Batman: Arkham Asylum

2010-01-22 12:59:30 am

Was there an reliable in-game timer in this game? If yes then that's used (And in that case maybe the slowmotion time is also counted slowly, as in, no time loss. Should be checked), otherwise manual timing is used and you should try to stay away from slowmotion as much as possible Wink

About the 100%, only the stuff in the game (Trophies, riddles, etc.) are needed, not the Challenges.
I guess an Individual Level table could be created from the Challenges so yeah that would be a separate thing.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2010-01-22 01:46:56 am

2010-01-22 01:40:32 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

I have a few comments.

The zip line DEFINITELY saves time versus Killer Croc. And, somebody said that the zipline does not trigger Croc, but that is false. I've experimented a lot in Croc's lair, and he will pop out if you're covering too much ground with the zipline or if you're cutting a corner sometimes, and often he will even interrupt your line and you'll fall from that spot. However, I still say use it AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE. Croc is practically a non-threat since he gives you plenty of time to attack and a simple batarang will save you; plus you may even want to set off Croc often anyway (when you're making a lot of turns and you're only covering a plank or two at a time before having to turn again). The more you hit him, the more you can run. I've found you can run for a good few seconds after sending him back into the water, until a moment or two after the music stops. Abuse this. But anyway, use the zipline for any movement intended to continue for more than a plank or two. If you're expecting Croc to pop out in the next plank or two, you should probably just crouch. By the way, you can cut corners (zipline from one adjacent set of planks to another) with the zipline to avoid Croc as well and continue on your way. And, if you're expecting Croc to pop out down a long corridor at some point, just go ahead and zipline anyway. Just hit B as soon as he comes out and throw a 'rang.

Also, I say get the Joker teeth. I don't know how much experience you're trying to get, but these are freebies if you naturally encounter them on your route (though, they're not worth dick). You can just quick-throw batarangs at them (and then throw a manual if you didn't hit them all or don't have multiple batarang power). Because of this, they will hardly if at all affect your time. That is, assuming you have multiple batarangs at your disposal. If not, well work towards them early. Those and the combos (particularly the one which drops x8 to x5) are about the only things that seem hugely critical. You don't need the Remote Batarang, the tech upgrades, or even the defense upgrades. If it were me, I would just try to beat every segment with the standard health bar. If this were a single segment, then I'd think about the defense upgrades. You could possibly the basic sonic batarang though. That could help in the stealth sections a little bit, assuming you aren't expected to kill all of the men. But, I would imagine that if you don't have to kill all or any of the men, it would be faster just to kill [excuse me: knock out] a random guy to draw all of their attention away so you can proceed. By the way, ziplining during the stealth sections can actually be quite useful sometimes (library, for instance).

Yeah, snipers are bitches. Anyone knows what happens if you don't kill them the first time you encounter them? Will there be more of them then when you get to the point when more would have come out, or will only the first ones remain until you kill them? Anyway, if you really worked at it, you might be able to find a consistent way or route to evade them, but I wholeheartedly doubt it's realistic (especially if you need to do ANYTHING outside besides get to the next building on your list).

By the way, instant takedowns are definitely faster if for no other reason than because you don't have to get the guy on the ground first. They take about the same amount of time to perform, but assuming you're using one or the other in the middle of a brawl, you'll have to use your judgment deciding between the two. One piece of advice: Practice a lot in the combat mode before you perform the run. This helped me learn how to balance the two effectively to maximize combo points. For instance, if you've just hit every guy in a fight of about five men, then ground pound one of the first you attacked just afterwards because this would be the best time and because you get WAY more points for it than for an instant takedown. In single player, this will result in more experience points. However, if plenty of the guys are still standing (and none of them have to cover much distance to get to you) go for an instant takedown so you don't interrupt the combo by getting hit. Also, instant takedowns are godsends for knife wielders and stun rodders. All of this is for naught, of course, if the battle at hand can be skipped.

Finally, low% and any% are not the same thing, or even close to the same thing. Low% means you purposely avoid collecting items or powers which either contribute to your completion percentage or which are not necessary to beat the game, making your playthrough essentially more raw and therefore difficult. Any % means beating the game as fast as possible, regardless of how much or little you collect.

I have a few comments.

The zip line DEFINITELY saves time versus Killer Croc.  And, somebody said that the zipline does not trigger Croc, but that is false.  I've experimented a lot in Croc's lair, and he will pop out if you're covering too much ground with the zipline or if you're cutting a corner sometimes, and often he will even interrupt your line and you'll fall from that spot.  However, I still say use it AS MUCH AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.  Croc is practically a non-threat since he gives you plenty of time to attack and a simple batarang will save you; plus you may even want to set off Croc often anyway (when you're making a lot of turns and you're only covering a plank or two at a time before having to turn again).  The more you hit him, the more you can run.  I've found you can run for a good few seconds after sending him back into the water, until a moment or two after the music stops.  Abuse this.  But anyway, use the zipline for any movement intended to continue for more than a plank or two.  If you're expecting Croc to pop out in the next plank or two, you should probably just crouch.  By the way, you can cut corners (zipline from one adjacent set of planks to another) with the zipline to avoid Croc as well and continue on your way.  And, if you're expecting Croc to pop out down a long corridor at some point, just go ahead and zipline anyway.  Just hit B as soon as he comes out and throw a 'rang.

Also, I say [i]get the Joker teeth[/i].  I don't know how much experience you're trying to get, but these are freebies if you naturally encounter them on your route (though, they're not worth dick).  You can just quick-throw batarangs at them (and then throw a manual if you didn't hit them all or don't have multiple batarang power).  Because of this, they will hardly if at all affect your time. That is, assuming you have multiple batarangs at your disposal.  If not, well work towards them early.  Those and the combos (particularly the one which drops x8 to x5) are about the only things that seem hugely critical.  You don't need the Remote Batarang, the tech upgrades, or even the defense upgrades.  If it were me, I would just try to beat every segment with the standard health bar.  If this were a single segment, then I'd think about the defense upgrades.  You could possibly the [i]basic[/i] sonic batarang though.  That could help in the stealth sections a little bit, assuming you aren't expected to kill all of the men.  But, I would imagine that if you don't have to kill all or any of the men, it would be faster just to kill [excuse me: knock out] a random guy to draw all of their attention away so you can proceed.  By the way, ziplining during the stealth sections can actually be quite useful sometimes (library, for instance).

Yeah, snipers are bitches.  Anyone knows what happens if you don't kill them the first time you encounter them?  Will there be more of them then when you get to the point when more would have come out, or will only the first ones remain until you kill them?  Anyway, if you really worked at it, you might be able to find a consistent way or route to evade them, but I wholeheartedly doubt it's realistic (especially if you need to do ANYTHING outside besides get to the next building on your list).

By the way, instant takedowns are definitely faster if for no other reason than because you don't have to get the guy on the ground first.  They take about the same amount of time to perform, but assuming you're using one or the other in the middle of a brawl, you'll have to use your judgment deciding between the two.  One piece of advice:  Practice a lot in the combat mode before you perform the run.  This helped me learn how to balance the two effectively to maximize combo points.  For instance, if you've just hit every guy in a fight of about five men, then ground pound one of the first you attacked just afterwards because this would be the best time and because you get WAY more points for it than for an instant takedown.  In single player, this will result in more experience points.  However, if plenty of the guys are still standing (and none of them have to cover much distance to get to you) go for an instant takedown so you don't interrupt the combo by getting hit.  Also, instant takedowns are godsends for knife wielders and stun rodders.  All of this is for naught, of course, if the battle at hand can be skipped.

Finally, low% and any% are not the same thing, or even close to the same thing.  Low% means you purposely avoid collecting items or powers which either contribute to your completion percentage or which are not necessary to beat the game, making your playthrough essentially more raw and therefore difficult.  Any % means beating the game as fast as possible, regardless of how much or little you collect.

Greonhal

2010-01-22 02:51:58 am

Wouldn't a low% run basically just be not buying upgrades? The game lets you do that whenever you feel like it, so you could just never hit the button to open the upgrade menu.

InsipidMuckyWater

2010-01-22 05:49:12 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

^ Correct. In this game, you don't have to collect any of the Waynetech powerups, so a low% run is possible. In fact, it's possible somebody could find a sequence break, skip one of the mandatory powerups, and manage to complete the game that way as well. Based on my experience with the game, I doubt the latter is possible, but you never know. Anyway, my guess is that the first few runs will be any %, though, so we probably don't need to worry about the low % run for now. Low % runs are generally one of the later speedrun categories for a game, since they're usually difficult.

Now that I think about it, for the any % run, the runner may want to spend all of his time at first collecting combo upgrades before moving on to the multiple batarangs. Then next I would get the remote batarang, the sonic batarang, then the remote detonator for it, then the upgrade to the crypto-thing-a-ma-jig so you can disarm locks quicker. I put that last on the list because you won't even have the cryptographic sequencer or whatever until somewhat late in the game. I was trying to think of a way you could abuse the range extension for it, but I'm pretty sure any place you could use it to disarm a normal (within reach) lock would be a place you could just reach on your own anyway, so there's probably no need for it unless someone can find such a place. So, after the sonic batarang stuff, and if there's room before the crypto (and there probably will be... but even if not, then after it) I guess I'd go for the inverted takedown. I dunno, I guess it could be slightly useful in stealth rooms. It seems like kind of a waste of time unless a spontaneous opportunity arises, but besides that all of the other upgrades are going to be kind of frivolous.

The remote batarang I said would not be necessary, but I completely forgot that A) you have to get it to get to the sonic batarang, and B) it can be really useful for knocking down snipers. Hopefully you can unlock it before you reach the snipers, but you may have to deal with them once or twice before unlocking the upgrade.

I forget which upgrades are available from the start. Batarang power isn't necessary but can be useful for extending your time to perform a ground pound or for other such purposes. I would skip it if that's possible and go to twin, triple, and remote batarangs first.

^ Correct.  In this game, you don't have to collect any of the Waynetech powerups, so a low% run is possible.  In fact, it's possible somebody could find a sequence break, skip one of the mandatory powerups, and manage to complete the game that way as well.  Based on my experience with the game, I doubt the latter is possible, but you never know.  Anyway, my guess is that the first few runs will be any %, though, so we probably don't need to worry about the low % run for now.  Low % runs are generally one of the later speedrun categories for a game, since they're usually difficult.

Now that I think about it, for the any % run, the runner may want to spend all of his time at first collecting combo upgrades before moving on to the multiple batarangs.  Then next I would get the remote batarang, the sonic batarang, then the remote detonator for it, then the upgrade to the crypto-thing-a-ma-jig so you can disarm locks quicker.  I put that last on the list because you won't even have the cryptographic sequencer or whatever until somewhat late in the game.  I was trying to think of a way you could abuse the range extension for it, but I'm pretty sure any place you could use it to disarm a normal (within reach) lock would be a place you could just reach on your own anyway, so there's probably no need for it unless someone can find such a place.  So, after the sonic batarang stuff, and if there's room before the crypto (and there probably will be... but even if not, then after it) I guess I'd go for the inverted takedown.  I dunno, I guess it could be slightly useful in stealth rooms.  It seems like kind of a waste of time unless a spontaneous opportunity arises, but besides that all of the other upgrades are going to be kind of frivolous.

The remote batarang I said would not be necessary, but I completely forgot that A) you have to get it to get to the sonic batarang, and B) it can be really useful for knocking down snipers.  Hopefully you can unlock it before you reach the snipers, but you may have to deal with them once or twice before unlocking the upgrade.

I forget which upgrades are available from the start.  Batarang power isn't necessary but can be useful for extending your time to perform a ground pound or for other such purposes.  I would skip it if that's possible and go to twin, triple, and remote batarangs first.

Rudy06

2010-01-22 01:13:44 pm

I just finished a sub 3 hour run! Using some of the ideas in this topic and only buying 8 upgrades, 2 of which I didn't use, a sub 2:30 run should definetly be possible. I died multiple times to Scarecrow and missed a few jumps in the old Cave sections, which meant I had to run all the way back up.

I bought Special Combo Throw, Special Combo Takedown, Special Combo Boost, Critical Combo Strikes, Batarang Power, Sonic Batarang, Cryptographic Range Amplifier, and Cryptographic Power Amplifier.

I got the Batarang Power to see if it hurt Ivy more, and I didn't notice any change, and the Sonic Batarang I never really used.

Other Hints:
-Don't pick up Interview Tapes. Waste of time going to Menu.
-Use Explosive Gel to take out groups. For Predator areas, I would take out a guy, spray explosive gel, go and take out someone who wouldn't rush to the body(once they have the collars), go back to the first body and blow up the gel once everyone is around it and then starting performing ground takedowns. =D Worked like a charm.
-I believe beating up the guys outside of the final building(the one's who "Check the party list") is faster than waiting on them. Obviously, just skip the next room. I didn't get to take many notes, but there are a lot of areas that you can avoid killing.

And when the 2 snipers appear in North Arkham, you can leave'em, but the one's in East Arkham (when you have to enter the Mansion), I killed the left tower one, then ran near the graveyard, got up on the sniper platform of the mansion and pulled down the grate without killilng the two on the ledge.

I just finished a sub 3 hour run! Using some of the ideas in this topic and only buying 8 upgrades, 2 of which I didn't use, a sub 2:30 run should definetly be possible.  I died multiple times to Scarecrow and missed a few jumps in the old Cave sections, which meant I had to run all the way back up.

I bought Special Combo Throw, Special Combo Takedown, Special Combo Boost, Critical Combo Strikes, Batarang Power, Sonic Batarang, Cryptographic Range Amplifier, and Cryptographic Power Amplifier.

I got the Batarang Power to see if it hurt Ivy more, and I didn't notice any change, and the Sonic Batarang I never really used.

Other Hints:
-Don't pick up Interview Tapes. Waste of time going to Menu.
-Use Explosive Gel to take out groups. For Predator areas, I would take out a guy, spray explosive gel, go and take out someone who wouldn't rush to the body(once they have the collars), go back to the first body and blow up the gel once everyone is around it and then starting performing ground takedowns. =D Worked like a charm. 
-I believe beating up the guys outside of the final building(the one's who "Check the party list") is faster than waiting on them. Obviously, just skip the next room. I didn't get to take many notes, but there are a lot of areas that you can avoid killing.

And when the 2 snipers appear in North Arkham, you can leave'em, but the one's in East Arkham (when you have to enter the Mansion), I killed the left tower one, then ran near the graveyard, got up on the sniper platform of the mansion and pulled down the grate without killilng the two on the ledge.

MAS8705

2010-01-22 02:01:13 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

It's great to know that Arkham Asylum is looked into again...

It's also nice to see that people are giving their own ideas of how a run should be approached... An interesting idea that you only need just 7 upgrades for the whole run... You don't need to upgrade any of the equipment except the cryptographic device and the use of the combo upgrades are good to finish off the baddies quickly...

I wonder how long it will be before someone takes this seriously enough to approach and have at the run...

Paraxade

2010-01-22 02:17:06 pm

definitely interested in this run... in the way of tips I don't really have much to offer other than that this game seems structured in a way that would allow for a lot of sequence breaks but most spots you would think to look are pretty sealed up. Sad

The only thing I found while screwing around is the Joker TV in the hall to the final boss just gets stuck laughing over and over if you trigger it and leave a couple times early in the game.

Also, read through this thread a couple weeks back and didn't see why everyone was suggesting buying the upgrade to make the cryptographic amplifier easier... it's honestly not really particularly difficult either way, waste of an upgrade imo. Same thing with the armor upgrades.

We really need a glitch to clip through things... this game would be so broken.

masterchristoph

2010-01-22 09:56:16 pm

just a theory but maybe if you got the sonic rang you might be able to shot it quickly toward a sniper and take him out. if it could be done i would think it would be a very fast alternative to remote rang or going up and taking him down.

tomatobob

2010-01-22 10:43:55 pm

Sonic batarangs don't do anything outside of predator sections as I recall.

Quote from Paraxade:

Also, read through this thread a couple weeks back and didn't see why everyone was suggesting buying the upgrade to make the cryptographic amplifier easier... it's honestly not really particularly difficult either way, waste of an upgrade imo.

Yeah, I haven't noticed any big difference there, myself. I guess if it helps once in a while with those locks you have to crack three times it might be nice, but I'm not really sold.

Quote from InsipidMuckyWater:

The remote batarang I said would not be necessary, but I completely forgot that A) you have to get it to get to the sonic batarang

Uh, no you don't. That's pretty much always the last upgrade I ever get.

honorableJay

2010-01-23 12:03:58 am

The Dork Knight himself.

http://www.glitcher.net/grapple-glitches-glitch3437.htm

Any chance some of these could help in traveling/sequence breaking?

Aftermath

2010-01-23 01:54:37 am

Quits halfway

Quote from honorableJay:

http://www.glitcher.net/grapple-glitches-glitch3437.htm

Any chance some of these could help in traveling/sequence breaking?

Reading the uploader's youtube comments, it seems that those glitches only happen in the PC version, specifically cracked games.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2010-01-23 03:48:18 am

2010-01-23 03:25:16 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Quote from tomatobob:

Uh, no you don't. That's pretty much always the last upgrade I ever get.

My mistake. But still, why not get it? He said he only killed one sniper... with the remote, you probably wouldn't even have to do that (just zip past him while he's unconscious). And to an earlier post, why not get the amplifier? He's going to have more upgrades than he needs, anyway. If the amplifier helps you only spend 2 seconds disarming a lock instead of 3, then it gets my vote over getting-no-upgrade-at-all-and-letting-the-experience-go-to-waste.

Sonic batarangs don't do anything outside predator sections? Really? Hmmm, I guess I never remember using them anywhere else, so that's certainly possible. Yeah, the sonic batarangs aren't going to be big help, but they're easy-as-hell distractions. Plus, they can be used like the explosive gel, but only on like one guy at a time. Again, you probably would never need it, but you might as well grab em at some point if you have extra experience points sitting around.

[quote="tomatobob"]

Uh, no you don't. That's pretty much always the last upgrade I ever get. 
[/quote]

My mistake.  But still, why not get it?  He said he only killed one sniper... with the remote, you probably wouldn't even have to do that (just zip past him while he's unconscious). And to an earlier post, why not get the amplifier? He's going to have more upgrades [i]than he needs, anyway[/i].  If the amplifier helps you only spend 2 seconds disarming a lock instead of 3, then it gets my vote over getting-no-upgrade-at-all-and-letting-the-experience-go-to-waste.

Sonic batarangs don't do anything outside predator sections?  Really?  Hmmm, I guess I never remember using them anywhere else, so that's certainly possible.  Yeah, the sonic batarangs aren't going to be big help, but they're easy-as-hell distractions.  Plus, they can be used like the explosive gel, but only on like one guy at a time. Again, you probably would never need it, but you might as well grab em at some point if you have extra experience points sitting around.

honorableJay

2010-01-23 03:59:22 am

The Dork Knight himself.

Quote from Aftermath:

Reading the uploader's youtube comments, it seems that those glitches only happen in the PC version, specifically cracked games.

Damn, figured it was something like that. Next time I should read all the comments before posting Sad

Master ZED

Edit history:

Master ZED: 2010-01-23 01:07:38 pm

2010-01-23 12:21:22 pm

This thread's alive, huh? May as well finally report on what I've been doing, as I didn't tell anyone online that I've been studying this game for a run.

And indeed, I finally completed a run in which I wasn't killed instantly somewhere this morning. 2:10:50-ish, easy % single segment (timed from the point at which Batman can move under player control and stopping when the Pull Down prompt disappears when the final Titan Joker tug-of-war is finished; I may be about a second or two off given when I hit start and stop on my watch). If I can't get lower by Monday, I'll try submitting it. There's about five minutes worth of mistakes in there (just over half my fault, the rest I blame on the randomosity of the game), evenly spread throughout unfortunately, not counting potentially faster routes I don't yet know of (I'd be surprised if it passed verification). Still, it's pretty good by me, considering I don't yet have the amount of experience with this game that I'd usually prefer before tackling a speed run (today marks the 18th day of speed run study for me, IIRC; prior to that, I'd only played through the game twice, not really paying any attention to things where this site would be concerned). It wasn't wholly unwatchable, which I can't say for my other runs, and they're on the site, so what the hell.

Anywho, if it helps anyone, here are my notes, though they're slightly outdated and there's a sequence break in there I won't be using due to the combination of difficulty, only saving a few seconds, and the fact that it forces a reset if messed up (I have no patience for restarting as it is, especially not when a game needs 10 minutes to get back to the action):

http://masterzed.cavesofnarshe.com/Misc/BatmanAA.txt

The largest omission is probably using the RCB for the second Zsasz encounter to avoid potential bad luck. Without the RCB, Zsasz can either be a couple seconds quicker or waste over half a minute simply by never showing his face. I may have also omitted that you can ignore the three armed thugs that come out of the elevator in Medical just prior to Scarecrow. Both are in this run.

If the notes don't make it clear, my upgrade choices are Critical Strikes, Twin Batarang, Triple Batarang, RCB, and the two Cryptographic Sequencer upgrades. Critical Strikes should be obvious (more EXP, shorter fights, no downsides) as should multi-Batarangs, even though the not-so-obvious use is in their ability to rapid fire Batarangs in general at Titan Ivy (so can RCB and Sonic, but weapon switching for that purpose is clumsy, the RCB is slow to recharge, and the Sonic's recharge time is so godawful that it's practically worthless for this fight no matter how you look at it). The RCB, as mentioned, is only for Zsasz, and the power upgrade seems useful for the occasional double and triple cracking of trap consoles. Frequencies are always random, but with the power upgrade, you only need the four cardinal directions to find them. You need more precision without it, and that can sometimes be costly.

I'm not sure if two hours can be broken yet. 2:05 would be about optimal from what I know now, and that will likely drop. There is one thing that's bothering me though: what's the exact cause of the empty quick Batarang "bug?" I'm not even sure it's a bug really. If you don't know what I'm talking about, try this; throw quick Batarangs as rapidly and fast as possible, while also throwing in multi-Batarangs. At some point, the QB's stop working, and you have to use a manual single Batarang to restore them. This is bad news for Titan Ivy since you never want to stop the Batarang chain if you don't have to, and multi-Batarangs allow for three-shot bursts (Multi+RCB should allow a seven-shot burst, Multi+RCB+Sonic eleven, but the equipment switch is so clumsy and slow for this technique that I've finally concluded while writing this post that they aren't worth it).

Can't say if I'll try a Hard run. I'm not really looking for a challenge per se, I'm just having fun with this game, and decided I wouldn't let it suffer MP3: Corruption's fate.

EDIT: Finally figured out how to use the Arkham East entrance to Intensive Treatment... did anyone know about this already and try using it after meeting Ivy in the gardens?

This thread's alive, huh?  May as well finally report on what I've been doing, as I didn't tell anyone online that I've been studying this game for a run.

And indeed, I finally completed a run in which I wasn't killed instantly somewhere this morning.  2:10:50-ish, easy % single segment (timed from the point at which Batman can move under player control and stopping when the Pull Down prompt disappears when the final Titan Joker tug-of-war is finished; I may be about a second or two off given when I hit start and stop on my watch).  If I can't get lower by Monday, I'll try submitting it.  There's about five minutes worth of mistakes in there (just over half my fault, the rest I blame on the randomosity of the game), evenly spread throughout unfortunately, not counting potentially faster routes I don't yet know of (I'd be surprised if it passed verification).  Still, it's pretty good by me, considering I don't yet have the amount of experience with this game that I'd usually prefer before tackling a speed run (today marks the 18th day of speed run study for me, IIRC; prior to that, I'd only played through the game twice, not really paying any attention to things where this site would be concerned).  It wasn't wholly unwatchable, which I can't say for my other runs, and they're on the site, so what the hell.

Anywho, if it helps anyone, here are my notes, though they're slightly outdated and there's a sequence break in there I won't be using due to the combination of difficulty, only saving a few seconds, and the fact that it forces a reset if messed up (I have no patience for restarting as it is, especially not when a game needs [b]10 minutes[/b] to get back to the action):

http://masterzed.cavesofnarshe.com/Misc/BatmanAA.txt

The largest omission is probably using the RCB for the second Zsasz encounter to avoid potential bad luck.  Without the RCB, Zsasz can either be a couple seconds quicker or waste over half a minute simply by never showing his face.  I may have also omitted that you can ignore the three armed thugs that come out of the elevator in Medical just prior to Scarecrow.  Both are in this run.

If the notes don't make it clear, my upgrade choices are Critical Strikes, Twin Batarang, Triple Batarang, RCB, and the two Cryptographic Sequencer upgrades.  Critical Strikes should be obvious (more EXP, shorter fights, no downsides) as should multi-Batarangs, even though the not-so-obvious use is in their ability to rapid fire Batarangs in general at Titan Ivy (so can RCB and Sonic, but weapon switching for that purpose is clumsy, the RCB is slow to recharge, and the Sonic's recharge time is so godawful that it's practically worthless for this fight no matter how you look at it).  The RCB, as mentioned, is only for Zsasz, and the power upgrade seems useful for the occasional double and triple cracking of trap consoles.  Frequencies are always random, but with the power upgrade, you only need the four cardinal directions to find them.  You need more precision without it, and that can sometimes be costly.

I'm not sure if two hours can be broken yet.  2:05 would be about optimal from what I know now, and that will likely drop.  There is one thing that's bothering me though: what's the exact cause of the empty quick Batarang "bug?"  I'm not even sure it's a bug really.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, try this; throw quick Batarangs as rapidly and fast as possible, while also throwing in multi-Batarangs.  At some point, the QB's stop working, and you have to use a manual single Batarang to restore them.  This is bad news for Titan Ivy since you never want to stop the Batarang chain if you don't have to, and multi-Batarangs allow for three-shot bursts (Multi+RCB should allow a seven-shot burst, Multi+RCB+Sonic eleven, but the equipment switch is so clumsy and slow for this technique that I've finally concluded while writing this post that they aren't worth it).

Can't say if I'll try a Hard run.  I'm not really looking for a challenge per se, I'm just having fun with this game, and decided I wouldn't let it suffer MP3: Corruption's fate.

EDIT: Finally figured out how to use the Arkham East entrance to Intensive Treatment... did anyone know about this already and try using it after meeting Ivy in the gardens?

Christian

2010-01-24 03:22:40 am

I'm sure a run as fast as 2:05 would be very interessting to watch, at least for me. So please consider uploading it somewhere in case SDA verifiers really reject it.

sshplur

Edit history:

sshplur: 2010-01-24 04:56:30 am

2010-01-24 04:49:48 am

That's a nice time, Master Zed! My best in Normal mode so far is 2:12. 2 hours might be breakable on Easy but I don't think so for Normal or Hard, at least at this point. I always have 5 upgrades left over towards the end of the game, which I reserve for armour upgrades to recharge my health if I'm nearly dead.

My only upgrades were:
-Critical Strikes
-Sonic Batarang
-Sonic Shock Batarang
-Multi-frequency Detonator (only for the Titans to instant stun them)
-Cryptographic Range Amplifier
-Cryptographic Power Amplifier (like Master Zed, this saves you a lot of time dicking around trying to precise)

I did some testing with the combat and here's what I got:
[font=courier new]ATTACK DAMAGE - NORMAL MODE
These will never do any damage:
Cape Stun = 0 hp
+Evasion
+Counter
+Batarang (will also break the combo until upgraded)

Note: Yes, Counter does 0 damage until your combo is at 2 hits. Get 2 thugs and counter them for 10 minutes, with your combo never reaching 3 hits, for proof.

Combo at 0 or 1 hit:
Strike = 1 hp
Flying Kick = 1 hp (despite immediately starting your combo at 2 hits)
Takedown = all hp

Combo at 2 or more hits:
Strike = 3 hp (when you mis-time a Critical Strike)
Counter = 3 hp
Batarang Power Up = 2 hp
Critical Strike = 6 hp
Glide Kick = 3 hp
Combo Throw = 6 hp (the dude thrown and anyone else hit by him will take that damage)
Takedown = all hp
+Combo Instant Takedown

OHKO: when there is one thug left, any of the following will kill them outright, despite their remaining HP.
Flying Kick (invaluable to finishing predator parts quickly)
Counter
Combo Strike
Critical Strike

Note: normal Strike won't KO the thug unless they only have 1 hp left.

ENEMY HP - NORMAL MODE
Note: only grunts that have to be fought were tested, so those during boss fights and predator modes are not counted.

Intensive Treatment 1 = 9 hp
Medical Facility = 10 hp
Batcave 1 = 12 hp
Arkham Mansion = 13 hp
Outside Penitentiary = 15 hp
Penitentiary = 15 hp
Botanical Gardens 1 = 15 hp
Intensive Treatment 2 = 17 hp
Batcave 2 = 17 hp

Note: all this data assumes a normal Strike does 1 hp damage. Everything checks out, so far.
[/font]
Taking all that into account, Critical Strike should be your only weapon in combat because of the power up and it is much faster than Combo Takedown or Combo Throw. The time it takes for either Takedown or Throw you can spend dealing massive damage to the thugs with Critical Strikes and probably kill them, too.

However, I would only recommend Combo Throw if you're not confident that you will evade/counter every single attack, so you won't lose the power boost and buy a little breathing time. Countering isn't hard but the fact that the game slows you down when someone does attack, forcing you to counter because you can't beat them, seriously fucks you over. And the camera constantly swinging around, following you, and being a pile of shit doesn't help. THAT IS NOT A GOOD COMBAT SYSTEM Sad

That's a nice time, Master Zed! My best in Normal mode so far is 2:12. 2 hours might be breakable on Easy but I don't think so for Normal or Hard, at least at this point. I always have 5 upgrades left over towards the end of the game, which I reserve for armour upgrades to recharge my health if I'm nearly dead.

My only upgrades were:
-Critical Strikes
-Sonic Batarang
-Sonic Shock Batarang
-Multi-frequency Detonator (only for the Titans to instant stun them)
-Cryptographic Range Amplifier
-Cryptographic Power Amplifier (like Master Zed, this saves you a lot of time dicking around trying to precise)

I did some testing with the combat and here's what I got:
[font=courier new]ATTACK DAMAGE - NORMAL MODE
These will never do any damage:
Cape Stun =   0 hp
+Evasion
+Counter 
+Batarang (will also break the combo until upgraded)

Note: Yes, Counter does 0 damage until your combo is at 2 hits. Get 2 thugs and counter them for 10 minutes, with your combo never reaching 3 hits, for proof.

Combo at 0 or 1 hit:
Strike =      1 hp 
Flying Kick = 1 hp (despite immediately starting your combo at 2 hits)
Takedown =    all hp

Combo at 2 or more hits:
Strike =            3 hp (when you mis-time a Critical Strike)
Counter =           3 hp 
Batarang Power Up = 2 hp
[b]Critical Strike =   6 hp[/b]
Glide Kick =        3 hp
Combo Throw =       6 hp (the dude thrown and anyone else hit by him will take that damage)
Takedown =          all hp
+Combo Instant Takedown

OHKO: when there is one thug left, any of the following will kill them outright, despite their remaining HP.
Flying Kick (invaluable to finishing predator parts quickly)
Counter
Combo Strike
Critical Strike

Note: normal Strike won't KO the thug unless they only have 1 hp left.

ENEMY HP - NORMAL MODE
Note: only grunts that have to be fought were tested, so those during boss fights and predator modes are not counted.

Intensive Treatment 1 =  9 hp
Medical Facility      = 10 hp
Batcave 1             = 12 hp
Arkham Mansion        = 13 hp
Outside Penitentiary  = 15 hp
Penitentiary          = 15 hp
Botanical Gardens 1   = 15 hp
Intensive Treatment 2 = 17 hp
Batcave 2             = 17 hp

Note: all this data assumes a normal Strike does 1 hp damage. Everything checks out, so far.
[/font]
Taking all that into account, Critical Strike should be your only weapon in combat because of the power up and it is much faster than Combo Takedown or Combo Throw. The time it takes for either Takedown or Throw you can spend dealing massive damage to the thugs with Critical Strikes and probably kill them, too.

However, I would only recommend Combo Throw if you're not confident that you will evade/counter every single attack, so you won't lose the power boost and buy a little breathing time. Countering isn't hard but the fact that the game slows you down when someone does attack, forcing you to counter because you can't beat them, seriously fucks you over. And the camera constantly swinging around, following you, and being a pile of shit doesn't help. THAT IS NOT A GOOD COMBAT SYSTEM :(

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2010-01-25 06:15:30 am

2010-01-25 05:50:32 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

^ At least I was right about the upgrades.

Wait, why are you saying not to do takedowns? Can't you just continue your combo (and thus critical strikes) after the takedown? Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I thought you could. It seems like eliminating a guy with an instant kill (either an instant or ground, depending on the circumstance) would be a good thing. Yes, you can kill with critical strikes eventually, but I fail to see how that would be quicker. Why not just instant-kill a couple of guys along the way and spend all of your critical strikes on everyone else until they're all dead?

Spikey

2010-01-25 11:39:44 am

Join Club Nintendo today Mac!

At the very least it seems like combo takedowns would be useful for getting rid of the knife guys and stun baton guys.

Master ZED

2010-01-25 12:12:56 pm

Quote from InsipidMuckyWater:

Wait, why are you saying not to do takedowns? Can't you just continue your combo (and thus critical strikes) after the takedown? Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I thought you could. It seems like eliminating a guy with an instant kill (either an instant or ground, depending on the circumstance) would be a good thing. Yes, you can kill with critical strikes eventually, but I fail to see how that would be quicker. Why not just instant-kill a couple of guys along the way and spend all of your critical strikes on everyone else until they're all dead?

Because instant takedowns can be slow, both from animation and in the case of any dramatic slowdown. Critical Strikes, at least on Easy and Normal, require only two wheels around the group to crush everything (Normal might need three, but still, not that slow at all), and the only slowdown comes from the Power Strike (if it can't be avoided with a Combo Batarang or Counter as the third hit) and the killshot (canceled with X). In the case of three thugs, maybe you'd have a point, but then there's the cost, and how often three thug situations will pop up when you can finally afford to have it, which I don't think you will until after the Sequencer, when I believe all further upgrades beyond that utility are moot.

There's also the fact that thugs tend to circle a bit around Batman, waiting for him to become vulnerable again. You don't want to be in the middle of a group, as that can lead to a mistimed Critical when you need a Counter to continue the combo. Thug groups are best "eaten" like a donut, or perhaps a cinnamon roll, in that in order to keep a Critical freeflow going with a very reliable chance of not having to stop, you have to use a circular or spiral pattern, the latter darting back out of the center at the end to repeat.

As for knives and stun rods, stun rods should be taken care of first anyway, and you only need one cape stun at best for knives, which is faster than an ITD overall. ITD's are good for normal runs, but you give them too much credit for a speed run. Hard mode might be a different story, but on Easy? Pfft.

[quote="InsipidMuckyWater"]Wait, why are you saying not to do takedowns?  Can't you just continue your combo (and thus critical strikes) after the takedown?  Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I thought you could.  It seems like eliminating a guy with an instant kill (either an instant or ground, depending on the circumstance) would be a good thing.  Yes, you can kill with critical strikes eventually, but I fail to see how that would be quicker.  Why not just instant-kill a couple of guys along the way and spend all of your critical strikes on everyone else until they're all dead?[/quote]Because instant takedowns can be slow, both from animation and in the case of any dramatic slowdown.  Critical Strikes, at least on Easy and Normal, require only two wheels around the group to crush everything (Normal might need three, but still, not that slow at all), and the only slowdown comes from the Power Strike (if it can't be avoided with a Combo Batarang or Counter as the third hit) and the killshot (canceled with X).  In the case of three thugs, [i]maybe[/i] you'd have a point, but then there's the cost, and how often three thug situations will pop up when you can finally afford to have it, which I don't think you will until after the Sequencer, when I believe all further upgrades beyond that utility are moot.

There's also the fact that thugs tend to circle a bit around Batman, waiting for him to become vulnerable again.  You don't want to be in the middle of a group, as that can lead to a mistimed Critical when you need a Counter to continue the combo.  Thug groups are best "eaten" like a donut, or perhaps a cinnamon roll, in that in order to keep a Critical freeflow going with a very reliable chance of not having to stop, you have to use a circular or spiral pattern, the latter darting back out of the center at the end to repeat.

As for knives and stun rods, stun rods should be taken care of first anyway, and you only need one cape stun at best for knives, which is faster than an ITD overall.  ITD's are good for normal runs, but you give them too much credit for a speed run.  Hard mode might be a different story, but on Easy?  Pfft.

sshplur

Edit history:

sshplur: 2010-01-25 09:18:58 pm

2010-01-25 08:58:12 pm

It depends on the situation for Normal and Hard (Master Zed covered this), but I know in Easy mode you shouldn't use Take Downs at all because every single thug has only 9 HP. Their HP never rises though out the whole game, so they will KO from 2 Critical Strikes once you get your combo started:

-1st thug - strike, strike, combo strike = -5 hp, and only needs 1 critical strike to KO
or
-1st thug - flying kick = -1 hp, and needs 2 critical strikes to KO
-all other thugs - 2x critical strikes = -12 hp

Batman is already slow as hell and takes forever to do/recover from anything, and Take Down is no exception. The time is takes to Take Down is better off spent smacking everyone in Easy. Unless you deliberately break the combo to avoid the stupid dramatic slow downs, you could KO 3 guys in the time it takes to Take Down one.

Edit:
Speaking of Easy mode, here's some differences between it and Normal:
-all thugs have the same HP = 9 HP.
-Scarecrow spins around slower.
-Bosses have a lot less HP.
-Batman takes less damage, which is a good thing until certain fights like the very first Titan at the beginning of the game (Normal and Hard mode have the advantage for this fight).

It depends on the situation for Normal and Hard (Master Zed covered this), but I know in Easy mode you shouldn't use Take Downs at all because every single thug has only 9 HP. Their HP never rises though out the whole game, so they will KO from 2 Critical Strikes once you get your combo started:

-1st thug - strike, strike, combo strike = -5 hp, and only needs 1 critical strike to KO
or
-1st thug - flying kick = -1 hp, and needs 2 critical strikes to KO
-all other thugs - 2x critical strikes = -12 hp

Batman is already slow as hell and takes forever to do/recover from anything, and Take Down is no exception. The time is takes to Take Down is better off spent smacking everyone in Easy. Unless you deliberately break the combo to avoid the stupid dramatic slow downs, you could KO 3 guys in the time it takes to Take Down one.

Edit:
Speaking of Easy mode, here's some differences between it and Normal:
-all thugs have the same HP = 9 HP.
-Scarecrow spins around slower.
-Bosses have a lot less HP.
-Batman takes less damage, which is a good thing until certain fights like the very first Titan at the beginning of the game (Normal and Hard mode have the advantage for this fight).

Master ZED

2010-01-25 11:37:03 pm

Quote from sshplur:

Unless you deliberately break the combo to avoid the stupid dramatic slow downs

No need. X cancels them in most situations. There are few exceptions to this, such as the third combo hit (unless it's the finisher) and when hitting Titans with batarangs. Titan takedowns can also be canceled, but there's still a small pause you can't eliminate.

Master ZED

2010-01-26 02:20:38 pm

Just did a new run after deleting the 2:10. I'll time it in a bit, but I expect to fall on either 2:08/2:09. The only serious blunder was Scarecrow 2, where I lost a minute to getting spooked.

That doesn't surprise me in the least though; it's the hardest part of the game for me, so getting spooked there in some way is inevitable. Something about that place is constructed so that my depth perception is bad, but in this case, I just second guessed myself too much because of where I was at. I'll try to do a faster run and maybe submit this one in the interim (I'll consider it once I time it), but as my gameplay is still far from perfect, I'd need awhile to get that extra few minutes anyway (or a lot of luck, which works against me in this game a lot). If Scarecrow 2 is the only seriously bad part upon reviewing it, I'll send Mike a PM. The run will be available one way or another once the verifiers have seen it. Tongue

Anyway, there are two other parts that I need help with before starting another run:

1. Intensive Treatment Lobby 1. My strategy changes constantly because I can't figure out the fastest path in that place at the beginning of the game. The revisit, oddly enough, is pretty easy now that I'm not relying on the gargoyles for a distraction, which only worked 50% of the time; a glide kick on the first henchman is just as good.

At any rate, before I do another one, I need a hard strategy for Titan Ivy's second phase. I can't figure out a good balance between killing guards and throwing batarangs; I keep thinking I'm losing a minute there, but I have no idea. Anyone got any tips?

Just did a new run after deleting the 2:10.  I'll time it in a bit, but I expect to fall on either 2:08/2:09.  The only serious blunder was Scarecrow 2, where I lost a minute to getting spooked.

That doesn't surprise me in the least though; it's the hardest part of the game for me, so getting spooked there in some way is inevitable.  Something about that place is constructed so that my depth perception is bad, but in this case, I just second guessed myself too much because of where I was at.  I'll try to do a faster run and maybe submit this one in the interim (I'll consider it once I time it), but as my gameplay is still far from perfect, I'd need awhile to get that extra few minutes anyway (or a lot of luck, which works against me in this game a lot).  If Scarecrow 2 is the only seriously bad part upon reviewing it, I'll send Mike a PM.  The run will be available one way or another once the verifiers have seen it. :P

Anyway, there are two other parts that I need help with before starting another run:

1. Intensive Treatment Lobby 1.  My strategy changes constantly because I can't figure out the fastest path in that place at the beginning of the game.  The revisit, oddly enough, is pretty easy now that I'm not relying on the gargoyles for a distraction, which only worked 50% of the time; a glide kick on the first henchman is just as good.

At any rate, before I do another one, I need a hard strategy for Titan Ivy's second phase.  I can't figure out a good balance between killing guards and throwing batarangs; I keep thinking I'm losing a minute there, but I have no idea.  Anyone got any tips?

Rudy06

2010-01-26 04:29:11 pm

I know you've put a lot more planning into your run, but in those situations this is what I do.

1. Go right, explosive gel on Wall and rappel up to the middle gargoyle on the right side. Glide kick the guy on the walk way, then detonate the explosive Gel and ground takedown that guy. Then I go back up to the gargoyle, then glide kick one of the last two guards, then combo strike from there. I'm not sure how this pairs up timewise to what is listed on your notes though.

2. I don't worry about the guards, as much as possible. I try to put myself in positions where vines strike the most and let them hold the guards. Last time through I think I only comboed 3 guards. I did most of my batarang throwing while they were stuck, because as soon as Ivy goes to the phase where she shoots, all the guards are instantly incapacitated. The far left side seems to get struck the most, to me, so after all the guards are placed, I run to the right, hoping the vines will get them.

Hope this helps somewhat! I'm going to try another run tomorrow. By the way, in the elevator shaft where you mention the second shimmy can be avoided, are the pipes that you are mentioning around the corner on the left (tucked under the previous hall)?

I know you've put a lot more planning into your run, but in those situations this is what I do.

1. Go right, explosive gel on Wall and rappel up to the middle gargoyle on the right side. Glide kick the guy on the walk way, then detonate the explosive Gel and ground takedown that guy. Then I go back up to the gargoyle, then glide kick one of the last two guards, then combo strike from there.  I'm not sure how this pairs up timewise to what is listed on your notes though.

2. I don't worry about the guards, as much as possible.  I try to put myself in positions where vines strike the most and let them hold the guards. Last time through I think I only comboed 3 guards.  I did most of my batarang throwing while they were stuck, because as soon as Ivy goes to the phase where she shoots, all the guards are instantly incapacitated.  The far left side seems to get struck the most, to me, so after all the guards are placed, I run to the right, hoping the vines will get them.

Hope this helps somewhat! I'm going to try another run tomorrow. By the way, in the elevator shaft where you mention the second shimmy can be avoided, are the pipes that you are mentioning around the corner on the left (tucked under the previous hall)?

Master ZED

2010-01-26 05:41:03 pm

Quote from Rudy06:

1. Go right, explosive gel on Wall and rappel up to the middle gargoyle on the right side. Glide kick the guy on the walk way, then detonate the explosive Gel and ground takedown that guy. Then I go back up to the gargoyle, then glide kick one of the last two guards, then combo strike from there. I'm not sure how this pairs up timewise to what is listed on your notes though.

That's Sanatorium, but I forgot about the fact that there are two thugs in front of the wall when you first enter, so this still helps.

Quote from Rudy06:

By the way, in the elevator shaft where you mention the second shimmy can be avoided, are the pipes that you are mentioning around the corner on the left (tucked under the previous hall)?

It's in the elevator shaft, to be precise. You can see the pipe if you look out over the gap and down-left, as it runs along a wall/fence thing. That pipe runs into and creates some tiny standable ground in the corner, but don't expect to get on it; you're likely going to end up on the slope and have to press against the wall, quickly flipping the camera around and pointing up to grapple before you fall off. You also have to watch for the terminal fall trigger, which runs into that area, but not completely.

Okay, the newest run is actually a little better than I thought. From taking control of Batman to the Pull Down prompt disappearing on the final UBC to Titan Joker, disregarding the 20 second pause time that ends the first disc and the 20 seconds beginning the 2nd disc (I read somewhere that was the policy for multi-disc/tape runs), the final time comes to about 2:07:34. So I shaved off three minutes from the other crappier run.

Not bad. Given what happened in Scarecrow 2, I wasn't expecting that. Think I'll PM Mike tonight if he doesn't see this post first (That's Easy any % single segment if ya do). Smiley

[quote="Rudy06"]1. Go right, explosive gel on Wall and rappel up to the middle gargoyle on the right side. Glide kick the guy on the walk way, then detonate the explosive Gel and ground takedown that guy. Then I go back up to the gargoyle, then glide kick one of the last two guards, then combo strike from there.  I'm not sure how this pairs up timewise to what is listed on your notes though.[/quote]That's Sanatorium, but I forgot about the fact that there are two thugs in front of the wall when you first enter, so this still helps.

[quote="Rudy06"]By the way, in the elevator shaft where you mention the second shimmy can be avoided, are the pipes that you are mentioning around the corner on the left (tucked under the previous hall)?
[/quote]It's in the elevator shaft, to be precise.  You can see the pipe if you look out over the gap and down-left, as it runs along a wall/fence thing.  That pipe runs into and creates some tiny standable ground in the corner, but don't expect to get on it; you're likely going to end up on the slope and have to press against the wall, quickly flipping the camera around and pointing up to grapple before you fall off.  You also have to watch for the terminal fall trigger, which runs into that area, but not completely.

Okay, the newest run is actually a little better than I thought.  From taking control of Batman to the Pull Down prompt disappearing on the final UBC to Titan Joker, disregarding the 20 second pause time that ends the first disc and the 20 seconds beginning the 2nd disc (I read somewhere that was the policy for multi-disc/tape runs), the final time comes to about 2:07:34.  So I shaved off three minutes from the other crappier run.

Not bad.  Given what happened in Scarecrow 2, I wasn't expecting that.  Think I'll PM Mike tonight if he doesn't see this post first (That's Easy any % single segment if ya do). :)

sshplur

2010-01-27 01:27:45 am

Quote from Master ZED:

The only serious blunder was Scarecrow 2, where I lost a minute to getting spooked.

You mean you got caught and died or you just stood still and waited for him?