Addams Family Values (SNES)

2015-09-12 03:08:45 pm

1:33:01, garbage run though, i just like posting progress

FireFly skip worked, then i missed the Black cube, so RIP 4 minutes
Iron Key for the area to glitch worked awesome,

not too much to say about this run, sub 1:30 is going to be easy.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2015-09-12 05:35:49 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-12 05:34:04 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-12 04:48:34 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-12 04:42:49 pm

2015-09-12 04:41:09 pm

I'll tell you a bit more about how my run went. Very shakey first half. I kept taking too much damage and having to use cookies earlier than I wanted too. For example, I couldn't damage boost through the last room of the Greenhouse since then I wouldn't have had blue lightning for Plant Features, and later I didn't manage to make it to the boss of dungeon three with blue lightning. I briefly went the wrong way on a couple of occasions, but nothing too major. Like, I noticed I was heading toward Phweep when the reason I was there was for the black cube. Scary moment against the spider boss - I survived with half a skull. I want to try and work something better out for Jelleye so that I can save both blue cookies for the spider.

I'd like to watch your run to see if you know anything I don't or if I know something you don't, but currently I do not have a method of viewing twitch vods... I'm admittedly somewhat peeved that you keep claiming "WR" despite your time being nearly 10 minutes slower...

I'll tell you a bit more about how my run went. Very shakey first half. I kept taking too much damage and having to use cookies earlier than I wanted too. For example, I couldn't damage boost through the last room of the Greenhouse since then I wouldn't have had blue lightning for Plant Features, and later I didn't manage to make it to the boss of dungeon three with blue lightning. I briefly went the wrong way on a couple of occasions, but nothing too major. Like, I noticed I was heading toward Phweep when the reason I was there was for the black cube. Scary moment against the spider boss - I survived with half a skull. I want to try and work something better out for Jelleye so that I can save both blue cookies for the spider.

I'd like to watch your run to see if you know anything I don't or if I know something you don't, but currently I do not have a method of viewing twitch vods... I'm admittedly somewhat peeved that you keep claiming "WR" despite your time being nearly 10 minutes slower...

JoshButro

2015-09-12 07:39:02 pm

i would love to see one of your runs, it sounds very impressive.

To put it nicely, the Speedrunning Community is about proof, unless proof exists...
If you want to claim fastest time, "WR", whatever, go for it.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 04:58:01 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 04:46:29 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 04:35:47 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:38:35 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:38:17 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:34:44 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:34:28 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:32:58 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:32:40 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:31:19 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:27:02 am

r0bd0g: 2015-09-13 12:26:35 am

2015-09-13 12:24:30 am

You gotta forgive a guy for having a broken laptop cmon. My issue is not with not having credit for having the record, that's not what bothers me... You know what, just beat the time; it shouldn't be difficult. You want to beat it, I want you to beat it, and then no more issue.

Alright I've got some pointers for you, having watched the 1:35. You play well but I think in general you ought to take more risks.

You have a faster route out of dungeon 1 than the one I was taking.

I skipped Firefly. I hear you're doing that now.

In dungeon 3, you take the wrong blue warp. You have the option of taking left or right, and left is faster, but you go right.

I skipped pumpkin and candle. I didn't turn in the Rattle either (but I'm willing to turn it in if I take extra damage while getting the slime).

You don't have to talk to Gomez before dungeon 5.

You don't need to listen to the Sarlacc monster tell you about his indegestion. Fire the slime as soon as you enter.

These glitches definitely work on a cart. I discovered them on a cart. I'm curious about the Genesis/Mega Drive versions, though...

You hit an extra pressure switch in the first room of dungeon 5. It makes a path to somewhere you've already been. You also push the switch in the last room on dungeon 5 one too many times.

I didn't pick up the cookie book in dungeon 5. I use one of each cookie on each of the last two bosses. This is your main timeloss, leaving dungeon 5 for more cookies. It was about five minutes you lost. About Jelleye, if you don't move and just start firing right away, he (usually?) can't hit you until he starts moving. Morobe is a super-tense fight, though, and I tend to barely survive it. I'd like to beat Jelleye without using a blue cookie, saving both for Morobe, but I haven't had a chance to test boss strats yet.

You still take the wrong red warp in dungeon 6 when going from iron key to shockwave/exit. It takes you to do a dark room where you have to find the right pressure switch. The other warp has no such additional room. I lost a run to Morobe because I got knocked into the warp that you take and didn't remember where switch was, costing me my cookie. The other red warp also takes you to a better position in the invisible wall room.

In the 1:35, the glitch worked because you took 13 hits. It depends on your max HP when you use the shockwave. The shockwave was still there because you never hit a continue point after getting it. I kept it and used it on the last two bosses.

I think while going from Wetlands to TME while walking through walls, east then south is probably faster than the normal way, by a little. There are other minor things I wonder about, like taking the stairs down from the slime guy instead of walking, but minor things like that are hard to discern which is faster when timing with your clock radio.

You don't have to talk to Lurch and Thing on the way out of Stone Gardens.

You still take a presumably slower route through dungeon 7. In the first room, take the upper door instead of heading to the left. Don't go for the Amulet in the next room, go right instead, and the rest is obvious. It might be faster to take the first blue warp, idk, but it warps you to the centre of the room.

On Smied it might be worth it to go down to the bottom of the room because you can get constant hits down there without having to chase him around.

And you can skip the pipe burst cutscene just by going behind it, but I guess you know about this now.

The switch on the last screen before the final boss, you might not have to hit if you go straight left? I'll have to check to make sure the warps aren't random or something...

And that's everything I noticed. One last thing I found this week that, while you're walking through walls, you cannot get the iron key, even with the magnet? Weird.

You gotta forgive a guy for having a broken laptop cmon. My issue is not with not having credit for having the record, that's not what bothers me... You know what, just beat the time; it shouldn't be difficult. You want to beat it, I want you to beat it, and then no more issue.

Alright I've got some pointers for you, having watched the 1:35. You play well but I think in general you ought to take more risks.

You have a faster route out of dungeon 1 than the one I was taking.

I skipped Firefly. I hear you're doing that now.

In dungeon 3, you take the wrong blue warp. You have the option of taking left or right, and left is faster, but you go right.

I skipped pumpkin and candle. I didn't turn in the Rattle either (but I'm willing to turn it in if I take extra damage while getting the slime).

You don't have to talk to Gomez before dungeon 5.

You don't need to listen to the Sarlacc monster tell you about his indegestion. Fire the slime as soon as you enter.

These glitches definitely work on a cart. I discovered them on a cart. I'm curious about the Genesis/Mega Drive versions, though...

You hit an extra pressure switch in the first room of dungeon 5. It makes a path to somewhere you've already been. You also push the switch in the last room on dungeon 5 one too many times.

I didn't pick up the cookie book in dungeon 5. I use one of each cookie on each of the last two bosses. This is your main timeloss, leaving dungeon 5 for more cookies. It was about five minutes you lost. About Jelleye, if you don't move and just start firing right away, he (usually?) can't hit you until he starts moving. Morobe is a super-tense fight, though, and I tend to barely survive it. I'd like to beat Jelleye without using a blue cookie, saving both for Morobe, but I haven't had a chance to test boss strats yet.

You still take the wrong red warp in dungeon 6 when going from iron key to shockwave/exit. It takes you to do a dark room where you have to find the right pressure switch. The other warp has no such additional room. I lost a run to Morobe because I got knocked into the warp that you take and didn't remember where switch was, costing me my cookie. The other red warp also takes you to a better position in the invisible wall room.

In the 1:35, the glitch worked because you took 13 hits. It depends on your max HP when you use the shockwave. The shockwave was still there because you never hit a continue point after getting it. I kept it and used it on the last two bosses.

I think while going from Wetlands to TME while walking through walls, east then south is probably faster than the normal way, by a little. There are other minor things I wonder about, like taking the stairs down from the slime guy instead of walking, but minor things like that are hard to discern which is faster when timing with your clock radio.

You don't have to talk to Lurch and Thing on the way out of Stone Gardens.

You still take a presumably slower route through dungeon 7. In the first room, take the upper door instead of heading to the left. Don't go for the Amulet in the next room, go right instead, and the rest is obvious. It might be faster to take the first blue warp, idk, but it warps you to the centre of the room.

On Smied it might be worth it to go down to the bottom of the room because you can get constant hits down there without having to chase him around.

And you can skip the pipe burst cutscene just by going behind it, but I guess you know about this now.

The switch on the last screen before the final boss, you might not have to hit if you go straight left? I'll have to check to make sure the warps aren't random or something...

And that's everything I noticed. One last thing I found this week that, while you're walking through walls, you cannot get the iron key, even with the magnet? Weird.

r0bd0g

2015-09-13 01:54:53 pm

Something funny I wanted to share. I asked a friend to investigate the glitch a little. He hacked his HP to 128 (64 skull, normally HP underflow gives you over 30000 skulls), then he used the shockwave, and the result:

The graphics of glitch change for a bit when he tries to move around. If you look closely you can see he has walk through walls without having to crash the game. I think our special setup just prevents some of the games RAM from being totally reset after the crash. I will try to enlist some further assisstence...

JoshButro

Edit history:

JoshButro: 2015-09-13 07:20:59 pm

2015-09-13 07:20:04 pm

Hey, i need to apologize, it's been a rough week, and i think some of my issues show through into words and I'm sorry if i've said or done anything. Sorry.

I really to want to see you run this, as you sound like you have played and practiced this a lot as a main game. I really appreciate everything you have shared and this game would not be at this point without you.

I feel bad for what i have said about not seeing your runs. I really want to, to see what i can learn from you.

I ran a 1:33:01 in my first 'Firefly Skip' run, then i skipped the black cube, so there went that time save. I havent ran it again this weekend, (personal issues outside of twitch)
My runs are fairly conservative, and i know i need to take more risks, that im working on.

Dungeon 1 is fairly easy,

Dungeon 3, i need to check the left warp, i usually take right because of less enemies.

I'm skipping pumpkin and candle now, saves dialog time with Wednesday.
Rattle is being moved to a time to get a free health refill and the extra skull before the Wetlands, might need it against Jelleye.

Really skip Gomez text, didnt know that

Firing slime, Ive always missed the timing, that i try

Im stuck on emu right now until i get a system, Skavenger216 lives near me, so would love to see this on a cart, going to try that one night.

i need to check for Dungeon 5 Wetlands, pressure switches

My major timeloss is cookies, as the only way ive gotten the glitch to work is having a cookie before triggering Shockwave, which requires me to have more cookies than 2,

The bosses, need boss strats for, that is the hard part of the run, i need to grind practice those

I guess i need to understand the glitch better as i need a cookie to make it work. That i need more practice on, i think i understand the glitch better, i could make it work without needing a cookie

Dungeon 6, i take the other Red Warp now, i found that one,

there are alot of small optimization i need to make as running the game more, will help with that,

that video is interesting, i really want to find out what makes the glitch work, and why the Shockwave triggers it,
It seems like it basically activates the Debug Menu somehow, so investigating might lead to another way to do that, maybe faster....

I'm also thinking of TASing this game to see if it helps too...

Hey, i need to apologize, it's been a rough week, and i think some of my issues show through into words and I'm sorry if i've said or done anything. Sorry.

I really to want to see you run this, as you sound like you have played and practiced this a lot as a main game. I really appreciate everything you have shared and this game would not be at this point without you.

I feel bad for what i have said about not seeing your runs. I really want to, to see what i can learn from you.

I ran a 1:33:01 in my first 'Firefly Skip' run, then i skipped the black cube, so there went that time save. I havent ran it again this weekend, (personal issues outside of twitch) 
My runs are fairly conservative, and i know i need to take more risks, that im working on.

Dungeon 1 is fairly easy,

Dungeon 3, i need to check the left warp, i usually take right because of less enemies.

I'm skipping pumpkin and candle now, saves dialog time with Wednesday.
Rattle is being moved to a time to get a free health refill and the extra skull before the Wetlands, might need it against Jelleye.

Really skip Gomez text, didnt know that

Firing slime, Ive always missed the timing, that i try

Im stuck on emu right now until i get a system, Skavenger216 lives near me, so would love to see this on a cart, going to try that one night.

i need to check for Dungeon 5 Wetlands, pressure switches

My major timeloss is cookies, as the only way ive gotten the glitch to work is having a cookie before triggering Shockwave, which requires me to have more cookies than 2,

The bosses, need boss strats for, that is the hard part of the run, i need to grind practice those

I guess i need to understand the glitch better as i need a cookie to make it work. That i need more practice on, i think i understand the glitch better, i could make it work without needing a cookie

Dungeon 6, i take the other Red Warp now, i found that one,

there are alot of small optimization i need to make as running the game more, will help with that,

that video is interesting, i really want to find out what makes the glitch work, and why the Shockwave triggers it, 
It seems like it basically activates the Debug Menu somehow, so investigating might lead to another way to do that, maybe faster....

I'm also thinking of TASing this game to see if it helps too...

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2015-09-15 04:00:53 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-15 03:56:28 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-15 03:44:32 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-15 03:29:23 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-15 03:22:43 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-15 03:21:43 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-09-15 03:18:32 pm

2015-09-15 03:16:41 pm

Hey the dungeon 3 thing I said before is wrong. I was playing the game yesterday and I was like, wait shit, there's an extra room, lol. While we're correcting things I said before, not turning in the Rattle doesn't prevent Morticia from getting in the way when you go to get Jewelled Key, and Jelleye can sometimes hit you if you just walk forward into the fight, but if you take a couple steps to the left first then I've never seen it happen.

I was talking again to bonecrusher and he says that diagonal movement actually does save a bit of time over walking horizontally and vertically, and he also says getting pushed diagonally by running into a wall is slower than going around, which sucks for me because I haven't been doing either of those things correctly, lol. TBH I'm not totally sure I believe him, so maybe somebody ought to reconfirm this. I was really hoping diagonal movement wouldn't be faster because on my controller it's really hard to move down-right. Down and Right individually are hard enough to get to press, but both at the same time... ugh. So I probably lost actually a decent chunk of time from this... I'm really interested to learn what kinds of speed optimizations you learn from working on the TAS! I get online every Tuesday or so... I'd like to see WIPs as you go so I can offer some suggestions.

New PB done early this morning - 1:18:39. I recorded this one on my VCR. I'll make an attempt to get it uploaded in early October, but if that ends up being a no-go, then maybe the next opportunity will be over Christmas, IDK. Expect insanely abysmal quality, lol. I have a capture card, just no computer. I expect this game could be done maybe 2 minutes faster, but to make significant improvements from here on out would take actual effort on my part... I would need a new SNES controller before I could consider it, and right now my max budget for anything is $0.

Here are the exact steps for getting walk through walls activated.
0. Get the Shockwave between getting Iron Key and going to Morgue.
1. Go to Iron Key screen.
2. Use the Red Potion to die into the dungeon entrance and continue.
3. Go over to the snowballs on this screen and get hit twice.
4. Continue past the snowballs to the full restore powerup and pick it up.
5. Use the shockwave.

What using a cookie did for you, by the way, is it reduced your max health to your current amount of health -- it's glitched in the same way as picking up a full restore powerup. The only difference between the two things is you're not allowed to use a cookie until your health is less than your max health, but you can pick up a full restore at any time.

The shockwave triggers it because it reduces your HP by half, so the game is trying to display all those empty skulls, but there's so many of them, they get written over godknowswhat.

Hey the dungeon 3 thing I said before is wrong. I was playing the game yesterday and I was like, wait shit, there's an extra room, lol. While we're correcting things I said before, not turning in the Rattle doesn't prevent Morticia from getting in the way when you go to get Jewelled Key, and Jelleye can sometimes hit you if you just walk forward into the fight, but if you take a couple steps to the left first then I've never seen it happen.

I was talking again to bonecrusher and he says that diagonal movement actually does save a bit of time over walking horizontally and vertically, and he also says getting pushed diagonally by running into a wall is slower than going around, which sucks for me because I haven't been doing either of those things correctly, lol. TBH I'm not totally sure I believe him, so maybe somebody ought to reconfirm this. I was really hoping diagonal movement wouldn't be faster because on my controller it's really hard to move down-right. Down and Right individually are hard enough to get to press, but both at the same time... ugh. So I probably lost actually a decent chunk of time from this... I'm really interested to learn what kinds of speed optimizations you learn from working on the TAS! I get online every Tuesday or so... I'd like to see WIPs as you go so I can offer some suggestions.

New PB done early this morning - 1:18:39. I recorded this one on my VCR. I'll make an attempt to get it uploaded in early October, but if that ends up being a no-go, then maybe the next opportunity will be over Christmas, IDK. Expect insanely abysmal quality, lol. I have a capture card, just no computer. I expect this game could be done maybe 2 minutes faster, but to make significant improvements from here on out would take actual effort on my part... I would need a new SNES controller before I could consider it, and right now my max budget for anything is $0.

Here are the exact steps for getting walk through walls activated.
0. Get the Shockwave between getting Iron Key and going to Morgue.
1. Go to Iron Key screen.
2. Use the Red Potion to die into the dungeon entrance and continue.
3. Go over to the snowballs on this screen and get hit twice.
4. Continue past the snowballs to the full restore powerup and pick it up.
5. Use the shockwave.

What using a cookie did for you, by the way, is it reduced your max health to your current amount of health -- it's glitched in the same way as picking up a full restore powerup. The only difference between the two things is you're not allowed to use a cookie until your health is less than your max health, but you can pick up a full restore at any time.

The shockwave triggers it because it reduces your HP by half, so the game is trying to display all those empty skulls, but there's so many of them, they get written over godknowswhat.

r0bd0g

2015-09-24 07:33:10 am

Documenting some more glitches.

It occurred to me that maybe the way that they simulated you having full HP immediately after getting a full restore, even though your health is still slowly refilling, was to set you maximum HP to your current HP at every step of the way. There's a programmer somewhere who thinks he's really clever, but it's sadly mistaken, lol. So that would definitely explain some of the things I've been seeing so far, and I had a pretty good idea how to verify it. So now there's a glitch also to decrease your maximum HP. Go through a screen transition to set a continue point in the midst of having your health fully restored. You'll probably have to use a cookie and get damaged out of the animation. When you die and revive, you will have the same amount of HP that you had when you went through the transition, and your maximum HP will be set to that value, rounded down to the nearest skull. You can decrease it all the way down to 1 skull, but when I tried decreasing it down to 0 skulls, the game crashed when I tried to continue.

I wanted to see what would happen if I picked up the black egg with 0.5 skulls. If the game decreases your HP by half and rounds up, it will deal no damage, or if it rounds down, it should kill you, but I had a pretty good idea that the things which halve your HP aren't programmed to be able to kill you, so I was curious how they decided to handle that. Turns out that they forgot to handle it at all and the game crashes. The results of the crash seem somewhat variable, including one time where it seemed like it reset with normal control, but after a second or so back in-game, it literally blue-screened. The first time I got the crash, the game laughed at me, the music stopped, it faded to black and hung forever, and that's when I had a serious deja-vu moment. I'm pretty positive that that exact same thing happened to me many many moons ago, on my first playthrough of this game. I remember being seriously confused at the time.

Combining the previous two glitches, you can also crash the game with the shockwave, by using it at 0.5 HP (or 0 HP), which can be done by using it immediately as you get any full health restore. No luck yet on walking through walls without having to get the red potion; I kinda doubt that it will be possible along these lines, but I still find it interesting. You can also use this to be able to use the shockwave without taking any damage at all, if you use it at the right time during the refill.

Totally inconsequential little glitch, but on some transitions in the wetlands, they forever to check whether or not the water should be dirty, so if you come in through those transitions, it always appears clean regardless.

I decided to reconsider the best route for getting the glitch after coming back from red potion. At first I compared the Iron Key full restore to the one inside the dungeon. For the one in the dungeon, you would do 0 HP glitch as soon as you get back to dungeon 6 from the morgue, and then basically you would walk through the dungeon twice, getting the glitch the first time, walking through walls the second time. In that route I figured you would probably not want to skip the full restore in dungeon 6, since that one is faster than the one on the Iron Key screen so I figure you'd be more likely to want to skip that one, if you were going to skip either of them. And from that point, it didn't seem to matter whether you got the shockwave now, which adds a backtrack of one room after getting it, or be forced to pick it up twice later. I guess my point here is that I don't think you really save any time in that route from not having to detour to the shockwave between Iron Key and the morgue. So when timing the routes, they were basically even, with maybe a slight advantage to using the full restore in the dungeon. I think this could maybe be the fastest route if it were reasonable to make it from the dungeon entrance to the full restore only taking 2 or 3 hits, but that seems unlikely, so you would probably have to standing around taking extra damage in order to take 12 or 13 hits before doing the glitch. In the end I concluded the fastest route, by maybe 5 or 10 seconds, so not very much difference between any of them, is to use the full restore out on the Rimble box screen. It seems a slightly lesser detour to go there, and I think it should be more than reasonable to only take 2 or 3 hits between the exit of the dungeon and the full restore that's there. I was at least going to time the full restore in the wetlands, but my hands were killing me, so I decided to just assume it was as ungodly slow as I figured it ought to be.

Documenting some more glitches.

It occurred to me that maybe the way that they simulated you having full HP immediately after getting a full restore, even though your health is still slowly refilling, was to set you maximum HP to your current HP at every step of the way. There's a programmer somewhere who thinks he's really clever, but it's sadly mistaken, lol. So that would definitely explain some of the things I've been seeing so far, and I had a pretty good idea how to verify it. So now there's a glitch also to decrease your maximum HP. Go through a screen transition to set a continue point in the midst of having your health fully restored. You'll probably have to use a cookie and get damaged out of the animation. When you die and revive, you will have the same amount of HP that you had when you went through the transition, and your maximum HP will be set to that value, rounded down to the nearest skull. You can decrease it all the way down to 1 skull, but when I tried decreasing it down to 0 skulls, the game crashed when I tried to continue.

I wanted to see what would happen if I picked up the black egg with 0.5 skulls. If the game decreases your HP by half and rounds up, it will deal no damage, or if it rounds down, it should kill you, but I had a pretty good idea that the things which halve your HP aren't programmed to be able to kill you, so I was curious how they decided to handle that. Turns out that they forgot to handle it at all and the game crashes. The results of the crash seem somewhat variable, including one time where it seemed like it reset with normal control, but after a second or so back in-game, it literally blue-screened. The first time I got the crash, the game laughed at me, the music stopped, it faded to black and hung forever, and that's when I had a serious deja-vu moment. I'm pretty positive that that exact same thing happened to me many many moons ago, on my first playthrough of this game. I remember being seriously confused at the time.

Combining the previous two glitches, you can also crash the game with the shockwave, by using it at 0.5 HP (or 0 HP), which can be done by using it immediately as you get any full health restore. No luck yet on walking through walls without having to get the red potion; I kinda doubt that it will be possible along these lines, but I still find it interesting. You can also use this to be able to use the shockwave without taking any damage at all, if you use it at the right time during the refill.

Totally inconsequential little glitch, but on some transitions in the wetlands, they forever to check whether or not the water should be dirty, so if you come in through those transitions, it always appears clean regardless.

I decided to reconsider the best route for getting the glitch after coming back from red potion. At first I compared the Iron Key full restore to the one inside the dungeon. For the one in the dungeon, you would do 0 HP glitch as soon as you get back to dungeon 6 from the morgue, and then basically you would walk through the dungeon twice, getting the glitch the first time, walking through walls the second time. In that route I figured you would probably not want to skip the full restore in dungeon 6, since that one is faster than the one on the Iron Key screen so I figure you'd be more likely to want to skip that one, if you were going to skip either of them. And from that point, it didn't seem to matter whether you got the shockwave now, which adds a backtrack of one room after getting it, or be forced to pick it up twice later. I guess my point here is that I don't think you really save any time in that route from not having to detour to the shockwave between Iron Key and the morgue. So when timing the routes, they were basically even, with maybe a slight advantage to using the full restore in the dungeon. I think this could maybe be the fastest route if it were reasonable to make it from the dungeon entrance to the full restore only taking 2 or 3 hits, but that seems unlikely, so you would probably have to standing around taking extra damage in order to take 12 or 13 hits before doing the glitch. In the end I concluded the fastest route, by maybe 5 or 10 seconds, so not very much difference between any of them, is to use the full restore out on the Rimble box screen. It seems a slightly lesser detour to go there, and I think it should be more than reasonable to only take 2 or 3 hits between the exit of the dungeon and the full restore that's there. I was at least going to time the full restore in the wetlands, but my hands were killing me, so I decided to just assume it was as ungodly slow as I figured it ought to be.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2015-09-29 08:51:10 am

2015-09-29 08:50:19 am

A little more.

I had an idea that maybe you could damage boost through those NPCs that block you and it does kinda work, just you can't quite get all the way through. The only one I could think to try it on is the Feed Me plant blocking you from getting to dungeon 3. I could get pretty-much completely inside his lower body when I used those walking guys. I think in a TAS setting, maybe if you lined up the bees to be in the right place at the right time, you might be able to use successive damage boosts to get the whole way through. I think it could maybe save some frames over taking two trips to the greenhouse, and maybe it could save a few frames over bothering to feed him if you do it two more times or maybe not. As far as skipping the greenhouse altogether, you can avoid the other Feed Me plant by going through dungeon 4, but I have no theories for how to get through him on the way back to get the black cube.

While we're talking about TAS optimizations I should mention that I've used a cookie into a cutscene at least once before.

If you use walk through walls to go straight to the boss of the greenhouse, then if you unlock the green key door after, it respawns the boss fight and you can get an extra skull and pointlessly recollect the plant food. This time the warp will be there and active throughout the duration of the fight. If you take it while he's blowing up, you miss out on those prizes.

A little more.

I had an idea that maybe you could damage boost through those NPCs that block you and it does kinda work, just you can't quite get all the way through. The only one I could think to try it on is the Feed Me plant blocking you from getting to dungeon 3. I could get pretty-much completely inside his lower body when I used those walking guys. I think in a TAS setting, maybe if you lined up the bees to be in the right place at the right time, you might be able to use successive damage boosts to get the whole way through. I think it could maybe save some frames over taking two trips to the greenhouse, and maybe it could save a few frames over bothering to feed him if you do it two more times or maybe not. As far as skipping the greenhouse altogether, you can avoid the other Feed Me plant by going through dungeon 4, but I have no theories for how to get through him on the way back to get the black cube.

While we're talking about TAS optimizations I should mention that I've used a cookie into a cutscene at least once before.

If you use walk through walls to go straight to the boss of the greenhouse, then if you unlock the green key door after, it respawns the boss fight and you can get an extra skull and pointlessly recollect the plant food. This time the warp will be there and active throughout the duration of the fight. If you take it while he's blowing up, you miss out on those prizes.

r0bd0g

2015-10-04 06:08:41 am

OK here's my run.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that if you start doing sequence breaks in this game, you'll start noticing the password system makes assumptions, like, I've seen it delete my plant food, delete my shrinking potion, and give me an extra skull from assuming I gave the rose to Morticia.

JoshButro

2015-10-04 08:58:03 am

Congratz on the run, it is very impressive. I never thought this game could be beaten that quickly. I'm impressed. You have put a lot of work into this game and deserve tons of credit.

I need to study this run to see what i'm losing time-wise. I'm within a minute at Ma Hench, but end up 15 minutes over by the time Morobe is beaten, so i have some work to do.

Gratz man.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2015-10-04 10:31:30 am

2015-10-04 10:26:06 am

Thank you

But honestly I only did a couple runs, so there's still a lot of time to save. If I can get my hands on a new controller, I'd like to run this game some more. Implement those epic down-right movement strats.

JoshButro

2015-10-11 02:39:14 am

it's up to you if you want to submit this game to AGDQ16. my submission got rejected in under 4hours, so good luck lol

r0bd0g

2015-10-11 12:09:34 pm

Seems like they're not working on it right now so my submission has lasted a little longer lol.

JoshButro

2015-10-11 02:50:43 pm

They probably have a backlog of entries they have to figure out, or someone is taking a break from just rejecting them all Kappa. Anyways, salt aside. It would be awesome if you could run this at AGDQ. You have part more work into it, and discovering the glitch is all you, so you deserve to show it off.

r0bd0g

2015-10-11 07:31:30 pm

Nope lol. Maybe my pitch wasn't descriptive enough heh.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2015-10-21 02:01:05 pm

r0bd0g: 2015-10-21 02:01:04 pm

2015-10-15 01:07:16 pm

Couple more things I'd like to add. If you can get through dungeon 3 on only 1 white cookie, it's a great way to ensure you can skip turning in the rattle. It's definitely reasonable to skip the full restore on the iron key screen. And also, in my video, where it looked like I had the spider boss in an AI loop, I think I probably actually did, looking at it again. If you take damage at the right time while eating the 2nd blue cookie, you won't get turned around so you could keep wailing on him... but I want to check the fight again sometime and see if the 2nd blue cookie is actually necessary if you do constant damage with this method... Basically if you stand where I stood he can't push you around and keeps doing the same stuff (note only tried this one other time than what happened in my video so hopefully it's consistent). If you only need 1 blue cookie then I need to reconsider whether to use one on Jelleye.

EDIT: After messing with it, relying on the AI loop is risky. You gotta get him to start doing fast jumps while you're standing in the right place, but until then he can do whatever he wants if he wants to.

Couple more things I'd like to add. If you can get through dungeon 3 on only 1 white cookie, it's a great way to ensure you can skip turning in the rattle. It's definitely reasonable to skip the full restore on the iron key screen. And also, in my video, where it looked like I had the spider boss in an AI loop, I think I probably actually did, looking at it again. If you take damage at the right time while eating the 2nd blue cookie, you won't get turned around so you could keep wailing on him... but I want to check the fight again sometime and see if the 2nd blue cookie is actually necessary if you do constant damage with this method... Basically if you stand where I stood he can't push you around and keeps doing the same stuff (note only tried this one other time than what happened in my video so hopefully it's consistent). If you only need 1 blue cookie then I need to reconsider whether to use one on Jelleye.

EDIT: After messing with it, relying on the AI loop is risky. You gotta get him to start doing fast jumps while you're standing in the right place, but until then he can do whatever he wants if he wants to.

JoshButro

2015-11-06 09:44:01 am

Didnt know if you saw that Feasel is trying to get a Best of SNES going for next March. (similar to the Best of NES that BadBrakes just did). All games will be run regardless of game, runner popularity, etc, none of that crap to exclude people. So if you are interested and can stream it, you should volunteer this game and run it. The glitch surprises people so it would be an interesting watch. You have the better time and more optimized route, so you should run it first, (i could help commentate if you like). If you are unable to run it, i would be willing to run and have you commentate if available.
Just throwing out the Best of SNES idea so you know about it. Smiley

r0bd0g

2015-11-08 03:31:05 am

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Streaming is possible for me but it's difficult to get a good quality stream... I could maybe do it but a number of things would have to come together. I'd like to try but you ought to be prepared to step in, I suppose.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2015-12-24 11:05:00 pm

2015-12-24 11:03:58 pm

I compared the languages for something to do. French wins by 40 frames. Realistically it's more along the lines of a whole second due to less mashing. I was timing German too but stopped once it fell 4s behind. Fun-fact: The post-game text is so bad for French that if you were to include that, it would lose by 8 frames. (Every additional line of text in a box takes 8 frames to scroll away.)

JoshButro

2016-01-04 06:45:48 pm

Gratz on the 1:15:XX. I watched the run and was really impressed. If you can stream it for Best of SNES, please do. I submitted the game to Feasel for Best of SNES, saying you should have priority to stream it. If you can't, i will. I'd rather you run it, your playthrough looked amazing. (It is not suggested as a race, times are too different)

I saw some new things, i wanted to ask about. I will also watch some parts again to see more things.
1- The glitch location changed. I'm sure there is more to it than just doing it in a different location.
2- Jelleye fight has a good pattern, which allows for cookies conservation and use them at Morgue, and take out extra cookie trip.

Where did most of the 3 minutes come from, just optimization, or did something else change?

The stream looked really good. I'm back from vacation, so I will try to catch streams.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2016-01-08 08:41:08 am

r0bd0g: 2016-01-08 08:38:23 am

r0bd0g: 2016-01-08 08:37:01 am

r0bd0g: 2016-01-08 08:34:17 am

r0bd0g: 2016-01-08 08:32:29 am

2016-01-08 08:31:17 am

Hey thanks! I did another two attempts after that one. The 2nd attempt was over 40s faster after dungeon 3, and I probably saved even more time through dungeon 5, but Jelleye didn't cooperate and I died. Sad

So I still want to save another minute. Jelleye doesn't always cooperate, and when he doesn't, you have to use a Blue Cookie and then you have to actually fight Morobe for a little bit later (unless you can get him ASAP into the AI loop, which is even more luck-based than the Jelleye strat), so you'll probably lose some time to that. I didn't react in time with the blue cookie, and that's why I died.

I changed the glitch location because it's like 10s faster to do it there. It comes with an added risk because you can't take more than 3 hits on the way to the full restore (if you do, you have to stand around taking a total of 12 hits before the glitch will work again), and the enemies could possibly not cooperate. But most of the time save comes from having a new controller which is readily capable of moving in all 8 directions. And I tried to play faster and use some better strategies in certain places as well.

If you think my stream looks good enough, then I should hopefully be able to do Best of SNES, but... I don't have Internet at my place, so I will have to make a trip to my aunt's to do the run and it's over a 2-hour drive, so to go there and get back in time, I need a Saturday timeslot. I PM'd Feasel here on SDA (but maybe I did it wrong... it still looks to me like the private thread is there?) and got no response. Where should I go to submit it to him? (I must admit I'm scared of dying though; this game is tense!)

Hey thanks! I did another two attempts after that one. The 2nd attempt was over 40s faster after dungeon 3, and I probably saved even more time through dungeon 5, but Jelleye didn't cooperate and I died. :( So I still want to save another minute. Jelleye doesn't always cooperate, and when he doesn't, you have to use a Blue Cookie and then you have to actually fight Morobe for a little bit later (unless you can get him ASAP into the AI loop, which is even more luck-based than the Jelleye strat), so you'll probably lose some time to that. I didn't react in time with the blue cookie, and that's why I died.

I changed the glitch location because it's like 10s faster to do it there. It comes with an added risk because you can't take more than 3 hits on the way to the full restore (if you do, you have to stand around taking a total of 12 hits before the glitch will work again), and the enemies could possibly not cooperate. But most of the time save comes from having a new controller which is readily capable of moving in all 8 directions. And I tried to play faster and use some better strategies in certain places as well.

If you think my stream looks good enough, then I should hopefully be able to do Best of SNES, but... I don't have Internet at my place, so I will have to make a trip to my aunt's to do the run and it's over a 2-hour drive, so to go there and get back in time, I need a Saturday timeslot. I PM'd Feasel here on SDA (but maybe I did it wrong... it still looks to me like the private thread is there?) and got no response. Where should I go to submit it to him? (I must admit I'm scared of dying though; this game is tense!)

JoshButro

2016-01-09 09:18:17 pm

Stream looks good enough, if you messaged feasel, he is at AGDQ, so he probably didnt even see it yet. You may try Direct messaging him on Twitter (i forget what his name on there is, i'll look it up later). The schedule isnt due out until early February, so i would think that is plenty of time to work it out with him. I think he would be willing to schedule it, since this is an unknown game, that has been broken in the past 6 months.

The glitch location caught me by surprise. I'll have to try it.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2016-01-12 04:57:56 pm

2016-01-12 04:47:49 pm

Oh I messaged him back in early November....

You know, my poor poor internet probably can't handle streaming and using skype at the same time. I tried with a Paper Mario race and I had a pretty severe set of picnics somewhere in the middle of the race, and the skype call was pretty unlistenable. This was after I lowered the bitrate by 100 (already only 350). But I think somebody upstairs started watching youtube so maybe it'll be ok... You might want to be prepared to take over.

r0bd0g

Edit history:

r0bd0g: 2016-01-26 02:31:03 pm

2016-01-26 01:04:30 pm

Funny videos!
Read YT descriptions for more info.
I considered saving these to surprise you with during Best of SNES, but you need to be ready to take over if something comes up and I can't do it.