a little thievery, anyone?

2005-08-23 10:49:10 am

Yo. I'm obviously new to the new(-ish) SDA (I did some Run of the Whenever competitions back when it was hosted by planetquake.com, but I suck compared to other Quakers). It's awesome to see such a huge community around speed running. You guys rule.

Anyway, the reason I'm posting: I want to do a speed run of the original Thief: The Dark Project. That game is IMPRESSIVE to blitz through, and I got pretty good at it in my years of playing. I intend to do a "Normal" (the easiest setting) run, and by no means 100%, initially ('cause that's the most fun, if you ask me). In dicking around for half an hour or so, I got the first (Bafford) mission in 50 seconds (reliably), and I haven't really investigated all that much for better routes and such.

From what I gather after searching for a while here, nobody's done a Thief TDP run yet, and though it was mentioned in a Thief 3 thread (http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1121664418) I don't see anyone with concrete plans for doing one. What are everyone's thoughts?

Thread title:

Yo.  I'm obviously new to the new(-ish) SDA (I did some Run of the Whenever competitions back when it was hosted by planetquake.com, but I suck compared to other Quakers).  It's awesome to see such a huge community around speed running.  You guys rule.

Anyway, the reason I'm posting: I want to do a speed run of the original Thief: The Dark Project.  That game is IMPRESSIVE to blitz through, and I got pretty good at it in my years of playing.  I intend to do a "Normal" (the easiest setting) run, and by no means 100%, initially ('cause that's the most fun, if you ask me).  In dicking around for half an hour or so, I got the first (Bafford) mission in 50 seconds (reliably), and I haven't really investigated all that much for better routes and such.

From what I gather after searching for a while here, nobody's done a Thief TDP run yet, and though it was mentioned in a Thief 3 thread (http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1121664418) I don't see anyone with concrete plans for doing one.  What are everyone's thoughts?

Anarchic_Fox

2005-08-23 11:02:27 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

If you go to the Thief forum at TTLG and do some searching you can find many, many Thief speedrunning threads. Here is a compilation of some of them. The current best time is 52 minutes for Thief Gold, so a sub-40 T:TDP run is definitely possible... but you'll need to know some crazy tricks. I'd be happy to verify it; though this is my first post here, I've been active in the FM community for years, and can provide references. Grin

By the way, Thief has generated loads of custom missions over the years (I think the count is around 500), and some of them would be great for speedrunning. I'd love to see Thief get the same kind of speedrunning attention as Quake. Unfortunately, the game has no demo function, so that's probably impractical.

Ekarderif

2005-08-23 02:13:32 pm

Your almighty lordship

Quote:

Unfortunately, the game has no demo function, so that's probably impractical.

Yes it does. It just sucks.

speon

2005-08-23 03:28:14 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I for one, would be most grateful for any/all Thief speedruns. Smiley

toxite

2005-08-23 05:29:04 pm

Man. Those crazy people at TTLG. 40 seconds (which is the fastest claim I've seen for Bafford) is gonna be tough to even match. I just wish these people had recorded their runs so we had an idea what was going on.

So, I'm also new to video capture. Camtasia makes Thief run at like 10 fps on my computer, and I didn't bother trying with Fraps since it's extremely limited unless you buy it. Looks like VHS is my only option (anybody wanna donate a VCR? Wink

). Any other suggestions?

Pweisger

2005-08-23 08:18:39 pm

PwNzRd!

I am thinking of doing a speedrun of the Thief series, but since I probably can't beat those speedrunners on the site you mention, I will probably try a "grab all loot on the hardest difficulty" run, as fast as I can.

Anarchic_Fox

2005-08-23 09:35:17 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

Yes it does. It just sucks.

Whoa, really? How do you activate it, and what are its shortcomings?

Quote:

I am thinking of doing a speedrun of the Thief series, but since I probably can't beat those speedrunners on the site you mention, I will probably try a "grab all loot on the hardest difficulty" run, as fast as I can.

If you want to do that for Thief 2, be aware that there's one level with loot stuck in the scenery, so full loot would be impossible. And if you're going to go that route, would you be getting 100% (well, minus the bug in T:MA) pickpockets and secrets?

Also, another note: in The Lost City, if you have a speed potion you can jump across to the final tower from the beginning of the level. That could save minutes, and the TTLG runs didn't do it (I think), since they used the starting equipment only.

toxite

2005-08-23 09:48:56 pm

Quote:

I will probably try a "grab all loot on the hardest difficulty" run, as fast as I can.

An Expert/100% run would be HELL of impressive if it were done with any speed. I don't think I've got the balls to try it.

Quote:

Also, another note: in The Lost City, if you have a speed potion you can jump across to the final tower from the beginning of the level. That could save minutes, and the TTLG runs didn't do it (I think), since they used the starting equipment only.

This is good information. Thanks. Anyone else got route suggestions?

Ekarderif

2005-08-23 10:51:07 pm

Your almighty lordship

I don't remember how to activate it, but its shortcomings are that it completely messes up Lord Bafford's Mansion (a whole 50 seconds). The point is, don't use it.

michael

2005-08-24 07:35:58 am

Hey, I'm the guy who has the 40 second Bafford run from that TTLG thread.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71594&page=1&pp=25

I'm kinda sorta planning on doing a Thief Gold run, but it will be quite a while before it's finished, if I ever do it at all. With college and my job, I don't have much free time, and I usually don't spend it speedrunning. Also, Fraps slows the game down to like 10fps and the resulting video is pretty choppy as well. Plus I don't know anything about encoding and such.

Anyway, my times so far are...
Training - 1:39
Bafford's - 0:40
Cragscleft - 2:53
Bonehoard - 2:27
These are all on normal, without buying any gear. If you have any questions, please ask. I'd love to see a Thief speedrun of any kind, and would be happy to help.

Also, I captured a 41 second Bafford run, and godismygoldfish kindly compressed it from its ridiculous original size to 2 MB (this is from that same TTLG thread):
http://www.evilarmyfilms.com/random/baffords_speedrun_Thiefgold.avi

Yes, Thief has a demo funtion. And yes, it totally sucks.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47315&page=1&pp=25
Even if you managed to record a demo that consistently played correctly (which seems to be pure luck), you wouldn't be able to capture it, because the system hit would break playback. And apparently you couldn't share it either.

You don't need a speed potion for that Lost City jump btw. You can make it in two strafe jumps easily.

Hey, I'm the guy who has the 40 second Bafford run from that TTLG thread.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71594&page=1&pp=25

I'm kinda sorta planning on doing a Thief Gold run, but it will be quite a while before it's finished, if I ever do it at all.  With college and my job, I don't have much free time, and I usually don't spend it speedrunning.  Also, Fraps slows the game down to like 10fps and the resulting video is pretty choppy as well.  Plus I don't know anything about encoding and such.

Anyway, my times so far are...
Training - 1:39
Bafford's - 0:40
Cragscleft - 2:53
Bonehoard - 2:27
These are all on normal, without buying any gear.  If you have any questions, please ask.  I'd love to see a Thief speedrun of any kind, and would be happy to help.

Also, I captured a 41 second Bafford run, and godismygoldfish kindly compressed it from its ridiculous original size to 2 MB (this is from that same TTLG thread):
http://www.evilarmyfilms.com/random/baffords_speedrun_Thiefgold.avi

Yes, Thief has a demo funtion.  And yes, it totally sucks.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47315&page=1&pp=25  
Even if you managed to record a demo that consistently played correctly (which seems to be pure luck), you wouldn't be able to capture it, because the system hit would break playback.  And apparently you couldn't share it either.

You don't need a speed potion for that Lost City jump btw.  You can make it in two strafe jumps easily.

StrangenessDSS

Edit history:

StrangenessDSS: 2005-08-24 08:33:52 am

2005-08-24 08:30:33 am

Sleeping Terror

I did a bit of speedrunning on Thief 2 - got 2:52 on Running Interference and 2:51 on Shipping and Receiving (video), both Normal difficulty. But at the time, I didn't feel like continuing for various reasons.

The only workable recording method I found was to set my video card's analog output to show the same thing as my monitor, and capture that. Fraps doesn't catch the level intro or results screen, and Camtasia... I think Camtasia was just being weird and I didn't want to mess with it.

Anyway, good luck to anyone who is running. I like Thief, and I like games that can have separate runs for each level, 'cause they're easier to compete on.

speon

2005-08-24 03:38:00 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

If you want to do that for Thief 2, be aware that there's one level with loot stuck in the scenery, so full loot would be impossible. And if you're going to go that route, would you be getting 100% (well, minus the bug in T:MA) pickpockets and secrets?

I believe there is a fan made patch to fix that...

http://www.thief-thecircle.com/media/patches/

Stubgaard

2005-08-24 04:29:23 pm

Hey Ho Let's Go

Quote:

(I did some Run of the Whenever competitions back when it was hosted by planetquake.com, but I suck compared to other Quakers)

Sorry for going totally off topic here, but I was wondering which competitions you took part in? Your nickname dosn't ring a bell... Smiley

toxite

2005-08-24 06:44:07 pm

Quote:

If you have any questions, please ask. I'd love to see a Thief speedrun of any kind, and would be happy to help.

I will probably have a great many questions. And it'll also be a while before I get this off the ground (same boat with work/college). But I'll let you know where I'm getting stuck. Collaboration is always beneficial.

Quote:

Also, I captured a 41 second Bafford run, and godismygoldfish kindly compressed it from its ridiculous original size to 2 MB (this is from that same TTLG thread):

That rules. I never made it down that far in the topic to see the video. Smiley

Thanks.

Quote:

Sorry for going totally off topic here, but I was wondering which competitions you took part in? Your nickname dosn't ring a bell... Smiley

Yeah, that's 'cause I got fed up with sucking. Smiley

I'm no. 23 in the SDA Championship 2001 RunThis! competition's Nightmare section. I also remember running the 110m Hurdles and maybe the Palace of Eight, but my buddy Keith Fancher (whom I believe has his name in both of those) always had better times than me, so I don't think I ever submitted any of my demos for them. I mean... what's the point if you can't show up your friends? Wink

[quote]If you have any questions, please ask.  I'd love to see a Thief speedrun of any kind, and would be happy to help.[/quote]
I will probably have a great many questions.  And it'll also be a while before I get this off the ground (same boat with work/college).  But I'll let you know where I'm getting stuck.  Collaboration is always beneficial.

[quote]Also, I captured a 41 second Bafford run, and godismygoldfish kindly compressed it from its ridiculous original size to 2 MB (this is from that same TTLG thread):
[/quote]
That rules.  I never made it down that far in the topic to see the video.  :)  Thanks.

[quote]Sorry for going totally off topic here, but I was wondering which competitions you took part in? Your nickname dosn't ring a bell... :)[/quote]
Yeah, that's 'cause I got fed up with sucking. :)  I'm no. 23 in the SDA Championship 2001 RunThis! competition's Nightmare section.  I also remember running the 110m Hurdles and maybe the Palace of Eight, but my buddy Keith Fancher (whom I believe has his name in both of those) always had better times than me, so I don't think I ever submitted any of my demos for them.  I mean... [i]what's the point if you can't show up your friends?[/i]  ;)

toxite

2005-08-24 06:48:01 pm

Quote:

The only workable recording method I found was to set my video card's analog output to show the same thing as my monitor, and capture that. Fraps doesn't catch the level intro or results screen, and Camtasia... I think Camtasia was just being weird and I didn't want to mess with it.

Yeah, I think that's kinda what I'll end up doing. A buddy of mine has a computer set up for video capture, so I'll prolly hook up the S-Video out from my machine to his inputs and do the recording on his machine. Now I just have to convince him to give me his computer... Cheesy

Stubgaard

2005-08-24 08:59:06 pm

Hey Ho Let's Go

Quote:

Yeah, that's 'cause I got fed up with sucking. Smiley

I'm no. 23 in the SDA Championship 2001 RunThis! competition's Nightmare section. I also remember running the 110m Hurdles and maybe the Palace of Eight, but my buddy Keith Fancher (whom I believe has his name in both of those) always had better times than me, so I don't think I ever submitted any of my demos for them. I mean... what's the point if you can't show up your friends? Wink

Heh, I remember Keith! So you're Charles, eh... well, welcome to SDA, Charles Grin

P.S. We're running a new contest fairly soon, you should submit a demo! Wink

P.P.S. Good luck with the Thief run!

toxite

2005-08-24 09:14:18 pm

Quote:

Heh, I remember Keith! So you're Charles, eh... well, welcome to SDA, Charles Grin

P.S. We're running a new contest fairly soon, you should submit a demo! Wink

P.P.S. Good luck with the Thief run!

Yep, that's me. Thanks, man. Smiley

I just may try my hand at some new Quake competitions, if I feel like I've got time.

Anarchic_Fox

2005-08-24 10:30:21 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

You don't need a speed potion for that Lost City jump btw. You can make it in two strafe jumps easily.

Cool. But, how do you make it back across without the potion? Has someone figured out how to make the legendary "impossible jump"?

As for route suggestions, I don't know of any other specific ones. However, I certainly have some ideas... in Cragscleft, see if you can somehow make it up to the spot whereyou bring Basso down (if that's the starting area; I don't remember). In Assassins, maybe it's possible to get ahead of the assassins (it would probably fail the mission, though), and also follow the servant down into the basement. In THC, try to find a way across the bridge that's faster than shooting an arrow at the switch. In RTC, do the infamous skull trick (block the front door with a skull, grab the eye, exit out the front). Plus find a quick way to grab the eye; I heard you can keyhole up to the second floor, but I've never gotten that to work. In Strange Bedfellows, maybe there's a way to skip the raft ride (or is that not required on Normal?). Finally, Maw of Chaos probably has several shortcuts, despite being so linear.

Also have a good knowledge of the various tricks that work in Thief. Off the top of my head, some useful ones are strafe running, kangaroo jumping (building up speed with successive jumps), landing on an AI's head (no falling damage), riding a fire arrow by firing it really slowly, and keyholding (shooting yourself up high by leaning into a door, which I've never been able to do).

[quote]You don't need a speed potion for that Lost City jump btw.  You can make it in two strafe jumps easily.[/quote]
Cool.  But, how do you make it back across without the potion?  Has someone figured out how to make the legendary "impossible jump"?

As for route suggestions, I don't know of any other specific ones.  However, I certainly have some ideas... in Cragscleft, see if you can somehow make it up to the spot whereyou bring Basso down (if that's the starting area; I don't remember).  In Assassins, maybe it's possible to get ahead of the assassins (it would probably fail the mission, though), and also follow the servant down into the basement.  In THC, try to find a way across the bridge that's faster than shooting an arrow at the switch.  In RTC, do the infamous skull trick (block the front door with a skull, grab the eye, exit out the front).  Plus find a quick way to grab the eye; I heard you can keyhole up to the second floor, but I've never gotten that to work.  In Strange Bedfellows, maybe there's a way to skip the raft ride (or is that not required on Normal?).  Finally, Maw of Chaos probably has several shortcuts, despite being so linear.

Also have a good knowledge of the various tricks that work in Thief.  Off the top of my head, some useful ones are strafe running, kangaroo jumping (building up speed with successive jumps), landing on an AI's head (no falling damage), riding a fire arrow by firing it really slowly, and keyholding (shooting yourself up high by leaning into a door, which I've never been able to do).

StrangenessDSS

2005-08-25 05:31:49 am

Sleeping Terror

Ah, not the skull trick on RTC... I hate that. It's my favorite level in Thief 1, and it'd be boring to see it get skipped effortlessly.

toxite

2005-08-25 07:03:14 pm

Quote:

Ah, not the skull trick on RTC... I hate that. It's my favorite level in Thief 1, and it'd be boring to see it get skipped effortlessly.

I dunno... it seems like the the whole point of speed running is to minimize time, not do things you can get away without.

StrangenessDSS

2005-08-25 07:19:55 pm

Sleeping Terror

Yeah, I guess. But I still don't like it. Things like that are the main reason I stopped doing my runs... I didn't feel like using all the glitches I was learning about.

To me, the point of speedrunning is to create a challenge and overcome it. From that view, it's better to run all the way through RTC and leave through the proper exit than to block the doors open and skip 98% of the level.

Maybe sometime, if there's any interest, I'll do a "glitchless" Thief run. No blocking open the RTC doors, no reaching through closed doors to hit switches on the other side, no dropping objects on your head and climbing through them while they mysteriously levitate...

Anarchic_Fox

2005-08-25 10:12:56 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

The way I look at it, speedrunning already violates the spirit of Thief, and glitching (well, technically the skull thing isn't a "glitch") doesn't change that. In addition, it seems like the developer intended that to be a possible solution, since otherwise the area in front of the cathedral wouldn't trigger the missions's success. The fact that the trick was removed in TG (I think) indicates a change of mind, though.

StrangenessDSS

2005-08-27 11:42:02 am

Sleeping Terror

I don't think speedrunning violates the spirit of Thief. But, I don't worry about trying to define the spirit of a game. I just see it like this:

1) I have fun speedrunning Thief without abusing glitches.
2) I do not have fun speedrunning Thief while abusing glitches.

Therefore, if I did a run, it would be without glitches.

Pweisger

2005-08-27 08:58:01 pm

PwNzRd!

As unrealistic as Thief is, a no-glitch run would be more realistic. Yes, my mind hurts thinking about it also.

michael

2005-09-04 08:26:28 am

Quote:

Cool. But, how do you make it back across without the potion? Has someone figured out how to make the legendary "impossible jump"?

You can fire a rope arrow into one of those wooden rafters, mantle onto the rafter, mantle onto the roof, and then two strafe jumps can get you back to the tunnel. It's not an easy jump though. Actually, saying the jump to the tower could be made "easily" wasn't really accurate either. I had only tried that jump once to see if I could do it, and succeeded. Now that I've gone back to it (heh, I had never tried the return jump until you asked), I've found that it's not so easy. I fell on like half my tries.

As for your route suggestions...

Cragscleft - That is the starting area, and it's possible to get up there, but there's no way it would save time. It would almost certainly take longer than the normal water route, and you would have to wait for the elevator once you got inside anyway.

Assassins - The thugs are blind and deaf until their conversation ends, so getting ahead of them is no problem at all, but it still fails the mission if you get out of range. From the little testing I've done in Assassins, it seems that the thugs won't do their periodic stops if you stay close enough to them. That would save like thirty seconds. Assassins could really screw up a single segment run if you got the unlucky thug route.

I haven't even started thinking about any of those other missions.

Regarding the tricks you mentioned, I know about strafe running, kangaroo jumping (I call it strafe jumping), and landing on an AI's head. I know of keyhol(d?)ing, but have never tried it. I've never heard of that fire arrow trick. That's genius. Are there directions for it anywhere? Will it work with gas arrows?

[quote]
Cool.  But, how do you make it back across without the potion?  Has someone figured out how to make the legendary "impossible jump"?[/quote]
You can fire a rope arrow into one of those wooden rafters, mantle onto the rafter, mantle onto the roof, and then two strafe jumps can get you back to the tunnel.  It's not an easy jump though.  Actually, saying the jump to the tower could be made "easily" wasn't really accurate either.  I had only tried that jump once to see if I could do it, and succeeded.  Now that I've gone back to it (heh, I had never tried the return jump until you asked), I've found that it's not so easy.  I fell on like half my tries.

As for your route suggestions...

Cragscleft - That is the starting area, and it's possible to get up there, but there's no way it would save time.  It would almost certainly take longer than the normal water route, and you would have to wait for the elevator once you got inside anyway.

Assassins - The thugs are blind and deaf until their conversation ends, so getting ahead of them is no problem at all, but it still fails the mission if you get out of range.  From the little testing I've done in Assassins, it seems that the thugs won't do their periodic stops if you stay close enough to them.  That would save like thirty seconds.  Assassins could really screw up a single segment run if you got the unlucky thug route.

I haven't even started thinking about any of those other missions.

Regarding the tricks you mentioned, I know about strafe running, kangaroo jumping (I call it strafe jumping), and landing on an AI's head.  I know of keyhol(d?)ing, but have never tried it.  I've never heard of that fire arrow trick.  That's genius.  Are there directions for it anywhere?  Will it work with gas arrows?