Final Fantasy VIII

FFgamer86

2012-07-22 05:34:39 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

Thanks.

DiscoCokkroach

Edit history:

DiscoCokkroach: 2012-07-24 12:31:07 am

DiscoCokkroach: 2012-07-23 11:00:06 pm

2012-07-23 10:59:31 pm

Robot Master

So, about finding a 100% definition for this game...

This post by Carcinogen about a 100% run in FF7 was what got me thinking about this, specifically, this part:

Quote from Carcinogen:

The SDA definition of 100% for a game is very flaky and falls under very specific guidelines. The best idea I can think of is "all permanent trackable non-statistic powerups". This would include Energy Containers and Missile Containers in Metroid; Heart Containers, Magic Meters, and Bomb Bags in Zelda.

I believe the following things fit all of the stated critera, and should be included in a 100% run:

All GFs (Odin/Gilgamesh is debatable)
Unlock all abilities in Ultimecia Castle
Learn all Blue Magic spells for Quistis
Learn all Angelo tricks for Rinoa

Here's some other stuff that might be counted towards 100%, but is subject to interpretation:

Complete the Chocobo Forest sidequest (you don't have to go to the Chocobo Sanctuary; just solve all the puzzles and find all spell Stones)
Completed Information section in the Tutorial sub-menu
Have all cards listed in the Card sub-menu (you're allowed have zero of a particular card, as long as it's listed)
Complete the CC Group sidequest (it's much easier to collect Level 8-10 cards if you have them around on Disc 4, but
Collect all Timber Maniacs magazines
Read all Weapons Monthly magazines
Read all Combat King magazines

I'm an extremely new poster here, and I'm just curious about this, since I'd really like to do it sometime Cheesy

So, about finding a 100% definition for this game...

[url=http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/final_fantasy_vii_100_definition___12.html#final_fantasy_vii_100_definition___12]This post by Carcinogen about a 100% run in FF7[/url] was what got me thinking about this, specifically, this part:

[quote=Carcinogen]The SDA definition of 100% for a game is very flaky and falls under very specific guidelines. The best idea I can think of is "all permanent trackable non-statistic powerups". This would include Energy Containers and Missile Containers in Metroid; Heart Containers, Magic Meters, and Bomb Bags in Zelda.[/quote]
I believe the following things fit all of the stated critera, and should be included in a 100% run:
[list][*]All GFs (Odin/Gilgamesh is debatable)
[*]Unlock all abilities in Ultimecia Castle
[*]Learn all Blue Magic spells for Quistis
[*]Learn all Angelo tricks for Rinoa[/list]
Here's some other stuff that [i]might[/i] be counted towards 100%, but is subject to interpretation:
[list][*]Complete the Chocobo Forest sidequest (you don't have to go to the Chocobo Sanctuary; just solve all the puzzles and find all spell Stones)
[*]Completed Information section in the Tutorial sub-menu
[*]Have all cards listed in the Card sub-menu (you're allowed have zero of a particular card, as long as it's listed)
[*]Complete the CC Group sidequest (it's much easier to collect Level 8-10 cards if you have them around on Disc 4, but 
[*]Collect all Timber Maniacs magazines
[*]Read all Weapons Monthly magazines
[*]Read all Combat King magazines[/list]
I'm an extremely new poster here, and I'm just curious about this, since I'd really like to do it sometime :D

puwexil

2012-07-23 11:31:56 pm

Professional Second Banana

Merging with the main FFVIII thread - we generally like to stick to 1 main thread per game so that people have any easy time finding posts on it.

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2012-07-24 05:47:03 pm

2012-07-24 05:44:38 pm

Nah, just All GFs. Requiring all limit breaks is a bad idea, even for FFVII the more I think about it. Shockwave Pulsar alone would take like 10+ hours to get.

I think more appropriately, it's "All permanent trackable non-statistic powerups obtained as standalone collectibles or through an in-game event". Blue magic is not obtained through an event, it's obtained through grinding, as is the Angelo stuff.

Also, unlocking your abilities in Ultimecia's Castle doesn't really fit that criteria either, I don't think; Poxnor just introduced it as a donation incentive for marathons.

DiscoCokkroach

2012-07-24 08:44:15 pm

Robot Master

Wow. Thanks for the great response, Carc. I totally agree. All GFs it is.

Would you still get Odin, though? I mean, you get him, then he just kind of shows up at random times to ruin your levels and waste ~20 seconds. If you get him after you learn Enc-None, though, then he never shows up, and you'd never even know that you got him. Odin is just so quirky that I personally wouldn't count him, and if I did, I'd get him on Disc 4, to avoid gaining the mutually-exclusive Gilgamesh coming in mid-boss fight to waste ~30 seconds.

Poxnor

2012-07-24 09:57:51 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

The problem with one-size-fits-all definitions of 100% is that they just don't work. Consider LttP-100%: despite the fact that most one-size-fits-all definitions of 100% ("all trackable upgrades," etc.) would include the bomb and arrow upgrades, the SDA definition doesn't. It's based on, as I understand it, nothing more than what the players want.

So, here are my entirely subjective thoughts on what I would want in an FF8-100%, though I've tried to explain my rationale where possible.

Included:

- All GFs that appear in the GF menu. This is a perfect analogue to FF6-100% getting all espers. Keep in mind that many GFs can be acquired in the final castle.

- Odin and Gilgamesh. I know this one is a subject of debate, because they don't appear on the GF list. However, all the game literature refers to them as GFs. So, I'll put aside the attempts at pedantic definitions of 100% (based on in-game menus or whatnot). Instead, I want to think about what it means to me when I say, "Get all GFs" as part of the 100% definition. To me, that includes Odin and Gilgamesh, even though they don't appear in the menu.

- 100% castle unlock. I see it as a perfect analogue to completing all of Gaspar's quests in CT-100%.

Not included:

- All of item X (magazines, cards, etc.). Neither FF6-100% nor CT-100% do this, so it's well-established on SDA not to require all items.

- All of skill X (spells, limit breaks, tricks, etc.). Seems very close in nature to requiring max level, which is again well-established as not required. FF6-100% also explicitly does not require all spells to be learned.

- Omega Weapon. FF6-100% doesn't battle all optional bosses (e.g., Magimaster).

- Tutorial menu filled out: doesn't even feel like part of the gameplay to me.

- Chocobo quest: just because bleh.

The problem with one-size-fits-all definitions of 100% is that they just don't work. Consider LttP-100%: despite the fact that most one-size-fits-all definitions of 100% ("all trackable upgrades," etc.) would include the bomb and arrow upgrades, the SDA definition doesn't. It's based on, as I understand it, nothing more than what the players want.

So, here are my entirely subjective thoughts on what I would want in an FF8-100%, though I've tried to explain my rationale where possible.

[u]Included:[/u]

- All GFs that appear in the GF menu. This is a perfect analogue to FF6-100% getting all espers. Keep in mind that many GFs can be acquired in the final castle.

- Odin and Gilgamesh. I know this one is a subject of debate, because they don't appear on the GF list. However, all the game literature refers to them as GFs. So, I'll put aside the attempts at pedantic definitions of 100% (based on in-game menus or whatnot). Instead, I want to think about what it [i]means[/i] to me when I say, "Get all GFs" as part of the 100% definition. To me, that includes Odin and Gilgamesh, even though they don't appear in the menu.

- 100% castle unlock. I see it as a perfect analogue to completing all of Gaspar's quests in CT-100%.

[u]Not included:[/u]

- All of item X (magazines, cards, etc.). Neither FF6-100% nor CT-100% do this, so it's well-established on SDA not to require all items.

- All of skill X (spells, limit breaks, tricks, etc.). Seems very close in nature to requiring max level, which is again well-established as not required. FF6-100% also explicitly does not require all spells to be learned.

- Omega Weapon. FF6-100% doesn't battle all optional bosses (e.g., Magimaster).

- Tutorial menu filled out: doesn't even feel like part of the gameplay to me.

- Chocobo quest: just because bleh.

Poxnor

2012-07-24 11:17:46 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

My personal preferences aside: this isn't the first time someone has expressed interest in a 100% definition for FF8. Maybe it's time for the various FF8 runners to come to a consensus on a 100% definition so that actual work could begin on it.

I think we all agree (correct me if I'm wrong) on all GFs (for one of two definitions thereof) being required, and it not being required to get all of any type of item/skill/limit/spell/etc.

Are the only points where we don't all agree (a) the Odin+Gilgamesh issue; and, (b) the 100% castle clear? Or are there other points of debate that I've forgotten?

FFgamer86

2012-07-25 03:04:40 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

My idea of 100%

All collectibles

What I mean is.

ALL GFS
ALL Cards(Modded is okay)
ALL Ultimate Weapons

We could say do an All-GF Run.

RoboSparkle

Edit history:

RoboSparkle: 2012-07-25 06:08:00 am

2012-07-25 05:59:45 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

I'm still opposed to the idea of calling this 100% because there are so many ways of justifying it and very susceptible to having stuff excluded because you don't want to do it or don't feel it would be entertaining. Which is fine, there's no point in running parts of the game that you don't want to do and no-one wants to watch, I just don't think it should be called "100%"

As a separate category, my personal opinion that "all GFs, 100% Castle Unlock" makes the most sense (and is a reasonably succinct category title). I'd consider the Cards/Ultimate Weapons as sidequests personally, and for that I kinda feel there should be an "all or nothing" approach (i.e. also doing Obel Lake, Shumi Village, Omega Weapon, Chocobo Forests) and "all collectibles" could arguably extend to "All Magazines/Limit Breaks/GF Abilities", but I get the feeling we all feel that's going too far.

So, yeah "all-GF & 100% Castle Unlock", anyone?

EDIT: I Also include Odin/Gilgamesh in my definition of GFs, but not Boko or Phoenix, as they're items, rather than obtainable GFs like Odin or Gilgy.

I'm still opposed to the idea of calling this 100% because there are so many ways of justifying it and very susceptible to having stuff excluded because you don't want to do it or don't feel it would be entertaining.  Which is fine, there's no point in running parts of the game that you don't want to do and no-one wants to watch, I just don't think it should be called "100%"

As a separate category, my personal opinion that "all GFs, 100% Castle Unlock" makes the most sense (and is a reasonably succinct category title).  I'd consider the Cards/Ultimate Weapons as sidequests personally, and for that I kinda feel there should be an "all or nothing" approach (i.e. also doing Obel Lake, Shumi Village, Omega Weapon, Chocobo Forests) and "all collectibles" could arguably extend to "All Magazines/Limit Breaks/GF Abilities", but I get the feeling we all feel that's going too far.

So, yeah "all-GF & 100% Castle Unlock", anyone?

EDIT: I Also include Odin/Gilgamesh in my definition of GFs, but not Boko or Phoenix, as they're items, rather than obtainable GFs like Odin or Gilgy.

rayvex

2012-07-25 06:44:41 am

hi

Quote from Poxnor:

The problem with one-size-fits-all definitions of 100% is that they just don't work. Consider LttP-100%: despite the fact that most one-size-fits-all definitions of 100% ("all trackable upgrades," etc.) would include the bomb and arrow upgrades, the SDA definition doesn't. It's based on, as I understand it, nothing more than what the players want.

So, here are my entirely subjective thoughts on what I would want in an FF8-100%, though I've tried to explain my rationale where possible.

Included:

- All GFs that appear in the GF menu. This is a perfect analogue to FF6-100% getting all espers. Keep in mind that many GFs can be acquired in the final castle.

- Odin and Gilgamesh. I know this one is a subject of debate, because they don't appear on the GF list. However, all the game literature refers to them as GFs. So, I'll put aside the attempts at pedantic definitions of 100% (based on in-game menus or whatnot). Instead, I want to think about what it means to me when I say, "Get all GFs" as part of the 100% definition. To me, that includes Odin and Gilgamesh, even though they don't appear in the menu.

- 100% castle unlock. I see it as a perfect analogue to completing all of Gaspar's quests in CT-100%.

Not included:

- All of item X (magazines, cards, etc.). Neither FF6-100% nor CT-100% do this, so it's well-established on SDA not to require all items.

- All of skill X (spells, limit breaks, tricks, etc.). Seems very close in nature to requiring max level, which is again well-established as not required. FF6-100% also explicitly does not require all spells to be learned.

- Omega Weapon. FF6-100% doesn't battle all optional bosses (e.g., Magimaster).

- Tutorial menu filled out: doesn't even feel like part of the gameplay to me.

- Chocobo quest: just because bleh.

Technically, if you haven't done the Omega Weapon fight nor the Chocobo quest, you simply haven't completed the entire game including every bits 'n pieces of it's optional/side- quests which is what a 100% run is about.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I read 100% then I'm pretty much expecting to see the entire game regardless of how long it would take.

Quote from FFgamer86:

My idea of 100%

All collectibles

What I mean is.

ALL GFS
ALL Cards(Modded is okay)
ALL Ultimate Weapons

We could say do an All-GF Run.

I agree.

[quote="Poxnor"]The problem with one-size-fits-all definitions of 100% is that they just don't work. Consider LttP-100%: despite the fact that most one-size-fits-all definitions of 100% ("all trackable upgrades," etc.) would include the bomb and arrow upgrades, the SDA definition doesn't. It's based on, as I understand it, nothing more than what the players want.

So, here are my entirely subjective thoughts on what I would want in an FF8-100%, though I've tried to explain my rationale where possible.

[u]Included:[/u]

- All GFs that appear in the GF menu. This is a perfect analogue to FF6-100% getting all espers. Keep in mind that many GFs can be acquired in the final castle.

- Odin and Gilgamesh. I know this one is a subject of debate, because they don't appear on the GF list. However, all the game literature refers to them as GFs. So, I'll put aside the attempts at pedantic definitions of 100% (based on in-game menus or whatnot). Instead, I want to think about what it [i]means[/i] to me when I say, "Get all GFs" as part of the 100% definition. To me, that includes Odin and Gilgamesh, even though they don't appear in the menu.

- 100% castle unlock. I see it as a perfect analogue to completing all of Gaspar's quests in CT-100%.

[u]Not included:[/u]

- All of item X (magazines, cards, etc.). Neither FF6-100% nor CT-100% do this, so it's well-established on SDA not to require all items.

- All of skill X (spells, limit breaks, tricks, etc.). Seems very close in nature to requiring max level, which is again well-established as not required. FF6-100% also explicitly does not require all spells to be learned.

- Omega Weapon. FF6-100% doesn't battle all optional bosses (e.g., Magimaster).

- Tutorial menu filled out: doesn't even feel like part of the gameplay to me.

- Chocobo quest: just because bleh.[/quote]

Technically, if you haven't done the Omega Weapon fight nor the Chocobo quest, you simply haven't completed the entire game including every bits 'n pieces of it's optional/side- quests which is what a 100% run is about.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I read 100% then I'm pretty much expecting to see the entire game regardless of how long it would take.

[quote="FFgamer86"]My idea of 100%

All collectibles

What I mean is.

ALL GFS
ALL Cards(Modded is okay)
ALL Ultimate Weapons

We could say do an All-GF Run.  [/quote]

I agree.

FFgamer86

2012-07-25 06:47:03 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

I put more emphasis on all cards. If your gonna play the card game for certain cards and not others then it doesnt feel like it would be 100%. Getting the cards is not that hard. We can play cards on disc 4 for every rare card other than Pupu which we need to do quest for.

Poxnor

2012-07-25 12:16:45 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Bahaha, so much for us being close to consensus. How has it been decided for other RPGs in the past?

FFgamer86

2012-07-25 03:11:53 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

I think ff6 is all characters all espers. Those are pretty much the only collectibles though in that game not including equipment. But I don't consider items to be counted for 100%

DiscoCokkroach

2012-07-25 03:53:51 pm

Robot Master

Quote from FFgamer86:

I put more emphasis on all cards. If your gonna play the card game for certain cards and not others then it doesnt feel like it would be 100%. Getting the cards is not that hard. We can play cards on disc 4 for every rare card other than Pupu which we need to do quest for.

I was just going to say this. The left girl of the Diamond Duo will always play the next rare card that you don't have, and you can easily manipulate her rules (aka Trabia's rules) with the RNG earlier in the game, so that's easy enough.

I would include the Chocobo quest. It's not a grind fest, takes a degree of planning to execute properly, and it gives you something unique (free chocobos). Fair warning, though: The Forest of Solitude may be as trollerific as the Rinoa name skip.

Ultima Weapon and Omega Weapon are purely side-quests and they offer nothing unique (as far as Ultima Weapon goes, Eden can be acquired from Tiamat & the Eden card from Left Diamond Girl). There's no reason to fight them other than leaving no stone unturned. Personally, I'd just like to fight them because it sounds fun to fit into a run.

Ultimate weapons sounds good to me. Again, it sounds fun, plus they look cool. I must be a sucker for swag accomplishments >_>;

[quote="FFgamer86"]I put more emphasis on all cards. If your gonna play the card game for certain cards and not others then it doesnt feel like it would be 100%.  Getting the cards is not that hard. We can play cards on disc 4 for every rare card other than Pupu which we need to do quest for.[/quote]
I was just going to say this.  The left girl of the Diamond Duo will always play the next rare card that you don't have, and you can easily manipulate her rules (aka Trabia's rules) with the RNG earlier in the game, so that's easy enough.

I would include the Chocobo quest.  It's not a grind fest, takes a degree of planning to execute properly, and it gives you something unique (free chocobos).  Fair warning, though: The Forest of Solitude may be as trollerific as the Rinoa name skip.

Ultima Weapon and Omega Weapon are purely side-quests and they offer nothing unique (as far as Ultima Weapon goes, Eden can be acquired from Tiamat & the Eden card from Left Diamond Girl).  There's no reason to fight them other than leaving no stone unturned.  Personally, I'd just like to fight them because it sounds fun to fit into a run.

Ultimate weapons sounds good to me.  Again, it sounds fun, plus they look cool.  I must be a sucker for swag accomplishments >_>;

FFgamer86

2012-07-25 04:04:54 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

The reward from the Chocobo Quest though is the Chicobo Card which you can get just as easily in disc 4.

Omega Weapon can be fought if you want to. You can mod the Gilgamesh card for 10 Holy Wars and make the fight simple with Squall Limit breaks.

Poxnor

2012-07-25 04:11:49 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

We might want to get someone in here who's worked on 100% RPG definitions before. Because, at least to my perception, the ultimate weapons and cards seem a lot like things that have been ruled out in the past.

Essentia

2012-07-25 05:09:25 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

For 100% definitions, SDA encourages succinct definitions instead of a checklist of things to get/complete. In FF6, all that is required is all characters and all espers, which leaves out one dungeon (Ebot's Rock) and a bunch of optional bosses (including Hidon, MagiMaster, and Atma). Since this also doesn't include getting all abilities/items/weapons, etc., it would be inconsistent for FF8 to have to get those kinds of things.

However, I personally think that having a 100% category for RPG runs is silly, because not everyone can agree on the definition of 100%. During my FF6 100% run at SGDQ, we had to keep explaining what we meant by 100%, whereas if we would have just said that it was an all characters/espers run, there wouldn't have been any confusion. I wouldn't have a problem with there being something like an all GFs category for FF8. Including anything else would just seem arbitrary, because you would be forced to do some sidequests while leaving others out.

DiscoCokkroach

2012-07-25 05:29:35 pm

Robot Master

Quote from FFgamer86:

The reward from the Chocobo Quest though is the Chicobo Card which you can get just as easily in disc 4.

Yeah, that's very true. I can agree on leaving it out.

Quote from Essentia:

snip about 100% runs

Very good point. By the same token, would a "Three GF Run" take the place of a low% run?

Caracarn

2012-07-25 05:38:06 pm

low% for Final Fantasy makes even less sense than 100%. Generally a speedrun is going to be pretty low% anyway, but making it lowest % will just make the run longer for no good reason.

FFgamer86

2012-07-25 07:03:10 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

Technically you can beat the game with no junctions, Thats low% more than junctioning?

DiscoCokkroach

2012-07-26 01:27:47 am

Robot Master

^ I think that's like saying a low% Metriod run would require you to only shoot the beam to open doors and kill bosses. I say: Don't get anything extra, but take advantage of whatever you have.

rayvex

2012-07-26 02:37:50 am

hi

Quote from Essentia:

For 100% definitions, SDA encourages succinct definitions instead of a checklist of things to get/complete. In FF6, all that is required is all characters and all espers, which leaves out one dungeon (Ebot's Rock) and a bunch of optional bosses (including Hidon, MagiMaster, and Atma). Since this also doesn't include getting all abilities/items/weapons, etc., it would be inconsistent for FF8 to have to get those kinds of things.

However, I personally think that having a 100% category for RPG runs is silly, because not everyone can agree on the definition of 100%. During my FF6 100% run at SGDQ, we had to keep explaining what we meant by 100%, whereas if we would have just said that it was an all characters/espers run, there wouldn't have been any confusion. I wouldn't have a problem with there being something like an all GFs category for FF8. Including anything else would just seem arbitrary, because you would be forced to do some sidequests while leaving others out.

Pretty much this.

[quote="Essentia"]For 100% definitions, SDA encourages succinct definitions instead of a checklist of things to get/complete. In FF6, all that is required is all characters and all espers, which leaves out one dungeon (Ebot's Rock) and a bunch of optional bosses (including Hidon, MagiMaster, and Atma). Since this also doesn't include getting all abilities/items/weapons, etc., it would be inconsistent for FF8 to have to get those kinds of things.

However, I personally think that having a 100% category for RPG runs is silly, because not everyone can agree on the definition of 100%. During my FF6 100% run at SGDQ, we had to keep explaining what we meant by 100%, whereas if we would have just said that it was an all characters/espers run, there wouldn't have been any confusion. I wouldn't have a problem with there being something like an all GFs category for FF8. Including anything else would just seem arbitrary, because you would be forced to do some sidequests while leaving others out.[/quote]

Pretty much this.

puwexil

2012-07-26 08:57:21 am

Professional Second Banana

I agree that trying to define low% or 100% in most RPGs usually doesn't really work. For low%, if it's even possible to beat the game using only starting/required equipment & abilities, then like Caracarn said there will usually need to be a lot of extra grinding/farming or much slower battle strats that make the run much less exciting to watch. For 100%, getting every treasure and doing every minigame/sidequest/optional boss would usually add hours and hours to the run without making it any better of a watch; and like Essentia said, alternative 100% definitions are arbitrary and it's rare for the entire speedrunning community for a game to agree on one (pretty much every 100% discussion I've seen about a Final Fantasy game has petered out without a consensus being reached).

If there's an alternative run type besides any% that's established and popular with a game's speedrunning community (like All Worlds completion for Kingdom Hearts II or Medallions, Stones & Trials for Ocarina of Time), the SDA admins will consider allowing run submissions of it; but a single runner contacting the admins and asking to submit an special category run of a game usually won't lead to that being approved for SDA submission.

I agree that trying to define low% or 100% in most RPGs usually doesn't really work.  For low%, if it's even possible to beat the game using only starting/required equipment & abilities, then like Caracarn said there will usually need to be a lot of extra grinding/farming or much slower battle strats that make the run much less exciting to watch.  For 100%, getting every treasure and doing every minigame/sidequest/optional boss would usually add hours and hours to the run without making it any better of a watch; and like Essentia said, alternative 100% definitions are arbitrary and it's rare for the entire speedrunning community for a game to agree on one (pretty much every 100% discussion I've seen about a Final Fantasy game has petered out without a consensus being reached).

If there's an alternative run type besides any% that's established and popular with a game's speedrunning community (like All Worlds completion for Kingdom Hearts II or Medallions, Stones & Trials for Ocarina of Time), the SDA admins will consider allowing run submissions of it; but a single runner contacting the admins and asking to submit an special category run of a game usually won't lead to that being approved for SDA submission.

FFgamer86

2012-07-26 12:16:32 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

Yeah, Instead of having 100% category, I think its more viable to have categories like ALL GFs or beat Omega Weapon

jpic

2012-08-25 07:41:00 am

Quote from Caracarn:

unfortunately, you have to have a premium nicovideo account to watch video archives. I will try to screencap the video before it expires when I get a chance.

I don't suppose you got round to capturing this cara?
I'm seriously considering running this game ss and would love to see it