My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: Doesn't exist yet
Aleksey 'ortoslon' Zubkov's run
Verifier Responses
Decision: Accept
Reason: Interesting to have a run of a game with randomly generated levels.
Aleksey 'ortoslon' Zubkov's run
Verifier Responses
Quote:
Alright, here are my comments.
A/V quality
Video is alright, audio is somewhat clipped, but nothing to complain about. There's no music, which some people might find confusing.
Cheating
None, as far as I can tell. Everything the player does is doable. At certain points he changes direction for no apparent reason, but that is explainable by certain patterns in level generation that are easily noticeable after several hundreds' worth of attempts. Following these patterns is rather reliable most of the time.
Play quality
In short, very good. There are several mistakes and some instances of cautious play when a more aggressive approach could have been taken, but realistically this time is incredibly hard to beat due to the amount of random factors involved. As much as a single badly rolled level can throw your time off by up to 15 seconds easily, so this game is actually more about luck manipulation (and actual luck) than anything else, but its solid platforming engine still requires pretty fast reflexes to control efficiently.
By my calculations, the practical limit for any% is at around 3:15–3:25. Theoretical limit (that is, with absolutely perfect level geometry, strictly aggressive play with no mistakes, and all relevant items directly on your way) would be at around 2:35–2:45, but this can only be achieved with segmenting, which isn't really possible in Spelunky without external tools.
As for absolute counts… There are only three public reports of players getting under 4 minutes. One of them is the author, another is myself (with 3:53), and the third is eguee, mossmouth.com forum member, who got 3:33 (which is the second-best time known at the moment, although no video is available for it). A skilled player with average luck would finish in 5-6 minutes, while a non-speed-oriented playthrough can take anywhere from 20 minutes to over an hour. Getting below 4 minutes takes skill regardless of luck involved due to the amount of decisions that have to be taken in a very short time frame as the game is chock full of potential stupid deaths.
Verdict
Definite accept. This game is challenging to beat, let alone speedrun, and the author does a good job of it while still leaving a leeway for improvement. Here's to hoping that another high quality freeware game run joins SDA catalog.
(Go do that sub-4 minute low% now!)
A/V quality
Video is alright, audio is somewhat clipped, but nothing to complain about. There's no music, which some people might find confusing.
Cheating
None, as far as I can tell. Everything the player does is doable. At certain points he changes direction for no apparent reason, but that is explainable by certain patterns in level generation that are easily noticeable after several hundreds' worth of attempts. Following these patterns is rather reliable most of the time.
Play quality
In short, very good. There are several mistakes and some instances of cautious play when a more aggressive approach could have been taken, but realistically this time is incredibly hard to beat due to the amount of random factors involved. As much as a single badly rolled level can throw your time off by up to 15 seconds easily, so this game is actually more about luck manipulation (and actual luck) than anything else, but its solid platforming engine still requires pretty fast reflexes to control efficiently.
By my calculations, the practical limit for any% is at around 3:15–3:25. Theoretical limit (that is, with absolutely perfect level geometry, strictly aggressive play with no mistakes, and all relevant items directly on your way) would be at around 2:35–2:45, but this can only be achieved with segmenting, which isn't really possible in Spelunky without external tools.
As for absolute counts… There are only three public reports of players getting under 4 minutes. One of them is the author, another is myself (with 3:53), and the third is eguee, mossmouth.com forum member, who got 3:33 (which is the second-best time known at the moment, although no video is available for it). A skilled player with average luck would finish in 5-6 minutes, while a non-speed-oriented playthrough can take anywhere from 20 minutes to over an hour. Getting below 4 minutes takes skill regardless of luck involved due to the amount of decisions that have to be taken in a very short time frame as the game is chock full of potential stupid deaths.
Verdict
Definite accept. This game is challenging to beat, let alone speedrun, and the author does a good job of it while still leaving a leeway for improvement. Here's to hoping that another high quality freeware game run joins SDA catalog.
(Go do that sub-4 minute low% now!)
Quote:
Watched the YouTube upload of the Spelunky run.
Aside from the stupid music overlayed, the audio seems fine. I can't tell if the video is running too fast or not, so I loaded up Spelunky to test the running speeds. I guess my computer runs a bit slow, but the running speed seems a little fast to follow, even when I'm at 1x resolution/low details. It's fishy, but I can't verify that on my own. Maybe if other verifiers pick up on it it will be worth checking out in further detail.
For those who don't know, Spelunky uses procedurally generated maps in sets of 4 stages per level with 4 levels total. Some of the maps are specially instanced with certain traps or bosses, and are preceded by a message to warn the player. The great thing about this is that you can always keep reloading to get new maps. The bad thing is that each map will need some degree of trial and error to find the exit, and that's very apparent with the constant mild wrong turns and stoppages. It's enough that it gets on my nerves and that I wish the runner would have kept trying for simpler maps, but there is a limit to the amount of map QC you can do whilst also getting good luck.
1: Very straightforward. Just one tiny stall when the runner went the wrong way. Good jump on the snake at the end so as not to slow down.
2: Fairly flawless as is. The snake kill was a fraction of a second slow down, but it's cool with me.
3: Silly jump at the end for no reason, but it's not much time lost... again.
4: Bad hang at the intro and wrong turn at one point. I get the feeling that my whole critique will be based on a lot of small errors like this.
5: Ballsy theft of the Jetpack will make up for the dumb jumping errors preceding it.
6: Could have jetpacked over the maneater. Runner got really lucky by dropping down on the merchant at the exit, or he would have totally owned Spelunky with the Shotgun. I would have liked to see him grab the gun if he could, but it flew way out of the way. Bad luck.
7: Good run. Seeing this game boiled down so much loses a lot of the appeal.
8: Wrong turn loses a second or so.
9: The thing with the ice levels is that you have the highest chance of getting the exit on the lower right, followed by some isolated death pit exits in the middle. It's good that they showed up here a lot.
10: Hung a hard left for no reason, probably due to assuming there would be no gap. I can't tell if knocking out the Yeti would have been faster than trying to dodge it.
11: Nothing to say, really.
12: Wrong turn loses a second.
13: Bombing the spike trap seemed like a big waste of time when the runner could have used a Jetpack to simply hover over it. I've done it myself a lot, so I know it's possible, albeit risky. It's a loss of maybe 5 seconds.
14: Got lucky with the Mummy walking in to the bomb when it did. Too bad, though, because it drops this wicked scepter that owns enemies that get in your way if you kill it otherwise. I would have liked to see it walk to the left so that the runner could mega-stomp it's head in less time than the bomb took. Once again, it's a lot of luck stuff.
15: Running from the spike trap was dumb. Pushing the block was too. I'd say a little over a second was lost. I know these seem trivial, but when the levels are only a handful of seconds as is, it adds up quickly.
16: Token smashy boss fight that we've all seen before. This whole fight would have been faster if the runner had that scepter. It all went quickly, all things considered. It could be faster, but this is the end of a high risk run, so it's not so bad. Maybe 4 seconds lost here? The improvements come from baiting the boss better so that he stomps in the same two sections frequently. Almost dying at the end was funny, though.
So, with a total time of 3:39, this is impressive. However, I would say that there's around 15 seconds of time that could be saved with better maps and whatnot. I know it's picky, but it's worth mentioning. I'll approve the run, but I hope that the runner keeps at a better time. 3:30 is totally within his grasp. Hell, saving just 9 seconds over a run that got the cape instead should be indicative of this.
Also, speedy runs that also get the kill and gold and damsel secrets would be fun to watch.
Aside from the stupid music overlayed, the audio seems fine. I can't tell if the video is running too fast or not, so I loaded up Spelunky to test the running speeds. I guess my computer runs a bit slow, but the running speed seems a little fast to follow, even when I'm at 1x resolution/low details. It's fishy, but I can't verify that on my own. Maybe if other verifiers pick up on it it will be worth checking out in further detail.
For those who don't know, Spelunky uses procedurally generated maps in sets of 4 stages per level with 4 levels total. Some of the maps are specially instanced with certain traps or bosses, and are preceded by a message to warn the player. The great thing about this is that you can always keep reloading to get new maps. The bad thing is that each map will need some degree of trial and error to find the exit, and that's very apparent with the constant mild wrong turns and stoppages. It's enough that it gets on my nerves and that I wish the runner would have kept trying for simpler maps, but there is a limit to the amount of map QC you can do whilst also getting good luck.
1: Very straightforward. Just one tiny stall when the runner went the wrong way. Good jump on the snake at the end so as not to slow down.
2: Fairly flawless as is. The snake kill was a fraction of a second slow down, but it's cool with me.
3: Silly jump at the end for no reason, but it's not much time lost... again.
4: Bad hang at the intro and wrong turn at one point. I get the feeling that my whole critique will be based on a lot of small errors like this.
5: Ballsy theft of the Jetpack will make up for the dumb jumping errors preceding it.
6: Could have jetpacked over the maneater. Runner got really lucky by dropping down on the merchant at the exit, or he would have totally owned Spelunky with the Shotgun. I would have liked to see him grab the gun if he could, but it flew way out of the way. Bad luck.
7: Good run. Seeing this game boiled down so much loses a lot of the appeal.
8: Wrong turn loses a second or so.
9: The thing with the ice levels is that you have the highest chance of getting the exit on the lower right, followed by some isolated death pit exits in the middle. It's good that they showed up here a lot.
10: Hung a hard left for no reason, probably due to assuming there would be no gap. I can't tell if knocking out the Yeti would have been faster than trying to dodge it.
11: Nothing to say, really.
12: Wrong turn loses a second.
13: Bombing the spike trap seemed like a big waste of time when the runner could have used a Jetpack to simply hover over it. I've done it myself a lot, so I know it's possible, albeit risky. It's a loss of maybe 5 seconds.
14: Got lucky with the Mummy walking in to the bomb when it did. Too bad, though, because it drops this wicked scepter that owns enemies that get in your way if you kill it otherwise. I would have liked to see it walk to the left so that the runner could mega-stomp it's head in less time than the bomb took. Once again, it's a lot of luck stuff.
15: Running from the spike trap was dumb. Pushing the block was too. I'd say a little over a second was lost. I know these seem trivial, but when the levels are only a handful of seconds as is, it adds up quickly.
16: Token smashy boss fight that we've all seen before. This whole fight would have been faster if the runner had that scepter. It all went quickly, all things considered. It could be faster, but this is the end of a high risk run, so it's not so bad. Maybe 4 seconds lost here? The improvements come from baiting the boss better so that he stomps in the same two sections frequently. Almost dying at the end was funny, though.
So, with a total time of 3:39, this is impressive. However, I would say that there's around 15 seconds of time that could be saved with better maps and whatnot. I know it's picky, but it's worth mentioning. I'll approve the run, but I hope that the runner keeps at a better time. 3:30 is totally within his grasp. Hell, saving just 9 seconds over a run that got the cape instead should be indicative of this.
Also, speedy runs that also get the kill and gold and damsel secrets would be fun to watch.
Quote:
Okay, I've watched the Spelunky run. Before I write my response I think it's worth making the point that from a speedrunning point of view this is a fundamentally different game to the vast majority that have runs on SDA, due to the fact that all the levels of the game are randomly generated. The traditional speedrunning distinction between route and execution therefore doesn't apply in this case; rather every level the runner has to improvise his route and make judgement calls based upon his extensive experience of the game. Also, this is a game where every one of the randomly generated levels is littered with opportunities to die, and this means the runner hesitates on several occasions (there's simply no way you can survive this game without ever stopping to look around), including at the start of every level to decide which way to run. I'm very pleased that this run has been submitted to SDA because I think that this rather atypical type of run adds variety to the site, which is a good thing.
Obviously, this run is nowhere near optimal (playing without perfect luck and precognition, there's just no way you ever could get close to optimal for this game). Perhaps the runner would disagree with me, but based upon my limited and unsuccessful attempts at running this game I felt as though his luck was pretty average and he could've been luckier in lots of ways (he doesn't get his jetpack until the second area, he doesn't get a compass at all, he doesn't get any extra bombs (which could've saved a fair number of seconds on the boss fight), most of the levels he got in the first two areas required him to travel an average or greater distance and he didn't get gifted any really quick levels early on. Also he was stalled once in each level of the final area by some lethal situation that had to be dealt with by a bomb - but that area is a massive pain and can easily go so much worse.)
However, I also felt as though every time luck handed him a nasty situation, he overcame it with quick thinking and impressively tight execution. His platforming and whipping of obstructing enemies is really rather precise when you take into account the fact that he's adapting to what he sees on the fly and at sprinting speeds in this game you barely have time to take things in as they come onto the screen. Also the runner must have developed some kind of telepathic ability to read the mind of the level generator because he only really takes a wrong turn once (at the end of level 8 ); my ability to judge where dead ends and the level exit will be located is nowhere near as well-developed. Oh, and slipping into the level 10 exit behind the yeti just before it turned round was a great moment.
The boss fight (the most predictable part of the game, but still somewhat random due to the randomly distributed gaps in the floor, the randomness of the exploding frogs, and the inability to be sure how many bombs you'll have left when you get to the level) goes decently well. The runner makes an unfortunate platforming error just after the 4 minute mark which costs about 3 seconds, and at 4:09 if he'd had the courage not to cross over to the right side of the hole I reckon he could've still won and he would've saved another 3 seconds by doing so. However these are extremely picky criticisms.
Overall, this is a very good run by a skilled runner and definitely deserves to be on SDA. It's an easy accept.
P.S. Two technical points:
- As far as I know there's no known way to interfere with the randomness of the level generator. In NetHack, the roguelike which inspired Spelunky, there was a trick where if you started the game with the exact same time on the Windows clock, to the second, then the random number generator would use the same initial seed and hence you would get the same first level. I tried this with Spelunky but got different first levels every time.
- This runner doesn't pause the game, and really I think it should be a rule for this game (and many like it) that pausing isn't allowed; it would be incredibly cheap and remove a lot of the impressiveness of the run to pause in a Spelunky speedrun because you can still see the level behind the pause menu so it gives you all the time in the world to take in the situation and plan your next move. I would reject a run that paused the game and am glad it's not something the runner decided to exploit.
Obviously, this run is nowhere near optimal (playing without perfect luck and precognition, there's just no way you ever could get close to optimal for this game). Perhaps the runner would disagree with me, but based upon my limited and unsuccessful attempts at running this game I felt as though his luck was pretty average and he could've been luckier in lots of ways (he doesn't get his jetpack until the second area, he doesn't get a compass at all, he doesn't get any extra bombs (which could've saved a fair number of seconds on the boss fight), most of the levels he got in the first two areas required him to travel an average or greater distance and he didn't get gifted any really quick levels early on. Also he was stalled once in each level of the final area by some lethal situation that had to be dealt with by a bomb - but that area is a massive pain and can easily go so much worse.)
However, I also felt as though every time luck handed him a nasty situation, he overcame it with quick thinking and impressively tight execution. His platforming and whipping of obstructing enemies is really rather precise when you take into account the fact that he's adapting to what he sees on the fly and at sprinting speeds in this game you barely have time to take things in as they come onto the screen. Also the runner must have developed some kind of telepathic ability to read the mind of the level generator because he only really takes a wrong turn once (at the end of level 8 ); my ability to judge where dead ends and the level exit will be located is nowhere near as well-developed. Oh, and slipping into the level 10 exit behind the yeti just before it turned round was a great moment.
The boss fight (the most predictable part of the game, but still somewhat random due to the randomly distributed gaps in the floor, the randomness of the exploding frogs, and the inability to be sure how many bombs you'll have left when you get to the level) goes decently well. The runner makes an unfortunate platforming error just after the 4 minute mark which costs about 3 seconds, and at 4:09 if he'd had the courage not to cross over to the right side of the hole I reckon he could've still won and he would've saved another 3 seconds by doing so. However these are extremely picky criticisms.
Overall, this is a very good run by a skilled runner and definitely deserves to be on SDA. It's an easy accept.
P.S. Two technical points:
- As far as I know there's no known way to interfere with the randomness of the level generator. In NetHack, the roguelike which inspired Spelunky, there was a trick where if you started the game with the exact same time on the Windows clock, to the second, then the random number generator would use the same initial seed and hence you would get the same first level. I tried this with Spelunky but got different first levels every time.
- This runner doesn't pause the game, and really I think it should be a rule for this game (and many like it) that pausing isn't allowed; it would be incredibly cheap and remove a lot of the impressiveness of the run to pause in a Spelunky speedrun because you can still see the level behind the pause menu so it gives you all the time in the world to take in the situation and plan your next move. I would reject a run that paused the game and am glad it's not something the runner decided to exploit.
Decision: Accept
Reason: Interesting to have a run of a game with randomly generated levels.
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