Arbitrary run categories

2013-03-06 12:13:38 am

I'd like to have a discussion on run categories due to the recent actions of Twin Galaxies and some other streamers. According to some greedy attention-seeking individuals, a new category for a game can be created on a whim in order to attain a world record for the sake of having a world record in something.

This guy, prodigyx, has created a new category for tomb raider - not skipping cut scenes. He also has some other limitations (glitchless) but isn't this a bit extreme? No one runs any game, as far as I know, in a category as arbitrary and stupid as not skipping cut scenes. It made his run something like 4 hours longer than the runs on SDA, but will be the WR holder on the Twin Galaxies website, which has ties to the Guinness World Records. The guy has no one to compete with because who the hell would run in such category - and if someone does beat his slowpoke times, it just makes the category seem more legitimate as someone else has run it.

As a contrast to this example, I am currently working on a VTMB SS any% run, which no one has ever completed. Technically, there is no competition for this, since as far as I know I'm the only one running it. But at the least, my category is not something created simply so that I can have a world record. It is also a common category for many other games. But does this make my run more legitimate than prodigyx's self-made category?

I would hope so.

How do you guys feel about this?

Thread title:

I'd like to have a discussion on run categories due to the recent actions of Twin Galaxies and some other streamers. According to some greedy attention-seeking individuals, a new category for a game can be created on a whim in order to attain a world record for the sake of having a world record in something.

This guy, prodigyx, has created a new category for tomb raider - not skipping cut scenes. He also has some other limitations (glitchless) but isn't this a bit extreme? No one runs any game, as far as I know, in a category as arbitrary and stupid as not skipping cut scenes. It made his run something like 4 hours longer than the runs on SDA, but will be the WR holder on the Twin Galaxies website, which has ties to the Guinness World Records. The guy has no one to compete with because who the hell would run in such category - and if someone does beat his slowpoke times, it just makes the category seem more legitimate as someone else has run it.

As a contrast to this example, I am currently working on a VTMB SS any% run, which no one has ever completed. Technically, there is no competition for this, since as far as I know I'm the only one running it. But at the least, my category is not something created simply so that I can have a world record. It is also a common category for many other games. But does this make my run more legitimate than prodigyx's self-made category?

I would hope so.

How do you guys feel about this?

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2013-03-06 12:22:38 am

UraniumAnchor: 2013-03-06 12:22:15 am

2013-03-06 12:21:10 am

Not a walrus

We don't allow "arbitrary" categories, there has to be a good reason to put a limitation on yourself. Community support helps, in the sense that other runners of the game would even want to run the category. Precedent helps (similar categories in other games would be an example here, such as "No Pickups").

Making up a category just to claim a record is definitely something that gets frowned on here, so I don't think you have much to worry about.

Softman25

2013-03-06 12:23:42 am

In my opinion, it doesn't matter about the competition, it's about the category.

SS any% is a "legit" category, therefore your record once achieved, is ergo, legitimate.

lurk

2013-03-06 12:24:44 am

My worry is the ties TG has to GBWR. Guinness will listen to TG to report video game records as they have done in the past. Does the community just overlook the world record book even when the records have since been broken on SDA?

Joshkaz

2013-03-06 12:27:39 am

King Wabasami

Yes? When Wr's get broken everyday it's hard to take the word of a book using a site thats known to not be accurate serious.

UraniumAnchor

2013-03-06 12:29:07 am

Not a walrus

Short answer: Don't worry about TG's rules.

lurk

2013-03-06 12:31:57 am

Well think of it in contrast to the thread talking about SDA being relevant. They would rather listen to a highly inaccurate site than SDA? Seems kind of wrong, especially if SDA is moving towards being a knowledge base as well as an archive...

JackintheBox333

Edit history:

JackintheBox333: 2013-03-06 12:34:06 am

2013-03-06 12:33:49 am

Professional Shaq Fu Speedrunner

Twin Galaxies is corporate. SDA isn't. That's why Guinness listens to them. However SDA isn't a WR site. It isn't like SDA's times are all WR's either. SDA's times are more accurate I suppose.

presjpolk

2013-03-06 08:01:25 am

HELLO!

Some beer company's promotional book isn't something to worry about.

zewing

2013-03-06 08:20:27 am

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

Really no one should care about TG or these other sites. EVERY single run on this site is a damn good run that was proven legit. If you want to do a made up category cause you want a plaque/WR then you are not even a speedrunner.

Brossentia

2013-03-06 09:02:58 am

No pain, no gain

Yeah, I'll repeat it -- SDA is a demo repository, not a world record's site. This site does have many world records, but I don't think we care too much if a book embraces us as an authority or not, especially when they've been known to be wrong time and time again.

With that said, talking with your game's community about a specific game would help, and creating a run based on precedents is great. It's completely fine to run any mode on your own -- Ninja Gaiden pacifist, for instance -- and it doesn't have to make it on the site to be fun and worthwhile. The site does look for specific categories, though, and if you want on the site, fitting those categories is the best. Seems like you'd be doing that, so there's no problem.

garik16

2013-03-06 10:04:40 am

The best answer to stupidity is ignorance. TG isn't legitimate, so ignore them. GUINNESS really isn't legitimate either at this point - no one really cares and they themselves are stupid arbitrary (a recent article pointed out Guinness refused to recognize an Indian Man as the oldest man to run a marathon because he couldn't show a birth certificate, when India did not produce such certificates in the first place. LEGIT!)

General Vagueness

2013-03-06 10:54:07 am

Faster than the speed of love

Quote from garik16:

The best answer to stupidity is ignorance. TG isn't legitimate, so ignore them. GUINNESS really isn't legitimate either at this point - no one really cares and they themselves are stupid arbitrary (a recent article pointed out Guinness refused to recognize an Indian Man as the oldest man to run a marathon because he couldn't show a birth certificate, when India did not produce such certificates in the first place. LEGIT!)

so, what, they were supposed to just trust him?

doicm

2013-03-06 11:09:29 am

People care a lot about world records. This is serious stuff, I guess.

UraniumAnchor

2013-03-06 11:14:58 am

Not a walrus

If this thread devolves into TG bashing it's getting lit on fire, fair warning.

MAS8705

2013-03-06 12:15:08 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

Oh goodie, another "twin galaxies" thread. Still, I'm not going to talk about them.

Only in very rare situations would there be "specific requirement" runs, such as what We've seen in Mario 64 with the 0 star, 16 star, 70 star and 120 star runs. The idea of doing a "Speed run with cutscenes" when you can skip said cutscenes, is pretty silly. What is the point of doing a speed run on the game if you decide to watch all the scenes? Of course, not to take away from FFX and Skies of Arcadia, but if the option is there to skip cutscenes, you should take that option and use it at any time.

Still, like what everyone said, Guinness doesn't seem to be interested in SDA. Maybe if we got more ties with them, then maybe??? but I'm not going to start that debate since it is one that has been discussed many times over... including right now.

Alko

2013-03-06 12:46:14 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

What probably everyone's thinking but nobody's really saying out loud:
Most if not all 'special' categories, i.e. those that are not SS/segmented and percentage derived (or immediately offered by the game; think different characters such as Max and Goofy in Goof Troop) are built around making the game harder or more impressive to play/beat/speedrun. e.g. 'Small Mario only' makes a Super Mario Bros 3 all levels run more impressive, because you can't damage boost. Those categories are probably easily accepted by the game's speedrunning community, are probably considered 'legit' (even if they may not be featured on SDA for whatever reason).
On the other hand, a category 'no skippable cutscene skipping' adds nada to the impressiveness or skill-level of a speedrun. Very unlikely that such a category will be accepted by the game's community. I would assume it not to be considered 'legit'.

Also, discussion on the SDA forums should be about SDA, speedrunning in general or on SDA in particular. Discussion on the SDA forums should not be about Twin Galaxies, the Guiness Book of Records or which categories either of them calls legit. The relevant forums if existant should be used. (My 2¢)

What probably everyone's thinking but nobody's really saying out loud:
Most if not all 'special' categories, i.e. those that are not SS/segmented and percentage derived (or immediately offered by the game; think different characters such as Max and Goofy in Goof Troop) are built around making the game harder or more impressive to play/beat/speedrun. e.g. 'Small Mario only' makes a Super Mario Bros 3 all levels run more impressive, because you can't damage boost. Those categories are probably easily accepted by the game's speedrunning community, are probably considered 'legit' (even if they may not be featured on SDA for whatever reason).
On the other hand, a category 'no skippable cutscene skipping' adds nada to the impressiveness or skill-level of a speedrun. Very unlikely that such a category will be accepted by the game's community. I would assume it not to be considered 'legit'.

Also, discussion on the SDA forums should be about SDA, speedrunning in general or on SDA in particular. Discussion on the SDA forums should not be about Twin Galaxies, the Guiness Book of Records or which categories either of them calls legit. The relevant forums if existant should be used. (My 2¢)

UraniumAnchor

2013-03-06 12:48:43 pm

Not a walrus

There's nothing wrong with people comparing TG and SDA per se, but when people start complaining about TG's rules on SDA's forums, that's starting to get out of place.

Other than that I feel like you summed it up pretty well.

lurk

2013-03-06 12:50:48 pm

I'm glad you all seem to have the same additude towards this. I just hope the rest of the community outside of SDA sees it the same way.

presjpolk

2013-03-06 01:12:57 pm

HELLO!

I think the SDA community has no reason to be so insecure, that another community getting recognition would bother us.

lurk

2013-03-06 02:46:23 pm

It is not the recognition, it's the way in which some would create their own special categories to get that recognition. Could care less if it is on SDA or not - SRL does just fine and I know they won't accept this specialist categories either.

I have no name

2013-03-06 02:52:34 pm

Obscure games ftw

Actually, if 2 people want to race it and it's not stupid it goes on SRL. What's "stupid" depends on the person who goes to record the race unfortunately.
Ape Escape now 'officially' has a "drunk any%" category which is pure stupid.
It also has an any% no IJ (infinite jump) which is a really good category as it forces you to run within the constraints of what the developers originally included. Well, mostly Tongue

lurk

2013-03-06 02:55:15 pm

Do they take a Breathalyzer so both runners are at the same level of drunkness? (;

MAS8705

2013-03-06 03:29:00 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

Quote from hiro:

Do they take a Breathalyzer so both runners are at the same level of drunkness? (;

I'm sorry, I have to quote Mythbusters here.

Jamie: Adam, the police officer said you need to drink more.

Still, I doubt we here at SDA will do anything that stupid. Granted I'm sure we have done some pretty wacky things, although "Blind Runs" is probably as far as we've gotten in regards to that.

PJ

2013-03-06 03:33:19 pm

Is PJ

Just chiming in, Guinness had some contract with TG that said that TG had to supply them with a certain number of scores (IIRC). They were having trouble fulfilling that before TG was bought out and I suspect it'll have even more issues now. So yea, that tie will likely dissolve.

Also, Guinness' tie with TG is only for the "Twin Galaxies Scoreboard" section in the back of the gamer's edition book. Not the actual content of the gamer's book (which is riddled with times from SDA) or any of the content in the main book.