Golden Sun: The Lost Age 100%?

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-13 03:40:04 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-13 03:39:48 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-13 03:38:32 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-13 03:16:46 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-13 03:16:26 pm

2012-02-13 03:15:41 pm

I've been interested in doing a speedrun of this game for a while. There's a TAS that sits at 6:01 and a normal run with most Djinn collection that apparently sits at just over 7 hours, although I don't know of videos for most of the latter run to confirm. Neither of these runs, to my understanding, use the many applications of the Retreat Glitch, and there are surely more applications that have yet to be discovered, so reasonable times are probably feasible on console.

The only question is, how should a 100% run be defined? Ideally, it would be all 72 Djinn and 13 summon tablets, and perhaps the three class-change items as well. But without a data transfer, you miss out on six Djinn from the first game and one Djinn from the second, as well as two summon tablets that require all Djinn to obtain. And a data transfer seems like it would entail a special type of run, probably involving heavy abuse in the first game or a set up password. So for a regular 100% run, I'm thinking the 65 available Djinn and 11 available summon tablets, as well as the three class-change items: there's an optional dungeon completed specifically for the sake of the final of the three items, so it seems to me that it's supposed to be important, but I realize that there's room for dispute here and on the other matters. I want to get consensus before getting too involved if possible, so does anyone have any thoughts?

I've heard concerns about the length of the game, but I don't think it'll be a huge issue, especially with the importance of going segmented. I haven't watched the TAS yet (but intend to), but I think with an any% run using the Retreat glitch, sub-6 hours is probably feasible. 100% will be more of an issue, since it'll most likely break the 7-hour limit and require an exception. It shouldn't require more than 8 hours, which seems reasonable enough for a 100% run, especially for an RPG, but it's probably best to get that cleared up ahead of time as well.

Thread title:

I've been interested in doing a speedrun of this game for a while. There's a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glMwwAX7Ksw]TAS that sits at 6:01[/url] and a normal run with most Djinn collection that apparently sits at just over 7 hours, although I don't know of videos for most of the latter run to confirm. Neither of these runs, to my understanding, use the many applications of the Retreat Glitch, and there are surely more applications that have yet to be discovered, so reasonable times are probably feasible on console.

The only question is, how should a 100% run be defined? Ideally, it would be all 72 Djinn and 13 summon tablets, and perhaps the three class-change items as well. But without a data transfer, you miss out on six Djinn from the first game and one Djinn from the second, as well as two summon tablets that require all Djinn to obtain. And a data transfer seems like it would entail a special type of run, probably involving heavy abuse in the first game or a set up password. So for a regular 100% run, I'm thinking the 65 available Djinn and 11 available summon tablets, as well as the three class-change items: there's an optional dungeon completed specifically for the sake of the final of the three items, so it seems to me that it's supposed to be important, but I realize that there's room for dispute here and on the other matters. I want to get consensus before getting too involved if possible, so does anyone have any thoughts?

I've heard concerns about the length of the game, but I don't think it'll be a huge issue, especially with the importance of going segmented. I haven't watched the TAS yet (but intend to), but I think with an any% run using the Retreat glitch, sub-6 hours is probably feasible. 100% will be more of an issue, since it'll most likely break the 7-hour limit and require an exception. It shouldn't require more than 8 hours, which seems reasonable enough for a 100% run, especially for an RPG, but it's probably best to get that cleared up ahead of time as well.

Manocheese

2012-02-13 04:28:28 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Getting 65/72 Djinn and 11/13 summons just doesn't seem like 100% to me. It's more like "non-transfer max%". On the other hand, requiring a transfer will probably result in you or any other eventual 100% runner transferring a level 99 party, thereby removing a lot of strategy from everything after Isaac's party joins. Of the two alternatives, I would probably prefer to watch the non-transfer max%, but I'm not sure that it really fits at SDA, so I'm inclined to say that a transfer should be required for 100% so that all the Djinn and summons can be obtained.

On the subject of the class-changing items, I don't think they should be required. There isn't much separating them from other items; they change your class, but why should that make them required while other items aren't? To your point that "there's an optional dungeon completed specifically for the sake of the final of the three items, so it seems to me that it's supposed to be important," remember that Taopo Swamp has Star Dust at the end, and surely that shouldn't be required. So the placement of the Tomegathericon in Gabomba Catacombs shouldn't affect the decision.

Getting 65/72 Djinn and 11/13 summons just doesn't seem like 100% to me. It's more like "non-transfer max%". On the other hand, requiring a transfer will probably result in you or any other eventual 100% runner transferring a level 99 party, thereby removing a lot of strategy from everything after Isaac's party joins. Of the two alternatives, I would probably prefer to watch the non-transfer max%, but I'm not sure that it really fits at SDA, so I'm inclined to say that a transfer should be required for 100% so that all the Djinn and summons can be obtained.

On the subject of the class-changing items, I don't think they should be required. There isn't much separating them from other items; they change your class, but why should that make them required while other items aren't? To your point that "there's an optional dungeon completed specifically for the sake of the final of the three items, so it seems to me that it's supposed to be important," remember that Taopo Swamp has Star Dust at the end, and surely that shouldn't be required. So the placement of the Tomegathericon in Gabomba Catacombs shouldn't affect the decision.

TheOthin

2012-02-13 04:54:40 pm

Even if it's more accurate to call it non-transfer max%, it certainly seems like a viable run type; after all, it's the only one where you'll fight the final bosses with endgame classes but still in a fair fight. I suppose it's worth a check to make sure it'd be allowed with that in mind, but I really think it should be. I know I have no plans to do a transfer run anytime soon.

I was thinking about the Taopo Swamp... Certainly, you'd go to both the Gabomba Catacombs and Taopo Swamp in such a run regardless of their end items for the Djinn. On the other hand, the Tomegathericon is part of completing the series' complex class and Djinn system, at least to the fullest possible extent in a non-transfer run. And unlike the Star Dust, it actually completes a side story. If we're judging 100% based on what the developers likely intended, which is my understanding of it (or the closest to what the developers intended in this case), I still feel like it's part of it. But I'm hoping we can get more viewpoints here.

Even if it's more accurate to call it non-transfer max%, it certainly seems like a viable run type; after all, it's the only one where you'll fight the final bosses with endgame classes but still in a fair fight. I suppose it's worth a check to make sure it'd be allowed with that in mind, but I really think it should be. I know I have no plans to do a transfer run anytime soon.

I was thinking about the Taopo Swamp... Certainly, you'd go to both the Gabomba Catacombs and Taopo Swamp in such a run regardless of their end items for the Djinn. On the other hand, the Tomegathericon is part of completing the series' complex class and Djinn system, at least to the fullest possible extent in a non-transfer run. And unlike the Star Dust, it actually completes a side story. If we're judging 100% based on what the developers likely intended, which is my understanding of it (or the closest to what the developers intended in this case), I still feel like it's part of it. But I'm hoping we can get more viewpoints here.

wersterlobe

2012-02-13 07:14:44 pm

I've been wanting to do a 100% GS2 run (single segment) for a long time, it's not at the top of my list, but I've run through it several times and love the game to death. However, I would want to use a transfer with level 99s because I feel incomplete if I didn't do that, and Isaac's party doesn't join you till very late in the game anyway. The question I would ask, is if you did that run, would you be able to transfer items from Golden Sun 1 that you can't get without cheat codes or what not.

The game is hard to put specific categories on because of the transfer, but the four caetgories seem like any% no transfer, max% no transfer, any% and 100% (and also hard modes of those I guess if anyone was that crazy) and I think the max% and 100% should just be Djinn and Summon Tablets

dog god

2012-02-14 02:55:24 am

As far as I know, there isn't any 7-hour limit on SDA anymore, I think it was dropped a couple of years ago when insane runs like FFX (10.5 hours) were submitted, so it shouldn't be a problem if it's over 7 hours.

TheOthin

2012-02-14 03:10:20 am

Quote from dog god:

As far as I know, there isn't any 7-hour limit on SDA anymore, I think it was dropped a couple of years ago when insane runs like FFX (10.5 hours) were submitted, so it shouldn't be a problem if it's over 7 hours.

Alright this is good. I know there have been exceptions, but this definitely helps.

Regardless, rethinking it, I don't see any need to tack on extra time for unnecessary items. So I think I'll plan for just Djinn and summons unless anyone objects.

kirbymastah

2012-02-14 06:56:21 pm

<(^_^)>

djinn/summons sound good to me, with transfers with same levels/items as no transfers, only djinn.

something interesting to note... would it ever be faster to forbe weapons, like (an extreme example) excalibur? RNG is really easily to manipulate, and it just takes a quick stop at champa... gameplay time wouldn't be too significant since this should be segmented. I suspect it'd be slower, but... just throwing this out there

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-14 09:21:39 pm

2012-02-14 07:11:44 pm

Champa only has the forge in Dark Dawn. In The Lost Age, the forge is in Yallam, which is way out of the way and rather slow to use, at least on any%. The TAS uses it after Tundaria, the only time you'd get close on any%, which by my count costs about three minutes for two items and doesn't seem worth it at all. On 100%, you have to go past it on the way to Taopo Swamp, so it's a bit more feasible then, and Mars Lighthouse is split into two visits, giving you a chance to Teleport over to Yallam to grab some items for the bonus bosses, in which case it might very well be useful for Excalibur. On any%, though, Mars Lighthouse would normally only be a single visit, so you'd need to exit partway and take a bit of a detour to get an item or items only really useful for the final boss, so it probably wouldn't be worth it then, either.

Serris posted an Easy Mode strategy a while ago that involved getting the Sylph Rapier, among other items, to get enough damage multipliers combined with maxed stats to kill the Serpent in one turn, removing the need to weaken it and thereby skipping almost all of Gaia Rock. I haven't done the exact math, but it sounds to me like if you can do that, you could get a two turn kill without the Sylph Rapier even with its maximum healing, costing less time than the trip to Yallam while still avoiding the even lengthier Gaia Rock exploration.

Champa only has the forge in Dark Dawn. In The Lost Age, the forge is in Yallam, which is way out of the way and rather slow to use, at least on any%. The TAS uses it after Tundaria, the only time you'd get close on any%, which by my count costs about three minutes for two items and doesn't seem worth it at all. On 100%, you have to go past it on the way to Taopo Swamp, so it's a bit more feasible then, and Mars Lighthouse is split into two visits, giving you a chance to Teleport over to Yallam to grab some items for the bonus bosses, in which case it might very well be useful for Excalibur. On any%, though, Mars Lighthouse would normally only be a single visit, so you'd need to exit partway and take a bit of a detour to get an item or items only really useful for the final boss, so it probably wouldn't be worth it then, either.

Serris posted an Easy Mode strategy a while ago that involved getting the Sylph Rapier, among other items, to get enough damage multipliers combined with maxed stats to kill the Serpent in one turn, removing the need to weaken it and thereby skipping almost all of Gaia Rock. I haven't done the exact math, but it sounds to me like if you can do that, you could get a two turn kill without the Sylph Rapier even with its maximum healing, costing less time than the trip to Yallam while still avoiding the even lengthier Gaia Rock exploration.

kirbymastah

2012-02-14 09:19:48 pm

<(^_^)>

oops, i meant yallam XDD yeah it's definitely useless for any%, though it could be potentially useful for 100% with some MAD luck manipulation? and not only excalibur, but other useful weapons / equipment as well...

wersterlobe

2012-02-15 09:24:50 pm

You go to Yallam before you get any orihalcon in 100%, still pointless and not worth it at all.

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2012-02-15 10:33:03 pm

2012-02-15 10:30:33 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Regarding the Serpent, it can be killed without activating any lights with the right combination of summons, even on Hard.

Normal
Hard

He shows the Djinn setup he uses near the start of each video. I'll take a closer look later to see how his Djinn setup compares to what a 100% runner would have at that point.

EDIT: Also, now that there's an SDA Discussion thread for the rules question, we should use the existing TLA thread:

http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/golden_sun_the_lost_age30.html