Banjo-Kazooie 100% (PAL)

2008-09-25 03:03:35 am

Woo! XBLA arcade version of this game was leaked on Youtube today. Looks pretty much the same, but the new leaderboards function is very appealing. Wondering whether they'll have fixed up the glitches from the original or not...

The camera's now controlled with one of the control sticks, which may be a blessing to some people, but after playing BK so much with the left and right C buttons it puts me off a bit, hehe. Ah well.

In either case, it's enough to coax me into doing another test run of this game with some new routes to see what's possible. I've got a two week holiday coming up, so we'll see I suppose.

shadoweagle89

2008-09-25 01:49:14 pm

Quote from kowbrainz:

Woo! XBLA arcade version of this game was leaked on Youtube today. Looks pretty much the same, but the new leaderboards function is very appealing. Wondering whether they'll have fixed up the glitches from the original or not...

Got a link? I wouldn't mind checking it out. I think I've got a decent time on the original... something around 3+ hours.

Phil Hughes

2008-10-16 02:20:38 pm

Hey,

How much time do people think can be saved with the TT on MM playing as Banjo-Kazooie and not the termite? My personal record for the 100% on that stage is 5:23 and I could see it going to 5:15 with my strategy for that stage with perfect execution. The best I ever heard of for the stage was 4:54 and I figured that was a lie way back in 1999 but it could be possible perhaps now with the new find? I love this game but its just one of those things I would love to perfect in life but never will! I used to play loads of games back in the day (1997 - 2002) but I got interested in my pool and I work FT and don't have time to be competing anymore! I wish you all well though and I can probably contribute my route for MM if people are interested!

Cheers,

Phil

Phil Hughes

2008-10-19 01:32:08 pm

Hey,

I just wanted to ask what peoples opinions are on TAS runs in general. I was watching a B-K TAS on YouTube today and I really don't agree with it all. Obviously a lot of the stuff is probably not even possible on a genuine speed run through the N64. I think people need to grow a set and start playing these games as they were meant to be. Its just my opinion before people start calling me!

Wink

Ver Greeneyes

2008-10-19 05:15:10 pm

While N64 emulation is far from perfect, in theory if a machine was able to input the commands to an N64 directly, the tricks should work. There's no cheating going on, just superhuman perfection. There's no bragging rights for skill (although TASing in itself is also a skill, it's very different from normal speedrunning), and where-ever possible a lot of value is attached to entertainment (i.e. fooling around in autoscrollers or using good camera angles). That said, a good TAS can often be seen as something for a normal speedrun to aspire to - the closer it gets, the more godlike the player Smiley

Edit: that's not to say a normal speedrun can't be faster than a TAS - emulation problems aside (consider the pause wait problem in ocarina of time), new glitches are often found in both camps.

kowbrainz

2008-10-20 02:03:43 am

Quote from Phil Hughes:

Hey,

How much time do people think can be saved with the TT on MM playing as Banjo-Kazooie and not the termite? My personal record for the 100% on that stage is 5:23 and I could see it going to 5:15 with my strategy for that stage with perfect execution. The best I ever heard of for the stage was 4:54 and I figured that was a lie way back in 1999 but it could be possible perhaps now with the new find? I love this game but its just one of those things I would love to perfect in life but never will! I used to play loads of games back in the day (1997 - 2002) but I got interested in my pool and I work FT and don't have time to be competing anymore! I wish you all well though and I can probably contribute my route for MM if people are interested!

Cheers,

Phil

Your 100% includes pausing as soon as you touch the last item required, right (and perhaps not hitting the witch switch)? If that's the case, I doubt it will be much faster. The only real reasons a no-termite run is better is when it's done in a full game run, as you'll be able to talon trot to the level exit of Mumbo's Mountain much faster as well as having 5 easy Mumbo Tokens to use for later.

Oh, and a lot of the stuff done in the TAS is possible, it's just some of the frame-perfect stuff that isn't. The entire Mumbo's Mountain route is possible to do on a console, and a lot of the flying manoevers from TTC are possible to pull off fairly consistantly, too, for example.

I'd definitely go ahead and try a run of the game using a few of the tricks in the TAS if I had the right recording equipment for the job, but if there's anyone else who is up to try it then I'd be willing to help out. The problem isn't really people needing to 'grow a set' per se, it's just there's a tonne of practice that you need to go through in order to pull off all these tricks consistantly. I picked up the controller again on the weekend and realised that in just over a month I've become rather rusty and can't pull off nearly as much as I could before.

[quote="Phil Hughes"]
Hey,

How much time do people think can be saved with the TT on MM playing as Banjo-Kazooie and not the termite? My personal record for the 100% on that stage is 5:23 and I could see it going to 5:15 with my strategy for that stage with perfect execution. The best I ever heard of for the stage was 4:54 and I figured that was a lie way back in 1999 but it could be possible perhaps now with the new find? I love this game but its just one of those things I would love to perfect in life but never will! I used to play loads of games back in the day (1997 - 2002) but I got interested in my pool and I work FT and don't have time to be competing anymore! I wish you all well though and I can probably contribute my route for MM if people are interested!

Cheers,

Phil
[/quote]

Your 100% includes pausing as soon as you touch the last item required, right (and perhaps not hitting the witch switch)? If that's the case, I doubt it will be much faster. The only real reasons a no-termite run is better is when it's done in a full game run, as you'll be able to talon trot to the level exit of Mumbo's Mountain much faster as well as having 5 easy Mumbo Tokens to use for later.

Oh, and a lot of the stuff done in the TAS is possible, it's just some of the frame-perfect stuff that isn't. The entire Mumbo's Mountain route is possible to do on a console, and a lot of the flying manoevers from TTC are possible to pull off fairly consistantly, too, for example.

I'd definitely go ahead and try a run of the game using a few of the tricks in the TAS if I had the right recording equipment for the job, but if there's anyone else who is up to try it then I'd be willing to help out. The problem isn't really people needing to 'grow a set' per se, it's just there's a tonne of practice that you need to go through in order to pull off all these tricks consistantly. I picked up the controller again on the weekend and realised that in just over a month I've become rather rusty and can't pull off nearly as much as I could before.

Phil Hughes

2008-10-20 10:35:45 am

Hey,

I looked back and some of the stuff I said was a little bit harsh about TAS. The videos of B-K using it are entertaining, I guess I was just pissed that some of my favourite records have been destroyed with TAS. The one that angered was BS, I have 13:38 on the N64 and I timed the TAS and it came out as 12:39! There was some nice tricks in there though, things I never thought about!

Tongue

Gibbatizer

2008-10-29 11:22:06 am

Hey guys. My best for Mumbo's is 6.04, but im yet to pull off a run im really happy with using the termite skip.

Quote:

I picked up the controller again on the weekend and realised that in just over a month I've become rather rusty and can't pull off nearly as much as I could before.

Ive started playing again, he last few days. The first try I couldnt even do spiral mountain I was so bad. But if you pla the game fr about an hour and do a bit of speedrunning and just a bit of running around as I did tonight, you get nice and warmed up and it gets pretty much as easy as always. I think this is a key aspect of speedrunning people shouldnt underestimate.

Anyway I went on to play satisfactory. Still aiming for end of the year to have a run ready.

DRybes

2008-10-29 12:47:59 pm

O Zlda?

Quote from Phil Hughes:

Hey,

I just wanted to ask what peoples opinions are on TAS runs in general. I was watching a B-K TAS on YouTube today and I really don't agree with it all. Obviously a lot of the stuff is probably not even possible on a genuine speed run through the N64. I think people need to grow a set and start playing these games as they were meant to be. Its just my opinion before people start calling me!

Wink

Yep, the point of a TAS is to demonstrate the maximum possible, if human reflexes weren't a limitation. They're just as hard to make as a regular speedrun but for a different reason (thousands of rewinds and trial and error testing). They end up being quite a good guide for console speedruns in addition to inspiring people to attempt and discover they can perform high-precision tricks.

---

I missed a lot of the conversation in this thread but I just want to say I'm really looking forward to seeing this run and the collaberation between you guys is excellent and very constructive. I do hope you don't settle for anything less than a DVD recorder for this one, not only to make sure it's accepted but because this is one run I'd want to watch in high quality (and that was the only thing about marshmallow's run that disappointed me).

[quote="Phil Hughes"]
Hey,

I just wanted to ask what peoples opinions are on TAS runs in general. I was watching a B-K TAS on YouTube today and I really don't agree with it all. Obviously a lot of the stuff is probably not even possible on a genuine speed run through the N64. I think people need to grow a set and start playing these games as they were meant to be. Its just my opinion before people start calling me!

;)
[/quote]
Yep, the point of a TAS is to demonstrate the maximum possible, if human reflexes weren't a limitation. They're just as hard to make as a regular speedrun but for a different reason (thousands of rewinds and trial and error testing). They end up being quite a good guide for console speedruns in addition to inspiring people to attempt and discover they can perform high-precision tricks.

---

I missed a lot of the conversation in this thread but I just want to say I'm really looking forward to seeing this run and the collaberation between you guys is excellent and very constructive. I do hope you don't settle for anything less than a DVD recorder for this one, not only to make sure it's accepted but because this is one run I'd want to watch in high quality (and that was the only thing about marshmallow's run that disappointed me).

Gibbatizer

2008-11-19 08:30:31 am

Hey,
Well before this topic dissapears I thought I should make an update. I have given the run a few unsuccessful attempts, but I'm still not in peak form yet. I managed in one of them to get through Mumbo's mountain somewhat cleanly with a 6.06 or something, but treasure trove i accidently took kowbrainz route and I don't even know it. Anyway... Mumbo's Mountain is a death trap. Treasure trove is relatively safe but with my new route there is 1 leap of faith (literally) which can end the run very easily. Then Clanker's is always a death trap. If I can get past them nicely the rest of the run is pretty easy upto Click Clock where anything can happen with camera angles etc.

Still aiming for end of the year!

kowbrainz

2008-11-24 06:46:12 am

I've been playing the XBLA version... it's annoying, because on one hand the control is quite a lot better in some cases, but on the other you can't skip text. I haven't tested all the tricks etc yet but I know that a few of them work already (talon trot cancel, roll flip) although you cant gain speed by using the Croc's bite over and over.

I'd still like to see a run on the original done soon. I think the thing that put me off before is that yes, there are so many tricks that need to be pulled off well in the first few levels than runs get killed quite easily until you get passed Vile. If I got a good run passed there I'd keep going no matter what really, haha.

Hoping no BK XBLA gits start coming in here and yapping on about people breaking the world records etc. A guy got 2.48 on the XBLA version of the game (leaderboards), but only because the game's time stops when you get your final jiggy. Plus you dont need honeycombs at all if you dont want. Since I dont have any means of recording stuff I'll go after his record now rather than this one. Tongue

Good luck if you decide to keep going! Cheesy

I've been playing the XBLA version... it's annoying, because on one hand the control is quite a lot better in some cases, but on the other you can't skip text. I haven't tested all the tricks etc yet but I know that a few of them work already (talon trot cancel, roll flip) although you cant gain speed by using the Croc's bite over and over.

I'd still like to see a run on the original done soon. I think the thing that put me off before is that yes, there are so many tricks that need to be pulled off well in the first few levels than runs get killed quite easily until you get passed Vile. If I got a good run passed there I'd keep going no matter what really, haha.

Hoping no BK XBLA gits start coming in here and yapping on about people breaking the world records etc. A guy got 2.48 on the XBLA version of the game (leaderboards), but only because the game's time stops when you get your final jiggy. Plus you dont need honeycombs at all if you dont want. Since I dont have any means of recording stuff I'll go after his record now rather than this one. :P

Good luck if you decide to keep going! :D

Gibbatizer

2008-11-30 08:55:40 am

Quote:

I think the thing that put me off before is that yes, there are so many tricks that need to be pulled off well in the first few levels than runs get killed quite easily until you get passed Vile. If I got a good run passed there I'd keep going no matter what really, haha.

Haha, Kudo's! What's this whole XBLA thing? I have no idea what you're talking about.

I have hit a problem with recording and that is when recording to my dvd recorder the game lags and it is very much impossible to do the run on. I can record to video then write onto a dvd disc, will his still be an acceptable method? Perhaps there is a way to stop it from lagging but i'm not an expert on the subject. Any suggestions anyone?

DRybes

Edit history:

DRybes: 2008-11-30 09:49:50 am

2008-11-30 09:40:53 am

O Zlda?

Yep you need some kind of splitter cable. I suck at PAL so all I can suggest is that they make splitters for the yellow composite video, and its also possible to get a cable for your N64 that has both an s-video and a composite video on it... in which case you hook one up to the TV, and the other, along with the sound, to the recorder, and play the game (you won't hear sound, but the picture will be in sync).

Edit: yep, sorry nate... the KB is like second nature, I don't think to link it. As you said, all on http://speeddemosarchive.com/kb/index.php/DVD#Reducing_Lag

nate

2008-11-30 09:44:04 am

http://speeddemosarchive.com/kb/index.php/DVD#Reducing_Lag

please link to the relevant kb page when explaining a concept.

Gibbatizer

2008-12-01 07:32:03 am

Ok i'm pretty sure i'm following. I'll probably use the S-Video / composite cable. For example would this work

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NINTENDO-COMPATABLE-A-V-CABLE-FOR-SNES-N64-WITH-S-VIDEO_W0QQitemZ120341887433QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Video_Game_Accessories?hash=item120341887433&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

kowbrainz

2008-12-02 07:56:02 am

XBLA is the Xbox Live Arcade btw; Banjo was re-released as an anniversary treat with slightly updated graphics.

Hopefully you find a decent recording method shortly... I'm itching to see a new run up on this site for BK.

DRybes

2008-12-02 08:09:30 am

O Zlda?

Quote from Gibbatizer:

Ok i'm pretty sure i'm following. I'll probably use the S-Video / composite cable. For example would this work

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NINTENDO-COMPATABLE-A-V-CABLE-FOR-SNES-N64-WITH-S-VIDEO_W0QQitemZ120341887433QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Video_Game_Accessories?hash=item120341887433&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Yes, that is the described cable. Local stores often carry the part as well.

slowbro

Edit history:

slowbro: 2008-12-07 02:05:42 am

2008-12-07 01:39:01 am

The Live Arcade version's record is certainly not a 100% run time for the reasons mentioned, but I did notice something interesting. The leaderboard record holder is Coolboyman, to whom Marshmallow gives thanks in his comments.

edit: Woops, I should check these things before I post; Mike McKenzie thanked Coolboyman in his Banjo-Tooie Cheato run comments; Marshmallow didn't mention him. Now where's that delete button Roll Eyes

...

kowbrainz

2008-12-07 03:17:31 am

Yeah, CBM's just been using Marsh's routes for the most part in the past with his runs anyway, so it'd be pretty interesting to see Marsh thank him of all people, haha.

I can't really be fucked going after the XBLA times, at least not the full game one. I've beaten CBM's records on a few levels in the past few weeks but it seems like he plays the game so much that he'll have another run up for the level I beat him in within a few days of me getting it. There's no way I'd have the patience to try to keep all my records like that. Tongue

Cyberwrath

2008-12-07 11:56:56 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Hehe, marsh thanked ME in his comments! Wink

Ahh the memories.

Man it's been so long since then, and I'm still really itching for a new 100% run to watch. Good luck to all you guys route planning and recording, and I'm really looking forward to the final product.

Personally, if there was no Vile or Grunty's Furnace Fun, I could probably compete too! Although I'm washed up anyway...

I hope the TAS finishes up sometime soon, just so it'll be easier to get the best stats for RBB and CCW. Good luck guys!

Gibbatizer

2008-12-14 10:29:55 am

Well ive officially started my training in preparation for the recording whenever it may be, not going too badly so far, lots of room to improve but i'm feeling good. I realised I won't be able to use the cable that enables me to record and still pla without lag however without sound as I will need to hear the sounds of worlds in furnace fun. So i'll have to find another method. Sorta suits me better anyway, i'm sure there'd be plenty of small things which sound comes in handy for.

Anyway, someone please help me, does anyone know a good and super reliable method to kill the green monsters in Freezeezy peak who eat the twinklies, so that they don't eat any, or only 1 or 2.

kowbrainz

2008-12-15 07:15:54 am

Yeah - use rat-a-tat rap and not the beak buster (jump then B, not jump then Z). Wait for the first one and let it eat the first twinkly, then when the other two pop out hit the first one, then go in order (1st, 2nd, 3rd; 1st, 2nd, 3rd).

I'm willing to help out with routes - I've been playing a tonne on the Xbox version and recently took first spot on the leaderboards, but the routes for it are a lot different so I'll only be able to help with tricks to incorporate, maybe organising someone to upload the TAS vids for you so you can get some inspiration. The Freezeezy Peak one is said to be ready really soon.

I'm going to check through for your MMM route now as it seems rather good and I like stealing things like that, but ask me if you need anything. It might also be a good idea for you to get a cheat sheet for your runs - something which has the matching game tiles and motzand's organ key order, as well as space for you to write down the turtle choir order and grunty facts if necessary.

Yeah - use rat-a-tat rap and not the beak buster (jump then B, not jump then Z). Wait for the first one and let it eat the first twinkly, then when the other two pop out hit the first one, then go in order (1st, 2nd, 3rd; 1st, 2nd, 3rd).

I'm willing to help out with routes - I've been playing a tonne on the Xbox version and recently took first spot on the leaderboards, but the routes for it are a lot different so I'll only be able to help with tricks to incorporate, maybe organising someone to upload the TAS vids for you so you can get some inspiration. The Freezeezy Peak one is said to be ready really soon.

I'm going to check through for your MMM route now as it seems rather good and I like stealing things like that, but ask me if you need anything. It might also be a good idea for you to get a cheat sheet for your runs - something which has the matching game tiles and motzand's organ key order, as well as space for you to write down the turtle choir order and grunty facts if necessary.

Gibbatizer

2008-12-17 06:49:10 am

Yeh Good call. I have a cheat sheet for the tile matching. What was the conclusion with motzand? I remember you were deciphering some sort of pattern to it, but i never found out if you worked it out and it was realiable and if you could skip ahead.

As for The Green guys, that was pretty much the method I used, may be im just attacking the first one at the wrong time though, ill have a muck around. Im pretty happy with my routes. The only ones which are iffy are Click Clock Wood, Clanker's and to a lesser extent Treasure Trove. either way, I still have to do a bit of minor experiementation. But I don't think it's gunna make much difference. I'd probably make up the difference doing a route im comfortable with, as i'd know exactly where I was going and could go faster...

DRybes

2008-12-17 05:09:35 pm

O Zlda?

Motzhand's keys were shown earlier in this thread. You do have to wait for him to press them before you do.

kowbrainz

2008-12-17 05:37:13 pm

^ No you don't. You only have to wait for the speech he has preceding each section. After he's spoken, you'll be able to hit each of the notes in the order and they'll turn green to show that you've hit them.

So you'd basically talon trot up to the music sheet to activate the speech, then as soon as you're done there and speech is cancelled you begin with Part 1. Motzand will then talk some more - once this second speech is over you do Part 2.

I'd say you're right about doing your own routes though, just make sure you're getting within roughly 30 seconds of the ideal time with them. By ideal, I mean the route that uses all sorts of tricks which are easy to screw up and might be hard within a full run. Clanker's time depends on how fast you do the anvil+key segment, really. Treasure Trove Cove... hmm, I guess I'd like to know your route and times for this level before you go off and do it, although I know you'll get better than me since I always insist on doing crazy stuff Sami uses in the TAS and mess up at least one thing. If your time is under 9.30 then I think it'll be fine.

Click Clock Wood... yeah, I like using a slightly editted version of Marsh's route here, but I guess the only differences depend on which catterpillars and mumbo tokens you're able to go for. You have to make sure you've planned out the rest of the run first in terms of the Mumbo Tokens so you know which ones to get.

^ No you don't. You only have to wait for the speech he has preceding each section. After he's spoken, you'll be able to hit each of the notes in the order and they'll turn green to show that you've hit them.

[img]http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t297/kowbrainz/motzand.jpg[/img]

So you'd basically talon trot up to the music sheet to activate the speech, then as soon as you're done there and speech is cancelled you begin with Part 1. Motzand will then talk some more - once this second speech is over you do Part 2.

I'd say you're right about doing your own routes though, just make sure you're getting within roughly 30 seconds of the ideal time with them. By ideal, I mean the route that uses all sorts of tricks which are easy to screw up and might be hard within a full run. Clanker's time depends on how fast you do the anvil+key segment, really. Treasure Trove Cove... hmm, I guess I'd like to know your route and times for this level before you go off and do it, although I know you'll get better than me since I always insist on doing crazy stuff Sami uses in the TAS and mess up at least one thing. If your time is under 9.30 then I think it'll be fine.

Click Clock Wood... yeah, I like using a slightly editted version of Marsh's route here, but I guess the only differences depend on which catterpillars and mumbo tokens you're able to go for. You have to make sure you've planned out the rest of the run first in terms of the Mumbo Tokens so you know which ones to get.