Advice on building a gaming machine?

2013-03-07 02:48:52 am

I'm thinking about selling my MacBook Pro to my brother and using the money to get a PC gaming desktop (in the $1000 - $1500 range, with monitor). My preliminary research indicates that building it myself would be most efficient. If anyone has done this recently and could share what they got, or has general advice about it, I'd appreciate it.

Thread title:

Mystery

Edit history:

Mystery: 2013-03-07 06:13:38 am

2013-03-07 06:11:46 am

A few general punters:

- Go with an AMD processor. Will save you much needed money for the graphics card. A dual core is usually enough, but you might get a quad core to be sure (check benchmarks for your favourite games). Also remember that for newer bulldozer cpus, the number of cores is misleading. The actual core count should be number of cores / 2. So if you need quad core, get 8 cores, and so on. I don't know what the architectures are called, though.
- Get 8 GB of DDR3 RAM or more.
- Get a small flash drive. Around 64 GB should do fine unless you are installing a ton of big applications. For example, I have 20 GB for Windows, 21 GB for programs and 4.5 GB for various program data. Look for as high IOPS (IO operations per second) as possible. That is really where SSDs shine.
- Get a big SATA hard drive for the games. Prioritize space over rotation speed. 5400 RPM is typically okay.
- Check the size of the hard drives and SSDs. They tend to be 3.5 or 2.5 inch. You should make sure they fit in your computer case.
- Get the fastest GPU your money can get you. Check benchmarks. It doesn't matter if it's AMD or nVidia.
- Don't skimp on the motherboard. Be sure to look for reviews to make sure it's high quality. The motherboard can destroy everything. Also make sure it has the proper interfaces. It must have at least one PCI Express slot (probably Pci Express x16). More slots are good for expansion cards, but they typically don't play a role in gaming. It should have SATA (SATA 3 or SATA 6 Gb/s I think). It must support DDR3 and have socket AM3 (for AMD CPU).
- You need a good PSU. Again, check reviews because this is really important. It must be able to feed your hungry graphics card and system, and if something goes wrong with the PSU, chances are the rest of your equipment will break, too. So don't be cheap here! You might find some good gaming PSUs out there.
- The case, obviously. You need somewhere to house your computer. This is mostly to your liking, but make sure it has place for, say, 2-3 120 mm fans. You need to cool your computer and you don't want it to be too loud. It should support the ATX or mini-atx standard. This relates to the size of your motherboard, so make sure they match. Otherwise it won't fit in the case!
- Get a cooler for your cpu. These aftermarket coolers tend to be big, so make sure there is enough space around the cpu (check the motherboard reviews)!
- Make sure there is enough room behind the PCI Express slot. Modern graphics cards tend to be big. So check reviews to make sure they don't obscure what's behind them!
- Modern graphics cards tend to take up two slots, so make sure there's room for them. Check motherboard reviews!

I can't think of anymore right now. But maybe this should get you started.
It's not so easy for a beginner, so good luck and check back if you need advice!

A few general punters:

- Go with an AMD processor. Will save you much needed money for the graphics card. A dual core is usually enough, but you might get a quad core to be sure (check benchmarks for your favourite games). Also remember that for newer bulldozer cpus, the number of cores is misleading. The actual core count should be number of cores / 2. So if you need quad core, get 8 cores, and so on. I don't know what the architectures are called, though.
- Get 8 GB of DDR3 RAM or more.
- Get a small flash drive. Around 64 GB should do fine unless you are installing a ton of big applications. For example, I have 20 GB for Windows, 21 GB for programs and 4.5 GB for various program data. Look for as high IOPS (IO operations per second) as possible. That is really where SSDs shine.
- Get a big SATA hard drive for the games. Prioritize space over rotation speed. 5400 RPM is typically okay.
- Check the size of the hard drives and SSDs. They tend to be 3.5 or 2.5 inch. You should make sure they fit in your computer case.
- Get the fastest GPU your money can get you. Check benchmarks. It doesn't matter if it's AMD or nVidia.
- Don't skimp on the motherboard. Be sure to look for reviews to make sure it's high quality. The motherboard can destroy everything. Also make sure it has the proper interfaces. It must have at least one PCI Express slot (probably Pci Express x16). More slots are good for expansion cards, but they typically don't play a role in gaming. It should have SATA (SATA 3 or SATA 6 Gb/s I think). It must support DDR3 and have socket AM3 (for AMD CPU).
- You need a good PSU. Again, check reviews because this is really important. It must be able to feed your hungry graphics card and system, and if something goes wrong with the PSU, chances are the rest of your equipment will break, too. So don't be cheap here! You might find some good gaming PSUs out there.
- The case, obviously. You need somewhere to house your computer. This is mostly to your liking, but make sure it has place for, say, 2-3 120 mm fans. You need to cool your computer and you don't want it to be too loud. It should support the ATX or mini-atx standard. This relates to the size of your motherboard, so make sure they match. Otherwise it won't fit in the case!
- Get a cooler for your cpu. These aftermarket coolers tend to be big, so make sure there is enough space around the cpu (check the motherboard reviews)!
- Make sure there is enough room behind the PCI Express slot. Modern graphics cards tend to be big. So check reviews to make sure they don't obscure what's behind them!
- Modern graphics cards tend to take up two slots, so make sure there's room for them. Check motherboard reviews!

I can't think of anymore right now. But maybe this should get you started.
It's not so easy for a beginner, so good luck and check back if you need advice!

oasiz

2013-03-07 08:05:47 am

Iha paska

Sorry but I have to disagree with some of the above.

A 64GB SSD is nothing these days. I wouldn't really recommend anything less than 128GB when using anything past windows XP.
A low size and you will end up doing maintenance after every install manually since applications still leave their crap on the C drive (user settings, etc..).
I currently have a 300GB array as a system drive and windows dir + users dir takes a combined 30GB, that's already 10% for stuff that aren't installs !
Would be a bit pointless to get an SSD just for booting windows, something you only do once as most of the system stuff would run from RAM with the new system Smiley

You can get an i5 or i7, no reason to go for AMD since your price tag already allows even i7s to enter the shopping list. AMD was ok back in 2003 but they have lost the performance race ever since core2 architechture rolled out. They do have some nice price/performance stuff but only in the mid-end/lowend category. For gaming PCs, intel is a good choice. 3770K or 3570K, both are really good overclockers as well so with some really small effort you can save 100e by just overclocking the i5 to the i7 level (The OC is really really easy and motherboards provide one-button-OC'ing, no risk with overclocking nowdays). If I had to decide, I would get one of those.
If you want to save money, you can probably find cheap used 2500K / 2600K Cpus (just bought a 2500K for 180e). And they are still really powerful CPUs for any gaming purposes, my both 2500K and 2600K run at 4.2GHz and there have been zero issues so far.

8GB or more, I second that. DDR3 is really cheap and any windows since vista knows how to cache the most frequently applications/files to the RAM to speed up the general use by a huge amount.
For this you can get generic DDR3, don't buy the hype about space station anti-matter cooled RAM that runs at 5% higher clock speeds, the RAM speed doesn't really impact your performance unless you overclock :p
Just get typical kingston 1333/1600MHz DDR3 sticks, I filled mine with 4x4GB.

GPUs like CPUs drop too fast in value, I wouldn't get anything past 350-400 euros for either. Something that costs about 700-800 euros will only be around 60% of it's value after a year or two, not a good investment.
Instead of spending loads on GPU or CPU at once, get something with the best price/performance ratio every few years and you can constantly get incremental upgrades, something you can't do with laptops.
You can even sell your old parts for some small extra to help you get new parts.
Something like a GTX660Ti or similar should be fine.

5400RPM? 7200RPM drives are about as cheap and do just fine. No reason to go for a low power HTPC-oriented drive for bulk storage. Although either will do fine.

Otherwise mostly what the above post said, as long as you stick to ATX/mATX motherboard and a typical ATX case, you don't have to worry about measurements that much.
Post your shopping cart once you have decided on what to get Smiley

Sorry but I have to disagree with some of the above.

A 64GB SSD is nothing these days. I wouldn't really recommend anything less than 128GB when using anything past windows XP.
A low size and you will end up doing maintenance after every install manually since applications still leave their crap on the C drive (user settings, etc..).
I currently have a 300GB array as a system drive and windows dir + users dir takes a combined 30GB, that's already 10% for stuff that aren't installs !
Would be a bit pointless to get an SSD just for booting windows, something you only do once as most of the system stuff would run from RAM with the new system :)

You can get an i5 or i7, no reason to go for AMD since your price tag already allows even i7s to enter the shopping list. AMD was ok back in 2003 but they have lost the performance race ever since core2 architechture rolled out. They do have some nice price/performance stuff but only in the mid-end/lowend category. For gaming PCs, intel is a good choice. 3770K or 3570K, both are really good overclockers as well so with some really small effort you can save 100e by just overclocking the i5 to the i7 level (The OC is really really easy and motherboards provide one-button-OC'ing, no risk with overclocking nowdays). If I had to decide, I would get one of those.
If you want to save money, you can probably find cheap used 2500K / 2600K Cpus (just bought a 2500K for 180e). And they are still really powerful CPUs for any gaming purposes, my both 2500K and 2600K run at 4.2GHz and there have been zero issues so far.

8GB or more, I second that. DDR3 is really cheap and any windows since vista knows how to cache the most frequently applications/files to the RAM to speed up the general use by a huge amount.
For this you can get generic DDR3, don't buy the hype about space station anti-matter cooled RAM that runs at 5% higher clock speeds, the RAM speed doesn't really impact your performance unless you overclock :p
Just get typical kingston 1333/1600MHz DDR3 sticks, I filled mine with 4x4GB.

GPUs like CPUs drop too fast in value, I wouldn't get anything past 350-400 euros for either. Something that costs about 700-800 euros will only be around 60% of it's value after a year or two, not a good investment.
Instead of spending loads on GPU or CPU at once, get something with the best price/performance ratio every few years and you can constantly get incremental upgrades, something you can't do with laptops.
You can even sell your old parts for some small extra to help you get new parts.
Something like a GTX660Ti or similar should be fine.

5400RPM? 7200RPM drives are about as cheap and do just fine. No reason to go for a low power HTPC-oriented drive for bulk storage. Although either will do fine.

Otherwise mostly what the above post said, as long as you stick to ATX/mATX motherboard and a typical ATX case, you don't have to worry about measurements that much.
Post your shopping cart once you have decided on what to get :)

Mystery

2013-03-07 08:15:39 am

I love when people disagree since it tends to start a discussion! Smiley

Quote from oasiz:

A 64GB SSD is nothing these days. I wouldn't really recommend anything less than 128GB when using anything past windows XP.
A low size and you will end up doing maintenance after every install manually since applications still leave their crap on the C drive (user settings, etc..).
I currently have a 300GB array as a system drive and windows dir + users dir takes a combined 30GB, that's already 10% for stuff that aren't installs !
Would be a bit pointless to get an SSD just for booting windows, something you only do once as most of the system stuff would run from RAM with the new system Smiley

Well, it obviously depends on how you use the system, but if you keep all non-program stuff off the system drive, you can get away with 64 GB pretty much.
Remember that stuff like video, music, pictures and stuff can easily be moved to a non-system drive (and should) since they benefit little from the improved IOPS of an SSD.
I suppose a good advice might be to check how much your system drive takes now, but move all unnecessary stuff off it first. That should help you know how much you need.

Quote:

You can get an i5 or i7, no reason to go for AMD since your price tag already allows even i7s to enter the shopping list. AMD was ok back in 2003 but they have lost the performance race ever since core2 architechture rolled out. They do have some nice price/performance stuff but only in the mid-end/lowend category. For gaming PCs, intel is a good choice. 3770K or 3570K, both are really good overclockers as well so with some really small effort you can save 100e by just overclocking the i5 to the i7 level (The OC is really really easy and motherboards provide one-button-OC'ing, no risk with overclocking nowdays). If I had to decide, I would get one of those.
If you want to save money, you can probably find cheap used 2500K / 2600K Cpus (just bought a 2500K for 180e). And they are still really powerful CPUs for any gaming purposes, my both 2500K and 2600K run at 4.2GHz and there have been zero issues so far.

Yes, Intel cpus beat AMDs right now. But AMDs are just fine for gaming. They aren't as critical as the GPU, and if you can get them for cheaper, and have a more stable upgrade path, then why not?
Intel isn't exactly known for having much backwards compatibility with CPUs while AMD is.

Quote:

5400RPM? 7200RPM drives are about as cheap and do just fine. No reason to go for a low power HTPC-oriented drive for bulk storage. Although either will do fine.

Wasn't exactly thinking of low power. All I meant to mean was that it doesn't matter so much if it's 5400 or 7200 rpm. Since it's mostly bulk storage and the bandwidth is great anyway, you can get away with 5400 if it gets you bigger storage. If you find a great deal with 7200, then that's fine too. Just don't go requiring 7200 if you can get a better deal with 5400.

I love when people disagree since it tends to start a discussion! :)

[quote="oasiz"]A 64GB SSD is nothing these days. I wouldn't really recommend anything less than 128GB when using anything past windows XP.
A low size and you will end up doing maintenance after every install manually since applications still leave their crap on the C drive (user settings, etc..).
I currently have a 300GB array as a system drive and windows dir + users dir takes a combined 30GB, that's already 10% for stuff that aren't installs !
Would be a bit pointless to get an SSD just for booting windows, something you only do once as most of the system stuff would run from RAM with the new system :)[/quote]
Well, it obviously depends on how you use the system, but if you keep all non-program stuff off the system drive, you can get away with 64 GB pretty much.
Remember that stuff like video, music, pictures and stuff can easily be moved to a non-system drive (and should) since they benefit little from the improved IOPS of an SSD.
I suppose a good advice might be to check how much your system drive takes now, but move all unnecessary stuff off it first. That should help you know how much you need.

[quote]You can get an i5 or i7, no reason to go for AMD since your price tag already allows even i7s to enter the shopping list. AMD was ok back in 2003 but they have lost the performance race ever since core2 architechture rolled out. They do have some nice price/performance stuff but only in the mid-end/lowend category. For gaming PCs, intel is a good choice. 3770K or 3570K, both are really good overclockers as well so with some really small effort you can save 100e by just overclocking the i5 to the i7 level (The OC is really really easy and motherboards provide one-button-OC'ing, no risk with overclocking nowdays). If I had to decide, I would get one of those.
If you want to save money, you can probably find cheap used 2500K / 2600K Cpus (just bought a 2500K for 180e). And they are still really powerful CPUs for any gaming purposes, my both 2500K and 2600K run at 4.2GHz and there have been zero issues so far.[/quote]
Yes, Intel cpus beat AMDs right now. But AMDs are just fine for gaming. They aren't as critical as the GPU, and if you can get them for cheaper, and have a more stable upgrade path, then why not?
Intel isn't exactly known for having much backwards compatibility with CPUs while AMD is.

[quote]5400RPM? 7200RPM drives are about as cheap and do just fine. No reason to go for a low power HTPC-oriented drive for bulk storage. Although either will do fine.[/quote]
Wasn't exactly thinking of low power. All I meant to mean was that it doesn't matter so much if it's 5400 or 7200 rpm. Since it's mostly bulk storage and the bandwidth is great anyway, you can get away with 5400 if it gets you bigger storage. If you find a great deal with 7200, then that's fine too. Just don't go requiring 7200 if you can get a better deal with 5400.

oasiz

2013-03-07 08:47:08 am

Iha paska

Again, I store nothing except installs on my system drive. Everything else is networked elsewhere (aside from the profile dir). Games take 10-15GB nowdays to install so you can have a game or two at most on top of a system install with updates and such (say.. 2-3 months of typical use). 64GB is not enough unless you use a laptop with no games other than maybe around or two of quake3 arena now and then. A base install of windows with some applications along it will already eat 50% of that space. And a slower 5400rpm drive to load installs from? Doesn't make much sense. All the advantage in fast loading with games will be gone, some games really benefit from the extra speed of SSDs. going to 128 or 256 GB isn't that huge of a difference, 150-200 euros gets you a fast 256GB SSD which is four times the storage, this way you can install games that take loads of space as well. Judging from the price tag from the OP, a 100-200 euro SSD is very realistic.
With windows XP you could get a guarranteed sub 15GB that includes an updated system + common apps (flash, pdf reader, etc..) but nowdays a fresh install is already that large.
Not to mention that you have to constantly tweak everything manually if you can't use C drive at all (hibernation file, user profile directory, downloads, default paths for all programs etc..)

And AMD isn't really the best when it comes to upgrade paths either, they do release new motherboards with backwards compatible sockets but not many are guaranteed to be forwards compatible (AM2, AM2+, AM3, AM3+ etc..).
Judging from the price tag, intel would offer better price/performance. If you sell a motherboard + CPU combo then it's very likely easier to market for other people who are considering an upgrade.

Anyway, I'd much rather talk in PM about this stuff rather than pollute the thread further :p

Again, I store nothing except installs on my system drive. Everything else is networked elsewhere (aside from the profile dir). Games take 10-15GB nowdays to install so you can have a game or two at most on top of a system install with updates and such (say.. 2-3 months of typical use). 64GB is not enough unless you use a laptop with no games other than maybe around or two of quake3 arena now and then. A base install of windows with some applications along it will already eat 50% of that space. And a slower 5400rpm drive to load installs from? Doesn't make much sense. All the advantage in fast loading with games will be gone, some games really benefit from the extra speed of SSDs. going to 128 or 256 GB isn't that huge of a difference, 150-200 euros gets you a fast 256GB SSD which is four times the storage, this way you can install games that take loads of space as well. Judging from the price tag from the OP, a 100-200 euro SSD is very realistic.
With windows XP you could get a guarranteed sub 15GB that includes an updated system + common apps (flash, pdf reader, etc..) but nowdays a fresh install is already that large.
Not to mention that you have to constantly tweak everything manually if you can't use C drive at all (hibernation file, user profile directory, downloads, default paths for all programs etc..)

And AMD isn't really the best when it comes to upgrade paths either, they do release new motherboards with backwards compatible sockets but not many are guaranteed to be forwards compatible (AM2, AM2+, AM3, AM3+ etc..).
Judging from the price tag, intel would offer better price/performance. If you sell a motherboard + CPU combo then it's very likely easier to market for other people who are considering an upgrade.

Anyway, I'd much rather talk in PM about this stuff rather than pollute the thread further :p

Mystery

2013-03-07 08:54:21 am

Quote from oasiz:

Again, I store nothing except installs on my system drive. Everything else is networked elsewhere (aside from the profile dir). Games take 10-15GB nowdays to install so you can have a game or two at most on top of a system install with updates and such (say.. 2-3 months of typical use). 64GB is not enough unless you use a laptop with no games other than maybe around or two of quake3 arena now and then. A base install of windows with some applications along it will already eat 50% of that space. And a slower 5400rpm drive to load installs from? Doesn't make much sense. All the advantage in fast loading with games will be gone, some games really benefit from the extra speed of SSDs. going to 128 or 256 GB isn't that huge of a difference, 150-200 euros gets you a fast 256GB SSD which is four times the storage, this way you can install games that take loads of space as well. Judging from the price tag from the OP, a 100-200 euro SSD is very realistic.
With windows XP you could get a guarranteed sub 15GB that includes an updated system + common apps (flash, pdf reader, etc..) but nowdays a fresh install is already that large.
Not to mention that you have to constantly tweak everything manually if you can't use C drive at all (hibernation file, user profile directory, downloads, default paths for all programs etc..)

But this is a desktop we're talking about. Having two drives is just common sense here. One SSD + one HDD.
So you definitely store all your games on the HDD. If you really want to store the games on the SSD, then yes, you need a bigger one. But you really have to pay the difference, too. In my experience, it just isn't worth it having it on an SSD, due to the extra cost and the (still) long loading times.

Quote:

And AMD isn't really the best when it comes to upgrade paths either, they do release new motherboards with backwards compatible sockets but not many are guaranteed to be forwards compatible (AM2, AM2+, AM3, AM3+ etc..).
Judging from the price tag, intel would offer better price/performance. If you sell a motherboard + CPU combo then it's very likely easier to market for other people who are considering an upgrade.

The CPUs are generally backwards compatible, too.
Again, yes, Intel may be better, but that extra money is better spent on the GPU for gaming. Having a top of the line CPU will not likely matter so much as a GPU of the same.

Quote:

Anyway, I'd much rather talk in PM about this stuff rather than pollute the thread further :p

I would disagree with this statement.
It means others cannot see the discussion and offer advice and others (such as the OP) cannot learn from the experience of other people.
I would rather take the advice of many before the advice of one. The OP can pick out what he/she senses is more reasonable for him/her. All we do is provide advice from our experience/view.

[quote="oasiz"]Again, I store nothing except installs on my system drive. Everything else is networked elsewhere (aside from the profile dir). Games take 10-15GB nowdays to install so you can have a game or two at most on top of a system install with updates and such (say.. 2-3 months of typical use). 64GB is not enough unless you use a laptop with no games other than maybe around or two of quake3 arena now and then. A base install of windows with some applications along it will already eat 50% of that space. And a slower 5400rpm drive to load installs from? Doesn't make much sense. All the advantage in fast loading with games will be gone, some games really benefit from the extra speed of SSDs. going to 128 or 256 GB isn't that huge of a difference, 150-200 euros gets you a fast 256GB SSD which is four times the storage, this way you can install games that take loads of space as well. Judging from the price tag from the OP, a 100-200 euro SSD is very realistic.
With windows XP you could get a guarranteed sub 15GB that includes an updated system + common apps (flash, pdf reader, etc..) but nowdays a fresh install is already that large.
Not to mention that you have to constantly tweak everything manually if you can't use C drive at all (hibernation file, user profile directory, downloads, default paths for all programs etc..)[/quote]
But this is a desktop we're talking about. Having two drives is just common sense here. One SSD + one HDD.
So you definitely store all your games on the HDD. If you really want to store the games on the SSD, then yes, you need a bigger one. But you really have to pay the difference, too. In my experience, it just isn't worth it having it on an SSD, due to the extra cost and the (still) long loading times.

[quote]And AMD isn't really the best when it comes to upgrade paths either, they do release new motherboards with backwards compatible sockets but not many are guaranteed to be forwards compatible (AM2, AM2+, AM3, AM3+ etc..).
Judging from the price tag, intel would offer better price/performance. If you sell a motherboard + CPU combo then it's very likely easier to market for other people who are considering an upgrade.[/quote]
The CPUs are generally backwards compatible, too.
Again, yes, Intel may be better, but that extra money is better spent on the GPU for gaming. Having a top of the line CPU will not likely matter so much as a GPU of the same.

[quote]Anyway, I'd much rather talk in PM about this stuff rather than pollute the thread further :p[/quote]
I would disagree with this statement.
It means others cannot see the discussion and offer advice and others (such as the OP) cannot learn from the experience of other people.
I would rather take the advice of many before the advice of one. The OP can pick out what he/she senses is more reasonable for him/her. All we do is provide advice from our experience/view.

Brettatron

2013-03-07 09:42:59 am

I was going to throw in my two cents but this conversation... not sure I want to get into it. Its lolzy.

I will say, if all you are doing with your computer is gaming... you dont need the $1000 price tag. You can easily build a machine that will handle all of todays games for sub $1000. An i7 is overkill.

I would like to direct you to my personal favorite resource for building computers:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137554

Go to the first post, answer all the questions, and someone will help you get exactly what you are looking for, at the best price. THese guys are incredibly knowledgable and I'd trust them 100%

oasiz

2013-03-07 11:47:34 pm

Iha paska

I agree, sub $1000 is very easy to get. An i5 will handle any game out there just fine.
Plus going with cheaper parts allows you to upgrade later on, so you always stay up to date.
Seems that that thread has tons of good info, good link.

recon

2013-03-08 01:40:00 am

Enjoying this thread for future reference, but I have a query about something I read on Brettatron's link. It says under RAM that 4 GB ram is sufficient for most setups unless you use much Photoshop etc. Is that really true? It seems that most laptops nowadays come with 6 GB or even 8 GB, and probably not without reason, I would think. Isn't it good to have more RAM if you have lots of programs open and want stability?

Sub_Z

2013-03-08 03:48:55 am

The KBMOD website posts monthly build guides for $500 - 1800 or so. It shouldn't be too hard to follow, and the guy writing the guide knows his stuff.

Mystery

2013-03-08 06:19:32 am

Quote from recon:

Enjoying this thread for future reference, but I have a query about something I read on Brettatron's link. It says under RAM that 4 GB ram is sufficient for most setups unless you use much Photoshop etc. Is that really true? It seems that most laptops nowadays come with 6 GB or even 8 GB, and probably not without reason, I would think. Isn't it good to have more RAM if you have lots of programs open and want stability?

I wouldn't really recommend anything under 6-8 GB considering a game may use 1-2 GB of ram any you WANT the game to be able to use as much as it needs.
So with 4 GB, even if you are at ~2 GB use, it's pretty close to the point where things start paging out, and you don't want that.
Ideally, you want enough RAM so you can turn off the page file.
Besides, RAM is very cheap these days. 8 GB will go for around $50 or so.

Brettatron

Edit history:

Brettatron: 2013-03-08 11:12:43 am

2013-03-08 08:47:38 am

RAM IS really cheap so if you want, go ahead and get more. Thing is, if you are on 32 bit windows (why are you on 32 bit windows?!) you cant USE more than 4 GB. I rock 4 GB on 64 bit, and I have never had a problem with it. For the most part I don't think you will notice much of a difference with more than 4 GB unless you do things like PS or rendering etc etc etc. But like Mystery said, its so cheap these days, why the hell not?

Edit: Might be worth mentioning. I'm talking about Windows 7. I have no fricken clue what Windows 8 does. I am not a fan of that OS.

Zyre

2013-03-08 10:17:22 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

Thanks for the reminder that I need to use 64-bit Windows! Now I need to re-plan my next gaming machine. I KNEW that there was something that I was missing...

Mystery

2013-03-08 11:31:50 am

Quote from Brettatron:

Edit: Might be worth mentioning. I'm talking about Windows 7. I have no fricken clue what Windows 8 does. I am not a fan of that OS.

What part? Being able to use more than 4 GB RAM or need more memory?
To be able to use more than 4 GB RAM, you need a 64-bit machine. It's a hardware issue, so no OS is going to solve that.
Dunno about performance with Windows 8, though.

Brettatron

2013-03-08 11:34:09 am

I was talking about performance. I know its a hardware issue =)

Kiyura

Edit history:

Kiyura: 2013-03-08 12:17:19 pm

Kiyura: 2013-03-08 12:15:26 pm

Kiyura: 2013-03-08 12:12:23 pm

Kiyura: 2013-03-08 12:10:55 pm

Kiyura: 2013-03-08 12:09:39 pm

Kiyura: 2013-03-08 12:09:15 pm

2013-03-08 12:08:15 pm

Wiiaboo

You really can't go wrong with most of the hardware suggestions and tips here: http://www.hardware-revolution.com/

Also, definitely go with Windows 8. It is much better than Windows 7 in terms of performance, and the usability issues (if they are issues at all) are made way too big a deal of.

You definitely want more than 4gb RAM. 8gb minimum. No excuse with this budget; that's one of the cheapest upgrades.

As for i5 vs. i7, just about the only thing i7 adds is hyper-threading, which doesn't affect most tasks and particularly not gaming. (You're much more likely to bottleneck at the graphics card, anyway.) Go for the beefiest i5 you're willing to fit into your budget. I recommend the 3570K.

And *definitely* try to fit in a good SSD. It makes a huge difference in performance. I don't know why some in this thread are recommending to put games on HDD, since OS and game loading is going to be the most noticeable performance increase by using an SSD. Perhaps if you need to save space for HD recording or such, but otherwise go wild and fill your SSD up with OS and programs. Save the HDD for media and backups.

You really can't go wrong with most of the hardware suggestions and tips here: http://www.hardware-revolution.com/

Also, definitely go with Windows 8. It is much better than Windows 7 in terms of performance, and the usability issues (if they are issues at all) are made way too big a deal of.

You definitely want more than 4gb RAM. 8gb minimum. No excuse with this budget; that's one of the cheapest upgrades.

As for i5 vs. i7, just about the only thing i7 adds is hyper-threading, which doesn't affect most tasks and particularly not gaming. (You're much more likely to bottleneck at the graphics card, anyway.) Go for the beefiest i5 you're willing to fit into your budget. I recommend the 3570K.

And *definitely* try to fit in a good SSD. It makes a huge difference in performance. I don't know why some in this thread are recommending to put games on HDD, since OS and game loading is going to be the most noticeable performance increase by using an SSD. Perhaps if you need to save space for HD recording or such, but otherwise go wild and fill your SSD up with OS and programs. Save the HDD for media and backups.

Brettatron

Edit history:

Brettatron: 2013-03-08 12:31:59 pm

2013-03-08 12:23:23 pm

Alright Im bored at work and don't feel like... you know... working. So I'm going to throw my 2 cents in there even though I said I didn't want to. These points are in the same order as mystery's, and in come cases, in response to his points.

- AMD Bulldozers don't perform. They don't. (source: I have one) Almost everyone agrees with this. I am kinda surprised that Mystery suggested them. I would definitely go with an unlocked Ivy Bridge i5. The i5 provides all the processing power you need for the current gen of games, and being unlocked you can OC it, to push it that little bit further in a few years if you start feeling games and applications are being bottlenecked by the CPU. OCing with the intel processors are insanely easy these days. Even if you don't want to OC (I can understand, but it IS very easy) the i5 is a great price point for what (I think) you want.

- I've already touched on RAM. Get 8 if you want, its cheap as chips.

- 100% agree with have an SSD and a HDD. I'd say 128 gb SSD, especially if you've got the budget (which seems like you do). You put your OS on there, and things like games, or other stuff where you find yourself waiting for the application to load. Keep in mind that SSD read times out perform HDD drives by a bajillion (hyperbole), but write times (depending on the gen) are similar or even slower. You can do just fine with 64 GB, but I know I'm over that already on mine, and plenty of people I talk to say you'll regret it if you do.

- HDD drive space: Big is relative. Some people never come close to 1 TB. But if you download lots of movies and music, then you may even need 2 TB. I have 600 GB and am about 3/4 full. I agree with oasiz about getting 7200 RPM though. Just a convenience thing personally, although I see the merit in just getting a 5400 rpm since you DO have a SSD for applications.

- A good case should have room for both 2.5 in and 3.5 in. But yeah, just be aware.

- Do NOT NOT NOT agree with getting the fastest GPU your money can get you. This is HUGELY dependent on your games, prefered resolution and upgrade cycle. There are so many people who overkill on their GPU who play at 1280x1024. Or only play games like SC2 and WoW which are primarily CPU dependent. I really don't want to make suggestions till I know a little more about you're intended use for this computer. Still, jsut because you could afford a Titan doesnt mean you should buy a Titan. Its a terrible performance/price ratio. Also... I don't recommend crossfire or SLI because it is also cost inneficient unless you REALLY want to be bleeding edge.

- Agreed about the mobo. Get a compatible one. If you go with an intel CPU, you need a LGA 1155 chipset... unless you go with an LGA 2011 cpu which is silly... dont do it. I would also recommend USB 3.0 compatability in addition to what Mystery suggested. I have an mATX board and it works for me, but sometimes I wish I had an ATX board because LOL IM OUT OF EXPANSION SLOTS! (GPU covers one, cap card takes up the remaining. Dont really NEEEEED another one, but just in case you know?)

- Definitely need a good PSU. Dont skimp. Usually 400w to 450w will do you (GPU power requirements are misleading). If you OC or run aftermarket cooling you will need more.

- Good case is good.

- I don't think additional cooling is required if you arent Overclocking much. Generally stock cooling in a good case will do you just fine.

Also for reference, here is my build. I did it 2 years ago now, and have since only upgraded by buying a cap card (Live gamer HD) and an SSD (intel something or another... 128 GB). Still, 2 years later, not a problem with it. Dont feel bogged down or anything. (I'm making this list by memory so it isnt terribly specific... but you should get an idea).

CPU: Intel Core i5 2400 (dunno what I was thinking.. should ahve got a 2500k. Only real regret with this build)
Mobo: Asrock h67m
GPU: MSI GTX 560 TI (Was a GREAT card for its generation)
RAM: 2x2 GB Mushkin something or other DDR3 blah blah blah
PSU: cant remember the brand... 450w though.
HDD: I want to say its a WD Caviar black 600 gb 7200 rpm? Something like that.
Optical drive: lol (these things are all the same and about $20)
Case: HAF some number. I want to say 902? Something like that. Anyways, HAF stand for High Air Flow... its got high air flow to keep things cool. Plenty of fan mounts if you want to add more. (I didnt).

Alright Im bored at work and don't feel like... you know... working. So I'm going to throw my 2 cents in there even though I said I didn't want to. These points are in the same order as mystery's, and in come cases, in response to his points.

- AMD Bulldozers don't perform. They don't. (source: I have one) Almost everyone agrees with this. I am kinda surprised that Mystery suggested them. I would definitely go with an unlocked Ivy Bridge i5. The i5 provides all the processing power you need for the current gen of games, and being unlocked you can OC it, to push it that little bit further in a few years if you start feeling games and applications are being bottlenecked by the CPU. OCing with the intel processors are insanely easy these days. Even if you don't want to OC (I can understand, but it IS very easy) the i5 is a great price point for what (I think) you want.

- I've already touched on RAM. Get 8 if you want, its cheap as chips.

- 100% agree with have an SSD and a HDD. I'd say 128 gb SSD, especially if you've got the budget (which seems like you do). You put your OS on there, and things like games, or other stuff where you find yourself waiting for the application to load. Keep in mind that SSD read times out perform HDD drives by a bajillion (hyperbole), but write times (depending on the gen) are similar or even slower. You can do just fine with 64 GB, but I know I'm over that already on mine, and plenty of people I talk to say you'll regret it if you do.

- HDD drive space: Big is relative. Some people never come close to 1 TB. But if you download lots of movies and music, then you may even need 2 TB. I have 600 GB and am about 3/4 full. I agree with oasiz about getting 7200 RPM though. Just a convenience thing personally, although I see the merit in just getting a 5400 rpm since you DO have a SSD for applications.

- A good case should have room for both 2.5 in and 3.5 in. But yeah, just be aware.

- Do NOT NOT NOT agree with getting the fastest GPU your money can get you. This is HUGELY dependent on your games, prefered resolution and upgrade cycle. There are so many people who overkill on their GPU who play at 1280x1024. Or only play games like SC2 and WoW which are primarily CPU dependent. I really don't want to make suggestions till I know a little more about you're intended use for this computer. Still, jsut because you could afford a Titan doesnt mean you should buy a Titan. Its a terrible performance/price ratio. Also... I don't recommend crossfire or SLI because it is also cost inneficient unless you REALLY want to be bleeding edge.

- Agreed about the mobo. Get a compatible one. If you go with an intel CPU, you need a LGA 1155 chipset... unless you go with an LGA 2011 cpu which is silly... dont do it. I would also recommend USB 3.0 compatability in addition to what Mystery suggested. I have an mATX board and it works for me, but sometimes I wish I had an ATX board because LOL IM OUT OF EXPANSION SLOTS! (GPU covers one, cap card takes up the remaining. Dont really NEEEEED another one, but just in case you know?)

- Definitely need a good PSU. Dont skimp. Usually 400w to 450w will do you (GPU power requirements are misleading).  If you OC or run aftermarket cooling you will need more.

- Good case is good.

- I don't think additional cooling is required if you arent Overclocking much. Generally stock cooling in a good case will do you just fine.

Also for reference, here is my build. I did it 2 years ago now, and have since only upgraded by buying a cap card (Live gamer HD) and an SSD (intel something or another... 128 GB). Still, 2 years later, not a problem with it. Dont feel bogged down or anything. (I'm making this list by memory so it isnt terribly specific... but you should get an idea).

CPU: Intel Core i5 2400 (dunno what I was thinking.. should ahve got a 2500k. Only real regret with this build)
Mobo: Asrock h67m
GPU: MSI GTX 560 TI (Was a GREAT card for its generation)
RAM: 2x2 GB Mushkin something or other DDR3 blah blah blah
PSU: cant remember the brand... 450w though.
HDD: I want to say its a WD Caviar black 600 gb 7200 rpm? Something like that.
Optical drive: lol (these things are all the same and about $20)
Case: HAF some number. I want to say 902? Something like that. Anyways, HAF stand for High Air Flow... its got high air flow to keep things cool. Plenty of fan mounts if you want to add more. (I didnt).

Mystery

2013-03-09 06:32:35 am

Quote from Kiyura:

Also, definitely go with Windows 8. It is much better than Windows 7 in terms of performance, and the usability issues (if they are issues at all) are made way too big a deal of.

Be sure to trial is before you really start using it. People have extremely negative feelings about it, and I have too, from experience.

Quote:

And *definitely* try to fit in a good SSD. It makes a huge difference in performance. I don't know why some in this thread are recommending to put games on HDD, since OS and game loading is going to be the most noticeable performance increase by using an SSD. Perhaps if you need to save space for HD recording or such, but otherwise go wild and fill your SSD up with OS and programs. Save the HDD for media and backups.

Since SSDs are really, really expensive. That is why, if you want to keep your budget, you keep your SSD small, which means most games will have to go elsewhere.
It's trade off you have to decide.

Quote from Brettatron:

- AMD Bulldozers don't perform. They don't. (source: I have one) Almost everyone agrees with this. I am kinda surprised that Mystery suggested them. I would definitely go with an unlocked Ivy Bridge i5. The i5 provides all the processing power you need for the current gen of games, and being unlocked you can OC it, to push it that little bit further in a few years if you start feeling games and applications are being bottlenecked by the CPU. OCing with the intel processors are insanely easy these days. Even if you don't want to OC (I can understand, but it IS very easy) the i5 is a great price point for what (I think) you want.

AMD cpus may not perform as well as Intel's, but they are cheaper and they are enough, saving money for other things. Again, a trade off you have to decide.

Quote:

- Do NOT NOT NOT agree with getting the fastest GPU your money can get you. This is HUGELY dependent on your games, prefered resolution and upgrade cycle. There are so many people who overkill on their GPU who play at 1280x1024. Or only play games like SC2 and WoW which are primarily CPU dependent. I really don't want to make suggestions till I know a little more about you're intended use for this computer. Still, jsut because you could afford a Titan doesnt mean you should buy a Titan. Its a terrible performance/price ratio. Also... I don't recommend crossfire or SLI because it is also cost inneficient unless you REALLY want to be bleeding edge.

Eh, I may have been too unspecific. My main goal was basically to save on the cpu and put that towards the GPU you want to get. Remember that GPUs are really, really expensive, so any savings you can put towards that may just help.

[quote="Kiyura"]Also, definitely go with Windows 8. It is much better than Windows 7 in terms of performance, and the usability issues (if they are issues at all) are made way too big a deal of.[/quote]
Be sure to trial is before you really start using it. People have extremely negative feelings about it, and I have too, from experience.

[quote]And *definitely* try to fit in a good SSD. It makes a huge difference in performance. I don't know why some in this thread are recommending to put games on HDD, since OS and game loading is going to be the most noticeable performance increase by using an SSD. Perhaps if you need to save space for HD recording or such, but otherwise go wild and fill your SSD up with OS and programs. Save the HDD for media and backups.[/quote]
Since SSDs are really, really expensive. That is why, if you want to keep your budget, you keep your SSD small, which means most games will have to go elsewhere.
It's trade off you have to decide.

[quote="Brettatron"]- AMD Bulldozers don't perform. They don't. (source: I have one) Almost everyone agrees with this. I am kinda surprised that Mystery suggested them. I would definitely go with an unlocked Ivy Bridge i5. The i5 provides all the processing power you need for the current gen of games, and being unlocked you can OC it, to push it that little bit further in a few years if you start feeling games and applications are being bottlenecked by the CPU. OCing with the intel processors are insanely easy these days. Even if you don't want to OC (I can understand, but it IS very easy) the i5 is a great price point for what (I think) you want.[/quote]
AMD cpus may not perform as well as Intel's, but they are cheaper and they are enough, saving money for other things. Again, a trade off you have to decide.

[quote]- Do NOT NOT NOT agree with getting the fastest GPU your money can get you. This is HUGELY dependent on your games, prefered resolution and upgrade cycle. There are so many people who overkill on their GPU who play at 1280x1024. Or only play games like SC2 and WoW which are primarily CPU dependent. I really don't want to make suggestions till I know a little more about you're intended use for this computer. Still, jsut because you could afford a Titan doesnt mean you should buy a Titan. Its a terrible performance/price ratio. Also... I don't recommend crossfire or SLI because it is also cost inneficient unless you REALLY want to be bleeding edge.[/quote]
Eh, I may have been too unspecific. My main goal was basically to save on the cpu and put that towards the GPU you want to get. Remember that GPUs are really, really expensive, so any savings you can put towards that may just help.

DJS

2013-03-09 06:51:21 am

torch slug since 2006

i just wanna give my 4 cents:

- i use a 60gb ssd and its enough, for me atleast. i have windows, programs, and 1-2 games.

- dont cheap out on the psu. a 500w is plenty unless youre going sli/crossfire. but be sure to get a good brand. like a high-quality 400w is WAY BETTER than a low-quality 800w. i recommend corsair (but not the cx or gs series), or fractal design (not sure if they make psu's in the US though...)

- 8gb ram is way enough imo.

- i personally wouldnt recommend windows 8. i had some issues with it (flash player crashing, stream having very bad performance). but you may like it more than i do...

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2013-03-09 07:28:54 am

2013-03-09 07:28:08 am

Weegee Time

Quote from DJS:

i personally wouldnt recommend windows 8. i had some issues with it (flash player crashing, stream having very bad performance). but you may like it more than i do...

I'd recommend against the first iteration of any OS if you're trying to build a gaming rig. There's always going to be stability, compatibility, and functionality issues straight out of the gate. Wait for an SP1 or equivalent.

MrSparkle

Edit history:

MrSparkle: 2013-03-10 12:21:15 am

2013-03-09 06:58:15 pm

Doin Good

An Ivy Bridge or Haswell i5, the Samsung 830 at 120 GB or 250 GB, 8 or 16 GB of RAM at 1333 or 1600 MT/s, 1TB HDD not from Seagate, a good Nvidia GPU in the $150 to $250 range, and a 400w Seasonic PSU. Nothing should need to go beyond these suggestions, and plenty can go lower to better fit your needs and budget. All that, a good case, and one of Dell's IPS displays should be doable for a grand. Include inputs and an OS, and it will go over.

What games do you have in mind? Nothing like going under budget, and having money for a tablet. I'd bet you could build a system you will be satisfied with for under a thousand...

Skimmed some of the replies, hope you didn't even do that.

gia

2013-03-09 11:47:14 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

make sure you plan your cleaning routine too, buy thermic paste (or whatever its called) and compressed air so you can clean the dust and prevent it from burning your pc, most people buy the rig and forget the maintenance

youll probably want to make videos, perhaps pc speedruns, buy at least a 2tb 7200rpm hard drive exclusively for that, if you want more go ahead your call, but that drive should be enough

about ssds for the os, well the os can fit in 64gb so you dont really need more than that, what you must learn is how to configure your os so all temporary/constant write files go to another drive, its handy for when you visit a friend and know how to config their pc for maximum speed too, you can charge them for it if you arent the giver kind too!

Being pc steam will probably be your main game source, get a 2tb drive for the games, id actually suggest a 7200 drive so load times are faster than with 5400 but whatever.

Learn to create many partitions, you can use all the letters!, C can be your os on the ssd drive, then D for the binaries (programs, eg photoshop or office) on your slow but big drive, E for temporary files (windows' TEMP folder your browser's, default download folder, whatever else) on a fast drive but not ssd because this partition will be write heavy, a gneral data parition, a video storage partition, etc On windows you can change the partition name so you dont have to memorize what each letter contains

about actual hardware, get a good PSU, cooler (even use water if needed, but its a pain in the ass to set up), and at least 2 cores, 2tb drive space and 4gb ram the rest is up to your wants, you dont NEED the latest GPU, id actually buy the best price/performance one and not play the latest games at max settings, way cheaper

make sure you plan your cleaning routine too, buy thermic paste (or whatever its called) and compressed air so you can clean the dust and prevent it from burning your pc, most people buy the rig and forget the maintenance

youll probably want to make videos, perhaps pc speedruns, buy at least a 2tb 7200rpm hard drive exclusively for that, if you want more go ahead your call, but that drive should be enough

about ssds for the os, well the os can fit in 64gb so you dont really need more than that, what you must learn is how to configure your os so all temporary/constant write files go to another drive, its handy for when you visit a friend and know how to config their pc for maximum speed too, you can charge them for it if you arent the giver kind too!

Being pc steam will probably be your main game source, get a 2tb drive for the games, id actually suggest a 7200 drive so load times are faster than with 5400 but whatever.

Learn to create many partitions, you can use all the letters!, C can be your os on the ssd drive, then D for the binaries (programs, eg photoshop or office) on your slow but big drive, E for temporary files (windows' TEMP folder your browser's, default download folder, whatever else) on a fast drive but not ssd because this partition will be write heavy, a gneral data parition, a video storage partition, etc On windows you can change the partition name so you dont have to memorize what each letter contains

about actual hardware, get a good PSU, cooler (even use water if needed, but its a pain in the ass to set up), and at least 2 cores, 2tb drive space and 4gb ram the rest is up to your wants, you dont NEED the latest GPU, id actually buy the best price/performance one and not play the latest games at max settings, way cheaper

Mystery

2013-03-10 03:16:29 am

The point is to put OS data on the SSD, including most temporaries.
Moving browser cache and stuff off the SSD serves to limit the benefit of the SSD. If you get a good SSD, then the number of writes should not be an issue.
Think of it this way: If your drive is 100 GB and each block in the SSD can handle 10.000 writes, then you can write a total of 100 x 10.000 = 1 million GB to it. Are you going to do that in any few number of years? I think not. So don't be cheap.

You don't need to go crazy on the partitioning either. Two partitions will typically suffice. One for system, one for the rest. You can use folders to organize your data.

MrSparkle

Edit history:

MrSparkle: 2013-03-10 03:22:18 am

2013-03-10 03:21:30 am

Doin Good

I don't think he needs to, or should do aftermarket heatsinks right now. Notice case getting dusty? Grab a can of air next time you go shopping. Windows can fit on 64 GB, but those drives tend not to be the greatest deals in GB/$. Modern SSDs can handle common writes easily with 20ish% free space. Jump through too many hoops with your SSD and you don't save any time at all.

If you don't have the budget for a 120 GB SSD, I suggest just installing the OS on a large 7200 drive. Partition it away from other stuff, and buy the SSD later. Streaming should work just fine with an i5, and recording stream bitrates is nothing. Recording SDA bound IQ footage is something else, though.

Once again this is giving me another urge to build. Mystery beat me to it.

Brettatron

2013-03-10 11:41:50 am

"Skimmed some of the replies, hope you didn't even do that."

whats that supposed to mean? Wink