Batman Returns (SNES)

2013-04-27 10:43:13 pm

Yes

I suppose a lot of you remember this game. So just for fun I figured I'd try my hand at routing the game. I've only been at it a day and things have really taken off fast. I don't know if I want to be the person to run this because I've got a ton of other projects, but I found a lot of interesting stuff. Thanks to some new strats I got a 1cc clear (though with 7 lives) on Mania on day 1 that clocked in at 37:10. This run is terrible and isn't worth watching. I do however have some information that is worth looking at. Before you ask, the values and strategies below are all for the Mania difficulty.

First I've got the damage values for almost everything:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlQn8DYLTR-hdG1tWWtqZEJoS2FHODVjcFZnZ0E4Z0E#gid=0

The stages themselves are actually going to take some skill and practice to complete optimally. There won't be any substitute for memorization and practice. The bosses are a different story. I found some lovely boss strategies. Also a quick note is that you get three test tubes at the start of each stage so there's no reason not to use them.

I've made a little compilation of the boss strategies below with a video and a more detailed description can be found below:

Note: I had an infinite health cheat on that I forgot to turn off for testing, but that doesn't change the strategies. I've verified that the strats work on console. The most broken thing in this game is regrabbing. You grab an enemy, inflict some damage but don't do a knockdown. You will eventually let go and if you keep moving toward the enemy you can regrab the enemy before the enemy has a chance to attack.

Stage 1
Grappling at the beginning of the fight does a whopping 64 damage. This combined with a test tube make this fight a joke.

Stage 2
Regrabbing works really well against this boss. The thin clowns could be trouble in a run so a test tube could be used here if things got rough.

Stage 3
Catwoman is vulnerable to the regrab, but she has a relation move that will get her out of it. The retaliation move where she will charge around the screen. She will do this move after she has been hit four times. The move takes a long time to finish and it can only be interrupted by a test tube. The trick here is to manipulate the limit. So grab punch punch, regrab punch, regrab punch punch throw. This gets you an extra hit before the retaliation. Once she gets up you can pretty much use a test tube. If you pick up the test tube on the high path in stage 3 you never have to wait for this move. I had some execution issues in the video and was slow on the grab, but the point is you never have to wait for the charge attack to finish.

Stage 4
Catwoman has no retaliation move so assuming you don't mess up you can just regrab infinite her to death. I don't have a good strategy for the Penguin fight. I hate that fight

Stage 5
Meh. This stage is boring and I don't really know how to optimize it. The controls are so bad. This is not included in the compilation.

Stage 6
The Organ Grinder is vulnerable to regrab, but the thin clowns and the lack of ability to scroll the screen make things tough. This is not included in the compilation.

Stage 7
No comment on the Duck Vehicle fight so far, it's not in the compilation. Penguin second fight is interesting. Just like everyone else he can get hit by regrab, but like Catwoman 1 he has a retaliation move that interrupts it. This is to activate the umbrella. This happens after 6 hits. The strategy here is grab punch punch, regrab punch punch, regrab punch, regrab punch punch throw. You can test tube almost immediately after the throw, but it's strongly recommended that you wait until he gets back on screen before you do it or you'll have some really tough positioning to deal with. You pick up an extra test tube in stage 7 and it's important you use all four on Penguin in order for this strat to work.

Thread title:

I suppose a lot of you remember this game.  So just for fun I figured I'd try my hand at routing the game.  I've only been at it a day and things have really taken off fast.  I don't know if I want to be the person to run this because I've got a ton of other projects, but I found a lot of interesting stuff.  Thanks to some new strats I got a 1cc clear (though with 7 lives) on Mania on day 1 that clocked in at 37:10.  This run is terrible and isn't worth watching.  I do however have some information that is worth looking at.  Before you ask, the values and strategies below are all for the Mania difficulty.

First I've got the damage values for almost everything:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlQn8DYLTR-hdG1tWWtqZEJoS2FHODVjcFZnZ0E4Z0E#gid=0

The stages themselves are actually going to take some skill and practice to complete optimally.  There won't be any substitute for memorization and practice.  The bosses are a different story.  I found some lovely boss strategies.  Also a quick note is that you get three test tubes at the start of each stage so there's no reason not to use them.

I've made a little compilation of the boss strategies below with a video and a more detailed description can be found below:

Note: I had an infinite health cheat on that I forgot to turn off for testing, but that doesn't change the strategies.  I've verified that the strats work on console.  The most broken thing in this game is regrabbing.  You grab an enemy, inflict some damage but don't do a knockdown.  You will eventually let go and if you keep moving toward the enemy you can regrab the enemy before the enemy has a chance to attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRJFBTQgqVw

Stage 1
Grappling at the beginning of the fight does a whopping 64 damage.  This combined with a test tube make this fight a joke.

Stage 2
Regrabbing works really well against this boss.  The thin clowns could be trouble in a run so a test tube could be used here if things got rough.

Stage 3
Catwoman is vulnerable to the regrab, but she has a relation move that will get her out of it.  The retaliation move where she will charge around the screen.  She will do this move after she has been hit four times.  The move takes a long  time to finish and it can only be interrupted by a test tube.  The trick here is to manipulate the limit.  So grab punch punch, regrab punch, regrab punch punch throw.  This gets you an extra hit before the retaliation.  Once she gets up you can pretty much use a test tube.  If you pick up the test tube on the high path in stage 3 you never have to wait for this move.  I had some execution issues in the video and was slow on the grab, but the point is you never have to wait for the charge attack to finish.

Stage 4
Catwoman has no retaliation move so assuming you don't mess up you can just regrab infinite her to death.  I don't have a good strategy for the Penguin fight.  I hate that fight

Stage 5
Meh.  This stage is boring and I don't really know how to optimize it.  The controls are so bad.  This is not included in the compilation.

Stage 6
The Organ Grinder is vulnerable to regrab, but the thin clowns and the lack of ability to scroll the screen make things tough.  This is not included in the compilation.

Stage 7
No comment on the Duck Vehicle fight so far, it's not in the compilation.  Penguin second fight is interesting.  Just like everyone else he can get hit by regrab, but like Catwoman 1 he has a retaliation move that interrupts it.  This is to activate the umbrella.  This happens after 6 hits.  The strategy here is grab punch punch, regrab punch punch, regrab punch, regrab punch punch throw.  You can test tube almost immediately after the throw, but it's strongly recommended that you wait until he gets back on screen before you do it or you'll have some really tough positioning to deal with.  You pick up an extra test tube in stage 7 and it's important you use all four on Penguin in order for this strat to work.

mikwuyma

2013-04-28 02:12:37 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

That's cool you want to run this game, Mr. K. This is a game I played a lot as a kid and it's definitely deserving of a run (except stage 5, that stage sucks).

Well I was going to tell you about the grab infinite, but it looks like you already know. However, Mondrunner (yes the Actraiser 2 guy) has a first stage video for this game that you should definitely watch.

The big thing is that you can regrab faster if you tap block after gut punching twice. It also looks like blocking lets you do a combo infinite.

Mr. K

2013-04-28 10:06:12 am

Yes

Wow Mike, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I had no idea. It looks like Mondrunner is well ahead of me in tech for this game. I'll go ahead and retool my strats and see what I can come up with. It looks like the retaliation management is still good, but everything else needs a total overhaul.

Mr. K

2013-04-28 11:02:05 am

Yes

Okay that block infinite is going to take a lot of practice and timing to get down. I was able to demolish the strong man even faster with it. In principle it should work on a fast moving boss like Catwoman, but in practice I've still got a bit of a ways to go. I have used the block to retool the Catwoman 2 fight to make it faster though:

Blocking is a faster way to regrab and it will make Catwoman 1 and Penguin 2 fights slightly faster.

PJ

2013-04-28 01:25:58 pm

Is PJ

I was going to link to mond's video, but Mike already beat me to it (thanks, Mike, I actually didn't know how to find that video again)! Mond is a beast. You should definitely get in touch with him. I'm sure you two could get a solid route figured out. I believe his nvideo was tool-assisted, but the strats and whatnot might still be legit for a real-time run.

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2013-04-28 04:18:39 pm

2013-04-28 04:18:07 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Wouldn't you want to throw Catwoman to the left at the end of that fight?

PJ: Yeah that wouldn't surprise me if the video was tool assisted. The punching is crazy fast, and some of the stuff was either crazy lucky or crazy tight. That being said, it's still a good reference point for strategies and tech.

Mr. K

Edit history:

Mr. K: 2013-05-01 11:01:35 pm

2013-05-01 10:57:47 pm

Yes

Mike - thanks for catching that. I totally forgot to do that. Speaking of Catwoman I've got a nice update for the first Catwoman fight. I've been studying a bit more about how retaliation works. Catwoman's charge retaliation isn't instant. This means that if you start a combo you can pretty much finish it even if you reach the 4 hit retaliation limit. I've abused this effect to get 8 hits and a throw each cycle. This also means I only have to use three test tubes for this fight instead of 4. Using a test tube required a slight detour in this stage and it used up considerable time in the fight (though still faster than waiting for the charge). This trick also helps setup some AI manipulation into instant grabs. There is a slight risk that she can backflip out of the combo here, but it doesn't require a tremendous amount of luck. I'll stop talking and let the video speak for itself.

Still working on the best way to finish the fight, but at least I've got the strat.

Edit - You can't use this to make the Penguin fight faster. Penguin's umbrella retaliation is instant. It will interrupt a punch combo. The only thing it won't interrupt is your grab.

Mike - thanks for catching that.  I totally forgot to do that.  Speaking of Catwoman I've got a nice update for the first Catwoman fight.  I've been studying a bit more about how retaliation works.  Catwoman's charge retaliation isn't instant.  This means that if you start a combo you can pretty much finish it even if you reach the 4 hit retaliation limit.  I've abused this effect to get 8 hits and a throw each cycle.  This also means I only have to use three test tubes for this fight instead of 4.  Using a test tube required a slight detour in this stage and it used up considerable time in the fight (though still faster than waiting for the charge).  This trick also helps setup some AI manipulation into instant grabs.  There is a slight risk that she can backflip out of the combo here, but it doesn't require a tremendous amount of luck.  I'll stop talking and let the video speak for itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfIWDeN7LAo
Still working on the best way to finish the fight, but at least I've got the strat.

Edit - You can't use this to make the Penguin fight faster.  Penguin's umbrella retaliation is instant.  It will interrupt a punch combo.  The only thing it won't interrupt is your grab.

Mr. K

Edit history:

Mr. K: 2013-05-03 12:46:55 am

Mr. K: 2013-05-03 12:25:17 am

2013-05-03 12:23:20 am

Yes

Here's my strat for the stage 6 boss. It's wildly creative on the positioning. While you can punch faster, the timing on the stun lock is tighter than it looks and the boss can easily escape if you don't keep the rhythm properly. The thin clowns that walk up to you actually change the timing.

Edit: The timing on this is so weird. I'll see how consistent I can get this to be.

Mr. K

2013-05-05 05:38:32 pm

Yes

I was able to get sub 30 today. Now I still have a long ways to go in this game, but most of the boss strategies are pretty close to being finalized. Several minutes can still come off this time. The most important thing right now is finding the best grouping strategies for enemies. I've got some routing work done for stages 1, 2, and 6. Stage 4's enemies in the first room are random so this will be a bit tough. I'll post updates on my progress as noteworthy things come up.

Mr. K

Edit history:

Mr. K: 2013-06-27 11:05:20 am

2013-06-27 11:04:09 am

Yes

I've gone back to routing this and it's shaping up pretty fast. The basic strategy is grouping enemies together and using the infinite combo with the block. Test tubes are what is making the real difference. They only lag the game a bit and they instantly kill all enemies on the screen (except bosses). They're definitely faster than taking out enemies even if you group them well. Where this really shines is for areas where grouping is either difficult or inconsistent.

Stage 1
This is coming along. Using two test tubes will help for grouping issues near the window section.

Stage 2
I can slam enemies against the wall to group them for cheap infinite combos. In part three of the stage where the first dynamite clown is I use all three test tubes. Enemies are coming from different sides and there just isn't an effective grouping strategy.

Stage 3
Why is this even a stage?

Stage 4
The cape special attack can take out thin clown enemies that drop from the ceiling in one hit. They can two shot the fat clowns. Given that this stage is random it's the best way to go.

Stage 5
Why?

Stage 6
I've worked on my strats a bit. I found a trick for the dynamite section. If you are at the top of the screen the biker clown can't throw dynamite directly at you. Also dynamite clowns can't throw dynamite up. I'm still trying to figure out the best use of test tubes for this stage. The section with the poles takes out enemies pretty fast.

Stage 7
I've got the first third of this stage done, I just need to practice dodging the missiles. The second half is still sloppy and this is definitely the stage that needs the most work.

I've gone back to routing this and it's shaping up pretty fast.  The basic strategy is grouping enemies together and using the infinite combo with the block.  Test tubes are what is making the real difference.  They only lag the game a bit and they instantly kill all enemies on the screen (except bosses).  They're definitely faster than taking out enemies even if you group them well.  Where this really shines is for areas where grouping is either difficult or inconsistent.

Stage 1 
This is coming along.  Using two test tubes will help for grouping issues near the window section.

Stage 2
I can slam enemies against the wall to group them for cheap infinite combos.  In part three of the stage where the first dynamite clown is I use all three test tubes.  Enemies are coming from different sides and there just isn't an effective grouping strategy.

Stage 3
Why is this even a stage?

Stage 4
The cape special attack can take out thin clown enemies that drop from the ceiling in one hit.  They can two shot the fat clowns.  Given that this stage is random it's the best way to go.

Stage 5
Why?

Stage 6
I've worked on my strats a bit.  I found a trick for the dynamite section.  If you are at the top of the screen the biker clown can't throw dynamite directly at you.  Also dynamite clowns can't throw dynamite up.  I'm still trying to figure out the best use of test tubes for this stage.  The section with the poles takes out enemies pretty fast.

Stage 7
I've got the first third of this stage done, I just need to practice dodging the missiles.  The second half is still sloppy and this is definitely the stage that needs the most work.

Mr. K

Edit history:

Mr. K: 2013-06-28 12:55:34 am

2013-06-28 12:55:03 am

Yes

I just found a new strat for the final penguin fight that does not use any test tubes. It is only about 500 frames slower than the test tube strategy. The last section of stage 7 before the Duck Vehicle is the hardest in the game and it's about to get test tubed into the stone age. That last section can easily take a couple minutes and now it's no longer of any concern. This game is going down.

Mr. K

Edit history:

Mr. K: 2013-06-28 10:55:14 am

Mr. K: 2013-06-28 10:55:13 am

2013-06-28 10:51:02 am

Yes

Alright I just got sub 28 with a ton of minor mistakes. I think it's reasonable to expect a minute or so to come off this, but two minutes is definitely pushing it with current strats.

Deuceler

2013-11-26 06:20:11 pm

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Any progress on this so far Mr.K?

LRock

Edit history:

LRock: 2016-08-08 06:38:49 pm

LRock: 2016-08-08 06:38:19 pm

2016-08-07 09:37:37 pm

Not sure if anyone is still running this game or not, but I wanted to make this my first non-introduction post on these forums.

I started running this game a little over a week ago, after discovering the punch-block infinite on YouTube via Toomnyusernae. I've gotten to sub-29 with some obvious mistakes across stages. My fundamentals and some stage knowledge could be better, but the infinite does quite a bit of work, especially against the stage 2 boss, Catwoman 2, and the stage 6 boss. It also works on Catwoman 1 and Penguin 2, but you have to land it very early in the fight, and keep those frame windows reeeeeeeeeeeeally tight.

I see that it's been about 3 years since anyone posted on this thread, but here's a link to my recent run. It's being hosted on a friend's channel, but I'm the guy in the middle that ran the game.

EDIT: Updated with the correct run.