managae to find anything useful so far, it really seems like the developers went out of their way to make sure you couldn't break this game, there are a ton of invisible walls everywhere, and every time you need to activate a switch/lever you either get forced into a certain position or you simply can't get out of the door closing behind you in time.

A few other annoying things to note:

*You actually can't die while standing close to the elevator in atlantic express. I was hoping I could activate the elevator and have a splicer kill me, as I suspect that this would make you spawn at the top of the elevator(vita-chamber right when you come out).
*As soon as you drop down into the room with the camera in pauper's drop, the brute runs off. I tried to lead him to the hole in the roof then shock him as I feel down so I could take a picture of him then kill him. Unfortunately even after getting the picture (just barely could), he still managed to run off making it so i had to go chase him down.
*I tried to do the TK jump through the rubble in Pauper's Drop as well, and had no luck getting any sort of boost. I tried to jump off of some of the items around there but still to no avail. If we could manage to figure out why the TK works/doesn't work then that could still potentially work.
*Crouching then immediately jumping in the underwater part seems to act strangely, kind of like your floating instead of actually walking (I might just be crazy in thinking that). You can also use this somewhat to clip into certain rocks. I had hopes for being able to fully walk through the rocks and get OoB but it seems like there are even more invisible walls at the back of the rocks stopping you, or the clipping is just due to the camera being slightly behind the rock and no the actual character model.
*Haven't been able to find many useful death warps up to siren's alley, but this could be tested a lot more.

Blood Thunder

2013-04-30 11:08:14 pm

In my last 2 runs, I've managed to cut over 8 minutes off my old best. Time now stands at 1:45:47 (Video: http://www.twitch.tv/bl00d_thunder/c/2227621).

I don't expect this to be my personal best for very long, as I've been doing quite a bit of routing and testing. Sadly I've pretty much only found a handful of useful deathwarps and no major skips as of yet. Out of the deathwarps that I will include in current runs, the biggest timesaver actually skips the big sister fight in Ryan's Amusement, then use the big sister to get out of the train booth/office a bit early. The rest of the deathwarps only save a handful of seconds at most and will ultimately be included/skipped depending on how well I can manage my health. More time will be saved through overall better movement and faster fights (hopefully).

I've yet to mess with diary messages as much as I wish, but from what I have experienced I haven't had the same results as mentioned in this thread. I can skip the parts where Elanor gives you an item quite easily (seems like a very large window of time) but getting it so that every radio from that point on is also skipped (for that level) is not easy. Perhaps certain messages are better suited to getting this effect than others, or maybe my timing needs work :p.

In my last 2 runs, I've managed to cut over 8 minutes off my old best. Time now stands at 1:45:47 (Video: http://www.twitch.tv/bl00d_thunder/c/2227621).

I don't expect this to be my personal best for very long, as I've been doing quite a bit of routing and testing. Sadly I've pretty much only found a handful of useful deathwarps and no major skips as of yet. Out of the deathwarps that I will include in current runs, the biggest timesaver actually skips the big sister fight in Ryan's Amusement, then use the big sister to get out of the train booth/office a bit early. The rest of the deathwarps only save a handful of seconds at most and will ultimately be included/skipped depending on how well I can manage my health. More time will be saved through overall better movement and faster fights (hopefully).

I've yet to mess with diary messages as much as I wish, but from what I have experienced I haven't had the same results as mentioned in this thread. I can skip the parts where Elanor gives you an item quite easily (seems like a very large window of time) but getting it so that every radio from that point on is also skipped (for that level) is not easy. Perhaps certain messages are better suited to getting this effect than others, or maybe my timing needs work :p.

wfp

2013-05-01 12:48:27 am

hmm, yeah, i'd play around with diary skipping. once you pick up an audio diary every transmission should be skippable from what i can tell, but certain triggers are way easier to time/react to. i may look into this myself at some point, but it'll probably be some time before i can work my way through the game in this manner.

Blood Thunder

2013-08-02 06:41:08 pm

Did a little bit more work on BioShock 2 and with a little practice and some small tweaks to the route I managed to get a 1:40:41 (http://www.twitch.tv/bl00d_thunder/c/2681844).

Unfortunately it's not sub 1:40 but I'm very pleased with how everything went overall in this run. Although I would still love to find a few skips just to make it a bit more interesting to run(and watch). Still haven't played around enough with the diary skipping yet :p

wfp

2013-08-04 12:27:56 pm

that looks like a pretty good run. it'll be very difficult to get sub 1:40 with the current route but may be possible. i really liked the proxy placing in an anticipation of fights and getting the fire to spread from one big daddy to another to aid in fighting them. i think the only optimization thing i see (minus audio diary skips) is figuring out when to dash and when to buy drill fuel. buying the fuel costs time but generally makes up for itself assuming you're almost empty when you buy it but that assumes the vending machines are fairly conveniently located which they often aren't.

hopefully i'll find time this month to experiment with audio diary skipping, the window's probably too small to be reliable in ss but if you'd be willing to do rta instead it's probably doable reloading. allowing someone to maybe save as much as 5 minutes just through audio skipping, maybe more.

Blood Thunder

2013-08-04 01:07:34 pm

I had the same thoughts about the drill fuel. I've definitely gotten better at conserving it for when it's needed (certain fights) and being able to fill up from the few vending machines that I use but there are still plenty of times where I'm on empty and have to resort to walking.

I would have no problems doing an rta instead, but I think with enough practice and attempts that you could probably figure out a good timing for diary skipping. There are a lot times where I'm waiting for the radio messages to play out before I can move on so possibly eliminating those times from the run would be remarkable. Although this game is rather well built to stop major skips from occuring, I think it still has the potential for some interesting tricks.

The Sid

2013-08-05 03:55:03 pm

raising the stakes on being bad!

Oh man one of the first run I helped verify for SDA was a Bioshock I'm down for watching some streams, I'll watch the run you linked when I get a few ours to burn, or several minute bursts that I decide to string together. either way I'm glad to hear there's a 1:40 sound like a damn good time from what I recall.

Any way keep up the good work, hope I'll catch up with ya in chat Cheesy

Blood Thunder

2013-08-05 07:55:36 pm

I'm not sure when I'll exactly go for a sub 1:40, Ideally I'd like to find at least another trick to throw in there and I've taken to trying to improve my BioShock Infinite time. Just with general optimizations I could probably just get a 1:40 but as I stated above I think there is still a huge potential for this game to be broken so I'd put the time I could be doing runs into routing/trick hunting. :3

That aside, glad to see another person taking interest in bioshock 2 (Don't get that too often :p)

The Sid

2013-08-07 09:44:36 pm

raising the stakes on being bad!

yeah I checked out one of you Bioshock infinite runs the other day all green splits, till you went to fast on your matrix split then had to reset and missed cutting you time by a good amount. I joined in on the graveyard where I noticed you didn't use the graveyard skip, I was planing on learning Bioshock Infinite, so I was gonna ask why, but I had to afk and missed the chance.

any way of most next gen games Bioshock is one of my fav series so I'll try, and drop by next time I get a chance, and look forward to bioshock 2 when you decide to get to it Cheesy

I did recently get a PC that can play Games well and a copy of Bioshock 1 and 2 maybe I'll play around with em' no promises thought I told some other runners I would work on the games they are the sole runners for as well.....
still need infinite for pc though to really run it right.

wfp

2013-08-09 02:28:00 am

okay, just played around a bit with audio skips on the first three levels. keep in mind i'm playing on xbox360 and not pc. i don't think this should make for any differences but it's worth mentioning because it might.

basically activating an audio diary at the same time as a radio message skips the radio message and it seems any associated timer attached to said radio message as well. i think this also works with eleanor transmissions as i was definitely able to skip her saying "father" before you pick up electrobolt using the same method, but i couldn't seem to get it for the message before picking up telekinesis (it may have been because i'd already glitched radio messages so potentially you have to choose between glitching eleanor transmissions and glitching radio messages as you can't glitch both).

this glitch isn't particularly useful on the first level as none of tennebaum's messages delay you from activating a goal, but for testing/timing purposes, activating a diary after electrobolting the generator can glitch her messages. once you hit the generator before the door opens music should start playing, you want to listen for the lyric "night after night" and activate the diary right on the second night (as tennebaum should start speaking). diaries and radio messages will be glitched for the rest of the level (which again isn't particularly useful but it doesn't cost you time either so if you wanna show off you can do it though if i'm right about having to choose between eleanor or the radio, glitching eleanor's probably more useful on this level as it'd potentially save a few frames as opposed to doing nothing). the glitch doesn't to my knowledge skip cutscenes (though maybe this should be tested too) and will reset once the next level loads or you load a save before the glitch was activated (though thankfully if you save after the glitch occurs it will stay in effect on that save until the completion of whatever level you're on).

level 2, activate your diary maybe half a second into the level and you'll glitch all radio messages for the remainder of the level (probably the easiest one to practice on). i don't think radio messages cause major delays on this level either so perhaps trying to glitch eleanor is better, but if you fail that it locks you out of reloading until eleanor stops talking so you only get one shot at it. again the tennebaum cutscene and all cutscenes for that matter play normally.

level 3 i didn't play through this level just activated the glitch and quit, but from here on it looks pretty obvious you can almost always get the glitch almost immediately upon starting the level. i had much better luck getting the glitch on sinclair's second message rather than his first but i think that's due to xbox360's wonky radio message controls. the timing for the second message is once the train door opens and you pull out your weapons.

let me know if you experiment a bit more with this, blood thunder. as i think i mentioned i don't have the most time in the world to be testing tricks and i think i'm comfortable enough with the trick to believe it's viable enough that i'd like to see it implemented that actually can pull of the way harder stuff like aiming, cuz oh my god, i am the worst shot at fpses.

perhaps i should also note the only diary i picked up in all this testing was "attention:workers!"

okay, just played around a bit with audio skips on the first three levels.  keep in mind i'm playing on xbox360 and not pc.  i don't think this should make for any differences but it's worth mentioning because it might.

basically activating an audio diary at the same time as a radio message skips the radio message and it seems any associated timer attached to said radio message as well.  i think this also works with eleanor transmissions as i was definitely able to skip her saying "father" before you pick up electrobolt using the same method, but i couldn't seem to get it for the message before picking up telekinesis (it may have been because i'd already glitched radio messages so potentially you have to choose between glitching eleanor transmissions and glitching radio messages as you can't glitch both).

this glitch isn't particularly useful on the first level as none of tennebaum's messages delay you from activating a goal, but for testing/timing purposes, activating a diary after electrobolting the generator can glitch her messages.  once you hit the generator before the door opens music should start playing, you want to listen for the lyric "night after night" and activate the diary right on the second night (as tennebaum should start speaking).  diaries and radio messages will be glitched for the rest of the level (which again isn't particularly useful but it doesn't cost you time either so if you wanna show off you can do it though if i'm right about having to choose between eleanor or the radio, glitching eleanor's probably more useful on this level as it'd potentially save a few frames as opposed to doing nothing).  the glitch doesn't to my knowledge skip cutscenes (though maybe this should be tested too) and will reset once the next level loads or you load a save before the glitch was activated (though thankfully if you save after the glitch occurs it will stay in effect on that save until the completion of whatever level you're on).

level 2, activate your diary maybe half a second into the level and you'll glitch all radio messages for the remainder of the level (probably the easiest one to practice on).  i don't think radio messages cause major delays on this level either so perhaps trying to glitch eleanor is better, but if you fail that it locks you out of reloading until eleanor stops talking so you only get one shot at it.  again the tennebaum cutscene and all cutscenes for that matter play normally.

level 3 i didn't play through this level just activated the glitch and quit, but from here on it looks pretty obvious you can almost always get the glitch almost immediately upon starting the level.  i had much better luck getting the glitch on sinclair's second message rather than his first but i think that's due to xbox360's wonky radio message controls.  the timing for the second message is once the train door opens and you pull out your weapons.

let me know if you experiment a bit more with this, blood thunder.  as i think i mentioned i don't have the most time in the world to be testing tricks and i think i'm comfortable enough with the trick to believe it's viable enough that i'd like to see it implemented that actually can pull of the way harder stuff like aiming, cuz oh my god, i am the worst shot at fpses.

perhaps i should also note the only diary i picked up in all this testing was "attention:workers!"

Blood Thunder

2013-08-09 03:09:24 pm

Thanks for the update wfp! and I'll offer a little bit of feedback from personal experience :3

-About the eleanor tranmissions, this is usually when I would try to do a diary skip and most of the time it works (except i've never been able to get the telekinesis one to work) so it looks like there might be more to that one transmission than the others. There are also the ones in dionysus park after saving/harvesting the little sisters that seem unskippable as well.

-level 2, If the diary skipping works on the radio messages after the fight (at the end of the level) then that would actually save a nice chunk of time

-level 3, I'm not sure how many areas would be affected by skipped messages. I know the ending would once again benefit. Waiting for the door to open and a few messages on the train stop you from going to pauper's drop

I'll actually do some testing on this today and see if I can't figure out more about this trick.

Blood Thunder

2013-08-09 07:14:10 pm

Ok, so i've done a bit of testing and found out a few things.

between the 2nd and 3rd levels, a little over 2 minutes can be saved if the diary skip is done 1st try.

Pauper's drop is not worth it to diary skip, as there is no point in time where you are waiting for a radio message to stop playing

Siren's alley - If we can find a good spot/method to diary skip, you can skip quiet a bit. It should save time while going through the wave of splicers, and after activating the lever(where you pick up the shotgun).

Dionysus park - There is a radio message playing right at the beginning but it seems to play only after you move (not based on a timer) and I wasn't able to get the diary skip to work. I'm pretty sure that it should still be possible, and I think at least 2 minutes can be saved from a good diary skip. Tons of time waiting for the train to open, and you have to wait for 2 radio messages to play before you can pick up the 3rd little sister.

Fontain Futurisitcs - There is a radio message playing right at the beginning of this level as well that seems to be based off a floor or movement based trigger and I was unable to get this one to work either. However, I think if we can do a diary skip in this area, there will be a huge chunk of time cut out of the run. This area is littered with places where you are simply waiting for a radio message or multiple ones to end before moving on. I could personally see at least 5+ minutes coming off, as long as there aren't any timers holding you in the areas as well.

Outer Persephone - Not sure where you could diary skip here (at least close the beginning) but once again I could see about 2 minutes being saved in this area. I'm not sure if there are any radio messages playing in the little sister/eleanor part that would be useful but there are some playing that stop big sisters from spawning and also a few at the end of the level before the door to leave opens up.

Inner Persephone - Didn't actually get this far but from memory I think this would be another big time saver. I'm not certain if some of the messages in the area are radio messages or the announcement type of messages (which can't be skipped). From what I can recall, I think they are radio messages and although the final fight is on a timer, a lot of the time in between fights/areas have a messages preventing doors from opening.

Besides diary skipping(which could potentially bring this run down to a 1:25-ish), I've gotten some new ideas on how to further improve the route and possibly make it more optimized. I'll have to do some research and look more into it but ultimately the changes that I could make if it turns out to be beneficial could save more minutes off this run. I plan on making a google doc for those interested with a more detailed route for each area so I can map out exactly when/where things could be changed to further cut down on time.

Ok, so i've done a bit of testing and found out a few things.

between the 2nd and 3rd levels, a little over 2 minutes can be saved if the diary skip is done 1st try.

Pauper's drop is not worth it to diary skip, as there is no point in time where you are waiting for a radio message to stop playing

Siren's alley - If we can find a good spot/method to diary skip, you can skip quiet a bit. It should save time while going through the wave of splicers, and after activating the lever(where you pick up the shotgun).

Dionysus park - There is a radio message playing right at the beginning but it seems to play only after you move (not based on a timer) and I wasn't able to get the diary skip to work. I'm pretty sure that it should still be possible, and I think at least 2 minutes can be saved from a good diary skip. Tons of time waiting for the train to open, and you have to wait for 2 radio messages to play before you can pick up the 3rd little sister.

Fontain Futurisitcs - There is a radio message playing right at the beginning of this level as well that seems to be based off a floor or movement based trigger and I was unable to get this one to work either. However, I think if we can do a diary skip in this area, there will be a huge chunk of time cut out of the run. This area is littered with places where you are simply waiting for a radio message or multiple ones to end before moving on. I could personally see at least 5+ minutes coming off, as long as there aren't any timers holding you in the areas as well.

Outer Persephone - Not sure where you could diary skip here (at least close the beginning) but once again I could see about 2 minutes being saved in this area. I'm not sure if there are any radio messages playing in the little sister/eleanor part that would be useful but there are some playing that stop big sisters from spawning and also a few at the end of the level before the door to leave opens up.

Inner Persephone - Didn't actually get this far but from memory I think this would be another big time saver. I'm not certain if some of the messages in the area are radio messages or the announcement type of messages (which can't be skipped). From what I can recall, I think they are radio messages and although the final fight is on a timer, a lot of the time in between fights/areas have a messages preventing doors from opening.

Besides diary skipping(which could potentially bring this run down to a 1:25-ish), I've gotten some new ideas on how to further improve the route and possibly make it more optimized. I'll have to do some research and look more into it but ultimately the changes that I could make if it turns out to be beneficial could save more minutes off this run. I plan on making a google doc for those interested with a more detailed route for each area so I can map out exactly when/where things could be changed to further cut down on time.

wfp

2013-08-10 12:26:37 am

sweet i'll try to look into diary skipping a bit more. if you really think this can get sub 1:30 i think that's pretty incredible.

wfp

2013-08-10 11:18:33 am

played a bit more with diary skips. it seems if you trigger an alarm you deactivate the glitch (i failed a hack, not sure about cameras). should also test what happens if you die, but if the glitch resets on death it just means extra skips need to be found whereas setting off an alarm is now almost definitely a run killer which it was basically already. to clarify enemies can activate alarms and it has no effect on the glitch it's just if you set one off yourself so really this shouldn't be a huge issue.

pauper's drop - couldn't manage to get the timing down to activate the glitch on any of the radio messages. like you said the glitch doesn't save any time here, so i didn't try too hard. theoretically it should still be possible.

siren's alley - i managed to get the glitch off of sinclair's radio message after you see the first spider splicer, but the exact timing is not something i was really able to figure out (i watched the splicer jump away and it's roughly around his last jump, but you obviously won't be watching him when speed running plus you'll get an eleanor message around this time which could screw things up (though may become useful for timing if you can trigger both events consistently)). i can confirm it can be done though and i think this is the earliest message that can realistically be attempted as the first two messages begin before you can play audio diaries and the sophia lamb one after that plays based on a walk trigger you'll activate while sinclair's still talking (though maybe it's possible to do the skip here if you hit the diary as you cross the walk trigger you just wouldn't find out if you were successful until sinclair's radio message completes).

i got the diary skip on dionysus park right at the start so i can confirm it can be done. the radio message at the start of the level is triggered by moving forward. possibly the game doesn't allow you to play audio diaries immediately upon loading the level so you have to wait a moment before triggering sinclair's radio message (this would also explain why i can't get the diary skip on atlantic express until the second radio message). generally i waited until the level faded in before moving, and eventually got it, but it was not an easy skip.

i'll see if i can find time this week to try out the remaining levels.

played a bit more with diary skips.  it seems if you trigger an alarm you deactivate the glitch (i failed a hack, not sure about cameras).  should also test what happens if you die, but if the glitch resets on death it just means extra skips need to be found whereas setting off an alarm is now almost definitely a run killer which it was basically already.  to clarify enemies can activate alarms and it has no effect on the glitch it's just if you set one off yourself so really this shouldn't be a huge issue.

pauper's drop - couldn't manage to get the timing down to activate the glitch on any of the radio messages.  like you said the glitch doesn't save any time here, so i didn't try too hard.  theoretically it should still be possible.

siren's alley - i managed to get the glitch off of sinclair's radio message after you see the first spider splicer, but the exact timing is not something i was really able to figure out (i watched the splicer jump away and it's roughly around his last jump, but you obviously won't be watching him when speed running plus you'll get an eleanor message around this time which could screw things up (though may become useful for timing if you can trigger both events consistently)).  i can confirm it can be done though and i think this is the earliest message that can realistically be attempted as the first two messages begin before you can play audio diaries and the sophia lamb one after that plays based on a walk trigger you'll activate while sinclair's still talking (though maybe it's possible to do the skip here if you hit the diary as you cross the walk trigger you just wouldn't find out if you were successful until sinclair's radio message completes).

i got the diary skip on dionysus park right at the start so i can confirm it can be done.  the radio message at the start of the level is triggered by moving forward.  possibly the game doesn't allow you to play audio diaries immediately upon loading the level so you have to wait a moment before triggering sinclair's radio message (this would also explain why i can't get the diary skip on atlantic express until the second radio message).  generally i waited until the level faded in before moving, and eventually got it, but it was not an easy skip.

i'll see if i can find time this week to try out the remaining levels.

Blood Thunder

2013-08-12 01:57:09 am

Thanks for the update! This is all really useful information :D.

I did some bioshock 2 runs during a stream yesterday and tried to get a diary skip on the 2nd and 3rd level every time. I wasn't able to get either at all despite knowing the general time to get them. Maybe spending some time and just trying to get a consistent timing down for them would pay off, but they might be pretty luck based for a SS run.

Besides diary skips I've started working out a few new route changes (still need to finish working these out) but I think overall it should really help with drill dashing/fuel as well most the fights overall. I had completely ruled out doing a ton of research with the camera in bioshock 1 as it didn't really seem to save time and had just mistakenly applied the same logic to bioshock 2, but looking at it again, I really really think research will make the later levels/fights much easier to get through.

wfp

2013-08-13 02:48:30 am

dionysus park - got the skip on my third try instead of like my tenth. i honestly feel a lot of this will just come down to practicing the timing. couple things to note on this level. firstly the audio diary is triggered by moving period, not just moving forward, and i should also note that a hard reset deactivates the glitch (which i think has been noted elsewhere but still probably worth reiterating). i'm also not convinced you can actually skip what eleanor says or rather shows you. every time i tried to skip her cutscene the video played as normal though her dialogue was completely absent. this would indicate that skipping eleanor on the first level doesn't actually accomplish anything (i had thought it saved maybe a couple frames). also is there specific logic to saving the little sisters rather than harvesting them? i can't remember the ending requirements to prevent getting a "choice" ending which considering timing rules should be avoided (though i think iwtbtg timing ends after landing the final hit on the final boss rather than dodging the apple at the end of the credits), but harvesting sisters should be faster because you don't need to take them to the vent unless i'm forgetting something.

i attempted getting the skip on fontaine futuristics but couldn't pull it off. the trigger for the first transmission is definitely the threshhold of the doorway exiting the train, playing the radio message immediately once you cross it, but despite my efforts to glitch this radio message i couldn't get it to work after maybe 15 minutes. will probably try again some other time. i did however encounter another glitch that definitely has potential to cause problems for ss runs and possibly even rta runs. basically after failing a bunch of times i decided to try to just play the audio diary without any intention of activating the trigger and well, it didn't play. the picture came up but no audio. i've seen this happen before when trying to play the audio diary after the glitch has been activated but never before and as the trigger still activated as it's supposed to (though the audio diary was still glitched) i'm worried that such circumstances may prevent the skip from working. this new glitch still persisted upon reloading the level and i ultimately resorted to exiting to the menu to deactivate it. no idea if this actually poses a problem or how commonly it occurs but it may be an issue when trying to do single segment runs or may be a problem specific to fontaine futuristics that makes diary skips impossible on the level. either way i have concerns about the glitch moving forward. Sad

i'll try to look at this level again maybe tomorrow? and inner and outer persephone later in the week.

i did manage to see about two thirds of one of your runs over the weekend blood thunder (why'd you have to start streaming so late, couldn't stay awake) and it really looks you have the rhythm of everything except the diary skips down for the most part (go for the diary skip on the second radio message on level 3 rather than the first one, it's way easier). i'll be curious to see what happens when you implement more research because it's true that unlike bioshock 1 where the only fight you want to do particularly quickly is fontaine (and maybe the proving grounds stuff, i'm not sure if the little sister is on a timer or her ability to move on is based on clearing the enemies) where bioshock 2 has way more mandatory fights.

dionysus park - got the skip on my third try instead of like my tenth.  i honestly feel a lot of this will just come down to practicing the timing.  couple things to note on this level.  firstly the audio diary is triggered by moving period, not just moving forward, and i should also note that a hard reset deactivates the glitch (which i think has been noted elsewhere but still probably worth reiterating).  i'm also not convinced you can actually skip what eleanor says or rather shows you.  every time i tried to skip her cutscene the video played as normal though her dialogue was completely absent.  this would indicate that skipping eleanor on the first level doesn't actually accomplish anything (i had thought it saved maybe a couple frames).  also is there specific logic to saving the little sisters rather than harvesting them?  i can't remember the ending requirements to prevent getting a "choice" ending which considering timing rules should be avoided (though i think iwtbtg timing ends after landing the final hit on the final boss rather than dodging the apple at the end of the credits), but harvesting sisters should be faster because you don't need to take them to the vent unless i'm forgetting something.

i attempted getting the skip on fontaine futuristics but couldn't pull it off.  the trigger for the first transmission is definitely the threshhold of the doorway exiting the train, playing the radio message immediately once you cross it, but despite my efforts to glitch this radio message i couldn't get it to work after maybe 15 minutes.  will probably try again some other time.  i did however encounter another glitch that definitely has potential to cause problems for ss runs and possibly even rta runs.  basically after failing a bunch of times i decided to try to just play the audio diary without any intention of activating the trigger and well, it didn't play.  the picture came up but no audio.  i've seen this happen before when trying to play the audio diary after the glitch has been activated but never before and as the trigger still activated as it's supposed to (though the audio diary was still glitched) i'm worried that such circumstances may prevent the skip from working.  this new glitch still persisted upon reloading the level and i ultimately resorted to exiting to the menu to deactivate it.  no idea if this actually poses a problem or how commonly it occurs but it may be an issue when trying to do single segment runs or may be a problem specific to fontaine futuristics that makes diary skips impossible on the level.  either way i have concerns about the glitch moving forward. :(  i'll try to look at this level again maybe tomorrow?  and inner and outer persephone later in the week.

i did manage to see about two thirds of one of your runs over the weekend blood thunder (why'd you have to start streaming so late, couldn't stay awake) and it really looks you have the rhythm of everything except the diary skips down for the most part (go for the diary skip on the second radio message on level 3 rather than the first one, it's way easier).  i'll be curious to see what happens when you implement more research because it's true that unlike bioshock 1 where the only fight you want to do particularly quickly is fontaine (and maybe the proving grounds stuff, i'm not sure if the little sister is on a timer or her ability to move on is based on clearing the enemies) where bioshock 2 has way more mandatory fights.

Blood Thunder

2013-08-13 12:48:52 pm

-Skipping eleanor in certain areas does save time, as in the 1st level. It seems to be about 50/50 throughout the game between being able to skip or not.

-I save the little sisters so I can get the good ending, although in the other endings there is a choice you have to make, it wouldn't count towards the timer. I also can't bring myself to harvest them :'c. Overall, it would only save a few seconds to harvest instead of saving them, although the difference in eve is the bigger deal. Currently I think I already get plenty of eve in the run to get what I need/want at the end of the game so that's not a huge issue atm.

-I've actually gotten that weird glitch in fontaine futuristics before in a run without knowing it. I've not seen it anywhere else before, so it might just be a problem with how the level is coded?

-That stream was a 24 hour stream so I streamed a bit late, and really early as well :D. The research should really help in making the fights much easier, almost all research up to lvl 3 on enemies is worth while. Especially on alpha daddies and brute splicers. I've already implemented some research into my runs just to get an idea of how helpful it would be and after getting alpha daddies research to lvl 3, incinerate 2 + machine gun can easily take them down without much worry.

-Skipping eleanor in certain areas does save time, as in the 1st level. It seems to be about 50/50 throughout the game between being able to skip or not.

-I save the little sisters so I can get the good ending, although in the other endings there is a choice you have to make, it wouldn't count towards the timer. I also can't bring myself to harvest them :'c. Overall, it would only save a few seconds to harvest instead of saving them, although the difference in eve is the bigger deal. Currently I think I already get plenty of eve in the run to get what I need/want at the end of the game so that's not a huge issue atm.

-I've actually gotten that weird glitch in fontaine futuristics before in a run without knowing it. I've not seen it anywhere else before, so it might just be a problem with how the level is coded?

-That stream was a 24 hour stream so I streamed a bit late, and really early as well :D. The research should really help in making the fights much easier, almost all research up to lvl 3 on enemies is worth while. Especially on alpha daddies and brute splicers. I've already implemented some research into my runs just to get an idea of how helpful it would be and after getting alpha daddies research to lvl 3, incinerate 2 + machine gun can easily take them down without much worry.

wfp

2013-08-14 05:21:03 pm

had a save right before triggering eleanor on dionysus park so i figured i'd try to skip radio messages there again. managed to get the skip. the timing is not difficult, basically just wait until your adam counter stops increasing and play the audio diary and you'll get the skip (pretty much leaving no excuse not to get the skip once you practice the timing as this is a very easy to spot visual cue). the video will play, but the audio will not and all radio messages will be glitched until the end of the level or a hard reset.

at this point i'm like 95% convinced the audio diary skip does not work on fontaine futuristics. you can glitch out the diary as i've noted which seemingly is obtained the same way you normally get the glitch but radio messages keep playing. this probably has to do with needing to use an audio diary to get past a couple locked doors (which i think the game treats more like a radio message than an audio diary, it almost definitely has some special properties to it at the very least), possibly you can glitch the eleanor transmission later in the level but i didn't really save at a great time to test it and i'm overall doubtful it will work (it's also not the easiest trigger to spot).

i can't seem to get an audio diary to play at the very beginning of persephone, need to find more time later to actually test this level, i'm guessing the glitch will have to be tested on a later radio transmission.

Quote from Blood Thunder:

-I save the little sisters so I can get the good ending, although in the other endings there is a choice you have to make, it wouldn't count towards the timer. I also can't bring myself to harvest them :'c. Overall, it would only save a few seconds to harvest instead of saving them, although the difference in eve is the bigger deal. Currently I think I already get plenty of eve in the run to get what I need/want at the end of the game so that's not a huge issue atm.

there are basically 4 endings (plus differences regarding what happens to sophia iirc). a good ending, a bad ending, and a neutral ending that branches into two possible choices. the bad ending i believe is caused by harvesting little sisters which i think is a little faster than rescuing them (though i haven't actually verified this, but one harvesting scene should be faster than two rescue scenes plus finding a vent). concerns about eve won't really matter, and you get more adam for harvesting anyway. the only real difference is that you won't get that one teddy bear. so long as you don't also need to kill grace, stanley, and/or gil for the bad ending (which i don't think you do) i think you should probably go for the bad ending if this is to be the fastest possible route. but i agree with you that the harvesting scene is pretty uncomfortable to watch so maybe you may want to just call this a "good/best ending" run which is certainly a consideration.

i'm excited to see your modified route.

had a save right before triggering eleanor on dionysus park so i figured i'd try to skip radio messages there again.  managed to get the skip.  the timing is not difficult, basically just wait until your adam counter stops increasing and play the audio diary and you'll get the skip (pretty much leaving no excuse not to get the skip once you practice the timing as this is a very easy to spot visual cue).  the video will play, but the audio will not and all radio messages will be glitched until the end of the level or a hard reset.

at this point i'm like 95% convinced the audio diary skip does not work on fontaine futuristics.  you can glitch out the diary as i've noted which seemingly is obtained the same way you normally get the glitch but radio messages keep playing.  this probably has to do with needing to use an audio diary to get past a couple locked doors (which i think the game treats more like a radio message than an audio diary, it almost definitely has some special properties to it at the very least), possibly you can glitch the eleanor transmission later in the level but i didn't really save at a great time to test it and i'm overall doubtful it will work (it's also not the easiest trigger to spot).

i can't seem to get an audio diary to play at the very beginning of persephone, need to find more time later to actually test this level, i'm guessing the glitch will have to be tested on a later radio transmission.

[quote="Blood Thunder"]

-I save the little sisters so I can get the good ending, although in the other endings there is a choice you have to make, it wouldn't count towards the timer. I also can't bring myself to harvest them :'c. Overall, it would only save a few seconds to harvest instead of saving them, although the difference in eve is the bigger deal. Currently I think I already get plenty of eve in the run to get what I need/want at the end of the game so that's not a huge issue atm.[/quote]

there are basically 4 endings (plus differences regarding what happens to sophia iirc). a good ending, a bad ending, and a neutral ending that branches into two possible choices.  the bad ending i believe is caused by harvesting little sisters which i think is a little faster than rescuing them (though i haven't actually verified this, but one harvesting scene should be faster than two rescue scenes plus finding a vent).  concerns about eve won't really matter, and you get more adam for harvesting anyway.  the only real difference is that you won't get that one teddy bear.  so long as you don't also need to kill grace, stanley, and/or gil for the bad ending (which i don't think you do) i think you should probably go for the bad ending if this is to be the fastest possible route.  but i agree with you that the harvesting scene is pretty uncomfortable to watch so maybe you may want to just call this a "good/best ending" run which is certainly a consideration.

i'm excited to see your modified route.

Blood Thunder

2013-08-14 11:35:06 pm

Quote from wfp:

had a save right before triggering eleanor on dionysus park so i figured i'd try to skip radio messages there again. managed to get the skip. the timing is not difficult, basically just wait until your adam counter stops increasing and play the audio diary and you'll get the skip (pretty much leaving no excuse not to get the skip once you practice the timing as this is a very easy to spot visual cue). the video will play, but the audio will not and all radio messages will be glitched until the end of the level or a hard reset.

Which Eleanor part are you refering to, when you go to pick up the grenade or after saving/harvesting a little sister?

Also an interesting thought about fontaine futuristics being different because of the door triggers, I hadn't considered this to be an issue before but I can see why this might change things. If this is true then that's really disappointing as this is the area where it would save the most time.

Killing grace/stanley/gil only determines how eleanor treats sofia lamb, and how you interact with little sisters is what determines the true ending. I think I will go with a "best ending" run, it really should only be marginally slower than harvesting anyways.

[quote="wfp"]had a save right before triggering eleanor on dionysus park so i figured i'd try to skip radio messages there again.  managed to get the skip.  the timing is not difficult, basically just wait until your adam counter stops increasing and play the audio diary and you'll get the skip (pretty much leaving no excuse not to get the skip once you practice the timing as this is a very easy to spot visual cue).  the video will play, but the audio will not and all radio messages will be glitched until the end of the level or a hard reset. [/quote]

Which Eleanor part are you refering to, when you go to pick up the grenade or after saving/harvesting a little sister?

Also an interesting thought about fontaine futuristics being different because of the door triggers, I hadn't considered this to be an issue before but I can see why this might change things. If this is true then that's really disappointing as this is the area where it would save the most time.

Killing grace/stanley/gil only determines how eleanor treats sofia lamb, and how you interact with little sisters is what determines the true ending. I think I will go with a "best ending" run, it really should only be marginally slower than harvesting anyways.

wfp

2013-08-15 12:24:38 pm

i'm referring to after saving/harvesting a little sister and receiving adam, didn't test with the grenade.

and yeah, saving the little sisters is probably like 10-15 seconds slower for the whole game at worst, but there's enough of a difference that it's potentially worth noting in how the run is classified.