SDA Community Stream

2011-04-24 10:41:29 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I know a lot of people have been asking about this, so I might as well make a topic about it. Basically, our JRDQ bonus streaming was a community stream, and we normally held at least 120ish viewers on ustream, even at the worst times (early morning graveyard/weekday work times. We peaked at 260-300 for some games like SotN, Pole's Big Adventure, and THE DEMON RUSH.

I'm not 100% sure making the community stream is a great idea because it might get old if it's up 24/7, but I definitely think it's an idea worth trying.

The Streaming Service to use

Justin.tv - Ustream has been getting worse and worse, and with Justin, we can just use the authorization key system to give people permission to use the stream. If I'm correct about the key system, if someone is abusing the stream for some reason, we just take the key away from that person - no risk of the password changing or leaking from abuse.

Also, using Justin for the community stream would force us to learn how to stream with Justin for the next marathon.

Where to put the stream

Above the news posts like the jrdq stream? Honestly, we probably need a long-overdue site redesign if we don't want the stream to look really out of place.

Who should maintain the channel

Not it. No, but seriously, whoever maintains the channel (and it should be multiple people) just needs to make sure everyone who wants to stream gets authorization keys, use common sense, and just maintain the channel in general. I honestly wouldn't have the time to take care of the channel. I'm thinking one person who'd be good at it, if he's willing, is romscout.

How to determine who gets turns

I'm not 100% sure how to do this. We should probably make an IRC channel and just ask who is streaming, and see when we can fit in streaming.

If there's something I missed, then speak up. I'm sure there is something I missed.

Thread title:

I know a lot of people have been asking about this, so I might as well make a topic about it. Basically, our JRDQ bonus streaming was a community stream, and we normally held at least 120ish viewers on ustream, even at the worst times (early morning graveyard/weekday work times. We peaked at 260-300 for some games like SotN, Pole's Big Adventure, and THE DEMON RUSH.

I'm not 100% sure making the community stream is a great idea because it might get old if it's up 24/7, but I definitely think it's an idea worth trying.

[b]The Streaming Service to use[/b]

Justin.tv - Ustream has been getting worse and worse, and with Justin, we can just use the authorization key system to give people permission to use the stream. If I'm correct about the key system, if someone is abusing the stream for some reason, we just take the key away from that person - no risk of the password changing or leaking from abuse.

Also, using Justin for the community stream would force us to learn how to stream with Justin for the next marathon.

[b]Where to put the stream[/b]

Above the news posts like the jrdq stream? Honestly, we probably need a long-overdue site redesign if we don't want the stream to look really out of place.

[b]Who should maintain the channel[/b]

Not it. No, but seriously, whoever maintains the channel (and it should be multiple people) just needs to make sure everyone who wants to stream gets authorization keys, use common sense, and just maintain the channel in general. I honestly wouldn't have the time to take care of the channel. I'm thinking one person who'd be good at it, if he's willing, is romscout.

[b]How to determine who gets turns[/b]

I'm not 100% sure how to do this. We should probably make an IRC channel and just ask who is streaming, and see when we can fit in streaming.

If there's something I missed, then speak up. I'm sure there is something I missed.

gia

Edit history:

gia: 2011-04-24 10:53:48 pm

2011-04-24 10:46:26 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

why not have one of the streams at Live Streaming that are live ~~show up at random~~(nvm can be abused), from a list of streams whitelisted by moderators

Darkwing Duck

2011-04-24 10:50:16 pm

Highly Evolved

I have a question (er...questions).

Should the stream have a focus? I mean, should it be restricted to actual recorded attempts at a run? Or for more casual things?

Should there be a limit on who is allowed access and for a certain length of time? Should the stream be somewhat of a showcase for what speedrunners do? Or should it be a place to hang out?

CrypticJacknife

2011-04-24 10:56:20 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

I've always wondered why people wanted a community stream when there are so many streams already. But there could be good workarounds.

Quote from gia:

why not have one of the streams at live streaming that are live show up at random, or a list of those

This. Sort something out to simply make it that the embed takes a random stream off of the w00ty page and puts it up on the front page, indicating to anyone new that we do indeed have streams running regularly.

I think making one community stream may needlessly complicate a lot of things that can be fixed by simply using the list of streams we have. What could be done is just raising the awareness of streams going, rather than just shoving an embed at the top of the page. Just getting something in line like that would make it so much easier than actually trying to maintain a 'SDA stream', as anyone who streams already has a page for that. On top of that, there would inevitably be petty bickering over who wants to stream and 'who has right to stream' or people 'booking' the stream. And that sure as hell isn't going to bring anything positive to the front. I know for sure that if there's something we should utilize, it's this awesome set-up bmn has helped SDA gain, not throw it away almost straight after it's optimised to make an 'SDA Channel'. That's my 2 cents Smiley

I've always wondered why people wanted a community stream when there are so many streams already. But there could be good workarounds.
[quote="gia"]why not have one of the streams at live streaming that are live show up at random, or a list of those[/quote]
This. Sort something out to simply make it that the embed takes a random stream off of the w00ty page and puts it up on the front page, indicating to anyone new that we do indeed have streams running regularly.

I think making one community stream may needlessly complicate a lot of things that can be fixed by simply using the list of streams we have. What could be done is just raising the awareness of streams going, rather than just shoving an embed at the top of the page. Just getting something in line like that would make it so much easier than actually trying to maintain a 'SDA stream', as anyone who streams already has a page for that. On top of that, there would inevitably be petty bickering over who wants to stream and 'who has right to stream' or people 'booking' the stream. And that sure as hell isn't going to bring anything positive to the front. I know for sure that if there's something we should utilize, it's this awesome set-up bmn has helped SDA gain, not throw it away almost straight after it's optimised to make an 'SDA Channel'. That's my 2 cents :)

RaneofSOTN

2011-04-24 11:03:00 pm

I want off the ride....

Honestly rom did a good job of managing JRDQ this might work.. but as i fear community stream would have to be something not as regular.

The community stream would have to be something like a weekend only affair and probably should include multiple people. As there is the chat which rotates thats a good center focus but honestly our own private streams are good for our own things. Community stream channel should be something that we do as a group. Either with someone doing something and others commentating on or whatever.

Good Idea: Speed run attempts with other SDA runners commentating/etcetc

bad idea: speed run attempts of just you

Community stream should impart a sense of community and more than just one person. Another good thing would be like races, but this would depend on participants and so on...

if we are going to do community streams it shouldn't just be a private stream brought forward, there is w00ty for that kind of thing.

Mercury.Com

2011-04-25 07:47:50 am

Sea of Green

I am still not a fan of the community stream idea. I feel it will make the marathons we do seem less important if we have a main stream on the front page all the time. As much as I enjoy the marathons and interacting with the community that way, I can see this devolving into fights over who gets to stream when, who gets to stream most often, abuse resulting from too many people having the stream password, etc.

Paraxade

2011-04-25 08:21:42 am

^ what mercury said. It's simpler if everyone just has their own stream like how we do it now and the community stream stays a bonus for marathons.

Zealie

2011-04-25 08:41:43 am

I cannot possible believe people would be so childish as to make a fight over such thing, but then again I might be too naive with this...

I'd say that if we would have such a stream just make a couple of very clear rules and if they're not obeyed you lose the right to stream on that channel.
I don't really think a random stream from w00ty showing up on the main site is a good idea, because often people are just playing some games for fun or screwing around and it would look very out of place if you'd have a stream of normal play (or even worse ;p) as a main stream on the site.

So that would also mean that if a community stream would exist only people who are already trying to record a good speedrun (so not testing or practising, but actually trying to produce the run).

That being said, I personally have zero experience with streaming, but that's just the idea I get when I hear "SDA main stream channel".

On the other hand, like Mike said, it might be a good idea to do this anyway for testing out how justin works. And after you've got some expierence with justin.tv choose to maintain it or only keep it for marathons.

I cannot possible believe people would be so childish as to make a fight over such thing, but then again I might be too naive with this...

I'd say that if we would have such a stream just make a couple of very clear rules and if they're not obeyed you lose the right to stream on that channel.
I don't really think a random stream from w00ty showing up on the main site is a good idea, because often people are just playing some games for fun or screwing around and it would look very out of place if you'd have a stream of normal play (or even worse ;p) as a main stream on the site.

So that would also mean that if a community stream would exist only people who are already trying to record a good speedrun (so not testing or practising, but actually trying to produce the run).

That being said, I personally have zero experience with streaming, but that's just the idea I get when I hear "SDA main stream channel".

On the other hand, like Mike said, it might be a good idea to do this anyway for testing out how justin works. And after you've got some expierence with justin.tv choose to maintain it or only keep it for marathons.

Mercury.Com

2011-04-25 08:45:04 am

Sea of Green

Quote from Zealie:

I'd say that if we would have such a stream just make a couple of very clear rules and if they're not obeyed you lose the right to stream on that channel.

Just a thought, though--if they already have the password, how do we stop them from streaming when no one currently is? The obvious solution is to change the password, but keeping track of new passwords each time someone disobeys the rules will be another big headache. :x

Zealie

2011-04-25 08:55:09 am

Uhm, from what I understood from Mike's post is that you can just 'give' people the right to stream on the channel (giving them a 'key') and in case they do not listen you can just as easily take those rights away without any password changing or w/e. This would also be good because then a person who can stream can't just 'take control' of the stream, because he doesn't have the correct password for it.

Mercury.Com

2011-04-25 09:05:33 am

Sea of Green

Ah, okay. That makes more sense, and helps prevent some of the problems. That said, still not really fond of the idea, but that does help.

ButtersBB

2011-04-25 09:39:03 am

People can still have their own streams. If anything, I think this helps increase exposure to those streams by allowing viewers a central outlet to turn to. This stream can introduce viewers to what runners are doing and the runners can direct the viewers to their personal streams and provide time frames of when they are streaming. People want to watch streams, they just don't know where to go and when.

As for this "cheapening" marathons, I also disagree. Seeing runners come together from around the world to play for a good cause while providing commentary and maintaining a fun, entertaining atmosphere is something special.

Rakuen

2011-04-25 09:51:47 am

Weegee Time

I'm not sure about supporting this either, but on the front of making the marathons feel less "special," I don't think it would readily do that. At our peak for the bonus stream, we were hitting about 300 people. At our peak for the marathons, we were hitting in excess of 2000. The people who are willing to watch for long periods of time are those who are already invested into SDA. They are a subset of marathon population.

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2011-04-25 10:16:12 am

2011-04-25 10:14:56 am

Community streaming won't detract from the other marathons if it's done one or two days out of the week or so. If so, there should be time allocated for speedrunning, and time allocated for fun extras like Demon Rush, 'Splosion Man, blindfolded runs, etc.

The idea is doing a very sexy dance in front of us, so I don't see why we shouldn't do it.

I'll offer to maintain the channel myself if it's completely idiot proof for someone like me, who is slightly prone to logistical errors.

Redesigning the main page around it on the other hand, needs to be done carefully, because we don't want a jTV window sitting there detracting from the runs on the site when nobody's streaming. Probably set up some kind of script where the stream and chat show up whenever someone starts broadcasting. Naturally, my homeboy bmn is perfect for this job. <_<

Question though; how would a commentary stream be negotiated? Would we have another stream window, or maybe a simple audio stream (read: heavily resized jTV feed)?

Community streaming won't detract from the other marathons if it's done one or two days out of the week or so. If so, there should be time allocated for speedrunning, and time allocated for fun extras like Demon Rush, 'Splosion Man, blindfolded runs, etc.

The idea is doing a very sexy dance in front of us, so I don't see why we shouldn't do it.

I'll offer to maintain the channel myself if it's completely idiot proof for someone like me, who is slightly prone to logistical errors.

Redesigning the main page around it on the other hand, needs to be done carefully, because we don't want a jTV window sitting there detracting from the runs on the site when nobody's streaming. Probably set up some kind of script where the stream and chat show up whenever someone starts broadcasting. Naturally, my homeboy bmn is perfect for this job. <_<

Question though; how would a commentary stream be negotiated? Would we have another stream window, or maybe a simple audio stream (read: heavily resized jTV feed)?

Lag.Com

2011-04-26 02:38:10 am

sda loyalist

I think that IF we do this, we need some way of scheduling blocks of time. Maybe an IRC bot or some app on the SDA website, but without it schedule conflicts are inevitable, especially because certain time slots are more 'valuable'.

I'm not really in favour, but I can help out if we do it.

sinister1

2011-04-26 07:55:45 am

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

I think we should at least try this. It will bring more exposure to SDA if nothing else. As for the idea of detracting from the main marathons, how can we possibly know it will until we implement the stream and have a marathon?? So the worst that can happen is we do this for a while and find out it takes too much effort to maintain, is abused too much, or detracts from the main marathons. If any of those negative scenarios take place we have an easy fix, we just stop doing it. Seems fine to me.

Trekhaak

2011-04-26 08:20:28 am

Everybody's favorite monster

What she said

moooh

2011-04-26 12:54:32 pm

Exoray

We should have a separate page for this and should not have it appear on the front page like the marathons. They clutter up enough of the current design the times we do have them.

Flip

2011-04-26 01:18:19 pm

1-Up!

^Sounds like what we already have with wooty, which is ok with me, but I know one of the perks to this idea is supposedly the embedded chat.

Arrow

Edit history:

Arrow: 2011-04-26 01:48:12 pm

2011-04-26 01:47:18 pm

Now a hit show on the CW

I don't have an extremely strong opinion about this either way; people have made good arguments for both cases. I do feel like keeping the community stream as something special for marathons might be a good idea, but on the other hand, it would definitely help increase the site's exposure. Plus, I really enjoy commentating and would love to have more opportunities to do so, as well as possibly stream myself in the future (of course, I don't necessarily need a community stream for that).

However, regardless of the final decision, I absolutely agree that the main page needs a redesign, especially if we're going to start accommodating a regular stream.

romscout

Edit history:

romscout: 2011-04-26 02:13:07 pm

2011-04-26 02:11:13 pm

that Metroidvania guy

I'm just gonna go ahead and post what I said to Uyama when he made this thread.

I agree that it's very likely this would wear out its welcome quickly if it was handled exactly the same as the bonus stream, and it wouldn't fit on the site's current design anyway. If we want to do something with this, we need to work on redesigning the site first. We don't necessarily have to handle redoing all the database stuff just yet since that's a huge project, but simply modernizing the main page layout for now would be sufficient for a temp fix. A few of us are interested in actively helping with this and I'm just giving a heads up to nate that you're gonna be getting a massive PM sometime soon-ish. :p

At any rate, even if the site redesign happens to accommodate this stream, it would get very old very quick if there weren't some scheduled events to keep viewers coming back. Uyama and I were thinking maybe once a week there could be a show airing at a particular time that would be similar to Lag and Merc's podcasts (possibly hosted by... *gasp* Lag and Merc!), except streamed. Off the top of my head, something I could do once a week is showcasing a plethora of funny glitches in different games (basically every game I own or have access to has a ton of funny glitches), or doing something like that trivia game that the chat was participating in while Breakdown played Super Meat Boy in the bonus stream. I have plenty of other ideas too, as I'm sure many of you do after having it sparked in your mind. I think if we had stuff like this at certain slots in the week and then handled it like the bonus stream at all other times, it could have a chance of working well for keeping viewers and then giving people in the community more exposure (both in the content of these shows and when the runners come on immediately before and after). It would take a lot of planning for everything we wanted on there of course, but I think it has a much better chance of working than just having people randomly come on to stream stuff. Apparently TSG's community stream does something similar already with a scheduled show during the week. I suppose we could use that for reference.

I'm still wary of the possibility of the stream getting old fast, but with the right vision this could potentially work out great. We can't shoot it down until we try it, and I'm willing to help with every aspect if it becomes a reality. But yea, as it's been stated multiple times already, a site redesign would need to come first to make this fit well.

I'm just gonna go ahead and post what I said to Uyama when he made this thread.

I agree that it's very likely this would wear out its welcome quickly if it was handled exactly the same as the bonus stream, and it wouldn't fit on the site's current design anyway. If we want to do something with this, we need to work on redesigning the site first. We don't necessarily have to handle redoing all the database stuff just yet since that's a huge project, but simply modernizing the main page layout for now would be sufficient for a temp fix. A few of us are interested in actively helping with this and I'm just giving a heads up to nate that you're gonna be getting a massive PM sometime soon-ish. :p

At any rate, even if the site redesign happens to accommodate this stream, it would get very old very quick if there weren't some scheduled events to keep viewers coming back. Uyama and I were thinking maybe once a week there could be a show airing at a particular time that would be similar to Lag and Merc's podcasts (possibly hosted by... *gasp* Lag and Merc!), except streamed. Off the top of my head, something I could do once a week is showcasing a plethora of funny glitches in different games (basically every game I own or have access to has a ton of funny glitches), or doing something like that trivia game that the chat was participating in while Breakdown played Super Meat Boy in the bonus stream. I have plenty of other ideas too, as I'm sure many of you do after having it sparked in your mind. I think if we had stuff like this at certain slots in the week and then handled it like the bonus stream at all other times, it could have a chance of working well for keeping viewers and then giving people in the community more exposure (both in the content of these shows and when the runners come on immediately before and after). It would take a lot of planning for everything we wanted on there of course, but I think it has a much better chance of working than just having people randomly come on to stream stuff. Apparently TSG's community stream does something similar already with a scheduled show during the week. I suppose we could use that for reference.

I'm still wary of the possibility of the stream getting old fast, but with the right vision this could potentially work out great. We can't shoot it down until we try it, and I'm willing to help with every aspect if it becomes a reality. But yea, as it's been stated multiple times already, a site redesign would need to come first to make this fit well.

CrypticJacknife

2011-04-26 09:08:28 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

If it gets to the point where it wouldn't be constant and it would be once a week at a particular time, THAT is when it would become distraught with people wanting to get onto the stream, others saying no because they want to do something, others complaining, some organising the stream as if it were their own + a few others stream rather than the whole community's, thus pulling attention away from the w00ty page as well as the true community feeling and onto themselves.

Sure I understand the "don't shoot it down until we try it" logic, everything seems good to try until it doesn't work, but shooting this down once it's flying could result in it crashing into a children's hospital (yes, I totally went there and it makes more sense then you might care to realise). Wink

romscout

2011-04-26 09:35:03 pm

that Metroidvania guy

Right, maybe you misunderstood what I meant a bit because I wasn't very clear. The vast majority of the week would still be free for everyone to use. I just figured if we had some consistent content that different viewers can look forward to each week, it would help retain them. We would need to plan out any such events before the stream went up, make it so the schedule for them was good for those who want to be involved, and make it flexible so we can have different people hosting stuff they want to do throughout the year if they feel like it. I definitely agree that if we only made the community stream available for a small portion of time that conflict would ensue. Having it available at all times is a given, but I was just talking about setting up pre-determined blocks in advance for certain events once a week based on what we decide to plan, and have those highlighted on the page or something.

CrypticJacknife

2011-04-26 10:01:52 pm

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Hmm that does make a lot more sense then what I thought you were saying XD

Of course certain non-american streamers would have an easier time getting themselves viewed (my first presumption is that the majority of SDA and it's 'care-takers' reside in America), so maybe it would end up that the american afternoon/early night time-slot would be the one that would require the most maintenance and organising. Would it be simpler to bring up a thread for 'requests' to stream? Or would someone simply rock up, see no one is using it, and take advantage of that. Only bad thing that could happen from that is that someone ELSE has the stream 'booked' for a time later than the previous runner would've finished a full run (of course it didn't cause near as much trouble as it could've due to sleepy people sleeping way too long Tongue

but Ilseroth streaming Fable II in the bonus stream is a good example, everyone really got into the run, as well as everyone knowing that Mik had said earlier he was going to use the stream at a particular time). It has the potential to cause mass-confusion >.>

For what you were saying about a weekly, short-show like presentation that happens at a static time every week, I guess it would be better to work out a time and put a big fat static "This time-slot is reserved, No exceptions." Maybe a flexible spreadsheet could be used as a mean of signing up, almost like the way you sign up on a roster sheet to do extra shifts at work. Whether this should be dealt with in a static forum thread or otherwise, I got no clue. I mean you guys would be the ones setting it up so I'm just all suggestions here, and when going through suggestions honestly I find it best to be as negative about what could happen as possible to ensure people pick the path with the smallest risk-factor as possible. ^_^

Hmm that does make a lot more sense then what I thought you were saying XD

Of course certain non-american streamers would have an easier time getting themselves viewed (my first presumption is that the majority of SDA and it's 'care-takers' reside in America), so maybe it would end up that the american afternoon/early night time-slot would be the one that would require the most maintenance and organising. Would it be simpler to bring up a thread for 'requests' to stream? Or would someone simply rock up, see no one is using it, and take advantage of that. Only bad thing that could happen from that is that someone ELSE has the stream 'booked' for a time later than the previous runner would've finished a full run (of course it didn't cause near as much trouble as it could've due to sleepy people sleeping way too long :P but Ilseroth streaming Fable II in the bonus stream is a good example, everyone really got into the run, as well as everyone knowing that Mik had said earlier he was going to use the stream at a particular time). It has the potential to cause mass-confusion >.>

For what you were saying about a weekly, short-show like presentation that happens at a static time every week, I guess it would be better to work out a time and put a big fat static "This time-slot is reserved, No exceptions." Maybe a flexible spreadsheet could be used as a mean of signing up, almost like the way you sign up on a roster sheet to do extra shifts at work. Whether this should be dealt with in a static forum thread or otherwise, I got no clue. I mean you guys would be the ones setting it up so I'm just all suggestions here, and when going through suggestions honestly I find it best to be as negative about what could happen as possible to ensure people pick the path with the smallest risk-factor as possible. ^_^

mikwuyma

2011-04-27 08:41:44 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

It seems like we should hold off a bit on implementing this idea until we figure out how we should put it on the front page.

[quote="CrypticJacknife"(my first presumption is that the majority of SDA and it's 'care-takers' reside in America)[/quote]

Most of the staff is American, but we have a large European contingent too.

Zealie: To my knowledge, that's exactly how the authorization keys on justin.tv work.

Sinister1: That was my reasoning, even though I thought the idea might run thin after a while.