Banjo-Tooie Low%

Edit history:

LLCoolDave: 2008-06-07 03:08:34 pm

2008-06-06 06:00:44 pm

Okay, this idea just randomly popped in my mind some days ago. Recently having played through most of the game again I had some fun trying some weird sequence breaks and tricks and this lead to this idea. Firstly, we need to define low%. The Game's Status screen keeps track of: Jiggies, Notes, Jinjos, Glowbos, Honeycombs, Cheeto Pages and Moves. All Honeycombo, Cheeto Pages and Jinjos are obviously skipped because none of them are required (thus removing the total of theoretically accessible Jiggies to 81). Jiggies and Notes should be as low as required to beat the game, obviously. There are 70 Jiggies needed for the final door to the last fight and 505 Notes required for the last move you need to beat the game (Claw Clamber Boots), although neither of those are set in stone. Considering that the final door looks to be made up of lasers it might be possible to clip through somehow or find another trick to bypass it somehow. Cutting off another 15 Jiggies would most definitly allow some more interesting ideas for route planning. Claw Clamber Boots seem to be required both to access the second floor of Grunty Industries (which most likely cannot be skipped due to necessary Jiggies up there, but there very well might be a way to get up there without them) and finally to reach the Door to Cauldron Keep. The later appears to be fairly high in the air with no immediatly apperant way to climb up elsewhere, but I'm not dismissing this option just yet. If it were possible to get up there without the Claw Clamber Boots we could just barely skip them in a 70 jiggies run, too, and with one or two more discoveries for (currently impossible) jiggies we could drop Hatch, too. Taxi Pack is required for far too many jiggies to be skipable in a 70 Jiggies run (although it is skipable on its own in non-low%-settings), but if we were to find a way to also skip the final door it could be dropped as well. However, that's pure speculation and likely not going to happen. Reaching Cauldron Keep without the Claw Clamber Boots looks even more impossible than glitching through the 70 Jiggies Door.

Thus the final conclusion to be made is how to handle moves and glowbos. Glowbos are required to make use of Wumba and Mumbo whereas Moves enhance the abilities of the two protagonists. My say would be to treat both equally and trying to minimize the sum of moves learned and glowbos collected while going for least Jiggies/Notes. Any objections to that approach?

Here's a list of dependencies I have compiled while rewatching the 100% run hosted on SDA. I skipped Jinjos, Cheeto Pages and Honeycombs because they will not be collected at all anyway:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Egg Aim (essential)

Breegul Blaster (required)
J: MT: Targitzan's Temple(Slightly Sacred Chamber)
J: MT: Targitzan's Temple(Really Sacred Chamber)
J: TL: Inside Chompa's Belly
J: GI: Clinkers Cavern
CK: Required for Grunty Battle

Grip Grab (essential?)
J: MT: Prison Compound?
Access Plateau (essential)
20 Notes on Jinjo Roof?
WW: 10 Notes on Area51 Gate?
WW: Climb to Wumba?
WW: Reach moving Platform switch?
Activate Clifftop Railway Station
-J2: Reunite Styracosaurus Family
JRL: Climb Seaweed Sanctum?
M: TL: Taxi Pack? (This or Pack Whack)

Fire Eggs
Access Pine Grove (essential)
J2: TL: Oogle Boogle Cave: Warm Cavemen
J2: HP: Defeat Chilli Billi & Chilly Willi
J2: Warm Sabremen
J2: Jiggy Gallery Shootinggame

Bill Drill (essential?)
GGM: Access to Gloomy Caverns
-J: Power Hut Basement
GGM: Access to Generator Cave
-J: Top of Generator Room
GGM: Ordnance Storage Entrance
-M: Beak Bayonet
--J2: Ordnance Storage
Extra Air and fast swimming (Fish SM)
J2: WW: Test your Strength
J: JRL: Access Waste Disposal
MT: Reveal Mumbo Plate in Dinosaur Cave
-J2: Reunite Styracosaurus Family
MT: 20 Notes in Rock (this or large T-Rex)
J: MT: Drill in Terry's Nest
GI: Unscrew Platforms
-J2: Wash the clothes
-J2: Defeat Weldar
-J2: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic
-J2: Toxic Bottom
J2: TL: Feed Cavemen
J2: HP: Free Alien Children
CC: Get Beans
-Access Giant Cheese?
--J2: Cheese Jiggy
-Access Sackhopping Racetrack
--J2: Win Triathlon
J: GGM: Return Rat from MT Prison

Beak Bayonet
J: GGM: Ordnance Storage

Grenade Eggs
J: WW: Test your Strength? (Do Clockwork Kazooie Eggs work, too?)
J2: WW: Mr Patch
JRL: Open Split Pad? (appears to be unnecessary)
-3 Doublones (jump pad) (Appear to be not necessary)
-M: Wing Whack
JRL: Save Room Rent (2 doublones)
J: JRL: Inside the Big Fish (collect inside Jolly Roger's) (Likely skipable with submarine)
JRL: Blow up Wall in Mumbo's Skull
-J2: JRL: Hatch Egg.
WW: Free Gobi
-J2: HP: Ice Train Station
WW: Free Styracosaurus
-J2: TL: Reunite Styracosaurus Family
J2: CC: Jiggy Gallery Shootinggame
J2: HP: Kickball Tournament
J2: GI: Toxic Waste Shooting Gallery
J2: GI: Fight Weldar
J2: GI: Bottom of Toxic Waste

Pack Whack
Ultimate double jump (awesome)
M: TL: Taxi Pack? (This or Grip Grab)
CK: Skip Toxic (This or Sack Pack) (essential)
J: GI: Waste Compactor (This or Snooze Pack)

Split Up (essential)

Airborne Egg Aiming
J: WW: UFO Minigame(?)
J: WW: Balloon Burst Minigame
J: WW: Mr Patch

Ice Eggs
J: JRL: Power UFO
-J2: HP: Rescue Alien Children
J: HP: Defeat Chilli Billi & Chilly Willi
J2: Jiggy Gallery Shootinggame

Wing Whack

Sub-Aqua Egg Aiming (Appears to be obsoleted by Submarine)

Talon Torpedo
J: JRL: Inside Fish
J: JRL: Temple of the Fishes
Access Wasteland (essential)
JRL: Open UFO
-J2: JRL: Power UFO
J: TL: Water for the Dinosaur

Clockwork Kazooie Eggs
J: TL: Blow up Guards
J: JRL: Smugglers' Cavern?
J: CC: Open Safe
GI: Enter Building without Chuffy
J: GI: Blow up Guard Robots

Springy Step Shoes
TL: Reach top Area?
-Reveal Fly Plate by defeating Terry
Access Quagmire (essential)
J: GGM: Behind Waterfall

Taxi Pack
J: MT: Carry Terrydactylus Baby (requires Hatch)
MT: Carry Ill Styracosaurus
-J2: Reunite Styracosaurus Family
GI: Get Batteries
-Access Waste Disposal Plant
--M: Snooze Pack
-Access Electromagnetic Chamber
--J: Defeat Weldar
--J: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic
-J: Access Packing Room (Twinkle Packing Minigame)
-J: Toxic Waste Shooting Gallery
J: WW: Reunite Bear Family
J2: HP: Transport Sabreman
J2: CC: Win Triathlon
J2: CC: Cheese Jiggy

Hatch
J2: MT: Hatch Terry's Eggs (requires Taxi Pack for final baby)
J: JRL: Hatch Egg.
CC: Hatch Eggs for floating
-J2: Win Triathlon
J2: HP: Rescue Alien Children

Claw Clamber Boots
GI: Access second floor? (essential?)
-Access outdoor flypads
WW: Return to TL
-J: TL: Feed Cavemen
J2: HP: Defeat Chilli Billi & Chilly Willi
Access Cauldron Keep (essential)
J2: GI: Clinkers Cavern

Snooze Pack
TL: Cross Stomping Plains
-J: HP: Hidden Behind Ice Window

Leg Spring

Shack Pack
J: HP: Get Hot Fish and Feed Boggy
J2: GI: Waste Disposal Plant Oil Pipeline?
M: Sack Pack
J: CC: Jello Castle (Supposed to be skipable by Polygon clipping)
J2: CC: Cheese Jiggy
J2: GI: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic

Glide
J: HP: Rescue Alien Children

Sack Pack
J2: CC: Win Triathlon

-----------------------------
Mumbo:

Isle o' Hags
Heal Styracosaurus
-J: Reunite Styracosaurus Family

Mayaham Temple:
Open Large Doors
-J: Jade Snake Hole
-M: Grip Grab
Open up Fly Pad
-J: Flypad top of temple?

Glitter Gulch Mine
J: Crush Jiggy Rock
Repair Chuffy the Train
-Enter Grunty Industries (skip with clockwork eggs)
-J: Defeat Old King Coal

Witchyworld
Power Area51 Generator (UFO)
-J2: UFO Minigame
Power Dodgem Dome
-J: Dodgem Minigame
J: Power Star Spinner

Jolly Roger's Lagoon
Skip with additional air

Terrydactyland
Grow Wumbas Wigwam
-20 Notes in Rock (this or Bill Drill)
-Scare Caveman
--J2: Warm Cavemen
--J2: Hatch Terry's Eggs
Grow Styracosaurus
-J2: Reunite Styracosaurus Family

Grunty Industries
Power down Magnet
-J2: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic
-J2: Defeat Weldar
Power Down Crushers
-J2: Toxic Waste Shooting Gallery
-J2: Clinkers Cavern

Hailfire Peaks
Revive Alien
-J2: Rescue Alien Children
J: Revive Sabreman

Cloud Cuckooland
Cast Rainbow to Golden Pot (might be skipable with Glide+Flapping)
-J: Jiggy Gallery Shootinggame
Grow Beans
-J: Win Triathlon
-J: Cheese Jiggy

-----------------------------
Wumba

Mayaham Temple
J: Kickball Tournament
J: HP: Kickball Tournament

Glitter Gulch Mine
Access to Canary Cave
-J: Canary Race
--J: CC: Canary Race
Fuel Depot (UFO for Witchyworld)
-J: WW: UFO Minigame

Witchyworld
Access to "The Inferno"
-J: Top of the Inferno
-J2: Reunite Bear Family?
-Access to Mumbo
20 Notes

Jolly Roger's Lagoon
Skip Underwater Egg Aiming to open Temple door (Seaweed Sanctum) (unless necessary to aim as submarine)
Skip Underwater Egg Aiming for Boss
J: Underwater Sea Cavern

Terrydactyland
J: Roar Code
J2: Warm Cavemen
J2: Hatch Terry's Eggs

Grunty Industries
J: Wash the Clothes
J2: Defeat Weldar
J2: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic

Hailfire Peaks
Open Trainstation
-J: Ice Train Station
Activate Oil Pump
-J: GI: Waste Disposal Plant Oil Pipeline

Cloud Cuckooland
J: Shoot the Eyeflowers (can Airborne Egg Aiming be used for this instead?)
J: Beehive Minigame

Legend:
J: Jiggy
J2: Duplicate Jiggy that is already listed elsewhere. Likely because two moves are required independently to collect it.
M: New Move
? Marks Requirements that were used in the 100% run but which look fairly likely to be skipped somehow.
MT,GGM,WW,JRL,TL,GI,HP,CC,CK: Level abreviations
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are missing 9 Jinjo Jiggies as well as the final 5 moves which sum up to anywhere between 19 (max) 15 (likely figure) Jiggies inaccessible, leaving us room to skip between one or five more jiggies under the most likely note/jiggy conditions.

Wing Whack is not required anywhere. While it slightly enhances the distance Kazooie on her own can jump this doesn't seem to be either useful or necessary anywhere. It might be able to skip the glide move for rescuing the Alien children with it but it doesn't look as if that jiggy was required.
Sub-Aqua Egg Aiming is completely obsoleted by the Submarine transformation which can do all of its taks plus gets an additional jiggy.
Grenade Eggs are not required to get Kazooie Clockwork Eggs. Although it might seem impracticle they might be possible to skip grenade eggs and do all their tasks with the Clockwork eggs, depending on how they behave in the air/underwater (I don't know).

The most interesting thing to look into besides dropping requirements for Jiggies (especially those for the last 5 moves) is definitly lowering the total amount of jiggies necessary. Getting to the final battle without 70 Jiggies would be a major skip that gives some breathing space for route planning and dropping different moves/Transformations/Mumbo Plates.

I don't have the game yet but I'll grab a copy off ebay so I should be able to play on that in around a week. Last I heard the game doesn't emulate well at all, but if anybody knows an emulator/settings/rom combination that makes the game fully playable that could be very useful for testing tricks.

Thread title:

Okay, this idea just randomly popped in my mind some days ago. Recently having played through most of the game again I had some fun trying some weird sequence breaks and tricks and this lead to this idea. Firstly, we need to define low%. The Game's Status screen keeps track of: Jiggies, Notes, Jinjos, Glowbos, Honeycombs, Cheeto Pages and Moves. All Honeycombo, Cheeto Pages and Jinjos are obviously skipped because none of them are required (thus removing the total of theoretically accessible Jiggies to 81). Jiggies and Notes should be as low as required to beat the game, obviously. There are 70 Jiggies needed for the final door to the last fight and 505 Notes required for the last move you need to beat the game (Claw Clamber Boots), although neither of those are set in stone. Considering that the final door looks to be made up of lasers it might be possible to clip through somehow or find another trick to bypass it somehow. Cutting off another 15 Jiggies would most definitly allow some more interesting ideas for route planning. Claw Clamber Boots seem to be required both to access the second floor of Grunty Industries (which most likely cannot be skipped due to necessary Jiggies up there, but there very well might be a way to get up there without them) and finally to reach the Door to Cauldron Keep. The later appears to be fairly high in the air with no immediatly apperant way to climb up elsewhere, but I'm not dismissing this option just yet. If it were possible to get up there without the Claw Clamber Boots we could just barely skip them in a 70 jiggies run, too, and with one or two more discoveries for (currently impossible) jiggies we could drop Hatch, too. Taxi Pack is required for far too many jiggies to be skipable in a 70 Jiggies run (although it is skipable on its own in non-low%-settings), but if we were to find a way to also skip the final door it could be dropped as well. However, that's pure speculation and likely not going to happen. Reaching Cauldron Keep without the Claw Clamber Boots looks even more impossible than glitching through the 70 Jiggies Door.

Thus the final conclusion to be made is how to handle moves and glowbos. Glowbos are required to make use of Wumba and Mumbo whereas Moves enhance the abilities of the two protagonists. My say would be to treat both equally and trying to minimize the sum of moves learned and glowbos collected while going for least Jiggies/Notes. Any objections to that approach?

Here's a list of dependencies I have compiled while rewatching the 100% run hosted on SDA. I skipped Jinjos, Cheeto Pages and Honeycombs because they will not be collected at all anyway:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Egg Aim (essential)

Breegul Blaster (required)
J: MT: Targitzan's Temple(Slightly Sacred Chamber)
J: MT: Targitzan's Temple(Really Sacred Chamber)
J: TL: Inside Chompa's Belly
J: GI: Clinkers Cavern
CK: Required for Grunty Battle

Grip Grab (essential?)
J: MT: Prison Compound?
Access Plateau (essential)
20 Notes on Jinjo Roof?
WW: 10 Notes on Area51 Gate?
WW: Climb to Wumba?
WW: Reach moving Platform switch?
Activate Clifftop Railway Station
-J2: Reunite Styracosaurus Family
JRL: Climb Seaweed Sanctum?
M: TL: Taxi Pack? (This or Pack Whack)

Fire Eggs
Access Pine Grove (essential)
J2: TL: Oogle Boogle Cave: Warm Cavemen
J2: HP: Defeat Chilli Billi & Chilly Willi
J2: Warm Sabremen
J2: Jiggy Gallery Shootinggame

Bill Drill (essential?)
GGM: Access to Gloomy Caverns
-J: Power Hut Basement
GGM: Access to Generator Cave
-J: Top of Generator Room
GGM: Ordnance Storage Entrance
-M: Beak Bayonet
--J2: Ordnance Storage
Extra Air and fast swimming (Fish SM)
J2: WW: Test your Strength
J: JRL: Access Waste Disposal
MT: Reveal Mumbo Plate in Dinosaur Cave
-J2: Reunite Styracosaurus Family
MT: 20 Notes in Rock (this or large T-Rex)
J: MT: Drill in Terry's Nest
GI: Unscrew Platforms
-J2: Wash the clothes
-J2: Defeat Weldar
-J2: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic
-J2: Toxic Bottom
J2: TL: Feed Cavemen
J2: HP: Free Alien Children
CC: Get Beans
-Access Giant Cheese?
--J2: Cheese Jiggy
-Access Sackhopping Racetrack
--J2: Win Triathlon
J: GGM: Return Rat from MT Prison

Beak Bayonet
J: GGM: Ordnance Storage

Grenade Eggs
J: WW: Test your Strength? (Do Clockwork Kazooie Eggs work, too?)
J2: WW: Mr Patch
JRL: Open Split Pad? (appears to be unnecessary)
-3 Doublones (jump pad) (Appear to be not necessary)
-M: Wing Whack
JRL: Save Room Rent (2 doublones)
J: JRL: Inside the Big Fish (collect inside Jolly Roger's) (Likely skipable with submarine)
JRL: Blow up Wall in Mumbo's Skull
-J2: JRL: Hatch Egg.
WW: Free Gobi
-J2: HP: Ice Train Station
WW: Free Styracosaurus
-J2: TL: Reunite Styracosaurus Family
J2: CC: Jiggy Gallery Shootinggame
J2: HP: Kickball Tournament
J2: GI: Toxic Waste Shooting Gallery
J2: GI: Fight Weldar
J2: GI: Bottom of Toxic Waste

Pack Whack
Ultimate double jump (awesome)
M: TL: Taxi Pack? (This or Grip Grab)
CK: Skip Toxic (This or Sack Pack) (essential)
J: GI: Waste Compactor (This or Snooze Pack)

Split Up (essential)

Airborne Egg Aiming
J: WW: UFO Minigame(?)
J: WW: Balloon Burst Minigame
J: WW: Mr Patch

Ice Eggs
J: JRL: Power UFO
-J2: HP: Rescue Alien Children
J: HP: Defeat Chilli Billi & Chilly Willi
J2: Jiggy Gallery Shootinggame

Wing Whack

Sub-Aqua Egg Aiming (Appears to be obsoleted by Submarine)

Talon Torpedo
J: JRL: Inside Fish
J: JRL: Temple of the Fishes
Access Wasteland (essential)
JRL: Open UFO
-J2: JRL: Power UFO
J: TL: Water for the Dinosaur

Clockwork Kazooie Eggs
J: TL: Blow up Guards
J: JRL: Smugglers' Cavern?
J: CC: Open Safe
GI: Enter Building without Chuffy
J: GI: Blow up Guard Robots

Springy Step Shoes
TL: Reach top Area?
-Reveal Fly Plate by defeating Terry
Access Quagmire (essential)
J: GGM: Behind Waterfall

Taxi Pack
J: MT: Carry Terrydactylus Baby (requires Hatch)
MT: Carry Ill Styracosaurus
-J2: Reunite Styracosaurus Family
GI: Get Batteries
-Access Waste Disposal Plant
--M: Snooze Pack
-Access Electromagnetic Chamber
--J: Defeat Weldar
--J: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic
-J: Access Packing Room (Twinkle Packing Minigame)
-J: Toxic Waste Shooting Gallery
J: WW: Reunite Bear Family
J2: HP: Transport Sabreman
J2: CC: Win Triathlon
J2: CC: Cheese Jiggy

Hatch
J2: MT: Hatch Terry's Eggs (requires Taxi Pack for final baby)
J: JRL: Hatch Egg.
CC: Hatch Eggs for floating
-J2: Win Triathlon
J2: HP: Rescue Alien Children

Claw Clamber Boots
GI: Access second floor? (essential?)
-Access outdoor flypads
WW: Return to TL
-J: TL: Feed Cavemen
J2: HP: Defeat Chilli Billi & Chilly Willi
Access Cauldron Keep (essential)
J2: GI: Clinkers Cavern

Snooze Pack
TL: Cross Stomping Plains
-J: HP: Hidden Behind Ice Window

Leg Spring

Shack Pack
J: HP: Get Hot Fish and Feed Boggy
J2: GI: Waste Disposal Plant Oil Pipeline?
M: Sack Pack
J: CC: Jello Castle (Supposed to be skipable by Polygon clipping)
J2: CC: Cheese Jiggy
J2: GI: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic

Glide
J: HP: Rescue Alien Children

Sack Pack
J2: CC: Win Triathlon

-----------------------------
Mumbo:

Isle o' Hags
Heal Styracosaurus
-J: Reunite Styracosaurus Family

Mayaham Temple:
Open Large Doors
-J: Jade Snake Hole
-M: Grip Grab
Open up Fly Pad
-J: Flypad top of temple?

Glitter Gulch Mine
J: Crush Jiggy Rock
Repair Chuffy the Train
-Enter Grunty Industries (skip with clockwork eggs)
-J: Defeat Old King Coal

Witchyworld
Power Area51 Generator (UFO)
-J2: UFO Minigame
Power Dodgem Dome
-J: Dodgem Minigame
J: Power Star Spinner

Jolly Roger's Lagoon
Skip with additional air

Terrydactyland
Grow Wumbas Wigwam
-20 Notes in Rock (this or Bill Drill)
-Scare Caveman
--J2: Warm Cavemen
--J2: Hatch Terry's Eggs
Grow Styracosaurus
-J2: Reunite Styracosaurus Family

Grunty Industries
Power down Magnet
-J2: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic
-J2: Defeat Weldar
Power Down Crushers
-J2: Toxic Waste Shooting Gallery
-J2: Clinkers Cavern

Hailfire Peaks
Revive Alien
-J2: Rescue Alien Children
J: Revive Sabreman

Cloud Cuckooland
Cast Rainbow to Golden Pot (might be skipable with Glide+Flapping)
-J: Jiggy Gallery Shootinggame
Grow Beans
-J: Win Triathlon
-J: Cheese Jiggy

-----------------------------
Wumba

Mayaham Temple
J: Kickball Tournament
J: HP: Kickball Tournament

Glitter Gulch Mine
Access to Canary Cave
-J: Canary Race
--J: CC: Canary Race
Fuel Depot (UFO for Witchyworld)
-J: WW: UFO Minigame

Witchyworld
Access to "The Inferno"
-J: Top of the Inferno
-J2: Reunite Bear Family?
-Access to Mumbo
20 Notes

Jolly Roger's Lagoon
Skip Underwater Egg Aiming to open Temple door (Seaweed Sanctum) (unless necessary to aim as submarine)
Skip Underwater Egg Aiming for Boss
J: Underwater Sea Cavern

Terrydactyland
J: Roar Code
J2: Warm Cavemen
J2: Hatch Terry's Eggs

Grunty Industries
J: Wash the Clothes
J2: Defeat Weldar
J2: Waste Disposal Plant Ground of Toxic

Hailfire Peaks
Open Trainstation
-J: Ice Train Station
Activate Oil Pump
-J: GI: Waste Disposal Plant Oil Pipeline

Cloud Cuckooland
J: Shoot the Eyeflowers (can Airborne Egg Aiming be used for this instead?)
J: Beehive Minigame

Legend:
J: Jiggy
J2: Duplicate Jiggy that is already listed elsewhere. Likely because two moves are required independently to collect it.
M: New Move
? Marks Requirements that were used in the 100% run but which look fairly likely to be skipped somehow.
MT,GGM,WW,JRL,TL,GI,HP,CC,CK: Level abreviations
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are missing 9 Jinjo Jiggies as well as the final 5 moves which sum up to anywhere between 19 (max) 15 (likely figure) Jiggies inaccessible, leaving us room to skip between one or five more jiggies under the most likely note/jiggy conditions.

Wing Whack is not required anywhere. While it slightly enhances the distance Kazooie on her own can jump this doesn't seem to be either useful or necessary anywhere. It might be able to skip the glide move for rescuing the Alien children with it but it doesn't look as if that jiggy was required.
Sub-Aqua Egg Aiming is completely obsoleted by the Submarine transformation which can do all of its taks plus gets an additional jiggy.
Grenade Eggs are not required to get Kazooie Clockwork Eggs. Although it might seem impracticle they might be possible to skip grenade eggs and do all their tasks with the Clockwork eggs, depending on how they behave in the air/underwater (I don't know).

The most interesting thing to look into besides dropping requirements for Jiggies (especially those for the last 5 moves) is definitly lowering the total amount of jiggies necessary. Getting to the final battle without 70 Jiggies would be a major skip that gives some breathing space for route planning and dropping different moves/Transformations/Mumbo Plates.

I don't have the game yet but I'll grab a copy off ebay so I should be able to play on that in around a week. Last I heard the game doesn't emulate well at all, but if anybody knows an emulator/settings/rom combination that makes the game fully playable that could be very useful for testing tricks.

Essentia

Edit history:

Essentia: 2008-06-06 06:36:27 pm

2008-06-06 06:35:59 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

Interesting idea; I'd love to see more Banjo-Tooie runs. However, I thought that the current run using Cheato's cheats would be considered a low% run. Would a separate category for this kind of run be accepted?

One thing I noticed: I thought Wing Whack (hope I'm not confusing it with another move) was required for the trashcan jiggy in Cloud Cuckooland, although I could be wrong. Does anyone know for sure?

mike89

2008-06-06 09:30:49 pm

SEGA Junkie

Here's everything I can come up with:

Breegull Blaster is required for the Grunty battle, I tried skipping it in a cheat run attempt and it refused me entry to the battle. My guess is that Chompa's Belly would do something similar.

I'm almost certain you can't shoot the eyeflowers as Kazooie, but I could be wrong on that one.

Wing Whack is needed for the trashcan game, I think. It's been a while, and I don't think I've ever got that far in the game without that move.

I couldn't pick any other mistakes in your dependency tree, so well done. I can't work out why you're skipping the Jinjos though - any reason?

Essentia

2008-06-06 10:58:24 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

I wondered about Jinjos at first too, but I assume he's skipping them in order to minimize the total number of items you get (since Jinjos are kept track of separately in the menu).

LLCoolDave

Edit history:

LLCoolDave: 2008-06-07 03:55:15 am

2008-06-07 01:50:55 am

Precisely the reason Jinjos are skipped. Even completing the single Jinjo Family adds one object (the Jinjo) to the subscreen besides the Jiggy you receive. There are other moves or Mumbo/Wumba things that likely pay off more. Besides, aren't the jinjo colors randomized on each playthrough? What if the jinjo you intend to pick up ends up in a bad location?

mike89 just pointed out that GI has to be done last because there are some unskipable notes in CC. This shouldn't be much of a concern, though.

Wing Whack isn't needed for the trashcan game, you can use eggs instead. (Unless this was somehow related to being a dragon in the 100% run, which I doubt)

I'd absolutely love to skip the grenade eggs for the WTF factor. There are 3 things right now that look as if Clockwork Kazooie Eggs might not be able to obsolete Grenade eggs:
-Mr. Patch. 12 Patches with 10 Eggs. As you can hit multiple at once this is, at least in theory, still possible. However this fight absolutely requires airborne egg aiming, which I'd love to skip too (I have a suspicion that the minigame in the castle can be done without it if you are allowed to enter)
-Opening the big fish in JRL: I don't think clockwork kazooies like water all that much. I hope the fish can be blown open with the submarine, too, or we'd need sub-aqua egg aiming for this jinjo (ugh)
-The pot of Gold in CC. You have to light up one side with grenade eggs. I hope this can be done with clockwork explosions, too.

Grip Grab is another excellent (and bizzarre) candidate for skipping. It appears to be required for just 2 jiggies:
The Prison Compound Jiggy in MT as gotten in the 100% run, although I am almost entirely certain it can be gotten without, and for acitvating the Clifftop Railway station which is solely required for the Styracosaurus family Jiggy which is very likely to be skipped because it costs a Glowbo on its own and is unnecessarily long.
Grip Grab is skipped (unless I missed somewhere it is necessary, but we'll skip that too)

Edit: Looks like the save I had used had a Superbanjo code activated. Trying to recreate the trick under standard settings.

What is inside the cave that requires the t-rex to scare the caveman in TL again? I either totally missed it in the 100% run or it is not necessary for anything. Besides, this looks like something that can be glitched by somehow, which would cut out the TL Mumbo as well, making the Styracosaurus Jiggy a mandatory skip as it requires two glowbos on its own.

I think those are all the thoughts I had for now. If anybody is willing to try some potential skips or tricks that'd be great. Especially fooling around the final door would be incredible or testing some of the thoughts in this post.

Precisely the reason Jinjos are skipped. Even completing the single Jinjo Family adds one object (the Jinjo) to the subscreen besides the Jiggy you receive. There are other moves or Mumbo/Wumba things that likely pay off more. Besides, aren't the jinjo colors randomized on each playthrough? What if the jinjo you intend to pick up ends up in a bad location?

mike89 just pointed out that GI has to be done last because there are some unskipable notes in CC. This shouldn't be much of a concern, though.

Wing Whack isn't needed for the trashcan game, you can use eggs instead. (Unless this was somehow related to being a dragon in the 100% run, which I doubt)

I'd absolutely love to skip the grenade eggs for the WTF factor. There are 3 things right now that look as if Clockwork Kazooie Eggs might not be able to obsolete Grenade eggs:
-Mr. Patch. 12 Patches with 10 Eggs. As you can hit multiple at once this is, at least in theory, still possible. However this fight absolutely requires airborne egg aiming, which I'd love to skip too (I have a suspicion that the minigame in the castle can be done without it if you are allowed to enter)
-Opening the big fish in JRL: I don't think clockwork kazooies like water all that much. I hope the fish can be blown open with the submarine, too, or we'd need sub-aqua egg aiming for this jinjo (ugh)
-The pot of Gold in CC. You have to light up one side with grenade eggs. I hope this can be done with clockwork explosions, too.

Grip Grab is another excellent (and bizzarre) candidate for skipping. It appears to be required for just 2 jiggies:
The Prison Compound Jiggy in MT as gotten in the 100% run, although I am almost entirely certain it can be gotten without, and for acitvating the Clifftop Railway station which is solely required for the Styracosaurus family Jiggy which is very likely to be skipped because it costs a Glowbo on its own and is unnecessarily long.
[b]Grip Grab is skipped (unless I missed somewhere it is necessary, but we'll skip that too)[/b]

Edit: Looks like the save I had used had a Superbanjo code activated. Trying to recreate the trick under standard settings.

What is inside the cave that requires the t-rex to scare the caveman in TL again? I either totally missed it in the 100% run or it is not necessary for anything. Besides, this looks like something that can be glitched by somehow, which would cut out the TL Mumbo as well, making the Styracosaurus Jiggy a mandatory skip as it requires two glowbos on its own.

I think those are all the thoughts I had for now. If anybody is willing to try some potential skips or tricks that'd be great. Especially fooling around the final door would be incredible or testing some of the thoughts in this post.

Floydo

2008-06-07 04:40:12 am

I love SDA!

The cave contains one of the eggs that you are supposed to hatch for Terry, and one jiggy from feeding and warming the cavemen (Whatever tribe they were, I'm not sure).

Do the burgers and fries in witchyworld count, or does it not matter if you get them or not? Same goes for dubloons and other similar world specific items.

LLCoolDave

2008-06-07 05:03:36 am

I still suppose it might be possible to glitch in. Or rather, it would definitly be easier to do than to glitch through other doorways in the game.

I don't think Quest items should count for low% if that is their only use. Or we could even start counting the Eggs you pick up etc. I'm not the one to make the rules but I think you should be free to pick them up at will.

As for the Grip Grab Skip, here are my conclusions so far:

The basic trick consists of backflipping then Beak Busting ontop of the lowest semi-intact stair of the broken staircase to the plateau.
-If you don't have Grip Grab there seems to be some invisible wall pushing you away from the opper half of the broken staircase. Picking up Grip Grab on a new gamefile removed this invisible wall. It is yet unknown if there may be some other trigger to get rid of it.
-You can start a backflip from the solid ground next to the broken staircase, it's just kind of hard to get right to bounce off the staircase.
-Using the Superbanjo code (which is the only explaination I have for Banjo being twice as fast in this savegame I downloaded) you can dash backflip off the bottom rest of the staircase and beak bust onto it which is slightly easier, but requires entering the cheat.
-Still untested: Superbanjo cheat with invisible wall intact.
-Still untested Backflip from bottom stairs with wall removed.
-The flying enemy can not be lurred next to the wall to damage boost to the top.
-The Ground is slightly sloped, the platform above follows this slope. It may be possible to start a backflip at the highest point and beakbust onto the ledge at a point that is lower than the walls height at where you start the backflip. This has so far however been unsuccessful and is unlikely.

Any further ideas would be great.

And welcome to the SDA Forums Floydo.

I still suppose it might be possible to glitch in. Or rather, it would definitly be easier to do than to glitch through other doorways in the game.

I don't think Quest items should count for low% if that is their only use. Or we could even start counting the Eggs you pick up etc. I'm not the one to make the rules but I think you should be free to pick them up at will.

As for the Grip Grab Skip, here are my conclusions so far:

The basic trick consists of backflipping then Beak Busting ontop of the lowest semi-intact stair of the broken staircase to the plateau.
-If you don't have Grip Grab there seems to be some invisible wall pushing you away from the opper half of the broken staircase. Picking up Grip Grab on a new gamefile removed this invisible wall. It is yet unknown if there may be some other trigger to get rid of it.
-You can start a backflip from the solid ground next to the broken staircase, it's just kind of hard to get right to bounce off the staircase.
-Using the Superbanjo code (which is the only explaination I have for Banjo being twice as fast in this savegame I downloaded) you can dash backflip off the bottom rest of the staircase and beak bust onto it which is slightly easier, but requires entering the cheat.
-Still untested: Superbanjo cheat with invisible wall intact.
-Still untested Backflip from bottom stairs with wall removed.
-The flying enemy can not be lurred next to the wall to damage boost to the top.
-The Ground is slightly sloped, the platform above follows this slope. It may be possible to start a backflip at the highest point and beakbust onto the ledge at a point that is lower than the walls height at where you start the backflip. This has so far however been unsuccessful and is unlikely.

Any further ideas would be great.

And welcome to the SDA Forums Floydo.

Floogal

2008-06-07 02:24:07 pm

I can confirm that you need Breegul Blaster to get into Chompa's Belly -- instead of eating you, she mentions something about seeing Jamjars in Mayhem Temple. It's also mandatory for Grunty -- she also requires the Clockwork Kazooie eggs to fight her. "Fighting you would be no fun! Go back to Mayhem Temple/the Wasteland and finish your training!" Talk about shooting yourself in the foot....

Useless thing: you can learn Beak Bayonet without actually knowing Breegul Blaster.

You don't need eggs at all to beat Mr. Patch -- just use the Beak Bomb. Tip: hold B to extend the attack (at the cost of red feathers), and you can redirect with the control-stick mid-attack. But I think you must have both mid-air aiming & grenade eggs to be allowed into the boss room.

Weldar requirements to enter his room: Banjo & Kazooie must be together, and you must have Grenade Eggs. Even though you can actually use Fire Eggs to beat him.

You can actually warm Sabreman with dragon Kazooie's fire breath -- in fact, can't it handle all fire-egg requirements? Regardless, you need fire eggs to get around Isle O'Hags, so this point is moot.

For those rocks in Glitter Gulch Mine, you can use the Detonator transformation instead of Bill Drill.

I'm pretty sure that the missiles from the Submarine transformation are identical to Grenade Eggs. You can take the submarine onto land by the start -- you might be able to snipe the landmark hiding the split-up pads (the stairs prevent you from going right up to it).

In Cauldren Keep, Shack Pack is sufficient to get past the moat -- you don't need Sack Pack (when considering alternative to Pack Whack, which is faster than both methods).

You need airborn egg aiming for the balloon-burst game ("This game is too good for you!") & Mr. Patch, but I haven't tested whether you need it for the UFO game.

You forgot that you also need Hatch to rescue the alien kids (one of them needs warming up).

I seem to recall someone in another thread saying how to enter Grunty Industries without using Chuffy -- it involved Kazooie-solo feathery-flapping around the building to a high-up window. I can't remember exactly.

I can confirm that you need Breegul Blaster to get into Chompa's Belly -- instead of eating you, she mentions something about seeing Jamjars in Mayhem Temple.  It's also mandatory for Grunty -- she also requires the Clockwork Kazooie eggs to fight her.  "Fighting you would be no fun!  Go back to Mayhem Temple/the Wasteland and finish your training!"  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot....

Useless thing: you can learn Beak Bayonet without actually knowing Breegul Blaster.

You don't need eggs at all to beat Mr. Patch -- just use the Beak Bomb.  Tip: hold B to extend the attack (at the cost of red feathers), and you can redirect with the control-stick mid-attack.  But I think you must have both mid-air aiming & grenade eggs to be allowed into the boss room.

Weldar requirements to enter his room: Banjo & Kazooie must be together, and you must have Grenade Eggs.  Even though you can actually use Fire Eggs to beat him.

You can actually warm Sabreman with dragon Kazooie's fire breath -- in fact, can't it handle all fire-egg requirements?  Regardless, you need fire eggs to get around Isle O'Hags, so this point is moot.

For those rocks in Glitter Gulch Mine, you can use the Detonator transformation instead of Bill Drill.

I'm pretty sure that the missiles from the Submarine transformation are identical to Grenade Eggs.  You can take the submarine onto land by the start -- you might be able to snipe the landmark hiding the split-up pads (the stairs prevent you from going right up to it).

In Cauldren Keep, Shack Pack is sufficient to get past the moat -- you don't need Sack Pack (when considering alternative to Pack Whack, which is faster than both methods).

You need airborn egg aiming for the balloon-burst game ("This game is too good for you!") & Mr. Patch, but I haven't tested whether you need it for the UFO game.

You forgot that you also need Hatch to rescue the alien kids (one of them needs warming up).

I seem to recall someone in another thread saying how to enter Grunty Industries without using Chuffy -- it involved Kazooie-solo feathery-flapping around the building to a high-up window.  I can't remember exactly.

LLCoolDave

2008-06-07 03:08:00 pm

Quote:

I can confirm that you need Breegul Blaster to get into Chompa's Belly -- instead of eating you, she mentions something about seeing Jamjars in Mayhem Temple. It's also mandatory for Grunty -- she also requires the Clockwork Kazooie eggs to fight her. "Fighting you would be no fun! Go back to Mayhem Temple/the Wasteland and finish your training!" Talk about shooting yourself in the foot....

Clockwork Kazooie eggs are more versatile than grenade eggs anyway, so if we are going to skip either it's going to be grenades.

Quote:

Useless thing: you can learn Beak Bayonet without actually knowing Breegul Blaster.

You don't need eggs at all to beat Mr. Patch -- just use the Beak Bomb. Tip: hold B to extend the attack (at the cost of red feathers), and you can redirect with the control-stick mid-attack. But I think you must have both mid-air aiming & grenade eggs to be allowed into the boss room.

Well, if both are required to be allowed to enter skipping them during the fight is pointless. Too bad.

Quote:

Weldar requirements to enter his room: Banjo & Kazooie must be together, and you must have Grenade Eggs. Even though you can actually use Fire Eggs to beat him.

This isn't that bad, unless we find a way to grab the jiggy at the bottom of the toxic waste disposal plant without Shack Pack, it's only one jiggy lost but saving a lot of time as well.

Quote:

You can actually warm Sabreman with dragon Kazooie's fire breath -- in fact, can't it handle all fire-egg requirements? Regardless, you need fire eggs to get around Isle O'Hags, so this point is moot.

Besides the dragon transformation requires picking up both the ice key and the giant Glowbo, so it's a no go anyway.

Quote:

For those rocks in Glitter Gulch Mine, you can use the Detonator transformation instead of Bill Drill.

That's good to know but Bill Drill is essential for so many other Jiggies that we cannot afford to skip it unless we can actuall pull off a 28 Jiggy completion, but that requires some very serious and unlikely passing of the CK laser doors.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure that the missiles from the Submarine transformation are identical to Grenade Eggs. You can take the submarine onto land by the start -- you might be able to snipe the landmark hiding the split-up pads (the stairs prevent you from going right up to it).

I'm fairly certain clockwork kazooie explosions should be able to destroy that thing, too. Besides, I don't recall any need for splitting up in this level anyway.

Quote:

In Cauldren Keep, Shack Pack is sufficient to get past the moat -- you don't need Sack Pack (when considering alternative to Pack Whack, which is faster than both methods).

More importantly, Pack Whack requires less notes than Shack and Sack pack, so the later two are skipped for certain.

Quote:

You need airborn egg aiming for the balloon-burst game ("This game is too good for you!") & Mr. Patch, but I haven't tested whether you need it for the UFO game.

That's too bad, I wanted to win it without shooting the balloons, but it makes sense to not be allowed in.

Quote:

You forgot that you also need Hatch to rescue the alien kids (one of them needs warming up).

Fixed

Quote:

I seem to recall someone in another thread saying how to enter Grunty Industries without using Chuffy -- it involved Kazooie-solo feathery-flapping around the building to a high-up window. I can't remember exactly.

There is no split up pad on the outside of Grunty Industries.

Still havn't found a way to access The Plateau without Grip Grab. It is however fairly easy to get there without USING the move once you have it. Bah.

[quote]I can confirm that you need Breegul Blaster to get into Chompa's Belly -- instead of eating you, she mentions something about seeing Jamjars in Mayhem Temple.  It's also mandatory for Grunty -- she also requires the Clockwork Kazooie eggs to fight her.  "Fighting you would be no fun!  Go back to Mayhem Temple/the Wasteland and finish your training!"  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot....
[/quote] 
Clockwork Kazooie eggs are more versatile than grenade eggs anyway, so if we are going to skip either it's going to be grenades.

[quote] Useless thing: you can learn Beak Bayonet without actually knowing Breegul Blaster.

You don't need eggs at all to beat Mr. Patch -- just use the Beak Bomb.  Tip: hold B to extend the attack (at the cost of red feathers), and you can redirect with the control-stick mid-attack.  But I think you must have both mid-air aiming & grenade eggs to be allowed into the boss room. [/quote]

Well, if both are required to be allowed to enter skipping them during the fight is pointless. Too bad.

[quote] Weldar requirements to enter his room: Banjo & Kazooie must be together, and you must have Grenade Eggs.  Even though you can actually use Fire Eggs to beat him.[/quote]

This isn't that bad, unless we find a way to grab the jiggy at the bottom of the toxic waste disposal plant without Shack Pack, it's only one jiggy lost but saving a lot of time as well.

[quote] You can actually warm Sabreman with dragon Kazooie's fire breath -- in fact, can't it handle all fire-egg requirements?  Regardless, you need fire eggs to get around Isle O'Hags, so this point is moot.[/quote]

Besides the dragon transformation requires picking up both the ice key and the giant Glowbo, so it's a no go anyway.

[quote]For those rocks in Glitter Gulch Mine, you can use the Detonator transformation instead of Bill Drill.[/quote]

That's good to know but Bill Drill is essential for so many other Jiggies that we cannot afford to skip it unless we can actuall pull off a 28 Jiggy completion, but that requires some very serious and unlikely passing of the CK laser doors.

[quote] I'm pretty sure that the missiles from the Submarine transformation are identical to Grenade Eggs.  You can take the submarine onto land by the start -- you might be able to snipe the landmark hiding the split-up pads (the stairs prevent you from going right up to it).[/quote]

I'm fairly certain clockwork kazooie explosions should be able to destroy that thing, too. Besides, I don't recall any need for splitting up in this level anyway.

[quote]In Cauldren Keep, Shack Pack is sufficient to get past the moat -- you don't need Sack Pack (when considering alternative to Pack Whack, which is faster than both methods).[/quote]

More importantly, Pack Whack requires less notes than Shack and Sack pack, so the later two are skipped for certain.

[quote] You need airborn egg aiming for the balloon-burst game ("This game is too good for you!") & Mr. Patch, but I haven't tested whether you need it for the UFO game.[/quote]

That's too bad, I wanted to win it without shooting the balloons, but it makes sense to not be allowed in.

[quote]You forgot that you also need Hatch to rescue the alien kids (one of them needs warming up).[/quote]

Fixed

[quote]I seem to recall someone in another thread saying how to enter Grunty Industries without using Chuffy -- it involved Kazooie-solo feathery-flapping around the building to a high-up window.  I can't remember exactly.[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9VxAs6g9BI

There is no split up pad on the outside of Grunty Industries.

Still havn't found a way to access The Plateau without Grip Grab. It is however fairly easy to get there without USING the move once you have it. Bah.

PMIT

2008-06-13 01:34:45 pm

Having only played the game recently, I was thinking about this game too, but more as an any% thing (but besides moves/glowbos, jinjos, and thus more jiggies, are the only things I considered). I'll read the topic again more carefully, but I'll start off with a few things that should help.

I can say that you don't need the sleep pack at all in the game. For the stomping plains, jumping at a 90 degree angle with Banjo at the right time will avoid Stomponadon.

To avoid backtracking to JRL for the Smuggler's Cavern jiggy, you can use the running shoes to get enough speed off a jump to reach the platform. The timing is a bit tricky though, you need to time it so that they wear off mid-jump, since you can't Wing Whack or do the standard flap while wearing them. Fortunately, they're close to wearing off by the time you enter Smuggler's Cavern. Since the Cheato page is obviously not bought, there should be a dubloon to spare.

Also, unless the 2nd alien jiggy is required to have enough, I would skip Glide completely since it's obsoleted by all the other moves in the game. Would it be possible to reach that platform without Glide?

Having only played the game recently, I was thinking about this game too, but more as an any% thing (but besides moves/glowbos, jinjos, and thus more jiggies, are the only things I considered). I'll read the topic again more carefully, but I'll start off with a few things that should help.

I can say that you don't need the sleep pack at all in the game. For the stomping plains, jumping at a 90 degree angle with Banjo at the right time will avoid Stomponadon.

To avoid backtracking to JRL for the Smuggler's Cavern jiggy, you can use the running shoes to get enough speed off a jump to reach the platform. The timing is a bit tricky though, you need to time it so that they wear off mid-jump, since you can't Wing Whack or do the standard flap while wearing them. Fortunately, they're close to wearing off by the time you enter Smuggler's Cavern. Since the Cheato page is obviously not bought, there should be a dubloon to spare.

Also, unless the 2nd alien jiggy is required to have enough, I would skip Glide completely since it's obsoleted by all the other moves in the game. Would it be possible to reach that platform without Glide?

kowbrainz

Edit history:

kowbrainz: 2008-06-14 08:51:49 am

2008-06-14 07:29:55 am

Quote:

I seem to recall someone in another thread saying how to enter Grunty Industries without using Chuffy -- it involved Kazooie-solo feathery-flapping around the building to a high-up window. I can't remember exactly.

Yep, you can get inside without the train, but it has nothing to do with that. Edit: Nevermind, lol; didn't see the video linked to above. Tongue

On the subject of Glide... hrmm. It's very useful in Hailfire with Kazooie, but it depends on which jiggies you're skipping I guess. I'm pretty sure you can get to the alien that needs to be hatched on on the icey side without it if you featheryflap + wing whack out to it from the high snow platform (above the snowball switch that powers the drill). It definitely isn't needed for items; clockwork eggs can get pretty much everything provided you have them with you and you aren't shooting for stuff too far away. I'll have to have a longer think about this one...

Floogal

2008-06-14 07:44:01 pm

^ Don't forget that you can start off with a Leg Spring (if you have it) before Feathery Flapping & Wing Whacking (if you have it).

After thinking about it for a bit, I've come to the conclusion that a low% run is too similar to an any% to justify it having a separate category. Really, the only differences are the Jinjo collecting. Sure, you might need to restart the game quite a few times until the colour randomization works in your favour, but getting a few of the smaller families has got to be a lot faster than a bunch of the Jiggies.

Of course, I'm not a Mod or anything. Check with Radix/Mike/etc.

kowbrainz

2008-06-14 09:01:33 pm

The leg spring kind of takes away the momentum you'd get if you just used a regular running jump, so I usually just use it in tandem with glide instead. I'll go test both today either way.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about an any% run; on the subject of Jinjos though, I'm yet to have a file where the white Jinjo turns up in a place where it's hard to obtain (usually somewhere in Mayahem Temple and easy to pick up). On that note; are Jinjos set in stone once you start the game, or are they randomised for particular areas and will only be saved as a particular colour once you enter that area with a Jinjo? (dunno if this makes much sense, lol)
I mean, you could start a game, finish the first segment, then if the Jinjos had already been randomised for the game, copy the file and find out where you need to go for each... hrmm.

LLCoolDave

2008-06-15 12:48:26 am

Don't forget that we will have neither leg spring, nor glide nor wing whack. None of these are necessary for anything besides apparently rescuing the aliens. Banjo can climb to that platform from the top of the crane, maybe Kazooie can from that area, too.

In any case, yeah, I'm afraid a 70 Jiggies low% wouldn't be much different from an any% run, but are we even guaranteed to have to use them yet? None of us has looked into skipping the last barrier yet. Surely bringing down the jiggy count to 28 would help making a big difference between low% and any%.

Skipping the sleep bag for stomping planes by a simple 90° jump sounds nice, I'll try this on my next playthrough.

As for jinjorandomization: The number of possible combinations is, well, immense. I don't know precisely when the colors are set, but I expect that to be the case when creating a file. If that's true the only feasible way to work with jinjomanipulation is to read the savegame from the cartridge and analyze the jinjo locations with a program. Make a list of jinjolocations that you are willing to detour to to pick up a jinjo, then check if all of the short jinjo families are within the locations you are willing to visit and restart until they are. Manual checking is, well, totally utterly unreasonable. Even by reading the savegame this might take several DAYS of just restarting the game and saving right away.

Can any of you two think about a way to get either a bit more height or more distance out of a standard Backflip? I'm running out of ideas.

Don't forget that we will have neither leg spring, nor glide nor wing whack. None of these are necessary for anything besides apparently rescuing the aliens. Banjo can climb to that platform from the top of the crane, maybe Kazooie can from that area, too.

In any case, yeah, I'm afraid a 70 Jiggies low% wouldn't be much different from an any% run, but are we even guaranteed to have to use them yet? None of us has looked into skipping the last barrier yet. Surely bringing down the jiggy count to 28 would help making a big difference between low% and any%.

Skipping the sleep bag for stomping planes by a simple 90° jump sounds nice, I'll try this on my next playthrough.

As for jinjorandomization: The number of possible combinations is, well, immense. I don't know precisely when the colors are set, but I expect that to be the case when creating a file. If that's true the only feasible way to work with jinjomanipulation is to read the savegame from the cartridge and analyze the jinjo locations with a program. Make a list of jinjolocations that you are willing to detour to to pick up a jinjo, then check if all of the short jinjo families are within the locations you are willing to visit and restart until they are. Manual checking is, well, totally utterly unreasonable. Even by reading the savegame this might take several DAYS of just restarting the game and saving right away.

Can any of you two think about a way to get either a bit more height or more distance out of a standard Backflip? I'm running out of ideas.

kowbrainz

Edit history:

kowbrainz: 2008-06-15 08:28:43 am

2008-06-15 07:30:09 am

More height, no... although you can roll into a backflip; the backflip doesn't wait for you to be in the crouch animation, so you can roll then hold Z during the roll and press A just before the after lag of the roll. But it depends on where you're using it I suppose. If you're talking about the actual flip of the move... I don't think so. You can bash A at the end when you're fluttering down to get a feathery flap in, but that's about it.

I just completed a file on BT lol; so I'll have to go and create another file to test stuff in cauldron keep. It depends on what the laser grid is like, the width between each laser, and whether or not they've gone the extra mile and put in one of those invisible walls behind the thing just incase. I'm thinking you might be able to glitch your way in with a clockwork egg; perhaps use a grenade egg blast to push you through. Those are just theories, though; I'm pretty sure Rare would've tested that sort of stuff already. :/

Edit: Wing Whack and glide are not neccessary in the game, it seems. You can simply use claw clamber boots to get Kazooie up to the Chilly Willy battle entance then feathery flap down to the Alien. Dunno why I didn't think about this before.

More height, no... although you can roll into a backflip; the backflip doesn't wait for you to be in the crouch animation, so you can roll then hold Z during the roll and press A just before the after lag of the roll. But it depends on where you're using it I suppose. If you're talking about the actual flip of the move... I don't think so. You can bash A at the end when you're fluttering down to get a feathery flap in, but that's about it.

I just completed a file on BT lol; so I'll have to go and create another file to test stuff in cauldron keep. It depends on what the laser grid is like, the width between each laser, and whether or not they've gone the extra mile and put in one of those invisible walls behind the thing just incase. I'm thinking you might be able to glitch your way in with a clockwork egg; perhaps use a grenade egg blast to push you through. Those are just theories, though; I'm pretty sure Rare would've tested that sort of stuff already. :/

Edit: Wing Whack and glide are not neccessary in the game, it seems. You can simply use claw clamber boots to get Kazooie up to the Chilly Willy battle entance then feathery flap down to the Alien. Dunno why I didn't think about this before.

PMIT

2008-06-18 04:58:46 pm

Did some testing with the submarine, and turns out it can't blow up the thing with the split pads (but CK eggs work on it); it's needed to hatch Tiptup's egg. It also can't destroy the big fish's teeth, so that's a jiggy we're going to have to skip, unfortunately.

Here's what I think about Mumbo/Wumba.

Mayahem Temple: Mumbo is required for so many jiggies, at least six when you include access to Wumba iirc, that we can't really skip him. Also needed for Grip Grab, and I can't think of any ways past that initial problem. The Stony is only required for the kickball games, and although I want to skip those, I doubt it will happen, barring some low-jiggy completion breakthrough.

GGM: Mumbo is probably needed for too many Jiggies to be skipped because of activating the train. I really want to skip the Detonator, though. It's required for three jiggies, but only the Canary Mary race in GGM is close to being fast. The UFO ride is already one of, if not the longest optional minigame, and that's not including all the long cutscenes to even get there (Mumbo activating the ride, the ride from Wild West World to Space Zone, and the box arriving in Witchyworld). As for the Canary Mary CC race, a second race with no reward needs to be done to get her to even appear there, and they certainly aren't the fastest things in the game.

WW: The Van is needed for too many Jiggies to skip it, not even including that the kids could be in the Inferno. Mumbo is needed less, but should probably be gotten. Seeing how many Jiggies we can actually skip and still have 70 with the things we've already decided on should probably be the first priority...

JRL: Mumbo skipped, Wumba probably needed. I didn't check to see if the torpedos work on the statues for the coded door (the one with Chris P. Bacon). If that doesn't work, underwater egg aiming is preferable, because then it would be two exclusive jiggies opposed to the sub's one.

TL: This whole area depends on how many jiggies can be skipped. It's probably not worth getting Wumba without Mumbo, because baby T-Rex can only get one jiggy, while Mumbo can also only get one by himself, and that's a very long one (Styracosaurus kids) that might not be worth getting if we can avoid it. Together they can get up to 4 jiggies, which is probably going to be needed.

GI: Again, it depends on how many jiggies can be skipped. Since we can't get the stuff that comes with Weldar, that Mumbo pad is a waste, but there's still two from the other one. In fact, I'll stop here because it's just going to be the rest is just going to be the same as the rest...

On another note, I thought I was onto something that's probably one of the most known things in the game, but I'll say it anyway. I noticed that Pack Whack can pick up items that it hits, so I was testing it on the small gates throughout the game, even though that's mostly non-jiggy stuff. Turns out Rare decided to put all of those things one pixel out of range of it... I also noticed that the one window of the Jinjo houses that would let you skip talking to Jingaling has an invisible wall. The main reason I say that is because even that's a huge step up from DK64.

And about jinjo randomization, I'm hoping it's randomized when you enter a world for the first time, but that's probably wishful thinking. Then it would just be hoping that the Jinjos are the right colors upon entering worlds. Even that sounds ridiculously hard, but then again, it was mostly just thinking about it with no real planning. Wink

Did some testing with the submarine, and turns out it can't blow up the thing with the split pads (but CK eggs work on it); it's needed to hatch Tiptup's egg. It also can't destroy the big fish's teeth, so that's a jiggy we're going to have to skip, unfortunately.

Here's what I think about Mumbo/Wumba.

Mayahem Temple: Mumbo is required for so many jiggies, at least six when you include access to Wumba iirc, that we can't really skip him. Also needed for Grip Grab, and I can't think of any ways past that initial problem. The Stony is only required for the kickball games, and although I want to skip those, I doubt it will happen, barring some low-jiggy completion breakthrough.

GGM: Mumbo is probably needed for too many Jiggies to be skipped because of activating the train. I really want to skip the Detonator, though. It's required for three jiggies, but only the Canary Mary race in GGM is close to being fast. The UFO ride is already one of, if not the longest optional minigame, and that's not including all the long cutscenes to even get there (Mumbo activating the ride, the ride from Wild West World to Space Zone, and the box arriving in Witchyworld). As for the Canary Mary CC race, a second race with no reward needs to be done to get her to even appear there, and they certainly aren't the fastest things in the game.

WW: The Van is needed for too many Jiggies to skip it, not even including that the kids could be in the Inferno. Mumbo is needed less, but should probably be gotten. Seeing how many Jiggies we can actually skip and still have 70 with the things we've already decided on should probably be the first priority...

JRL: Mumbo skipped, Wumba probably needed. I didn't check to see if the torpedos work on the statues for the coded door (the one with Chris P. Bacon). If that doesn't work, underwater egg aiming is preferable, because then it would be two exclusive jiggies opposed to the sub's one.

TL: This whole area depends on how many jiggies can be skipped. It's probably not worth getting Wumba without Mumbo, because baby T-Rex can only get one jiggy, while Mumbo can also only get one by himself, and that's a very long one (Styracosaurus kids) that might not be worth getting if we can avoid it. Together they can get up to 4 jiggies, which is probably going to be needed.

GI: Again, it depends on how many jiggies can be skipped. Since we can't get the stuff that comes with Weldar, that Mumbo pad is a waste, but there's still two from the other one. In fact, I'll stop here because it's just going to be the rest is just going to be the same as the rest...

On another note, I thought I was onto something that's probably one of the most known things in the game, but I'll say it anyway. I noticed that Pack Whack can pick up items that it hits, so I was testing it on the small gates throughout the game, even though that's mostly non-jiggy stuff. Turns out Rare decided to put all of those things one pixel out of range of it... I also noticed that the one window of the Jinjo houses that would let you skip talking to Jingaling has an invisible wall. The main reason I say that is because even that's a huge step up from DK64.

And about jinjo randomization, I'm hoping it's randomized when you enter a world for the first time, but that's probably wishful thinking. Then it would just be hoping that the Jinjos are the right colors upon entering worlds. Even that sounds ridiculously hard, but then again, it was mostly just thinking about it with no real planning. ;)

Floogal

2008-06-20 02:28:50 pm

I took a quick look at the locations, and it seems that only about 7 or 8 Jinjos (out of 45) are really out of the way or need backtracking. With proper luck manipulation, that gives you 8 out of 9 Jiggies.

Probably the best way to check the colours: start off with a "dummy" segment that saves right after the opening cutscene. Then, copy the save, and proceed to Jiggywiggy's Temple, where you enter the cheat to open all worlds. Do a quick speed-note-&-move collection in order to scout out the worlds for the Jiggy colours. If it's all good, continue onto segment #2. Otherwise, redo the first dummy segment.

...ugh, that still sounds horrible. Maybe you should just collect all 45 Jinjos -- that gives a 20-Jiggy leeway. Or at the very least, luck-manipulate so that the first few families are helped. The White Jinjo is worth picking up no matter where it is.

superluigigalaxy

2008-06-20 06:50:59 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

So right now we're at...

70 Jiggies
505 Notes
0 Jinjos
0 Cheato Pages
0 Empty Honeycombs
?? Glowbos
?? Jamjar Moves
0 SNS Items

One more thing... If we get the White Jinjo, that'll be +1 Jinjo and +1 Jiggy. Since we're going for Low% here, we want to get a Jiggy that can be gotten alone, to be only +1 Jiggy.

kowbrainz

Edit history:

kowbrainz: 2008-06-20 11:13:03 pm

2008-06-20 09:49:58 pm

A few little things I've tried... but they're mainly universal (ie not just helpful for a low% run) or seemingly useless.

The star spinner jiggy can be picked up with the van, which is easy, but also Mumbo with a bit of practice; after you get it you can fall off the planet to death warp back to the skull. It's rather tricky, though; I'd suggest testing it out on an emulator with savestates first. I got it to work midway through a run the other day on my first try though, so perhaps practice will work for it.

Heh, I managed to get over Conga inside the big top by talon trot jumping onto his hat and over, but I reckon this is useless since I couldn't find a way to get through the tent door and start the Mr Patch battle. Might require some testing, I dunno.

There's also an easier (and faster) way to get the Jinjo from atop the kickball stadium and the jiggy atop the temple in Mayahem Temple, all to do with beak bomb manipulation, since you can hold the B button and control the beak bomb with the control stick. The Jinjo is a little tricky to do without crashing, but if you end the beak bomb just before the temple and about a metre above, Banjo will drop down at the end of the animation and land safely; sometimes even giving you a speed boost so that you pick up the jinjo and slide over to the next flight pad. You can see the trick being used in this video at about 1.45:

There may have been a few other things, but oh well, I forget. I'll post anything else when I remember it.

Edit: The clockwork kazooie egg glitch for Grunty Industries is for NTSC cartridges only, just so people know. I was playing around with it today and when I got it to work, all I got when I entered the factory was a weird view of the first floor with a worker walking around. No control over Banjo, no pausing, nothing.

A few little things I've tried... but they're mainly universal (ie not just helpful for a low% run) or seemingly useless.

The star spinner jiggy can be picked up with the van, which is easy, but also Mumbo with a bit of practice; after you get it you can fall off the planet to death warp back to the skull. It's rather tricky, though; I'd suggest testing it out on an emulator with savestates first. I got it to work midway through a run the other day on my first try though, so perhaps practice will work for it.

Heh, I managed to get over Conga inside the big top by talon trot jumping onto his hat and over, but I reckon this is useless since I couldn't find a way to get through the tent door and start the Mr Patch battle. Might require some testing, I dunno.

There's also an easier (and faster) way to get the Jinjo from atop the kickball stadium and the jiggy atop the temple in Mayahem Temple, all to do with beak bomb manipulation, since you can hold the B button and control the beak bomb with the control stick. The Jinjo is a little tricky to do without crashing, but if you end the beak bomb just before the temple and about a metre above, Banjo will drop down at the end of the animation and land safely; sometimes even giving you a speed boost so that you pick up the jinjo and slide over to the next flight pad. You can see the trick being used in this video at about 1.45: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1CkPpUQ54M

There may have been a few other things, but oh well, I forget. I'll post anything else when I remember it.

Edit: The clockwork kazooie egg glitch for Grunty Industries is for NTSC cartridges only, just so people know. I was playing around with it today and when I got it to work, all I got when I entered the factory was a weird view of the first floor with a worker walking around. No control over Banjo, no pausing, nothing.

kowbrainz

Edit history:

kowbrainz: 2008-06-21 09:06:41 am

2008-06-21 08:18:47 am

Bad news... agh.

Just got up to Grunty Industries on a new file; grabbed the claw clamber boots and went up to the Cauldron Keep entrance. No, you cannot glitch your way in as far as I know.

Basically, the entrance isn't just limited to the two electric bars; the entire thing is an invisible wall which will hurt you if you touch it. They even went as far as to make the gate surrounding the electric fence part of the wall, so it'll zap you if you try to find a gap between polygons or something.

Basically, I tried farting out a clockwork egg behind me so that I was forced into the wall during my hit stun. Banjo was flung into the electric fence, but could not go through it; he just remained against it and continued to get zapped until the hitstun of the clockwork egg explosion was over. I haven't tested this with the final battle door yet, but I'm assuming the same thing will happen...

Just a note: although it's very unlikely, I performed this with the PAL cartridge, and quite a few things have changed in the PAL game, so maybe (and this is a big maybe) if someone tries it with an NTSC version, it may yield a different result. Worth a shot I guess... :/

If there's anything else I should be testing for before I move onto the final battle door, just say so.

EDIT: Looks like the final door has been designed the same way... Sad

Bad news... agh.

Just got up to Grunty Industries on a new file; grabbed the claw clamber boots and went up to the Cauldron Keep entrance. No, you cannot glitch your way in as far as I know.

Basically, the entrance isn't just limited to the two electric bars; the entire thing is an invisible wall which will hurt you if you touch it. They even went as far as to make the gate surrounding the electric fence part of the wall, so it'll zap you if you try to find a gap between polygons or something.

Basically, I tried farting out a clockwork egg behind me so that I was forced into the wall during my hit stun. Banjo was flung into the electric fence, but could not go through it; he just remained against it and continued to get zapped until the hitstun of the clockwork egg explosion was over. I haven't tested this with the final battle door yet, but I'm assuming the same thing will happen...

Just a note: although it's very unlikely, I performed this with the PAL cartridge, and quite a few things have changed in the PAL game, so maybe (and this is a big maybe) if someone tries it with an NTSC version, it may yield a different result. Worth a shot I guess... :/

If there's anything else I should be testing for before I move onto the final battle door, just say so.

EDIT: Looks like the final door has been designed the same way... :(

Floogal

2008-06-21 03:57:31 pm

Quote from superluigigalaxy:

One more thing... If we get the White Jinjo, that'll be +1 Jinjo and +1 Jiggy. Since we're going for Low% here, we want to get a Jiggy that can be gotten alone, to be only +1 Jiggy.

The point I made a post or two ago is that a low% really isn't worthwhile, as the Jinjo collection is the only difference. We should be more concerned with any% instead.

The whole "Jinjo counts for in-game%" is kind of arbitrary, anyways. It's really no different than the other things you need to collect to earn a Jiggy, such as Targitzan's Priceless Relic Thingy, Terry's kids, or Boggy's kids. Yeah, yeah, they are counted on the screen tallies, but the Jinjos themselves really don't do anything to help you.

Anyways, good research, kowbrainz. I'm kind of glad that the doors are sequence-break-proof -- we've already got a run that skips major things on the site.

LLCoolDave

2008-06-21 04:03:58 pm

I wish those doors could be broken, that would allow for some really nice strategy planning for both low% and any%. As things stand now I don't think a 70 Jiggies low% is really particularly interesting or special.

DreaGhost

2008-06-22 09:37:10 pm

Canadian Connection

If your still looking for a rom for BT that doesn't crap out or just plain freeze up. I'd say do what I did and just find a torrent of Banjo Tooie, don't just go with the simple read only files that are floating around out there, they generally don't work! Like the Romhustler version of BT is still buggy (if they ever fixed it at all!) As for the emulater just use the latest version of Project 64 (version 1.6) from their host site. They have version 1.7 but I think it's still in the beta stages so I wouldn't suggest it!

hope that helps.

kowbrainz

2008-06-23 06:21:17 am

Quote from DreaGhost:

If your still looking for a rom for BT that doesn't crap out or just plain freeze up. I'd say do what I did and just find a torrent of Banjo Tooie, don't just go with the simple read only files that are floating around out there, they generally don't work! Like the Romhustler version of BT is still buggy (if they ever fixed it at all!) As for the emulater just use the latest version of Project 64 (version 1.6) from their host site. They have version 1.7 but I think it's still in the beta stages so I wouldn't suggest it!

hope that helps.

Regardless of whether you have a good computer and the latest free version of PJ64 when using the Tooie roms, you'll still get slowdown, freezing and glitchiness here and there. A legit NTSC copy of the game is still ideal (since it can perform glitches and tricks that the PAL version can't in some cases).

I used a BT rom with PJ64 to take screenshots for a guide at spiralmountain.co.uk, and I'd still get a freeze at least once during each playing session...

[quote="DreaGhost"]
If your still looking for a rom for BT that doesn't crap out or just plain freeze up. I'd say do what I did and just find a torrent of Banjo Tooie, don't just go with the simple read only files that are floating around out there, they generally don't work! Like the Romhustler version of BT is still buggy (if they ever fixed it at all!) As for the emulater just use the latest version of Project 64 (version 1.6) from their host site. They have version 1.7 but I think it's still in the beta stages so I wouldn't suggest it!

hope that helps.
[/quote]

Regardless of whether you have a good computer and the latest free version of PJ64 when using the Tooie roms, you'll still get slowdown, freezing and glitchiness here and there. A legit NTSC copy of the game is still ideal (since it can perform glitches and tricks that the PAL version can't in some cases).

I used a BT rom with PJ64 to take screenshots for a guide at spiralmountain.co.uk, and I'd still get a freeze at least once during each playing session...

kowbrainz

2008-06-27 08:51:02 am

I can't remember what the old 100% run used (it may have used this very trick, even; lol) but you can grab Ssslumber's jiggy without tiptoe'ing or using clockwork eggs. Using a talon trot jump (with small run up) from the edge of the square before the mesh stuff Ssslumber sleeps on, then proceeding with a rat-a-tat rap will grab the jiggy.

Anyway... if there isn't anyone really motivated to go ahead with the planning for this type of run anymore, is there anything else we could turn the run into? Tooie's a great game and I'd love to see another run up on the site, if not, an improved one. An 100% one would be wonderful, but I don't know who'd be willing to go for that. I would but my cartridge is the PAL version so it can't perform some tricks like the GI entrance glitch. :/