7/4 time signature in video games

2008-04-03 02:12:18 am

O Zlda?

I always thought the most popular example of 7/4 was Money by pink floyd, which, other than the breakdown portion that starts and ends with guitar solos which is 4/4, follows the 7/4 the whole song while making a really nice flow about it... the sudden cutoff doesn't seem out of place and the song has a groove all its own.

I have had trouble explaining time signatures to people in the past... I once made a recording to demonstrate that the Song of Storms was 3/4.

Led Zeppelin have some notable different signatures too... the main lick of The Ocean is 15/8 (or 15/x, whatever you want to call it), while Fool in the Rain has 12/8, which has a really nice flow to it (1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3), transitioning to calypso 4/4 in the middle.

Ocarina has a few good examples. The bolero of fire is an example of a song that's easy to see what 2/4 is, in relation to 4/4... that slight difference. Serinade of water is more or less free time with undertones of 6/4.

And Let's not forget the somewhat well known song Morning has Broken, which uses 9/4 for most of it.

I always thought the most popular example of 7/4 was Money by pink floyd, which, other than the breakdown portion that starts and ends with guitar solos which is 4/4, follows the 7/4 the whole song while making a really nice flow about it... the sudden cutoff doesn't seem out of place and the song has a groove all its own.

I have had trouble explaining time signatures to people in the past... I once made a recording to demonstrate that the Song of Storms was 3/4.

Led Zeppelin have some notable different signatures too... the main lick of The Ocean is 15/8 (or 15/x, whatever you want to call it), while Fool in the Rain has 12/8, which has a really nice flow to it (1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3), transitioning to calypso 4/4 in the middle.

Ocarina has a few good examples. The bolero of fire is an example of a song that's easy to see what 2/4 is, in relation to 4/4... that slight difference. Serinade of water is more or less free time with undertones of 6/4.

And Let's not forget the somewhat well known song Morning has Broken, which uses 9/4 for most of it.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2008-04-03 05:30:11 am

2008-04-03 05:27:50 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Pink Floyd's Money is indeed the classic 7/4 example. The most recent well-known (even if it's not famous for being 7/4 like Money) example of a popular rock song is probably the middle section of Tool's Schism, unless there's something newer I don't know about.

Quote:

M:I's theme goes back and forth between 5/4 and 6/4.

What I'm about to say is funny to me because it came up recently, but not as a result of this topic. (It has to do with a run going up soon.)

My favorite VG song is actually in 5/4 and 6/4. (last segment, starts at 7:35) I already have the mp3 uploaded here, although it's a lot better with in-game context. Bonus: unlike Ridley from Metroid, it sounds nothing like Mission Impossible. Tongue

Normand Nubcake

Edit history:

Normand Nubcake: 2008-04-03 06:54:37 am

2008-04-03 06:54:16 am

Quote:

Ocarina has a few good examples. The bolero of fire is an example of a song that's easy to see what 2/4 is, in relation to 4/4... that slight difference. Serinade of water is more or less free time with undertones of 6/4.

Actually, the bolero of fire is 3/4. And yes, serenade of water's undertones make the song sound like 6/4, but I'm pretty sure it's also 3/4.

To keep Zelda-related, the Earth God's Lyric from Wind Waker is 9/8. Heh, most Zelda songs have simple time signatures though... Market is 12/8, but I think that's all I can come up with.

sunburstbasser

2008-04-03 07:09:24 am

Silver Hawk!

12/8 is (usually) pretty simple; its just 4/4 divided into triplets rather than duplets.

Tool has loads of complex polyrhythms and meters. "Lateralus" alone has sections in 12/8, 5/4, 5/8, and layered 6/8 and 5/8.

WarMech

2008-04-03 07:21:54 pm

Seriously, this is the best thread on SDA. Here's what I could come up with:

Danger (Boss Theme) – Secret of Mana
http://dl1.ffshrine.org/soundtracks/dl/105/235677/Secret_of_Mana_Original_Soundtrack/19-danger.mp3

I tried my hardest to deduce a time signature from it, but it's all over the place.

Title Screen - Solstice
http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/nintendo/nes/solstice_intro.mid

Most of the song is written in 6/8 but the beat of the song changes from 2 to 3 every couple of measures. The crazy scales and arpeggios are a plus too.

Have you ever heard the fully orchestrated version ofthe FFVI Aria Di Mezzo Caratte (Opera House Theme)? They have a decent 6-minute version on the soundtrack but an even better 23:00 version. I wish I had a link to it, but I have a feeling most of us know how to find free mp3's. Roll Eyes

Here's a list of good Video Game Music Sites for those who don't already know them:

http://www.vgmusic.com/
http://bluelaguna.net/
http://gh.ffshrine.org/soundtracks.php

On a non-game related piece, check out "Birds of Fire" by Mahavishnu Orchestra if you want your head to really spin.

Seriously, this is the best thread on SDA.  Here's what I could come up with:

Danger (Boss Theme) – Secret of Mana
http://dl1.ffshrine.org/soundtracks/dl/105/235677/Secret_of_Mana_Original_Soundtrack/19-danger.mp3

I tried my hardest to deduce a time signature from it, but it's all over the place.

Title Screen - Solstice
http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/nintendo/nes/solstice_intro.mid

Most of the song is written in 6/8 but the beat of the song changes from 2 to 3 every couple of measures.  The crazy scales and arpeggios are a plus too.

Have you ever heard the fully orchestrated version ofthe FFVI Aria Di Mezzo Caratte (Opera House Theme)?  They have a decent 6-minute version on the soundtrack but an even better 23:00 version.  I wish I had a link to it, but I have a feeling most of us know how to find free mp3's.  ::)

Here's a list of good Video Game Music Sites for those who don't already know them:

http://www.vgmusic.com/
http://bluelaguna.net/
http://gh.ffshrine.org/soundtracks.php

On a non-game related piece, check out "Birds of Fire" by Mahavishnu Orchestra if you want your head to really spin.

sunburstbasser

2008-04-04 03:14:04 am

Silver Hawk!

What I got from Danger:

The intro is 4/4 (yes!). Its divided into 16ths, with accents placed in ways to hide the actual beat. Counting to 8 fits it well.

One section is written in a recurring 7/4, 4/4, 7/4, 6/4 pattern. Or, if you prefer, 11/4 and 13/4.

Because of all the notes going on, it can be hard to follow the beat in a piece like that.

yoshmaster5

2008-04-04 04:09:49 am

Also tenkiforecast

Well, I know one FF piece in 5/4 for sure...

Don't Be Afraid -- FF8, 5/4

I know, because I have sheet music. Grin

BDA

2008-04-06 05:15:18 am

Let's fight to computer!

Quote:

On a non-game related piece, check out "Birds of Fire" by Mahavishnu Orchestra if you want your head to really spin.

"Birds of Fire" is (mostly) in 18/8. Just FYI.

RaneofSOTN

2008-04-06 06:57:24 am

I want off the ride....

Quote:

Have you ever heard the fully orchestrated version ofthe FFVI Aria Di Mezzo Caratte (Opera House Theme)? They have a decent 6-minute version on the soundtrack but an even better 23:00 version. I wish I had a link to it, but I have a feeling most of us know how to find free mp3's. Roll Eyes

Honestly i wish I could've said I heard the live version the one time they put on the FF concert in LA but i didn't know of it til it was a bit too late (had money to go and everything!! ended up just crying later). anyway; I have only heard the 6 minute version... I believe I have the Aria Di Mezzo FORTE on my N-generation CD (of ff music) as well as some other game musics laying around.

I wouldn't really dare touch much, but I do like the Anime .hack//sign music, though it barely has anything to do wtih game music.

as for 7/4 5/4 i can't trace music that well. I can read it and play it, but as for pointing out music i'm lost in that department.

Lag.Com

2008-04-06 10:40:04 am

sda loyalist

I'm also a big fan of the .hack//SIGN soundtrack, though I don't like anime or that style of music in general.

Danger from Secret of Mana and Walking from Solstice both have 5 stars on my playlist. I'm very fond of harsh sounds and complex/hidden harmony and dissonance. Score one for Harmony of Dissonance, then.

Emptyeye

2008-04-06 09:11:33 pm

Talk to the Hand

Somehow, the second Mother Brain fight from Super Metroid has escaped mention (Of a 7/4 example) until now.

For shame, people, for shame.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2008-04-06 10:13:35 pm

2008-04-06 10:10:19 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Wow you're right.

Also, Solstice's music is awesome.

Lag.Com

2008-04-06 10:49:15 pm

sda loyalist

I only just found out, but Solstice's music is by Tim Follin of the famous Follin Brothers, who did the excellent soundtrack to Plok amongst other things.

I apologise for turning this into a 'recommendations thread', but honestly, the original topic is quite easy to exhaust. Smiley

DRybes

Edit history:

DRybes: 2008-04-10 09:02:22 am

2008-04-10 09:00:30 am

O Zlda?

If you're the type of person who's going to be on SDA reading and replying to threads, and you understand how to hear time signatures, this thread _rocks_. Music enthusiasts and musicians alike love unusual time signatures as out-of-the-ordinary, and thanks to this thread I know now that more games than I thought have their fair share of crazy awesome signatures.

I know it's cheating, but free time usually destroys even the most oddly timed songs. It's just not as impressive as having all this chaos that's subtly actually following strict rules.

What really gets me is songs that layer different times, though... listening for the longer one to 'cycle' around so that every x measures it starts its beat same as the other time... I can't really explain this any better, listen to 5/4 by Gorillaz for an example. There, they use a simple riff on guitar in 5/4 and keep playing it while a steady 4/4 drum track comes in and completely messes it all up... or does it... if you have no problem following that or don't like it, fusion type bands like Meshuggah tend to do that, but on a much more complicated level.

I like the stories behind why people use these odd signatures, too... a lot of times it just comes to them, rather than necessarily trying to sound different or choosing an odd signature to fit with a specific style the song is supposed to follow. Keeping in my habit of mentioning Led Zeppelin too much in this thread, I think the story goes that Black Dog was written by John Paul Jones to be in some really unusual time signature, and Bonham was annoyed/disgusted by it, or just drunk or something, and started drumming plain old 4/4. The rhythmic cacophony between the timing of the main riff and the drums coming in where they do is awesome... you can tell something complicated was at least supposed to be going on Roll Eyes

On a related note, does it bother you as much as me when you're listening to a song, thinking you're following the beat, and then discover you're one or more whole beats, or worse a fraction of a beat, off? I want to say it's usually not intentional on the composer's part. A song you're used to can sound completely different if you decide to stress different beats in your head as you hear it... sometimes it just happens because of a somewhat confusing intro. Incubus's Vitamin is probably the best example... at first you're thinking beat 1 is on the first note of the riff, and the way the cymbals come in, they even seem to confirm your suspicion... then wham, the bass comes in and catches you completely off guard, until you learn the song's supposed to start its beat on the second note of that riff.

*shuts up and tries to think of more game music to talk about instead of pop and rock songs*

If you're the type of person who's going to be on SDA reading and replying to threads, and you understand how to hear time signatures, this thread _rocks_. Music enthusiasts and musicians alike love unusual time signatures as out-of-the-ordinary, and thanks to this thread I know now that more games than I thought have their fair share of crazy awesome signatures.

I know it's cheating, but free time usually destroys even the most oddly timed songs. It's just not as impressive as having all this chaos that's subtly actually following strict rules.

What really gets me is songs that layer different times, though... listening for the longer one to 'cycle' around so that every x measures it starts its beat same as the other time... I can't really explain this any better, listen to 5/4 by Gorillaz for an example. There, they use a simple riff on guitar in 5/4 and keep playing it while a steady 4/4 drum track comes in and completely messes it all up... or does it... if you have no problem following that or don't like it, fusion type bands like Meshuggah tend to do that, but on a much more complicated level.

I like the stories behind why people use these odd signatures, too... a lot of times it just comes to them, rather than necessarily trying to sound different or choosing an odd signature to fit with a specific style the song is supposed to follow. Keeping in my habit of mentioning Led Zeppelin too much in this thread, I think the story goes that Black Dog was written by John Paul Jones to be in some really unusual time signature, and Bonham was annoyed/disgusted by it, or just drunk or something, and started drumming plain old 4/4. The rhythmic cacophony between the timing of the main riff and the drums coming in where they do is awesome... you can tell something complicated was at least supposed to be going on ::)

On a related note, does it bother you as much as me when you're listening to a song, thinking you're following the beat, and then discover you're one or more whole beats, or worse a fraction of a beat, off? I want to say it's usually not intentional on the composer's part. A song you're used to can sound completely different if you decide to stress different beats in your head as you hear it... sometimes it just happens because of a somewhat confusing intro. Incubus's Vitamin is probably the best example... at first you're thinking beat 1 is on the first note of the riff, and the way the cymbals come in, they even seem to confirm your suspicion... then wham, the bass comes in and catches you completely off guard, until you learn the song's supposed to start its beat on the second note of that riff.

*shuts up and tries to think of more game music to talk about instead of pop and rock songs*

sunburstbasser

2008-04-11 06:39:14 pm

Silver Hawk!

My favorite layered rock song is Tool's "Lateralus." In one section the piece is in both 5/8 and 6/8.

Most of Zuntata's music tends to be of the dance/rock variety but I would wager they have some odd stuff as well. I just can't think of one offhand.

Essentia

2008-04-17 11:08:49 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

Just found another 7/4 song (I knew there was one from FFXII):

Final Fantasy XII - The Forgotten Capital (or Necrohol of Nabudis, song #407)
http://bluelaguna.net/music/final-fantasy-xii-12-ost-soundtrack/mp3s.php

bmn

Edit history:

bmn: 2008-04-18 12:53:11 am

2008-04-18 12:51:24 am

Quote:

On a related note, does it bother you as much as me when you're listening to a song, thinking you're following the beat, and then discover you're one or more whole beats, or worse a fraction of a beat, off? I want to say it's usually not intentional on the composer's part. A song you're used to can sound completely different if you decide to stress different beats in your head as you hear it... sometimes it just happens because of a somewhat confusing intro. Incubus's Vitamin is probably the best example... at first you're thinking beat 1 is on the first note of the riff, and the way the cymbals come in, they even seem to confirm your suspicion... then wham, the bass comes in and catches you completely off guard, until you learn the song's supposed to start its beat on the second note of that riff.

You get that quite a lot in genres like trance, where they'll typically start with only bass and maybe percussion, and the bassline doesn't start on the first beat of a bar. I quite like it myself.

[quote]
On a related note, does it bother you as much as me when you're listening to a song, thinking you're following the beat, and then discover you're one or more whole beats, or worse a fraction of a beat, off? I want to say it's usually not intentional on the composer's part. A song you're used to can sound completely different if you decide to stress different beats in your head as you hear it... sometimes it just happens because of a somewhat confusing intro. Incubus's Vitamin is probably the best example... at first you're thinking beat 1 is on the first note of the riff, and the way the cymbals come in, they even seem to confirm your suspicion... then wham, the bass comes in and catches you completely off guard, until you learn the song's supposed to start its beat on the second note of that riff.
[/quote]

You get that quite a lot in genres like trance, where they'll typically start with only bass and maybe percussion, and the bassline doesn't start on the first beat of a bar. I quite like it myself.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2008-07-27 12:51:42 am

2008-07-27 12:25:21 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Ok, recently heard the OST for Death Smiles for no reason, and while I can't really judge yet since I haven't played it, it seems to be definitely Namiki's best since Armed Police Batrider (since all the ones since then were crap, and this one is alright). Actually, the song I'm about to link is easily my favorite of his since leaving Raizing. And hmm, the second best is 6/4.

Anyway, it's 7/4 for the first section, 4/4 later.

Death Smiles - stage 6 is what it says in the link at least

here is an mp3, the title is The Witch of the Bottomless Swamp

The funny part about this is as soon as I heard this song, it reminded me of a song from Valkyrie Profile 2. I checked it out and lo and behold, that song is also 7/4 at first into 4/4 later.

Valkyrie Profile 2 - two mages (Walther and Gyne) fight
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=walther+gyne+-dallas&search_type=&aq=f (there's a run on SDA, but I'm too lazy to figure out which segment this fight is)
I didn't audit any of those vids, but in TAF's speedrun, the fight is over before you even hear anything. At any rate, mp3

Edit to say: obviously there's some evil magician 7/4 theme yes

Ok, recently heard the OST for Death Smiles for no reason, and while I can't really judge yet since I haven't played it, it seems to be definitely Namiki's best since Armed Police Batrider (since all the ones since then were crap, and this one is alright). Actually, the song I'm about to link is easily my favorite of his since leaving Raizing. And hmm, the second best is 6/4.

Anyway, it's 7/4 for the first section, 4/4 later.

Death Smiles - stage 6 is what it says in the link at least
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD7s3U0NcBg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD7s3U0NcBg[/url]
[url=http://enhasa.quandra.org/07%20The%20Witch%20of%20the%20Bottomless%20Swamp.mp3]here[/url] is an mp3, the title is The Witch of the Bottomless Swamp

The funny part about this is as soon as I heard this song, it reminded me of a song from Valkyrie Profile 2. I checked it out and lo and behold, that song is also 7/4 at first into 4/4 later.

Valkyrie Profile 2 - two mages (Walther and Gyne) fight
[url=http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=walther+gyne+-dallas&search_type=&aq=f]http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=walther+gyne+-dallas&search_type=&aq=f[/url] (there's a run on SDA, but I'm too lazy to figure out which segment this fight is)
I didn't audit any of those vids, but in TAF's speedrun, the fight is over before you even hear anything. At any rate, [url=http://enhasa.quandra.org/309%20Dancing%20without%20Malice%20or%20Mercy.mp3]mp3[/url]

Edit to say: obviously there's some evil magician 7/4 theme yes

Josh the Funkdoc

2008-07-28 11:47:39 am

spread the dirt to the populace

sorry for taking this ot, but so what does like skinny puppy qualify as? i'll link a few different examples

Convulsion (Instrumental version for the purposes of this thread) -

Seems like a pretty normal beat at times, but not at others. Come to think of it, the vocals are probably what make it seem odd to me.

Knowhere? (rumor is the vocalist suffered a cocaine overdose in the middle of this recording, fwiw) -

Probably their "noisiest" song ever - unless you count the next example as a "song". =P

Download -

Is this even music anymore? I don't know, but whatever it is, I think I like it.

Worlock (HELLA NOT WORK SAFE) -

I think this represents a more "standard" structure than the others, and it's the most widely-beloved track among their fanbase. Never went crazy for it myself, oddly enough, but I suspect someone like Kevin might like this.

-Josh

sorry for taking this ot, but so what does like skinny puppy qualify as?  i'll link a few different examples

Convulsion (Instrumental version for the purposes of this thread) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oXi90-RoYI&feature=related

Seems like a pretty normal beat at times, but not at others.  Come to think of it, the vocals are probably what make it seem odd to me.

Knowhere? (rumor is the vocalist suffered a cocaine overdose in the middle of this recording, fwiw) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ60OOkBUVw

Probably their "noisiest" song ever - unless you count the next example as a "song". =P

Download - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecY6_zEwmsk

Is this even music anymore?  I don't know, but whatever it is, I think I like it.

Worlock (HELLA NOT WORK SAFE) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l5oXI9BUZ8

I think this represents a more "standard" structure than the others, and it's the most widely-beloved track among their fanbase.  Never went crazy for it myself, oddly enough, but I suspect someone like Kevin might like this.

-Josh

Acryte

2008-07-29 03:46:15 pm

Zelda Scientist®

idk time signatures and stuff but I think beatiful night is in 4/4 and goes to something else later at 52 or so and I threw in some other stuff that has non-4/4 signatures I think :S
not sure if any are 7/4 tho. not sure if monsters in dung is 4/4 or not...

but Im pretty sure Melody in an acient town, the ocean, casino and balloon's flight are all non standard. Balloon's flight especially is quite different
http://files.filefront.com/Dragon+Warrior+Monsterszip/;11274286;/fileinfo.html

coolcat

2008-08-14 05:29:01 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from Lag.Com:

Solstice's music is by Tim Follin of the famous Follin Brothers, who did the excellent soundtrack to Plok amongst other things.

speaking of which, the Beach theme from Plok is partially in 7/8, so there's another one to add to the list:

ShinerCCC

2008-09-01 05:26:13 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

You guys are missing quite a bit

Ducktales: moon starts in 15/16
"omg stuff is collapsing" in Final Fantasy V has a part that's like 3/4 + 2/4 + 3/4 + 3/4
boss battle in FFV has two measures of 7/4, then it's 8/4 and back to 4/4
Battle of Big Bridge from FFV starts in 6/4, and then that other part is a measure of 9/4, the next time it's 12/4. But the rest of the song is in 4/4

Chrono Cross has lots of odd meter in its music, but I hated the game so I didn't get that far.
the mansion music is like 5/8 + 7/8
the regular battle music is 9/8, took me forever to figure that out

Chrono Trigger, the sad piano theme in that one dome in 2300 is in 5/4
Lavos Core is mostly in 4/4 but has a refrain of two measures of 3/4

Stage 8-5 in Gradius Galaxies changes meter a lot, it just kind of changes between 3/4 and 4/4 whenever it wants to give suggestions of 11/4 or 7/4 and stuff. I never analyzed Stage 5 but that one might be weird as well.

I swear there's a measure of 15/16 in the descending thing of Dragon Warrior 4's battle theme. But that middle section that's all like a polka is 4/4 + 3/4 + 4/4 + 5/8 + 7/4 or something

Cecil's theme from Final Fantasy 4 has a section of 7/4, this one should be super obvious

more later as I remember them

Glad to see other people acknowledging Tim Follin and virt, too.

You guys are missing quite a bit

Ducktales: moon starts in 15/16
"omg stuff is collapsing" in Final Fantasy V has a part that's like 3/4 + 2/4 + 3/4 + 3/4
boss battle in FFV has two measures of 7/4, then it's 8/4 and back to 4/4
Battle of Big Bridge from FFV starts in 6/4, and then that other part is a measure of 9/4, the next time it's 12/4. But the rest of the song is in 4/4

Chrono Cross has lots of odd meter in its music, but I hated the game so I didn't get that far.
the mansion music is like 5/8 + 7/8
the regular battle music is 9/8, took me forever to figure that out

Chrono Trigger, the sad piano theme in that one dome in 2300 is in 5/4
Lavos Core is mostly in 4/4 but has a refrain of two measures of 3/4

Stage 8-5 in Gradius Galaxies changes meter a lot, it just kind of changes between 3/4 and 4/4 whenever it wants to give suggestions of 11/4 or 7/4 and stuff. I never analyzed Stage 5 but that one might be weird as well.

I swear there's a measure of 15/16 in the descending thing of Dragon Warrior 4's battle theme. But that middle section that's all like a polka is 4/4 + 3/4 + 4/4 + 5/8 + 7/4 or something

Cecil's theme from Final Fantasy 4 has a section of 7/4, this one should be super obvious

more later as I remember them

Glad to see other people acknowledging Tim Follin and virt, too.

Enhasa

2008-09-03 08:18:55 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

This topic was custom-made for Shiner.

Edit:

Quote from ShinerCCC:

the regular battle music is 9/8, took me forever to figure that out

Someone listening to that song over and over again is the most horrifying thing I have ever imagined, thanks you jerk.

Lag.Com

Edit history:

Lag.Com: 2008-09-04 05:44:00 am

2008-09-03 10:03:27 am

sda loyalist

Surely the regular battle music is 7/8 and occasionally 9/8?

But yeah, not his finest work haha.

Edit: Actually on second thoughts you're probably right. I don't really listen to it very often (although there is a Chrono Cross run in verification now... >.>)

ShinerCCC

2008-09-04 02:02:33 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Don't you force me to make a click track for that beast!

Also whoever said Lufia 2's boss theme has 7/4 is totally wrong, I think everything in that game is 4/4