Username:
B
I
U
S
"
url
img
#
code
sup
sub
font
size
color
smiley
embarassed
thumbsup
happy
Huh?
Angry
Roll Eyes
Undecided
Lips Sealed
Kiss
Cry
Grin
Wink
Tongue
Shocked
Cheesy
Smiley
Sad
<- 123
--
--
List results:
Search options:
Use \ before commas in usernames
Visit my profile to see my runs!
Granted, I acknowledge that it would be, at the very least, ideal to summon the best players, other than the runner, to verify, but, as you suggested in your response, this is often unlikely. 

First of all, for obscure titles, the most one can ever hope for would be the stereotypical "other half" of the thread dialogue...  Most of my own runs, for instance, had only one possible verifier [at least, only one that in any way exhibited genuine knowledge of the title].  I know you alluded to this, but the situation might be more desperate than you might realize.

Also, I don't believe your paradigm for trimming the number of runs is necessarily prudent.  First of all, by what criteria, other than some arbitrary insistence on a lower acceptance rate, would we reject runs that we are currently accepting?  If there is none, then your proposition is nothing more than a quota, since we would be superfluously restricting the number of incoming runs based purely off of undefined esoteria [I JUST copyrighted that word... yeah, JUST NOW; [i]right there[/i] you just saw me copyright it 8) ].  Sure, we could limit the number of runs, but, again, you still haven't really defined "stricter," in any sort of manner pertaining to technique.  Also, we were to do this, we would surely be losing some valubale runs in the process if, say, ten miraculous runs were to arrive at the same time, and we were forced to crop them. True, we can probably presume which runs were more leniently evaluated than others, in general, but were we to overrule the original verifiers' judgments, we would necessitate some other set of qualities/expectations/criteria/rules to establish the boundaries of the precedent.  We simply don't have those; Radix could conjure some if he so chose, but I just don't feel that your argument is convincing/strategic enough for this.  At least, not yet... 

And yes, many of us would probably rather see a subar run get posted than not... but we shouldn't pretend that there isn't a way to benefit from this.  Firstly, subpar runs are excellent for illustrating routes and tricks that might be indescribable through text.  They set a good example, in other words.  Secondly, ontologically speaking, there will always be subpar runs, because the word subpar exists as a correlate to above par.  And since above par runs will always exist... well, you get the picture.  Thirdly, truly subpar runs are the quickest to be replaced by superior runs, anyway.  If a run is detestable, and it lasts for a very long time, then I can only assume that the runner should be commended for at least having the balls to submit a run at all, as, if it's so mediocre, many others could have already beaten it, but for whatever reason haven't.  In which case, the verifiers are either quite scarce or too lazy to do what might initially seem so easy. 

I'm really sorry if I sound like I'm harping on your opinion.  I think you have some great ideas, and you're a gifted debater.  However, I just disagree with you on this, for the time being.  [Note: Certainly, your ideas would be more accessible in an SDA community much larger than the one we have; maybe some day we will have enough gamers frequenting the site to harvest a healthy number of verifiers for most any run...]
 
Edit history:
VorpalEdge: 2006-02-06 02:16:12 am
welcome to the machine
Nobody said anything about actually using the rejection rate for anything.  It was just someone being curious.  Using it would be lunacy.

A problem with getting better verifiers, as I see it, would be determining the most qualified.  What is radix going to do, email you a questionaire with a 'Please fill these fields/tick these boxes honestly, because if you don't, I'll magically know and will prevent you from seeing runs earlier than normal!'?

No.  I hope everybody is trustworthy, but I'm way too pessimistic about the human race in general to ever even think about something like that.  So long as the guy's not a complete idiot and has played the game before, he'll do.  But even ignoring that issue, it would hinge on a verfier's presumed knowledge of the game, and that's shaky ground.

If you're going to become more strict, I'd say that Radix should either A: grill the verifiers about mistakes they saw and decide himself (easy to implement, probably easy to do), B: draw out general guidelines on what's acceptable (ie. no multiple minute mistakes in a segmented run), or C: require a period of discussion on the forums where the runner is required to at least give a general outline of his path through the game, as well as any major tricks.  This will kill much of the horrible route choices, although it doesn't touch mistakes at all.

I'd personally just do A, but Radix is overworked already. :/

Also, I'd probably require people to browse glitch faqs/google stuff for the game, but it's unenforceable.

I still say that we should be generally accepting runs unless we have reasons not to (foot in the door, etc), but the above is if the decision to become more strict has already been made regardless.
Edit history:
nate: 2006-02-06 02:56:34 am
afaik he already does a. just there are cases where it gets posted anyway due to fitd (foot in the door), and of course cases where it does not.
Visit my profile to see my runs!
Quote:
Nobody said anything about actually using the rejection rate for anything.  It was just someone being curious.  Using it would be lunacy.


I know; I didn't mean to imply that he did.  I guess I was just playing out the idea in order to critique it. 

Yeah, I also thought Radix already did A.  In some news post, actually in a few, I recall him mentioning that he had suggested improvements to the runner.  [Banjo-Tooie?]
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
I will try to sum up.

I changed my original stance which was to judge stricter, because there is no good way to enforce this or do this without creating extra hassle. A is already what Radix does; I've experienced this while verifying. C is what runners ought to be doing anyway, but this is just my opinion and I don't know if it would be right to enforce it. You could weed out the people who don't do much planning anyhow. My beef is not with people who make mistakes as much as people who won't even do the first step of research here, at gamefaqs, or wherever.



I think you should just get the most knowledgable people you can to verify. Since Radix has enough work as is, he could just put the list of games needing verification somewhere more prominent, like the queue page, and advertise this fact. Then by consensus, the community could sort of self-select who should verify. Maybe there could even be a stickied thread for formulating verifiers, and then whoever does it could just PM Radix like before, with no additional work to him. Currently, Radix just picks the most convenient verifiers he can find. The more popular games currently don't even make the "needs verifiers" page.



About your Banjo-Tooie example, Radix and Nate know the games they play well, but this is not the case for all the verifiers. If the game is more obscure, then there will be less people out there who could potentially be turned off by a bad run. Ok, so we can't get perfect verifiers for everything. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do as well as we can, within reason.

I've talked with people who've watched a given run on SDA, been unimpressed, and then said they weren't coming back. While that's their loss, why not try to fight this if the solution is easy? So... anybody have any feedback on my idea?
Visit my profile to see my runs!
I think we're approaching similar grounds, now.  Wink

Yes, you're probably correct that obscure titles will most likely repel fewer people [for that matter, fewer people would probably ever even see them].  And yes, I definitely agree that we should attempt to find the members most suited for a run.  However, this is the juncture in the process that is most difficult to surpass.

While we've mostly already touched on several facets of this potential process, the idea you mention is new; however, it would totally negate Radix's desire to keep verifiers anonymous, as either the results of the vote or the general consensus of the discussion would alert most everyone as to who will most likely become the verifier.  Not to mention the considerable workload this all would create for Radix...

Maur's C sounds great, but those who don't already do this [or don't at least check a variety of faqs], are probably quite knowledgeable of the game, or are a rare breed of amateurs.  Obviously, this isn't always the rule, as this particular conversation would be null.  Still, I'm not entirely sure how much this would really change, in the end.  What might work better is a strictly "Verification List" page where all interested can download the game's run and comment before it has been officially posted, but of course, what would be the point of actually finishing the hosting process provided by SDA were Nate and Radix to do this??  I guess, this is why I actually tolerate/enjoy preliminary runs...

I'm sorry about your friends; I wish they had given the site a bit more adequate a chance, though...
Edit history:
Enhasa: 2006-02-06 07:56:23 pm
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
This wouldn't create any more work for Radix. That's the point. That's why it's a nice, simple change instead of something radical like the voting system at bisqwit's or the preliminary page you suggested.

About the anonymity, I guess the deal is I have just never really understood why we do that. It's not even as useful to hide the verifier from the runner as it would be to hide the runner from the verifier, which is not possible. Really, already often the runner can find out who is verifying anyway. I found out who verified my run, and I didn't even try or care to find out.

The only benefit of anonymity I can think of, is Radix doesn't want a verifier to feel like he'll be put on the spot if he rejects a run. This way there would be no stigma to rejecting a run since there would be community support.



Although, since I started posting in this thread, I have been told that Radix overturned a rejection from a certain someone who has a lot of respect at SDA. So maybe run quality is not a top priority here, who knows. (Before anyone flames me, what I actually think is too complicated to post and speculative, so I won't.)
welcome to the machine
Yeah, we need to keep the verifiers anonymous just so they don't feel pressured.  Even if it is easy to find out who the verifier is eventually, it's probably better if we at least keep up the pretense anyways.

I'll pretty much echo what you're saying about finding better verifiers.  The proces of doing so would probably create much more work/destroy more benefits than it creates.  It'd still be nice though. :/