Age of Mythology - October 17th, 2011

2011-10-20 09:50:05 pm

It may not quite be optimization, but it's very close. If he had paused a lot more, he could have maybe shaved, what, 1 minute off the total? That's a maximum, and overall that's just a tiny fraction.
Also:
A. because of the creativity, and the time he spent thinking about some of these strategies, his current probably faster than any previous records made by pausing 100% of the time.
And B. His manual time is still probably faster than anybody's who would do this speed run without pausing, again, because he has clearly been innovative in his strategies.
If that is not optimization, I don't know what is.
I saw his speed run and IMO it's very, very high quality stuff. So if the point of this site is quality, why reject it? In my eyes, your website shows poor quality by rejecting this speed run.
Which is why, incidentally, I can't be arsed to make an account; on such a poor quality website.

zallard1

2011-10-20 10:36:27 pm

B+Left, Left, Up+B, ★

Quote from MisterDot:

I think you guys would be hard pressed to find someone who has the patience to optimize a speed run any more than this one.

You might wanna actually watch some other speedruns before saying such a thing. From the sounds of it, this run could still be improved by quite a bit of time. Compare that to something like the SMB speedrun, where andrewg has the run down to where a single second determines whether or not the run is a success or a failure. Some of the Contra games have their runs down to where it's a couple of seconds of error max. From the verifiers standpoint, it doesn't sound like this run was anything like that.

Quote from MisterDot:

I saw his speed run and IMO it's very, very high quality stuff. So if the point of this site is quality, why reject it? In my eyes, your website shows poor quality by rejecting this speed run.
Which is why, incidentally, I can't be arsed to make an account; on such a poor quality website.

lol

ShadowWraith

Edit history:

ShadowWraith: 2011-10-20 11:08:05 pm

2011-10-20 11:07:44 pm

.

Quote from MisterDot:

It may not quite be optimization, but it's very close. If he had paused a lot more, he could have maybe shaved, what, 1 minute off the total? That's a maximum, and overall that's just a tiny fraction.
Also:
A. because of the creativity, and the time he spent thinking about some of these strategies, his current probably faster than any previous records made by pausing 100% of the time.
And B. His manual time is still probably faster than anybody's who would do this speed run without pausing, again, because he has clearly been innovative in his strategies.
If that is not optimization, I don't know what is.
I saw his speed run and IMO it's very, very high quality stuff. So if the point of this site is quality, why reject it? In my eyes, your website shows poor quality by rejecting this speed run.
Which is why, incidentally, I can't be arsed to make an account; on such a poor quality website.

Perhaps you might be more interested in this site, or maybe this one. They seem to be more to your "accept any old bit of tat regardless of quality" standards.

[quote="MisterDot"]It may not quite be optimization, but it's very close. If he had paused a lot more, he could have maybe shaved, what, 1 minute off the total? That's a maximum, and overall that's just a tiny fraction. 
Also:
A. because of the creativity, and the time he spent thinking about some of these strategies, his current probably faster than any previous records made by pausing 100% of the time.
And B. His manual time is still probably faster than anybody's who would do this speed run without pausing, again, because he has clearly been innovative in his strategies.
If that is not optimization, I don't know what is.
I saw his speed run and IMO it's very, very high quality stuff. So if the point of this site is quality, why reject it? In my eyes, your website shows poor quality by rejecting this speed run.
Which is why, incidentally, I can't be arsed to make an account; on such a poor quality website.[/quote]

Perhaps you might be more interested in [url=http://www.twingalaxies.com]this[/url] site, or maybe [url=http://www.speedruns.net]this[/url] one. They seem to be more to your "accept any old bit of tat regardless of quality" standards.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-21 05:20:24 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-21 05:19:56 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-21 05:02:49 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-21 04:56:14 am

2011-10-21 04:48:42 am

Quote from MisterDot:

It may not quite be optimization, but it's very close. If he had paused a lot more, he could have maybe shaved, what, 1 minute off the total? That's a maximum, and overall that's just a tiny fraction.

Edit: Nevermind, I misread your post as Liderharen pointed out below.

There's no way that the time lost to pausing adds up to less than a minute. Level 32 alone has over a minute of pausing in it. All of the (half dozen or so) levels I watched featured multiple seconds of pauses for microing that could've been eliminated at little or no time cost. Multiple seconds of savings per level in a 32 level run makes me think we're talking about a single digit number of minutes lost to pausing, though I wouldn't want to get more precise than that when I haven't watched the whole run or played the game.

Quote from Flip:

While it's a bummer that the runner didn't understand the rules, the fact remains that the run isn't optimized for either method of timing.

Yep.

Quote:

In my opinion, the rules are clear that pausing for the purpose of timer manipulation could make your run qualify for manual timing. Is it not clear?

Hmm. I don't think that pausing to give commands can reasonably be considered 'timer manipulation'.

My understanding of the timer manipulation rule is that it's supposed to counter situations where you can do something like constantly spam pause to make the timer run slow. On the other hand in the case of pausing in an RTS, the timer is behaving how it's supposed to (timing all non-paused frames). Considering that pausing before cutscenes to stop an in-game timer counting them is allowed for some other games (a glitch that is purely about stopping the timer from counting something it normally would), it doesn't really seem consistent for pausing in an RTS (a normal gameplay mechanic which, depending upon your perspective, is either used to allow more precise control or to stop the timer from timing the time you spend microing, or a bit of both) to be considered timer manipulation. The pausing is being used the way it was intended to be used and the timer is timing exactly what the developers intended it to time; how is that 'manipulation' of anything?

Really I think we simply need an entirely separate rule (whether we think it's worth mentioning on the rules page or not) saying that if you pause to give units or characters commands in an RTS or RPG, and the game uses an in-game timer that doesn't count pause time, then your run will be manually timed to avoid excessive pausing being optimal. I think that rule is more similar in spirit to the save penalty (which exists to avoid excessive saving) than it is to the timer manipulation rule, though.

[quote="MisterDot"]It may not quite be optimization, but it's very close. If he had paused a lot more, he could have maybe shaved, what, 1 minute off the total? That's a maximum, and overall that's just a tiny fraction.[/quote]

Edit: Nevermind, I misread your post as Liderharen pointed out below.

[s]There's no way that the time lost to pausing adds up to less than a minute. Level 32 [i]alone[/i] has over a minute of pausing in it. All of the (half dozen or so) levels I watched featured multiple seconds of pauses for microing that could've been eliminated at little or no time cost. Multiple seconds of savings per level in a 32 level run makes me think we're talking about a single digit number of minutes lost to pausing, though I wouldn't want to get more precise than that when I haven't watched the whole run or played the game.[/s]

[quote="Flip"]While it's a bummer that the runner didn't understand the rules, the fact remains that the run isn't optimized for either method of timing.[/quote]

Yep.

[quote]In my opinion, the rules are clear that pausing for the purpose of timer manipulation could make your run qualify for manual timing. Is it not clear?[/quote]

Hmm. I don't think that pausing to give commands can reasonably be considered 'timer manipulation'.

My understanding of the timer manipulation rule is that it's supposed to counter situations where you can do something like constantly spam pause to make the timer run slow. On the other hand in the case of pausing in an RTS, the timer is behaving how it's supposed to (timing all non-paused frames). Considering that pausing before cutscenes to stop an in-game timer counting them is allowed for some other games (a glitch that is purely about stopping the timer from counting something it normally would), it doesn't really seem consistent for pausing in an RTS (a normal gameplay mechanic which, depending upon your perspective, is either used to allow more precise control or to stop the timer from timing the time you spend microing, or a bit of both) to be considered timer manipulation. The pausing is being used the way it was intended to be used and the timer is timing exactly what the developers intended it to time; how is that 'manipulation' of anything?

Really I think we simply need an entirely separate rule (whether we think it's worth mentioning on the rules page or not) saying that if you pause to give units or characters commands in an RTS or RPG, and the game uses an in-game timer that doesn't count pause time, then your run will be manually timed to avoid excessive pausing being optimal. I think that rule is more similar in spirit to the save penalty (which exists to avoid excessive saving) than it is to the timer manipulation rule, though.

Liderharen

Edit history:

Liderharen: 2011-10-21 05:09:40 am

Liderharen: 2011-10-21 05:08:42 am

2011-10-21 05:08:28 am

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

There's no way that the time lost to pausing adds up to less than a minute. Level 32 alone has over a minute of pausing in it. All of the (half dozen or so) levels I watched featured multiple seconds of pauses for microing that could've been eliminated at little or no time cost. Multiple seconds of savings per level in a 32 level run makes me think we're talking about a single digit number of minutes lost to pausing, though I wouldn't want to get more precise than that when I haven't watched the whole run or played the game.

I think he ment that by pausing even more there wasn't that much extra time to be saved. Regardless, I agree with cabbage about the rules.

Anyway, having watched a few of the levels in the run, I would encourage the runner to run the damn thing again and not use pause at all. It doesn't seem like any of his strategies depend on the pausing at all and they could easily have been done without. Without the pausing I get the impression that his run wouldn't have any problems getting verified and given that none of the levels needs any changes in the strategies (mostly), I would say thats an easy fix. So run it again please - Shouldn't take that long.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]There's no way that the time lost to pausing adds up to less than a minute. Level 32 [i]alone[/i] has over a minute of pausing in it. All of the (half dozen or so) levels I watched featured multiple seconds of pauses for microing that could've been eliminated at little or no time cost. Multiple seconds of savings per level in a 32 level run makes me think we're talking about a single digit number of minutes lost to pausing, though I wouldn't want to get more precise than that when I haven't watched the whole run or played the game.[/quote]

I think he ment that by pausing even more there wasn't that much extra time to be saved. Regardless, I agree with cabbage about the rules.

Anyway, having watched a few of the levels in the run, I would encourage the runner to run the damn thing again and not use pause at all. It doesn't seem like any of his strategies depend on the pausing at all and they could easily have been done without. Without the pausing I get the impression that his run wouldn't have any problems getting verified and given that none of the levels needs any changes in the strategies (mostly), I would say thats an easy fix. So run it again please - Shouldn't take that long.

ExplodingCabbage

2011-10-21 05:19:06 am

Quote from Liderharen:

I think he ment that by pausing even more there wasn't that much extra time to be saved.

You're right: I misread MisterDot's post and consequently my reply to it doesn't make sense. Sorry, MisterDot.

As for how much time could be saved on the timer with extra pausing, I don't know, not having watched the whole run with care, whether MisterDot's 1 minute estimate is reasonable or not.

TwIsTeD_EnEmY

Edit history:

TwIsTeD_EnEmY: 2011-10-21 08:15:17 am

2011-10-21 08:09:59 am

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Quote from Liderharen:

Its especially sad because the rejection seems to be based on the fact that the runner has misunderstood the rules.

Yes, but since the runner didn't actually properly optimise the run for the timing method he thought would be used, I don't think that any great injustice has happened here.

Quote:

It kinda bothers me how that could even happen?

Yeah, I agree with this, though. Rules confusions on this scale are bad, bad things that it would be best if we could eliminate totally - the fact that it probably didn't make a difference in this case notwithstanding.

Quote:

I am fairly certain the runner did post a topic about his run, even though i personally didnt pay close attention to it. Somebody should have picked up on it.

I checked in the thread and unfortunately the runner neither mentioned pausing nor posted any videos until the entire run was finished.

Quote:

Slightly off topic: Isnt there obvious rules about what constitutes 'normal game speed' in RTS games? Here im thinking of games like starcraft for instance, where you could obviously improve the game timer by playing in slow game in speed.

I don't think there's ever been an 'official' ruling on this. However up until now, I think, all RTS runs have been done on default game speed without pausing.

A video of my run was shown on my " quality test" thread, and i also showed a video to verifier #1 before i even started being serious about my speedrun attempts. Neither commented towards the ingame timer or pausing.

As for the quality of my gameplay, apart from level 23, maybe 30 seconds to a minute might be shaved off of the run in its entirity. pausing might save me 1, maybe 2 minutes. Hotkeys are easy, and Unit grouping isn't really necesary on most levels.

I know there will not be a faster or better speedrun of the game than mine. Thats all that matters to me. i know how much work i put into it, and i know the quality it has. At the risk of sounding spitefull, i dont need it on this website to know that.

@ Liderharen I dont see the point of it. Ive shown that my strategies are second to none, and i am a 1800+ player on AOM online, so obviously i know the hotkeys. I have nothing else to prove. At the end of the day, Not many people have shown an interest in watching my speedrun, i didn't have any fun at all running it, and i got nothing but bad cred and ciriticizisms for something i put my heart into.

It really is a downer when something that is probably one of the best things youve ever done is deemed not good enough

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"][quote="Liderharen"]Its especially sad because the rejection seems to be based on the fact that the runner has misunderstood the rules.[/quote]

Yes, but since the runner didn't actually properly optimise the run for the timing method he thought would be used, I don't think that any great injustice has happened here.

[quote]It kinda bothers me how that could even happen?[/quote]

Yeah, I agree with this, though. Rules confusions on this scale are bad, bad things that it would be best if we could eliminate totally - the fact that it probably didn't make a difference in this case notwithstanding.

[quote]I am fairly certain the runner did post a topic about his run, even though i personally didnt pay close attention to it. Somebody should have picked up on it.[/quote]

I checked in the thread and unfortunately the runner neither mentioned pausing nor posted any videos until the entire run was finished.

[quote]Slightly off topic: Isnt there obvious rules about what constitutes 'normal game speed' in RTS games? Here im thinking of games like starcraft for instance, where you could obviously improve the game timer by playing in slow game in speed.[/quote]

I don't think there's ever been an 'official' ruling on this. However up until now, I think, all RTS runs have been done on default game speed without pausing.[/quote]

A video of my run was shown on my " quality test" thread, and i also showed a video to verifier #1 before i even started being serious about my speedrun attempts. Neither commented towards the ingame timer or pausing.

As for the quality of my gameplay, apart from level 23, maybe 30 seconds to a minute might be shaved off of the run in its entirity.  pausing might save me 1, maybe 2 minutes. Hotkeys are easy, and Unit grouping isn't really necesary on most levels.

I know there will not be a faster or better speedrun of the game than mine. Thats all that matters to me. i know how much work i put into it, and i know the quality it has. At the risk of sounding spitefull, i dont need it on this website to know that.

@ Liderharen I dont see the point of it. Ive shown that my strategies are second to none, and i am a 1800+ player on AOM online, so obviously i know the hotkeys. I have nothing else to prove. At the end of the day, Not many people have shown an interest in watching my speedrun, i didn't have any fun at all running it, and i got nothing but bad cred and ciriticizisms for something i put my heart into.

It really is a downer when something that is probably one of the best things youve ever done is deemed not good enough

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-10-21 08:22:25 am

2011-10-21 08:16:23 am

Sandbagging

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

A video of my run was shown on my " quality test" thread, and i also showed a video to verifier #1 before i even started being serious about my speedrun attempts. Neither commented towards the ingame timer or pausing.

Videos posted in the quality test threads are not used to determine the gameplay quality of a run.
Most of these videos usually have a lot of errors and sloppy gameplay in them so nobody could have assumed that you'd keep up the excessive pausing.

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

As for the quality of my gameplay, apart from level 23, maybe 30 seconds to a minute might be shaved off of the run in its entirity. Not pausing might save me 1, maybe 2 minutes. Hotkeys are easy, and Unit grouping isn't really necesary on most levels.

Over 3 minutes of wasted time in a segmented run, really ?

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

I know there will not be a faster or better speedrun of the game than mine.

Ego much?

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

i didn't have any fun at all running it

...why did you run it in the first place then ?

[quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
A video of my run was shown on my " quality test" thread, and i also showed a video to verifier #1 before i even started being serious about my speedrun attempts. Neither commented towards the ingame timer or pausing.
[/quote]

Videos posted in the quality test threads are not used to determine the gameplay quality of a run.
Most of these videos usually have a lot of errors and sloppy gameplay in them so nobody could have assumed that you'd keep up the excessive pausing.

[quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
As for the quality of my gameplay, apart from level 23, maybe 30 seconds to a minute might be shaved off of the run in its entirity. Not pausing might save me 1, maybe 2 minutes. Hotkeys are easy, and Unit grouping isn't really necesary on most levels.
[/quote]

Over 3 minutes of wasted time in a segmented run, really ?

[quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
I know there will not be a faster or better speedrun of the game than mine.
[/quote]

Ego much?

[quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
i didn't have any fun at all running it
[/quote]
...why did you run it in the first place then ?

Liderharen

Edit history:

Liderharen: 2011-10-21 08:25:24 am

Liderharen: 2011-10-21 08:23:47 am

2011-10-21 08:19:35 am

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

@ Liderharen I dont see the point of it. Ive shown that my strategies are second to none, and i am a 1800+ player on AOM online, so obviously i know the hotkeys. I have nothing else to prove. At the end of the day, Not many people have shown an interest in watching my speedrun, i didn't have any fun at all running it, and i got nothing but bad cred and ciriticizisms for something i put my heart into.

That alone seems like plenty of reason why this isnt worth giving up on like that. Especially considering what relatively little effort it would take to remake it. If your run got rid of the pauses and got posted here on SDA im certain that you would get a lot more views and the recognition you believe you deserve.

My point is if you give up on it now - All your effort would pretty much be for nothing. However put slightly more effort into it and it will almost certainly be not only worth that time, but also all the previous time you have spent on the run. You owe it to yourself and the community!

[quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
@ Liderharen I dont see the point of it. Ive shown that my strategies are second to none, and i am a 1800+ player on AOM online, so obviously i know the hotkeys. I have nothing else to prove. At the end of the day, Not many people have shown an interest in watching my speedrun, i didn't have any fun at all running it, and i got nothing but bad cred and ciriticizisms for something i put my heart into.
[/quote]

That alone seems like plenty of reason why this isnt worth giving up on like that. Especially considering what relatively little effort it would take to remake it. If your run got rid of the pauses and got posted here on SDA im certain that you would get a lot more views and the recognition you believe you deserve.

My point is if you give up on it now - All your effort would pretty much be for nothing. However put slightly more effort into it and it will almost certainly be not only worth that time, but also all the previous time you have spent on the run. You owe it to yourself and the community!

TwIsTeD_EnEmY

Edit history:

TwIsTeD_EnEmY: 2011-10-21 08:28:18 am

2011-10-21 08:26:19 am

Quote from Exo:

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

A video of my run was shown on my " quality test" thread, and i also showed a video to verifier #1 before i even started being serious about my speedrun attempts. Neither commented towards the ingame timer or pausing.

Videos posted in the quality test threads are not used to determine the quality of a run.
Most of these videos usually have a lot of errors and sloppy gameplay in them so nobody could have assumed that you'd keep up the excessive pausing.

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

As for the quality of my gameplay, apart from level 23, maybe 30 seconds to a minute might be shaved off of the run in its entirity. Not pausing might save me 1, maybe 2 minutes. Hotkeys are easy, and Unit grouping isn't really necesary on most levels.

Over 3 minutes of wasted time in a segmented run, really ?

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

I know there will not be a faster or better speedrun of the game than mine.

Ego much?

Quote from TwIsTeD_EnEmY:

i didn't have any fun at all running it

...why did you run it in the first place then ?

Im saying, pershaps someone should have picked up on it. The level i showed on the quality test, Level 17, was the only level i had done at that point seriously.

3 Minutes is a guess. It could be far more, it could be far less. I dont know, i have not tried running it w/o pausing. Considering that RTS games are possibly the most difficult games to speedrun, i think thats not a bad feat. Especially since i knocked 30+ Minutes off the previous record time.

Im not coming here to Ego post, im simply saying what i feel. There aren't many players around who play AOM at the same skill level, and have the same amount of knowlege as someone like me, and other than Bolddengrenn, noone else has been interested in speedrunning this game. Is it likely someone else will speedrun it? Its possible, but for a 10 year old game, the game isn't exactly growing in interest is it?. Is it likely they will achieve a better time? In my honest oppinion, no. if someone wants to try, the bounty i put on my record being beaten still stands.

[quote="Exo"][quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
A video of my run was shown on my " quality test" thread, and i also showed a video to verifier #1 before i even started being serious about my speedrun attempts. Neither commented towards the ingame timer or pausing.
[/quote]

Videos posted in the quality test threads are not used to determine the quality of a run.
Most of these videos usually have a lot of errors and sloppy gameplay in them so nobody could have assumed that you'd keep up the excessive pausing.

[quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
As for the quality of my gameplay, apart from level 23, maybe 30 seconds to a minute might be shaved off of the run in its entirity. Not pausing might save me 1, maybe 2 minutes. Hotkeys are easy, and Unit grouping isn't really necesary on most levels.
[/quote]

Over 3 minutes of wasted time in a segmented run, really ?

[quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
I know there will not be a faster or better speedrun of the game than mine.
[/quote]

Ego much?

[quote="TwIsTeD_EnEmY"]
i didn't have any fun at all running it
[/quote]
...why did you run it in the first place then ?[/quote]

Im saying, pershaps someone should have picked up on it. The level i showed on the quality test, Level 17, was the only level i had done at that point seriously.

3 Minutes is a guess. It could be far more, it could be far less. I dont know, i have not tried running it w/o pausing. Considering that RTS games are possibly the most difficult games to speedrun, i think thats not a bad feat. Especially since i knocked 30+ Minutes off the previous record time.

Im not coming here to Ego post, im simply saying what i feel. There aren't many players around who play AOM at the same skill level, and have the same amount of knowlege as someone like me, and other than Bolddengrenn, noone else has been interested in speedrunning this game. Is it likely someone else will speedrun it? Its possible, but for a 10 year old game, the game isn't exactly growing in interest is it?. Is it likely they will achieve a better time? In my honest oppinion, no. if someone wants to try, the bounty i put on my record being beaten still stands.

MisterDot

2011-10-21 09:03:53 am

Quote from zallard1:

Quote from MisterDot:

I think you guys would be hard pressed to find someone who has the patience to optimize a speed run any more than this one.

You might wanna actually watch some other speedruns before saying such a thing. From the sounds of it, this run could still be improved by quite a bit of time.

"From the sounds of it"? You might wanna actually watch this speed run before considering the others to be better. Incidentally I checked out other AOT speed runs, and this one is far better.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2011-10-21 09:52:26 am

2011-10-21 09:51:42 am

Not a walrus

3 minutes of improvement in a segmented run means there are plenty of runs on this site with better optimization, I don't have to watch the videos to know that. Now if you meant FOR THIS GAME, it's still not a valid point because segmented runs are generally held to a higher standard. Especially when the improvement is relatively obvious, such as 'not pausing so much'.

Liderharen

Edit history:

Liderharen: 2011-10-23 06:24:12 am

Liderharen: 2011-10-21 09:57:24 am

Liderharen: 2011-10-21 09:55:27 am

2011-10-21 09:53:03 am

I feel like I want to say a few things about RTS speed runs. I hope it will give you an idea about what makes an RTS run good and hopefully also give you some motivation to redo your AOM run.

My opinion on RTS runs

Personally I consider myself an RTS player through and through. I have basically played nothing but RTS games for the past 10 years and I have been playing competitively for about 5 years. I feel like I have an extensive knowledge of how to play RTS games. I also agree with you that RTS games are some of the most difficult games to speed run given that usually the optimal time to beat a level is not only limited by the speed of the player, but also by what strategy they can come up with. Unlike most other games, RTS runs can almost ALWAYS be improve by a faster player executing the exact same strategy - there isnt really an upper bound to how fast a level can be completed.

A good example of this is my own run of chapter 1 in the undead campaign in my wc3 tft run, where you have to control 3 armies at the same time. Controlling each army individually I could easily get sub 4 minutes on the level, however having to control 3 armies at once meant i have to settle with 5:26. The moment a quicker player than me picks up that level he could demolish my time.

That is why I think RTS runs are the most fun to watch, because they directly reflect not only the strategy knowledge of the runner, but also their speed. I think its the perfect genre to really showcase the overall skill of a player and I dont really think any other genre of games challenge the runner in the same way. That is why I wish there were given more attention to RTS runs on SDA.

What makes a good RTS speedrun?

In my opinion a good RTS speedrun is a combination of Speed and Strategy

Strategy is basically what your plan is to beat a particular level. It includes build order, plan of attack, timing, exploiting ai, really anything that involves planning of how a level can be beaten.

Speed is basically how you execute that plan. It includes micro (how fast you control your units in battle) and macromanagement (how fast do you spend your ressources and build up your base)

I have never played AOM, so when I watch your run I am in no position to judge if your strategies are the best. However, what I can judge is the execution of your strategy and that is exactly where your run fails to impress. Whenever you pause the game in your run, it is an immediate turn off for people like me. You never get a glimpse of how good the runner actually is at handling intense multitasking situations and thus you never get those 'Wow this guy is really fucking fast' moments. Even though you consider it unfair that perfect strategy isn't enough to get accepted, understand that a perfect strategy isn't worth that much for people who havn't played the game.

For people who have played the game, the strategies that you have chosen are of huge importance. They are the ones in a position to judge if you could have actually saved time by doing something different and it is just as important for a good run. It seems to me patently obvious that you have dedicated yourself to finding the best strategies and that is what you have spent your time on. From personal experience that IS what takes time, execution is just a matter of practice and finding an appropriate moment for when you are satisfied.

Personally, ill take your word for it that you have the best strategies and that is the important thing to have done, since that is what takes time to get right. It is unfortunate that not that many people can fully appreciate that effort that went to into this process, but that doesn't stop them from enjoying a run like this. Anybody who havnt even played the game can STILL enjoy a run with tight ressource management, sick micro and awesome multitasking. All you need to is perfect the execution. If you are as good as you claim, then trust me, getting the execution down is the easy part.

Your AOM run

It is really tragic that your run has ended up in this situation, but I hope you can realize that your run is actually missing an essential part for it to be complete. I also hope that you realize that even though the rules could potentially be more clear, the main person to blame for the situation is yourself. On that note SDA should perhaps make it even more clear that consulting the forums and posting preliminary runs should almost be mandatory (I know it already is, but perhaps its not enough). If anything, this should serve as a lesson for future runners.

I sincerely hope you get back on your feet and redo the run without pausing, even though it might mean a lower in game timer. Trust me when I say that getting execution down is the easy part and you owe it to yourself to get it right.

// Liderharen

I feel like I want to say a few things about RTS speed runs. I hope it will give you an idea about what makes an RTS run good and hopefully also give you some motivation to redo your AOM run.

[b]My opinion on RTS runs[/b]

Personally I consider myself an RTS player through and through. I have basically played nothing but RTS games for the past 10 years and I have been playing competitively for about 5 years. I feel like I have an extensive knowledge of how to play RTS games. I also agree with you that RTS games are some of the most difficult games to speed run given that usually the optimal time to beat a level is not only limited by the speed of the player, but also by what strategy they can come up with. Unlike most other games, RTS runs can almost ALWAYS be improve by a faster player executing the exact same strategy - there isnt really an upper bound to how fast a level can be completed.

[i]A good example of this is my own run of chapter 1 in the undead campaign in my wc3 tft run, where you have to control 3 armies at the same time. Controlling each army individually I could easily get sub 4 minutes on the level, however having to control 3 armies at once meant i have to settle with 5:26. The moment a quicker player than me picks up that level he could demolish my time.[/i]

That is why I think RTS runs are the most fun to watch, because they directly reflect not only the strategy knowledge of the runner, but also their speed. I think its the perfect genre to really showcase the overall skill of a player and I dont really think any other genre of games challenge the runner in the same way. That is why I wish there were given more attention to RTS runs on SDA.

[b]What makes a good RTS speedrun? [/b]

In my opinion a good RTS speedrun is a combination of [b]Speed [/b]and [b]Strategy[/b]

[b]Strategy[/b] is basically what your plan is to beat a particular level. It includes build order, plan of attack, timing, exploiting ai, really anything  that involves planning of how a level can be beaten.

[b]Speed[/b] is basically how you execute that plan. It includes micro (how fast you control your units in battle) and macromanagement (how fast do you spend your ressources and build up your base)

I have never played AOM, so when I watch your run I am in no position to judge if your strategies are the best. However, what I can judge is the execution of your strategy and that is exactly where your run fails to impress. Whenever you pause the game in your run, it is an immediate turn off for people like me. You never get a glimpse of how good the runner actually is at handling intense multitasking situations and thus you never get those 'Wow this guy is really fucking fast' moments. Even though you consider it unfair that perfect strategy isn't enough to get accepted, understand that a perfect strategy isn't worth that much for people who havn't played the game.

For people who have played the game, the strategies that you have chosen are of huge importance. They are the ones in a position to judge if you could have actually saved time by doing something different and it is just as important for a good run. It seems to me patently obvious that you have dedicated yourself to finding the best strategies and that is what you have spent your time on. From personal experience that IS what takes time, execution is just a matter of practice and finding an appropriate moment for when you are satisfied.

Personally, ill take your word for it that you have the best strategies and that is the important thing to have done, since that is what takes time to get right. It is unfortunate that not that many people can fully appreciate that effort that went to into this process, but that doesn't stop them from enjoying a run like this. Anybody who havnt even played the game can STILL enjoy a run with tight ressource management, sick micro and awesome multitasking. All you need to is perfect the execution. If you are as good as you claim, then trust me, getting the execution down is the easy part.

[b]Your AOM run[/b]

It is really tragic that your run has ended up in this situation, but I hope you can realize that your run is actually missing an essential part for it to be complete. I also hope that you realize that even though the rules could potentially be more clear, the main person to blame for the situation is yourself. On that note SDA should perhaps make it even more clear that consulting the forums and posting preliminary runs should almost be mandatory (I know it already is, but perhaps its not enough). If anything, this should serve as a lesson for future runners.

I sincerely hope you get back on your feet and redo the run without pausing, even though it might mean a lower in game timer. Trust me when I say that getting execution down is the easy part and you owe it to yourself to get it right.

// Liderharen

zallard1

2011-10-21 10:42:14 am

B+Left, Left, Up+B, ★

Quote from MisterDot:

"From the sounds of it"? You might wanna actually watch this speed run before considering the others to be better. Incidentally I checked out other AOT speed runs, and this one is far better.

I don't care enough to watch a run of an RTS, sorry; it's just not my genre. Also, your post said it would be hard to find someone who has the patience to optimize "a" speed run as much as this one, not an AoM speedrun. As far as AoM speedruns go, I really have no idea how this one stacks against those because, again, I don't watch RTS runs.

I think you should take what Liderharen said to heart, TwIsTeD_EnEmY. It sounds like this is a game you care about, so why not at least try to execute your best strategies without pausing?

dballin

2011-10-21 03:52:36 pm

Balls jerky

I kinda want to buy this game now.

Lag.Com

2011-10-21 04:10:33 pm

sda loyalist

I love RTS speedruns and have two in the works myself (and a couple of other less feasible ones planned). This isn't a series I know anything about however, so don't count on me to ever run it. I'm cheering for more RTS presence on this site, but I'll draw the line at unoptimised play. The StarCraft ILs we have currently are quite precise and show good technical skill and knowledge in their execution, and hosting this alongside them doesn't gel with how I view speedrunning.

Poxnor

2011-10-21 04:16:50 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from dballin:

I kinda want to buy this game now.

Go for it; it's an awesome game. It's a shame that it memory leaks like a first-year CS student's first C program -- but, it's really fun nonetheless Smiley

MAS8705

2011-10-21 04:28:24 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

Well this is concerning... It seems that Age of mythology is such an old game (2002) it is hard to locate a place to buy a game, not even any "buy and download" just the "free" downloads...

Still, it looks like Amazon has the game at about $10

...

Why do I feel as though this game is going to get jumped in the very near future?

dballin

2011-10-21 04:34:24 pm

Balls jerky

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Age-Mythology-Gold-Edition-and-Age-Empires-Collectors-edition-/330626651217?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item4cfae25451

Freezard

2011-10-21 06:20:04 pm

Exactly where can I see his runs? I've played this game but never online, it's a pretty good game though.

dballin

2011-10-21 06:24:11 pm

Balls jerky

That's level 1. There's no playlist for it that I can find, but they should all be there.

OnyxShadow

2011-10-21 08:23:13 pm

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce!

I probably could have verified this run, but I was a little busy at the time. After looking at a few levels from the Youtube page, I'm gonna agree with Liderharen about redoing it without pausing. If you can save anywhere near the 30 minutes you save over the existing record (and from watching a bit of your run I think that should be no problem) then it would be worth it to redo this. Of course its completely up to you, but I think it would be a shame to miss out on the exhilaration of seeing your name on the front page of SDA.