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Ate the extra spicy banana
Quote from Cereth:
Quote from mazei:
Today I learned something new, if you level up while taking a core/shard, you can't do the duplication glitch. At least I think this is why while trying out routes I can never get the Hanging Garden dupe.


You can't get it if it level you up.  The same reason you can't get a dupe in Mount Zand. It's because some kind of animation plays that causes loss of control of the kid.

I don't run NG Any% but the few times I have, I leveled up on the black tonic that's a little bit before the core area. You should be fine if you pick up all the black tonic and health tonics in melting pot.


It's possible to level up and get the dupe if you pick it up while rolling (I did this 3 times in a row when I failed miserably to correctly do the first doorskip)
Ate the extra spicy banana
Also found a fix to a problem I was having earlier; FPS was locked at a max of 43 FPS for me, which explains why it looks like Mazei and Red_Buddah are moving so much faster. Time to have some fun with this :3
Every skip that depends on air rolling basically requires you to roll immediately as you get the damage boost. At the moment that the hit lands and sends you flying, press your roll key. This allows you to roll once even before the "recover" button pops up. This is required for all the air-roll-based skips (Wharf District boss, Cinderbrick Fort boss, Queen Anne boosts in Roathus Lagoon). If you practice this a bunch, it becomes easy pretty quickly.
Ate the extra spicy banana
Quote from Vulajin:
Every skip that depends on air rolling basically requires you to roll immediately as you get the damage boost. At the moment that the hit lands and sends you flying, press your roll key. This allows you to roll once even before the "recover" button pops up. This is required for all the air-roll-based skips (Wharf District boss, Cinderbrick Fort boss, Queen Anne boosts in Roathus Lagoon). If you practice this a bunch, it becomes easy pretty quickly.


Ok. The first door skip is the hardest one for me; It just refuses to work sometimes (perhaps I'm rolling slightly too soon as I'm being hit rather than just after being hit). The Queen Anne boosts are getting easier by comparison. Finished a run with 20:00:05 after failing primarily on the wharf district and cinderbrick door skips.

Thanks for the post Vulajin :3
Ate the extra spicy banana
Ugh, 19:06 and that infernal wharf door is still trolling me hard. All the other skips are getting much easier, except for that one infernal wharf door. It just doesn't want to work for me 90% of the time.
Quote from 2bitmarksman:
Quote from Cereth:
Quote from mazei:
Today I learned something new, if you level up while taking a core/shard, you can't do the duplication glitch. At least I think this is why while trying out routes I can never get the Hanging Garden dupe.


You can't get it if it level you up.  The same reason you can't get a dupe in Mount Zand. It's because some kind of animation plays that causes loss of control of the kid.

I don't run NG Any% but the few times I have, I leveled up on the black tonic that's a little bit before the core area. You should be fine if you pick up all the black tonic and health tonics in melting pot.


It's possible to level up and get the dupe if you pick it up while rolling (I did this 3 times in a row when I failed miserably to correctly do the first doorskip)


The reason it sometimes works is that you are leveling up off of the second core rather than the first. That way you already have both before losing control.
Ate the extra spicy banana
Quote from Red_Buddha:
Quote from 2bitmarksman:
Quote from Cereth:
Quote from mazei:
Today I learned something new, if you level up while taking a core/shard, you can't do the duplication glitch. At least I think this is why while trying out routes I can never get the Hanging Garden dupe.


You can't get it if it level you up.  The same reason you can't get a dupe in Mount Zand. It's because some kind of animation plays that causes loss of control of the kid.

I don't run NG Any% but the few times I have, I leveled up on the black tonic that's a little bit before the core area. You should be fine if you pick up all the black tonic and health tonics in melting pot.


It's possible to level up and get the dupe if you pick it up while rolling (I did this 3 times in a row when I failed miserably to correctly do the first doorskip)


The reason it sometimes works is that you are leveling up off of the second core rather than the first. That way you already have both before losing control.


Ah, that must be it. Thanks for correcting me :3
Btw if you are still having any trouble with any of the skips you can always post videos of your attempts if you have them. I'm sure one of us will be able to answer your questions. Smiley
Edit history:
Cereth: 2013-12-04 09:11:13 pm
Yeah it would really help to see a video to see what you're doing wrong.

Also, I believe you don't get knocked into the air more than twice from the same enemy, so I think if you miss it twice you'll need to try something else (or reset).

The first door skip is quite simple though, in my opinion. As soon as you're knocked into the air, just spam the roll key, and aim for the door.

Are you using mouse movement? Using WASD or Controller to move will make some skips harder, other skips impossible, and your entire run a lot slower.
I don't think there's enough charact
Quote from 2bitmarksman:
Quote from Red_Buddha:
Quote from 2bitmarksman:
Quote from Cereth:
Quote from mazei:
Today I learned something new, if you level up while taking a core/shard, you can't do the duplication glitch. At least I think this is why while trying out routes I can never get the Hanging Garden dupe.


You can't get it if it level you up.  The same reason you can't get a dupe in Mount Zand. It's because some kind of animation plays that causes loss of control of the kid.

I don't run NG Any% but the few times I have, I leveled up on the black tonic that's a little bit before the core area. You should be fine if you pick up all the black tonic and health tonics in melting pot.


It's possible to level up and get the dupe if you pick it up while rolling (I did this 3 times in a row when I failed miserably to correctly do the first doorskip)


The reason it sometimes works is that you are leveling up off of the second core rather than the first. That way you already have both before losing control.


Ah, that must be it. Thanks for correcting me :3



This needs more quotes that project our opinion on this specific subject.
Perfect Rolls are a thing. Get on that, Bastion runners.
Quote from ItsMarill_:
Quote from 2bitmarksman:
Quote from Red_Buddha:
Quote from 2bitmarksman:
Quote from Cereth:
Quote from mazei:
Today I learned something new, if you level up while taking a core/shard, you can't do the duplication glitch. At least I think this is why while trying out routes I can never get the Hanging Garden dupe.


You can't get it if it level you up.  The same reason you can't get a dupe in Mount Zand. It's because some kind of animation plays that causes loss of control of the kid.

I don't run NG Any% but the few times I have, I leveled up on the black tonic that's a little bit before the core area. You should be fine if you pick up all the black tonic and health tonics in melting pot.


It's possible to level up and get the dupe if you pick it up while rolling (I did this 3 times in a row when I failed miserably to correctly do the first doorskip)


The reason it sometimes works is that you are leveling up off of the second core rather than the first. That way you already have both before losing control.


Ah, that must be it. Thanks for correcting me :3



This needs more quotes that project our opinion on this specific subject.
Perfect Rolls are a thing. Get on that, Bastion runners.


I preached about the importance of perfect rolls to alex when he still played. Also you are a bastion runner too marill. Tongue
I refuse to join the quote train. Also, I have timed my rolls (instead of spamming) since I started running the game, because I'm used to rhythm-based movement from Dust: An Elysian Tail. Spamming confirmed chump technique.
I haven't tried this, but is binding roll to mousewheel effective? Perfect rolls every time?
It would be extra lame, but probably effective.
Ate the extra spicy banana
I could try roll binding to the other direction on the mouse wheel Cereth, though I think that'd be difficult to use/get used to. Also I'm using Mouse movement (as is recommended for speeds sake). I will need to get some proper software for compressing the video capture (I have both dxtory and fraps, but nothing like sony vegas yet to basically just compress it).

Though I could use livestream or twitch instead... Yeah that'd be better, think I'll do that.

Finally on leveling up to 2 in the melting pot is definitely the ideal; Getting 3 more black tonics before the shipment drop can save a lot of time on those smelly scumbags.
Ate the extra spicy banana
Just tried binding roll to a mouse wheel. The wheel needs to (for some reason) stop and be rerolled for it to detect another roll. Had similar problems when binding it to the fire key for weapon 2 so I could shoot the repeater fast.

Possibly its just my mouse, but can't roll spam with it myself. Someone else willing to test it?
I tried it out and had similar results. I was able to use it for essentially perfect rolls but, to do that i had to stop and start the mouse wheel before the first roll had ended which is incredibly awkward to control.
Okay, I have been working all day on a little bit of rerouting for NG any%. The basic gist is, I want to eliminate Melting Pot. The candidate to replace Melting Pot is Prosper Bluff (PB) + Wild Outskirts (WO). The rest of this post is a braindump of my logic, so that future readers understand why the route is what it is (one way or the other).

So the current route is as follows: Wharf District (WD), Melting Pot (MP), Workmen Ward (WW), Hanging Gardens (HG), Cinderbrick Fort (CF), Roathus Lagoon (RL), Colford Cauldron (CC). You pick up the hammer, shield, and Whirl Wind in WD; the Trip Mines in MP; the musket in CF; and the pike in RL. You don't use any of the buildings in the Bastion.

The proposed route changes are as follows:

- Bastion after WD: build the Distillery, equip Werewhiskey. (lose ~2s)
- MP: skip it. (save ~3:30; lose Trip Mines)
- WW: kill the foreman slowly. (lose ~3s)
- HG: reach level 2. (lose ~2s)
- Bastion after HG: build the Memorial, claim The Valediction vigil. (lose ~5.5s)
- RL: three-cycle Queen Anne with Werewhiskey. (lose ~3s)
- Bastion after RL: purchase Pike Vault from the Lost and Found. (lose ~6.5s)
- PB: go there. Use Pike Vaults liberally. (lose ~1:38)
- Bastion after PB: build an extra building. (lose ~4s)
- WO: go there. (lose ~1:32)
- CC: use Pike Vault on the first clip instead of willing your way through. (even)

In total, accounting for all the side effects of skipping MP, it looks like you lose about 6 seconds doing this. In fairness, I'm comparing my best ever performance on MP (which I have done a LOT) with my best performances tonight practicing PB and WO. Additionally, I have oversimplified a lot of the comparisons (e.g. by rounding to the nearest second/half-second). Two advantages to the PB+WO route are that it avoids the RNG inherent in MP, and that there is more room for optimization in PB and WO. However, I'm not sure there are actually 6 seconds of time to save there.

About Pike Vault. It costs 12 seconds to pick up Pike Vault (you need the vigil to afford it). You save at least 20 seconds in PB using Pike Vault, as long as you don't botch it. So this is definitely worth it if you're doing PB.

About Werewhiskey. Without Trip Mines, there's no way to one-cycle Queen Anne, period. You need Werewhiskey so that you can three-cycle her, then pick up the shard and exit RL. I couldn't find a faster way to deal with her without Trip Mines, Grenades, or the Mortar.

TLDR: Looks like you could swap MP out for PB+WO, add Pike Vault, and lose only about six seconds. However, I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on ways to narrow that gap or to possibly tip the scales in favor of PB+WO. I'm really interested in this possibility because MP is dumb and sucks for both the runner and the viewers. Additionally, if you do PB, you can pick up the Hidebound Journal and activate the Evacuation ending. (Literally irrelevant for a speedrun, but possibly a good donation incentive for marathons.)
ill give it a go tomorrow. I actually have a few ideas for prosper that i haven't fully tested
Edit history:
2bitmarksman: 2013-12-08 12:41:16 pm
2bitmarksman: 2013-12-08 12:27:25 pm
Ate the extra spicy banana
I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday when I got to think how freaking slow Melting Pot is. Do you think Mount Zand would be a viable option? Mount Zand doesn't take all that much time, guesstimating about 1:20 or so.

EDIT: Nevermind. I'm a muppet and didn't realize you have to to do Prosper Bluff to unlock the wild outskirts. Hurr Durr.
You also can't do Mount Zand because you can't dupe the core on it, since the cutscene takes away control as soon as you pick up the first core.
Edit history:
2bitmarksman: 2013-12-08 02:46:24 pm
Ate the extra spicy banana
Quote from Vulajin:
You also can't do Mount Zand because you can't dupe the core on it, since the cutscene takes away control as soon as you pick up the first core.


yeah I know that from testing it out a bit. First time I thought it was cuz I leveled to 3 on the shard, found out after running back through it that that is the case :3

Also, to Red_Buddha's idea. I have a total time of about 3:45 for PB + WO vs about 4:08 for Melting pot from my own times (yeah I fail that much). DEFINITELY ON TO SOMETHING HERE. Can definitely get about 3:25 total without falls in PB.
Edit history:
2bitmarksman: 2013-12-08 03:05:47 pm
Ate the extra spicy banana
Quote from Vulajin:
Okay, I have been working all day on a little bit of rerouting for NG any%. The basic gist is, I want to eliminate Melting Pot. The candidate to replace Melting Pot is Prosper Bluff (PB) + Wild Outskirts (WO). The rest of this post is a braindump of my logic, so that future readers understand why the route is what it is (one way or the other).

So the current route is as follows: Wharf District (WD), Melting Pot (MP), Workmen Ward (WW), Hanging Gardens (HG), Cinderbrick Fort (CF), Roathus Lagoon (RL), Colford Cauldron (CC). You pick up the hammer, shield, and Whirl Wind in WD; the Trip Mines in MP; the musket in CF; and the pike in RL. You don't use any of the buildings in the Bastion.

The proposed route changes are as follows:

- Bastion after WD: build the Distillery, equip Werewhiskey. (lose ~2s)
- MP: skip it. (save ~3:30; lose Trip Mines)
- WW: kill the foreman slowly. (lose ~3s)
- HG: reach level 2. (lose ~2s)
- Bastion after HG: build the Memorial, claim The Valediction vigil. (lose ~5.5s)
- RL: three-cycle Queen Anne with Werewhiskey. (lose ~3s)
- Bastion after RL: purchase Pike Vault from the Lost and Found. (lose ~6.5s)
- PB: go there. Use Pike Vaults liberally. (lose ~1:38)
- Bastion after PB: build an extra building. (lose ~4s)
- WO: go there. (lose ~1:32)
- CC: use Pike Vault on the first clip instead of willing your way through. (even)

In total, accounting for all the side effects of skipping MP, it looks like you lose about 6 seconds doing this. In fairness, I'm comparing my best ever performance on MP (which I have done a LOT) with my best performances tonight practicing PB and WO. Additionally, I have oversimplified a lot of the comparisons (e.g. by rounding to the nearest second/half-second). Two advantages to the PB+WO route are that it avoids the RNG inherent in MP, and that there is more room for optimization in PB and WO. However, I'm not sure there are actually 6 seconds of time to save there.

About Pike Vault. It costs 12 seconds to pick up Pike Vault (you need the vigil to afford it). You save at least 20 seconds in PB using Pike Vault, as long as you don't botch it. So this is definitely worth it if you're doing PB.

About Werewhiskey. Without Trip Mines, there's no way to one-cycle Queen Anne, period. You need Werewhiskey so that you can three-cycle her, then pick up the shard and exit RL. I couldn't find a faster way to deal with her without Trip Mines, Grenades, or the Mortar.

TLDR: Looks like you could swap MP out for PB+WO, add Pike Vault, and lose only about six seconds. However, I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on ways to narrow that gap or to possibly tip the scales in favor of PB+WO. I'm really interested in this possibility because MP is dumb and sucks for both the runner and the viewers. Additionally, if you do PB, you can pick up the Hidebound Journal and activate the Evacuation ending. (Literally irrelevant for a speedrun, but possibly a good donation incentive for marathons.)


Werewhisky isn't necessary to 3-cycle Anne. Just do 3 cycles perfectly and the gate will open (no kill, but its not like level matters). Also, why not pick up the shard first? Just curious why it is that it isn't picked up right away unless its to prevent from leveling off of it.

Dunno which it is, but having the extra black tonics upgrade would be the ideal drink to have. Means two more gates can be skipped in PB which could save about 10-15 seconds depending on gate choice.
Edit history:
Vulajin: 2013-12-08 04:25:50 pm
Nice, good find on Werewhiskey. If that's the case, then you can save the 2 seconds that you would have to spend equipping Werewhiskey. Using the Werewhiskey strats, the reason you pick up the shard after killing her is that the shard heals you, canceling the Werewhiskey effect.

Looks like Black Rye is not available until you upgrade the Distillery, which is not usually part of the route. I don't think it's likely to be worthwhile to do this.

(edit) Also, one very important note about this route. In HG, you are going to hit level 2 off of picking up the core. Each core gives 100 XP, and it's possible if you kill too many things that you level up off the first core, preventing you from duping it. To avoid this, just don't kill either giant scumbag in WD. The giant scumbags give 100 XP, and normally you kill one, so just skipping it should put you at a safe XP range so that you level up off the second core instead of the first.
Apparently, the new route is at least good enough for 16:05 in NG any%: http://www.twitch.tv/vulajin/c/3364136