Its not actually a fighting game.
EDIT: At least not in the traditional sense.
EDIT: At least not in the traditional sense.
Okay, you were warned. I'll unban you after the submission period ends, peter afro.
SDA Forum
Quote from Zwataketa:
Quote from peter afro:
Why was Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix accepted?
I dont think thats a fighting game, i think its a tetris style game or something, so maybe thats why? It has some potential?
Thats exactly what it is, you can take 2 seconds to check the video and see what that is.
Mike here is IMO the best selling point I can give to FFT:
Look at some of the people who are supporting the inclusion of FFT (I'm obviously going to miss everyone who has voiced their support for this game I'm just pulling a couple of names that I saw), you have people like Cyghfer, Garrison, and Golden supporting the inclusion of FFT into this marathon. All 3 of those are self noted (I think all of them are at least) as uninterested in watching RPG speed runs. Those are obviously not just the only 3 people who typically have no interest in RPG speed runs that have an interest in watching this run. Yes I totally understand that the speed running community itself is not the best indicator of stream viewer interest, but what you can gather from that is if Claude's run is convincing a lot of people who normally do not have any interest in watching a run to watch, you can't deny that that would translate over to the stream viewer side of things. The reason I can draw that corollary is since they have no interest in watching RPG runs, they are exactly like a stream viewer in terms of watching interest. Can you say that an RPG has garnered that sort of viewing interest before from the community, especially the side of the community that generally has no interest in watching these runs?
Here is also another fine selling point IMO to the inclusion. You can put this run at 3AM if you want (well I'm sure claude wouldn't be overly enthusiastic about a 3AM run but I'm guessing for him that's better than a rejection), I can guarantee you at the very least it's going to get more people in the marathon room watching it than your average 3AM run (obviously I would not consider awful games to be part of the average 3AM run as it's not a typical theme in graveyard). When there are more people watching it in the marathon room and engaged, I think you would agree that that almost always translates to a better engaged stream viewership and more stream viewers in general. I know speaking personally, my interest level generally falls down when I don't know a game AND there seems to be no interest level in the crowd. I had no interest in watching SMB2 prior to SGDQ beginning, but I was convinced to watch it during the marathon and was very glad that I did. I honestly believe the same thing will happen with FFT if it hasn't happened already with the community reaction to its rejection.
I think it's fair to be skeptical to the 2nd point, but you can't deny that there has never been more vocal support for a rejected game than this one. That has to translate to more engagement at the marathon.
Look at some of the people who are supporting the inclusion of FFT (I'm obviously going to miss everyone who has voiced their support for this game I'm just pulling a couple of names that I saw), you have people like Cyghfer, Garrison, and Golden supporting the inclusion of FFT into this marathon. All 3 of those are self noted (I think all of them are at least) as uninterested in watching RPG speed runs. Those are obviously not just the only 3 people who typically have no interest in RPG speed runs that have an interest in watching this run. Yes I totally understand that the speed running community itself is not the best indicator of stream viewer interest, but what you can gather from that is if Claude's run is convincing a lot of people who normally do not have any interest in watching a run to watch, you can't deny that that would translate over to the stream viewer side of things. The reason I can draw that corollary is since they have no interest in watching RPG runs, they are exactly like a stream viewer in terms of watching interest. Can you say that an RPG has garnered that sort of viewing interest before from the community, especially the side of the community that generally has no interest in watching these runs?
Here is also another fine selling point IMO to the inclusion. You can put this run at 3AM if you want (well I'm sure claude wouldn't be overly enthusiastic about a 3AM run but I'm guessing for him that's better than a rejection), I can guarantee you at the very least it's going to get more people in the marathon room watching it than your average 3AM run (obviously I would not consider awful games to be part of the average 3AM run as it's not a typical theme in graveyard). When there are more people watching it in the marathon room and engaged, I think you would agree that that almost always translates to a better engaged stream viewership and more stream viewers in general. I know speaking personally, my interest level generally falls down when I don't know a game AND there seems to be no interest level in the crowd. I had no interest in watching SMB2 prior to SGDQ beginning, but I was convinced to watch it during the marathon and was very glad that I did. I honestly believe the same thing will happen with FFT if it hasn't happened already with the community reaction to its rejection.
I think it's fair to be skeptical to the 2nd point, but you can't deny that there has never been more vocal support for a rejected game than this one. That has to translate to more engagement at the marathon.
Games!
I'm not The Claude, so I don't know FFT quite like he does, but I do want to respond to a couple points.
1) I've watched a few full runs of FFT (by Claude) and never felt there was any 'down time'. Every moment had something worthwhile: foreshadowing of what's to come, explanation of lesser known mechanics, a bit of story, or otherwise entertaining commentary. I mean, you do want time to read donations off right? That's still a thing we do at these?
3) You're overgeneralizing; the same could be said of almost any speedrun. I'd speak to specifics, but I only know enough to say that each battle stood out to me.
4) I take it you've never played FFT? Or talked to someone who has? The 'generics' are more important than the story characters, both to casual players and speed runners. I don't remember half of who does what in the story, but I still remember my generics. I bonded with those units, we went through many dangerous missions where they defied all odds and did amazing things time and again. They aren't just some file name that's seen only once (or gets reset part way through the run), they're core to the gameplay and will be CALLED OUT BY NAME throughout the run.
I wouldn't donate to save Algus. But donate to kill? That sounds much more tempting. Perhaps a bid war.
Cloud would be at the end of this chain of quests and recruitments.
PS: I named one of the generics myself. I could've renamed Ramaza (the main character) to myself, but the 'generic' meant more to me. They will make great donation incentives. As well as blind folded final boss fight.
PPS: My power went out as I was typing this, so I drove to the local library for free wifi to post.
1) I've watched a few full runs of FFT (by Claude) and never felt there was any 'down time'. Every moment had something worthwhile: foreshadowing of what's to come, explanation of lesser known mechanics, a bit of story, or otherwise entertaining commentary. I mean, you do want time to read donations off right? That's still a thing we do at these?
3) You're overgeneralizing; the same could be said of almost any speedrun. I'd speak to specifics, but I only know enough to say that each battle stood out to me.
4) I take it you've never played FFT? Or talked to someone who has? The 'generics' are more important than the story characters, both to casual players and speed runners. I don't remember half of who does what in the story, but I still remember my generics. I bonded with those units, we went through many dangerous missions where they defied all odds and did amazing things time and again. They aren't just some file name that's seen only once (or gets reset part way through the run), they're core to the gameplay and will be CALLED OUT BY NAME throughout the run.
I wouldn't donate to save Algus. But donate to kill? That sounds much more tempting. Perhaps a bid war.
Quote from Claude:
4d) Recruiting optional characters (+30 minutes?)
Cloud would be at the end of this chain of quests and recruitments.
PS: I named one of the generics myself. I could've renamed Ramaza (the main character) to myself, but the 'generic' meant more to me. They will make great donation incentives. As well as blind folded final boss fight.
PPS: My power went out as I was typing this, so I drove to the local library for free wifi to post.
My Red/Blue run was waitlisted, and I know Werster already mentioned it but the estimates can be cut in half. I think it's safe to say my Red/Blue submission can be cut especially since I was accepted for Gold/Silver, we'd be doing the same route and he offered blindfolded
I can also offer to do the old Red/Blue route which shows off different glitches, if there's extra time
I can also offer to do the old Red/Blue route which shows off different glitches, if there's extra time
I just want to say I agree with darkman. I completely hate RPG speedruns except SMRPG but I know this one is more than worthy of being in this marathon. Also I was in the same boat as darkman regarding SMB2 (I personally hate it) and I have never been so glad I listened to people because it was more than worth it. I honestly believe rejecting this game is the biggest mistake that could be made.
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Just wanted to bring this up in-case no one has said anything yet. Are there plans to go and actually adjust all the runner-made estimates? Right now, there are LOADS of estimates that still include set-up for people who didn't get the memo about the new system. That potentially leads to HOURS of marathon time being given to accepted games that are not needed. Examples: 40 Minutes for dxtr MM1(Probably should be like 23), 45 Minutes for Trogdor X2(Should probably be like 36 or 37). I'm sure this is something that will be worked out, just thought I'd start the discussion, because it would be depressing knowing multiple hours of marathon time are still there to be handed out, but we don't know right now.
edit: To note, I still think this is the estimate method of the future we should keep using, but there is obviously an adjustment period.
edit: To note, I still think this is the estimate method of the future we should keep using, but there is obviously an adjustment period.
Strange days, incredible days
Quote:
Commentary: Yes, Claude's commentary is great, and yes, that is a big part of an RPG run, since the mechanics and strategies have to be explained more than most other games. However, commentary is not 100% of it. There's also the popularity/nostalgia, content (gameplay, cutscenes, etc.), and donation incentives. Final Fantasy Tactics definitely has the nostalgia, but it's the other two I'm very worried about.
I guess it's hard for me to see an argument against FFT's gameplay that doesn't also disqualify most RPGs that have made it into past GDQs. It's not any less flashy than FF7-9, and those repeat the same attacks for a large part of the run as well. Is it more boring to see Bolt123/Odin/Meteor/teleport Katana kills in FFT than the equivalent strongest attacks in anything else? Especially since every FFT fight has unique backgrounds and layouts, where you'll see the same mountain or forest backdrop in other RPG random battles countless times.
Quote:
1. I guess, there are still a ton of cutscenes though, and they are quite lengthy.
This is going to sound a little strange, but I think the cutscenes are part of why people tune in to RPG runs in marathons. I base this on having watched a lot of them in past marathons and seeing the chat relive and debate the game, laughing at translation errors and amusing lines of dialogue (which FFT has in spades). Without the cutscenes, most JRPG runs are walking, menuing, and breezing through battles. Totally fine as a speed project, but in a marathon, I know many RPG fans come to see the games as much as the speedrun. Not being able to skip cutscenes is kind of a mixed blessing in a setting like this, because it's the runner and 50-80k other people reliving the experience of these epic things. I think that's a big part of why they're successful. It's a marathon unto itself that has time to generate narratives and inside-jokes (wondershot!).
It might turn off some casual viewers who have no interest in the story or seeing dialogue boxes mashed through. But not every viewer is going to like every game, and not every game needs to appeal to every viewer, or some concept of an "average viewer". FFT is a guaranteed hit for a sizeable audience that, in many cases, won't be interested in anything else from the event. Each game is a piece of the larger picture, rather than needing to hold every potential viewer's attention. It's not like the people that aren't interested in FFT aren't going to tune in for 120 star or Ocarina 100% if it's in there.
Quote:
4. You miss the point. There's no attachment to the random units. They're not like a main character in an rpg where they have some role in the story. Sure, the generic units are important for finishing the game, but it's not like there's much attachment to them. I don't really care if you use an extra unit or not, that's not the point.
Quote from mikwuyma:
FFT generics are very integral to the story, actually. Haven't you ever done job propositions? "This is the way!"
But seriously, I'm having trouble disambiguating your points from applying to practically every JRPG out there. FFT has donation incentives, and I think that you're worried that either there are not enough of them, and/or the ones that are there aren't appealing enough to get donations. If there aren't enough of them, then that's a fair point - at least, if there was an understood "incentives per hour of gameplay" quota to meet. As for quality of each, that's pretty subjective. You don't know what's going to be popular, that's all gut feeling. Yes, you could say that there is "no attachment to the random units", which would be the case regarding their roles in the story. I think the fact that the donated names will be seen in every battle, be a part of characters whose abilities develop over time, and be referred to constantly in commentary, can stand as a point against that - and FFT fans will probably understand that pretty well.
As for the content of the game being weak: Every other 'GDQ appropriate RPG has repetitive battles and loads of cutscenes. Maybe the concern is that FFT has more than ususal, or that they are of lower quality. I'd say that a large amount of nostalgia of the game does come from cutscenes - particularly, the bad translation, hard to understand story, the isometric sprites and environments, and of course, some main character backstabbing another character in like every one. I think people will enjoy seeing that, especially with Claude summarizing the backstory, making comparisons to the dialog of the Japanese version, and discussing upcoming strategy. Yes, the gameplay is mostly menuing, unlike other JRPGs, where you have menuing in addition to holding a direction on the d-pad to watch your sprite move through nonthreatening towns and locales. I really don't see how the gameplay here is a concern in comparison to other JRPGs - quickly changing character loadouts or managing units on the field can be pretty impressive to watch. I don't find this run any more repetitive than previous 'GDQRPGs (or 5+ hour zelda games, for that matter, but that may be just me).
Ultimately, the arguments here feel like they were made after having already decided to reject it, and shoehorned in after the fact. Like a knee-jerk reaction to "jeez, FFT? That's way too long/boring" without considering the actual run being offered.
Many words! Handle it!
I guess I just don't understand why FFT is somehow less worthy than the RPGs that traditionally get in. I feel like the arguments against FFT are just as true, if not moreso, for games that otherwise get accepted repeatedly. Some of the stated weaknesses of the game have legitimately been called the strengths of other JRPG runs (though granted, usually in the context of the finale).
In the end I understand that it's about potential money raised, and admittedly FFT doesn't have the strongest incentives (though I would argue the same could be said of 95% of games). That said I don't agree that the generics don't have attachment. Because they are the characters that you literally build from scratch yourself, I've always felt I cared a lot more about them than the dudes who appear in the cutscenes you mash through. I also think that a donation to use Rafa and/or Malak would be a legitimately good incentive.
Obviously FFT is a risk, but I don't think it is as big as it may seem. It has the fanbase, it has the entertainment value, it has the nostalgia, it has an excellent runner, it has the hype, and it's something that the every growing population of multi-marathon viewers have probably never seen. How many other games can claim all of those things?
In the end I understand that it's about potential money raised, and admittedly FFT doesn't have the strongest incentives (though I would argue the same could be said of 95% of games). That said I don't agree that the generics don't have attachment. Because they are the characters that you literally build from scratch yourself, I've always felt I cared a lot more about them than the dudes who appear in the cutscenes you mash through. I also think that a donation to use Rafa and/or Malak would be a legitimately good incentive.
Obviously FFT is a risk, but I don't think it is as big as it may seem. It has the fanbase, it has the entertainment value, it has the nostalgia, it has an excellent runner, it has the hype, and it's something that the every growing population of multi-marathon viewers have probably never seen. How many other games can claim all of those things?
Old Iron Giant
This sounds like the "We don't want Halo 2 again cause of the bad rep of last time" all over again.
Though in this case FFT isn't even being given a chance, you know I love you Uyama but sometimes you come off as a wee bit misinformed when explaining your reasoning's for rejections, it just sounds like you saw FFT and denied it instantly.
Just my interpretation of course, I could be way off.
Though in this case FFT isn't even being given a chance, you know I love you Uyama but sometimes you come off as a wee bit misinformed when explaining your reasoning's for rejections, it just sounds like you saw FFT and denied it instantly.
Just my interpretation of course, I could be way off.
Honestly, I can remember a time at C4L 2013 when many weren't sure Demon Chocobo was even going to make a dime. 3 separate marathons later, it's still a hit. I'd personally chip in $200 to try to snipe "kill Algus" because that little douchebag deserves death. DEATH!!! Ahem...anyway...
I can understand if there are one or two specific RPG's that Mike has in mind for this year, and simply can't factor in 5 hours for FFT. That is a legitimate reality, and worst-case scenario, FFT is at least on the radar. BUT...
I'm having a hard time finding another Marathon-friendly RPG title that the community can get behind even remotely as much as FFT right now (sorry Dreamboum!) I've been involved in two separate RPG-only marathons, and I can say Claude's commentary is the best I've ever heard, and should be the benchmark for others to follow. As someone who knows that value for a longer run, that last point can't be stressed enough...
I know RPG's usually aren't strong at GDQ's, and with Limit Break taking the reigns from C4L, there is a home for them. But if the goal is to include even a little something for the community, this is the run, no question. Again, if there are already a couple titles in mind, then people will move on, 2015 will still be a success, and they'll be rewarded 4 months later. FFT at AGDQ, however, is more opportunity than risk, honestly. It definitely deserves 1st round at least.
I can understand if there are one or two specific RPG's that Mike has in mind for this year, and simply can't factor in 5 hours for FFT. That is a legitimate reality, and worst-case scenario, FFT is at least on the radar. BUT...
I'm having a hard time finding another Marathon-friendly RPG title that the community can get behind even remotely as much as FFT right now (sorry Dreamboum!) I've been involved in two separate RPG-only marathons, and I can say Claude's commentary is the best I've ever heard, and should be the benchmark for others to follow. As someone who knows that value for a longer run, that last point can't be stressed enough...
I know RPG's usually aren't strong at GDQ's, and with Limit Break taking the reigns from C4L, there is a home for them. But if the goal is to include even a little something for the community, this is the run, no question. Again, if there are already a couple titles in mind, then people will move on, 2015 will still be a success, and they'll be rewarded 4 months later. FFT at AGDQ, however, is more opportunity than risk, honestly. It definitely deserves 1st round at least.
spread the dirt to the populace
as someone who isn't overly attached one way or the other re: FFT, i'm finding the "pro" arguments stronger atm. the "people aren't attached to the generics" line seems especially off-base to me, considering their names will be mentioned on stream a bunch of times throughout the run. that sounds like something people would donate for!
i WILL say, though, that i absolutely hate "look at who's supporting FFT" as an argument. this community can trend toward some peculiar tastes that don't translate to the general public - hell, even i never got the appeal of a week of garfield! this obviously isn't a "memegame", but i just don't think a game/runner's popularity within the core scene has much value for an event like this, especially for a game this long. i don't want to see borderline game choices come down to which runner becomes the cause celebre of the year.
i think FFT works on its own merits and the merits of its runner to a large audience. just stick with that, imo
i WILL say, though, that i absolutely hate "look at who's supporting FFT" as an argument. this community can trend toward some peculiar tastes that don't translate to the general public - hell, even i never got the appeal of a week of garfield! this obviously isn't a "memegame", but i just don't think a game/runner's popularity within the core scene has much value for an event like this, especially for a game this long. i don't want to see borderline game choices come down to which runner becomes the cause celebre of the year.
i think FFT works on its own merits and the merits of its runner to a large audience. just stick with that, imo
Quote from Josh the Funkdoc:
i WILL say, though, that i absolutely hate "look at who's supporting FFT" as an argument. this community can trend toward some peculiar tastes that don't translate to the general public - hell, even i never got the appeal of a week of garfield! this obviously isn't a "memegame", but i just don't think a game/runner's popularity within the core scene has much value for an event like this, especially for a game this long. i don't want to see borderline game choices come down to which runner becomes the cause celebre of the year.
i think FFT works on its own merits and the merits of its runner to a large audience. just stick with that, imo
i think FFT works on its own merits and the merits of its runner to a large audience. just stick with that, imo
While I totally get where you're coming from and definitely agree with your idea to a certain extent, the main idea I'm trying to drive by is it's not just a few notable names that are voicing their support, there is a huge voice of support coming from ALL facets of the speed running community that are coming out in support of the run, I just pulled the first few names I could think of. It's the totality of support that is why I said what I said.
spread the dirt to the populace
Quote from Garrison:
There is a big difference between cases like AWOG and FFT, that aside the point was more "here's some 'notable' people who don't like rpg speedruns who made an effort to vouch for the game".
i certainly understand that, and realize that crowd atmosphere for this run will be an important point in its favor.
but for whatever it's worth: if i were in mike's spot right now, my $10,000 question would be "does everyone really enjoy watching the run of this game, or are they just doing this because they're buddies with claude?" i like to play it safe and figure others would be this skeptical, so i shy away from anything remotely circlejerky when making a case. idk