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r0bd0g: 2016-02-08 11:23:13 am
r0bd0g: 2016-02-08 11:22:53 am
r0bd0g: 2016-02-08 11:21:17 am
r0bd0g: 2016-02-08 11:20:24 am
We need to get together and discuss what we're doing for commentary. There's a lot of things I'd like to talk about, but not enough brain power to run my mouth, so it'll be on you :p.

I've got 1:13:37 now. Bad Tree Boss was the most obvious mistake. I think a 1:12 would be enough upgrade the run quality from decent to good. My sum of bests isn't even there yet, but I haven't done many runs. Expect terrible video quality.
dude, stop breaking Fester lol. thats an impressive run, i think you could get 1:12:XX. video quality wasn't terrible, it was watchable.
I need to take a few runs in the next few weeks, i ran a 1:38:XX hanging out chatting and playing way conservative to not screw up. the Spider Shockwave works well, Final Boss Skip works well.
Jelleye, i screwed up that fight, but i tanked the damage to kill him on 1 cookie, so Im thinking the first 11 hits, then cookie, then just tank the damage, may save time running around. My health was 7 (i think yours is 6, you dont trade the rattle), might be worth testing, idk if 6 skulls could just tank over the cookie, you play this game really aggressive lol.

on SNESSuperstars, my thoughts, wat are parts you want to talk about, and what are parts you cant talk to concentrate, and we can work from there on commentary. i can talk for days, so brain power isn't a problem :p
If you watch that part in my run, that's what I did against Jelleye (now that I only need 1 blue cookie for the spider). I did 10 hits (last time I tried 11, accidentally did 12 and failed to mash the blue cookie in time, however you should know that 13 hits is possible before using the cookie if you're perfect). I did some timing, and optimally, it was faster to do the running around and avoid using the blue cookie, by about 1 second, since it saved the equip and you could attack faster since you didn't get stunned between hits, but it was pretty inconsistent, so I'm opting for using the blue cookie and tanking hits after it runs off. 1:12 is the current goal. (If I get REALLY LUCKY I know you can skip the full restore on the Iron Key screen. If I can have 4 skulls left I would try it. But I tend to take too many hits. I'm scared I will die during the marathon run because there are always a couple of really really tight segments where I barely survive. I might turn in the Rattle during the marathon.)

I'd like us to get in a Skype call and watch a run together and talk about stuff. There's a lot we need to explain since nobody else has ever played this game. Everything we do, it needs to be explained why we do it. Will you be around, say, this time next weekend?
Jelleye is really the only hard boss fight of the whole run. A consistent strat will make the bosses not a worry. Even if you die during the marathon, the continue points are dungeon beginnings or major transitions, so its only a few minutes set back. Dying to Jelleye will set you back to the Wetland Dungeon entrance so only like 2-3 minutes.
Rattle is like 45seconds and a safety strat, (i still turn it in).
You get down to .5 skulls before Morobe, I got worried lol.

I'll be around next weekend. I don't have anything planned, unless something unexpected pops up. Definitely watch a run together. I'll probably learn something from it.
I slop ran a 1:38:xx last weekend, but it used everything from your route except the Glitch location, so I'm learning No Music Box and only the cookies given at the swamp (no side quest refill). When my hand feels better, I'm aiming for 1:20:XX
Edit history:
r0bd0g: 2016-02-13 07:37:54 pm
r0bd0g: 2016-02-13 07:27:11 pm
r0bd0g: 2016-02-13 07:10:19 pm
It was a full skull at Morobe but it could have easily been death b/c the last room is crazy lol. But it WAS 0.5 skulls going into Jelleye :p. I knew when I got to 1.5 skulls I couldn't take another hit... the spitting fish room... The Jelleye fight is consistent. The hardest boss is the damn Gatekeeper. I tried to find your run in your past broadcasts but there wasn't anything there. Are you Josh Butro on Skype?
Edit history:
JoshButro: 2016-02-13 09:47:32 pm
[edited below]
i  was streaming on RetroGamingLive channel was I did my slop run. The last room before Morobe (I call it the Hell Ball room, idk why) generally i take 2 hits in there. so atleast 1.5 going in, 0.5 at Spider lol. Gatekeeper lol.
You found me on skype
"timer ends upon entering the door after the Final Boss"
We should probably change that wording on the rules since the final boss doesn't actually happen anymore.

I lied hardest boss is the tree, even though you can't die. So random. Flies all over the place for no reason. Got a decent one (the best tree I could get in practice was still quite a number of seconds faster though), and that's the main reason I improved on this run. Lost even more time on Dungeon 5 though. Maybe I should just turn in the damn rattle... it only wastes 30s, and saves an equip and eating a cookie. The extra skull might make it more likely to skip the iron key full restore, which takes about 15s, it might save a hit against Morobe since the damage done by shockwave depends on your HP, and also the extra two hits would make a huge difference on how quickly I could run though dungeon 5... Except if I turn it in I will always know there's that time to save from not turning that in if I can get a little lucky... so I guess I won't turn it in. Also I think on average it's faster to use only one blue cookie on Ma Hench. Only in a bad fight would it be worth it to use it to keep green lightning for longer. You can maybe use the blue cookie in the previous room if you're on low health (and if you do that, also use it to get damaged out of the white cookie animation).


I forget exactly how it went but it was something along the lines of...
Broke even on Dungeon 1.
Saved 3s on Greenhouse.
Lost 2s on Dungeon 3.
Lost 16s on an already bad Dungeon 5.
Saved 12s on Morgue. (Gold)
Saved 22s on Stone Gardens. (Gold)
Saved 2s on Done!. (Gold)
I forgot to mention this before but, in that "send help" video, if I pause I can see that it's changed what item I have equipped to be the Spider Eye, regardless of whether or not I actually have the item (items equipped in this manner would be usuable, btw). And then everytime I pause after that I see the selection cursor has moved to a different place.

Seems like the walk through walls glitch changes your sound setting to Surround? If you go into the options menu, it just says "sound type" and if you mash left or right (use turbo), garbage starts appearing LOL. It covers the whole screen eventually. So the glitch sets your sound type to some absurd value. At one point it spells the word "difficulty"??? At one point the words "sound test" appeared below exit??? (Instead of sound type, the Mega Drive version has music test and sound test on the options menu). Some of the absurd sound type settings (typically higher ones) caused the game to crash immediately when I tried to get back into the game, often with a strange sound effect and in a flurry of pretty colours.

Remember how I told you once it all turned to garbage and I could affect the garbage by mashing the arrow keys? I think I may have jumped to a crazy-glitched options menu?? I loaded up that old save and indeed, every third time I press down, if I press a or y, if fades out and then crashes -- exit button! I forgot to mention this before, but I have also jumped directly to the title screen, skipping the copyright screen (I think this was done at least mostly legit but I can't remember for sure). At least I remembered to tell you about how I called up the SRAM ERROR! screen. Maybe the copyright screen in the case where you do the walk through walls glitch correctly isn't a recovery from a crash, but rather a jump directly to it, and that's why RAM doesn't get reset? ... All of this makes you wonder what else you might be able to jump to...

1:12:54 - 02/22/16 - Improvement of 22s.

Run summary:
Saved less than 1s on Dungeon 1. I got hit early and decided not to wait for anything.
Lost 5s on Greenhouse. Made some stupid decisions.
Saved 4s on Dungeon 3. Gold split even though I fought the boss with green lightning LOL. Some stuff went down between TME and Granny and I decided I wasn't gonna slow down for nobody.
Saved 23s on Dungeon 5. That's a bit more like it! ... But could still be better.
Saved 1s on Morgue. That was a pretty good split already. Only way to really beat it is if I can skip that detour after Iron Key.
Saved 5s on Stone Gardens. Pretty close to as good as it gets for the tree boss. Will be a tough split to match since that fight is heavy RNG.
Lost 6s on Done. I talked to Thing too early and got Morticia too... :/

Except the two splits where I lost a total of 11s, every split was a new best, lol. But I still don't think I've bested that best Greenhouse split that I lost.
I'm still beating my PB on almost every single attempt... I figure that probably changes after this run. But I gotta keep practicing for the SNESthon... take a look at cutting room floor, you speak of things in the game by removed/restricted to memory addresses never checked, like difficulty and sound test
i think whatever you are doing at the garbage is jumping to somewhere close to ACE, if it can jump to the right address...
Under Debug misc. might explain how we are getting walk through walls and disable hit detection.
Edit history:
r0bd0g: 2016-02-27 04:23:31 pm
I did a glitchless run yesterday: 1:32:15. So here's that:


Here are some random or not so random differences I noticed with the Mega Drive version of this game.
It's clear this version is updated from the SNES version, but is overall the inferior version due hardware differences.

- Has a Sega logo. If you wait long enough on title screen it returns to the Sega logo.
- Bad sound.
- It's greener.
- No sound type in options menu. Has music test and sound test instead.
- Password screen starts on H not B. Passwords not cross-platform.
- Runs at 5/6 speed (PAL-only).
- Textboxes appear and disappear immediately. (Parts of some NPC's don't get 100% covered up by textboxes as a result.)
- Cannot hold the text advance button to move the first line of a text box immediately.
- Very long unpause.
- No EHN sound effect when using some items incorrectly.
- No screen-scrolling transitions -- all fade outs.
- No rain, no thunder & lightning, no fog, no snow.
- Warps are faster.
- Bees don't buzz.
- Can move for a frame before the Swamp and Mansion intros appear?
- The worms start at different points in their cycles. Overall the updated starting positions seems more ravenous than before.
- Spawn in different position at start of Dungeon 3. Text comes up immediately.
- Sound plays every time you press the button to press a button.
- First room of dungeon 2 isn't dark. First dark room in dungeon 6 isn't dark. Dungeon 6 worm room not dark. Really easy to see in dark rooms anyway. Firefly makes room completely bright.
- Some enemies missing from 2nd-last room of Morgue?
- Fester is stunned while the screen shakes. Bowling Ball, Smied, for example. Smied will clap and if the rock decides to be right above you then you can't get out of the way before the stun wears off. Is that what that boss's name is? I got it 2nd-hand so I've never read the manual.
- Morobe cutscene before final boss doesn't trigger until you get closer to the centre of the room.
- Ocean mansion totally visible for entire credits. They scroll faster. No balloons after. The fade out after happens automatically and cuts the music off, rather than having a minute of credits with no music like the SNES version.

- 0 max health continue does not crash. Much of game temporarily replaced by empty skull dots.
- The Shockwave (and Black Egg too I guess) is apparently able to kill you in this game. Your health goes to 0 if you try to use it with 0.5 HP, and after a LONG pause where the music plays very slowly, you die, and when you return to the title screen, you are strangely not given the option to continue.
- Red Potion very slowly flashes entire screen. Cannot move much while the flashing is occuring. If you take a loading zone before you start taking damage, you take no damage.
- Despite the fact that it is no longer possible to die into a loading zone, attempting to do so can still result in the 0 HP glitch? You can move A VERY SMALL AMOUNT when using the Red Potion and I guess just touching the transition is enough to trigger the glitch? I've probably got this part wrong but it doesn't matter because...
- Taking a hit while at 0 HP still kills you. You won't be going through the end game practically invincible unfortunately.
- I tried using the Shockwave at 0 HP also, and got the same result as with 0.5 HP.
- I hacked my HP to an absurdly high number to see what would happen. When I use the Shockwave, what happens is the screen slowly fills up with empty heart dots before returning control to the player, much like the 0 max health continue glitch except with that glitch you don't get to see it slowly fill up. Note that major area transitions don't seem to refresh the HP display?, so nothing of interest happens there.
- Sitting around slowly taking damage does fill the screen up with garbage like you would expect, but none of this is actually possible since it seems you cannot underflow your HP anymore.
- More bad news: The Infinite Shockwave Glitch does not work.
- Well at least you can still skip the bone spoon?
- So taking a guess Genesis version is slower by maybe 35 minutes?
So I was messing around with the glitch some more and found another place you could jump to: a new game (glitch active, sound type unchanged). When I did it I was in the Greenhouse and I'd taken 110 hits before picking up the full restore. From that state it usually worked but not always. When I tried to recreate it, I couldn't get it to work again... Lots of weird little things seem to affect the exact outcome... This glitch is nonsense.
This glitch seems like it's begging us to ACE it by trying all the full restores and stumble across something, maybe the Full Restores act different, or some variable is changing something.

Gratz on the glitchless run, I need to get back into some runs, probably after I'm done with SNESSuperstars, (I picked some rough games lol)
I have a lot to learn, since my glitchless time is 40 minutes slower, but I think I can shortcut some of my side tracking,
Maybe on add Glitchless% as a category, because I was thinking just to track some times, that any%, glitchless%, and I want to add a 100% item collection category, would be fun to route IMO.
It's been a long time since I had the utilities and even more so the time to get on here, and decided I better check what's going on in the community. I kind of had a long break due to research and some work related things of that sort, but I'm getting back into streaming and easing myself back into speed running.

So it's really good to see the game that I was (thinking) about maining getting some actual attention. After Mindez had said that you were running this game Josh I checked out some of your stuff to see if you had used any of the glitches I was talking about before. But like I said, life took me far from gaming for abit. And before that when I actually was talking about the glitches it had probably been 12 years since I had picked that game up, between practicing a run and actually playing the game when I was younger.

However, I would like to parse this game with robodog's glitch, to see what the ram and the in game db is doing to itself. I really vaguely remember someone skipping and clipping through a wall in the desert to go into some other areas. Again there would need to be testing. But from robodog's no clip it looks like you still have to hit the transition barriers. so even if  the whole game is on one big texture map it wouldn't matter cause you would need to hit the transition to move to the next area. UNLESS you could reset the values with a different glitch. OOT does that in it's glitched run if you don't know what I'm talking about check it out. acouple of theories but might be some food for thought for you guys.

One other thing I've been mauling around for alittle while is doing a new sort of "run", I'm calling it a "domination run" and essentially because you're destroying the game (completion wise). If you're interested or anyone else seeing this for that matter is interested let me know and we can talk about it more. But it obviously wouldn't be hosted on this site because it'd be a really long run no matter what game you choose to do it on. So I'm thinking about getting the site all set up if there's enough interest in something like that.

As for me running I think you guys have pretty much got this game as far down as it's going to go (congrats btw) and I'd probably just be wasting my time that could be spent on other games or work, or something actually productive. I will keep checked in. but I really don't remember this site to terribly often sadly. which is a real shame because the community is AMAZING on this site.
It's not robo, but it's OK everybody makes that mistake. If there's an actual clip in the desert to the rockies or something, I'd like to know about it, but I have my doubts. I've sort-of tried hitting two transitions at once... but I couldn't find any close enough together -- when the transitions meet at a corner, they don't touch, you can get in between the transitions and take neither...

Really you're asking ME if I know about WW in OoT LOL.
Edit history:
r0bd0g: 2016-08-18 05:30:26 pm
I activated Walk Through Walls without needing the Red Potion. This would probably save about 10 minutes. But... there are some issues.

So you remember how I told you you can crash the game with the shockwave if you use it while you have 0.5 skulls? The easiest way to do that is to damage to 0.5 skulls, pick up a full restore powerup and use the shockwave immediately. Unfortunately, that method always results in your HP getting strewn about in the exact same way every time, and while the results can be quite varied, I have yet to see it do anything useful.

There's a much harder way of activating it which can be used in more places, using a while cookie. After damaging to 0.5 skulls, first use a blue cookie so that taking a hit won't kill you. Then use a while cookie and immediately get damaged out of the cookie animation. But that's not quite good enough: you also have to cancel the damage animation with any non-screen-scrolling transition (the transition doesn't have to be from one screen to another; it doesn't work with screen scrolls because they don't cancel the damage animation; also, it's quite difficult, if it's possible at all, to get damaged down stairs). So to recap, you have to use a white cookie and get immediately damaged immediately into a transition. Once you arrive, you have to immediately pause, then you unpause and use the shockwave immediately. All of that has to be done before the while cookie restores the first bit of health. And if you do all of that, it crashes the exact same way as with a full restore, except if you manage to use the shockwave on the first possible frame after the transition. But it's not quite that easy. The frame you pause to equip shockwave would count as the first frame after the transition, so after the equip you must immediately walk right back into the transition, further cutting into your frame windows to actually pull off this trick. So all of those immediate inputs add up to you having -1 to 1 frames of wiggle room (at 60 fps, depending on the transitions you use) to pull all of that off, and the last input is always frame-perfect regardless. So this trick is approximately triple frame perfect at 60 fps.

If you manage it, your HP will get 'strewn about' in a totally different way, though I no idea why this is the case. The final result depends on factors of which I am mostly not aware. The area you're in probably matters. Which transition you just used is very likely important (stairs and caves seem to work better than screen edges, but I have seen a screen edge work at least once). The global sfx counter can matter if you've got a potential title screen warp (which you might sometimes have -- make sure that counter is set to 142 in that case). But even when all those things are equal, there are obviously other things at play because the transition I wanted to use to do it legit completely didn't work with my late-game saves. I've always either had to at least hack the shockwave to be my equipped item, or I had to set all three HP variables to 1 before using it. The HP variable seems to get strewn a little differently on each save you try it on...
Here's a video of it being done from a legit state.

Feel free to read the huge youtube description for more info.
In the off-chance anybody reads this thread I figured I'd post an update.

This trick and the previous trick are mutually-exclusive due to the credits warp requiring you to be standing on stairs at the instant you do it. That doesn't mean it's impossible to do them both together, it just means that I haven't found a setup for that yet. I decided to run with this setup b/c it's pretty easy, while any red potion skip setup is going to be crazy hard, and rather than worry too much about that I just wanted to update this game a bit.

So I got a 57:25. You can look that up on src if you need.

I bet this game could be beaten maybe up to 10 minutes faster if I could find the right setup for credits warp and red potion skip together, but I burnt myself out just finding this credits warp setup. I plan to come back and hunt for the red potion skip setup again someday...
Another update, found a credits warp method without red potion, saves 8 minutes. Got the sub 50.