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Flip: 2011-10-17 10:04:02 pm
1-Up!
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Easy segmented run.

Verifier Responses

Quote:
Decision: I would “pass/accept” this run... but it's a close call really.

Reason: Overall thoughts on the run

This is overall very well executed with the strategy and all. However some levels seems like they are frapsed during the first couple of tries, and could be improved by a little effort. And there's a lot of pausing and it's kinda of annoying to watch. It doesn't effect the ingame timer, but it sure does effect the viewing pleasure and the “actual time”. Still the run is impressive, and a lot of effort has surely been put into this run. Maybe also overtime other runner, maybe myself will improve the individual levels.

I will not comment on the quality, as I Saw it on youtube. I see no reason to suspect the runner of cheating or anything like that. As for counting the time... I am not sure how you should do it, personally I think the “pausing” time should count. But that's my personal preference.

Individual levels.

LEVEL 1:
The time I really good, at least the ingame timer. However I am not a big fan of the pausing in the first 20 seconds of the mission.
I do not know exactly how to measure the time for the run, by the viewing pleasure sure drops.
My own speedrun of the same level is slower in the “gametime” however I thinks it's faster in real time, thanks to not pausing in the start for 20 seconds.
With that said, it's still a solid tactic, and performed well. Room for improvement by not pausing, but if we ignore that, the level is done very very smooth.

Link to my run on level 1:

LEVEL 2:
I really like the tactic used for this level. I didn't knew about the transportboat glitch until this very runner showed it to me... however there's still the usage of “pause”.
My run is only 10 seconds slower without using the pausing, and my actual game time is still lower.  The run is however, still very impressive.

Link to my run on level 2:

LEVEL 3:
This level, far better than the last two. The pausing is at a minimum, and the time is brilliant.

LEVEL 4:
Done exactly as I would do it on my later runs, simple and easy... and yet so effective. Well done.

LEVEL 5:
Good run, not much to add. Maybe room for minor improvement with the mirco and killing the buildings in the end, but nothing major.

LEVEL 6:
This is a pretty straight forward level... and we have the same “issue” as with  level 1 and 2.
The pause is improving the ingame time, but the real time could be improved by a little bit, if we didn't pause. Still a fast clear of the level...

LEVEL 7:
The best level so far in my humble opinion. Only room for very small improvements.

LEVEL 8:
Really nice trick (discovered by me?), anyways really fast time for such a level. But I still think it could be done without that much pausing. It would do increase the viewer pleasure, however it would most likely hurt the in game time, as it's pretty damn close to perfect ! Smiley

LEVEL 9:
Weird black screen in the start of the level, don't know why? Also Gargarensis, is for some reason standing in the middle ? Why is that ? I guess it's the lightning storm you use really early before the viewer can see. Are you just playing in darkness, or do we need the first second of the mission or something ?

Besides that, it's a good run. Only room for slight improvements, still a few times you pause, and I think you could do it without.

LEVEL 10:
A good run, but you still have hit the pause bottom a lot. Less frequently than earlier levels, but still enough to  annoy me. THERE'S no god damn reason for it. Still only a few seconds you would shave of the “actual” time, so not a big issue.
On level I might add you made good use of those shades. Well done.

LEVEL 11:
How is your time so much better than mine ?


I get 08:14, could indeed be better. But you get 07.57.
And sorry if you've said it during the run, I can't read it due 360 res.

Oh and the pausing in the start is pretty long for what you are doing... however you still get almost 20 seconds faster than me, so maybe I am the idiot.?

LEVEL 12:
It's a nice level, but the age teching is WAY to slow for no reason ? This level should be redone. Such an obvious mistake...

LEVEL 13:
Well done, not much to add. Could maybe be done with a sec slower pausing in the start, but that's about it.

LEVEL 14:
Nice and easy, I like the trick with going into the citadel in the start.

LEVEL 15:
You can use the same trick as in 13 to speed up the card. This was done with some pausing but still:
http://imageshack.us/f/200/level15c.jpg/
With that said, it still a very very nice run.

LEVEL 16:
I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but level “2”, could be done with less saving.
Still impressive none the less, and good use of the Hydra for more of Arkantos roars.

LEVEL 17:
Best level so far, and god knows how you found figured out the transport glitch :-)

LEVEL 18:
Why the god damn need for pausing in the start?
It will at max give you one or two seconds!
Still easy level, not much to say.

LEVEL 19:
Well done, surprisingly easy :-)

LEVEL 20:
I guess you technically could improve the time by the level 13 trick. But the time is still very impressive!

LEVEL 21:
What's the reason for waiting such a long time with building the 3'ed minotaur?
Anyways, a good and fast level no doubt.

LEVEL 22:
Really really impressive! The timing is perfect, and we see no mistakes. Very nice level!

LEVEL 23:
The level I for one had must trouble with... you for once build a base !
Anyways very well done, could be a little better split with the units in the end, but that's about that. Very VERY nice run!

LEVEL 24:
You lose your armory, and for that reason lose a lot of wood. Which in the end results in the 3'ed ram is greatly delayed and so is the whole speedrun of this level.
Should be redone.

LEVEL 25:
Sure it's quick. But the pause in the start is too slow, should use shift when you give the orders. This could be done slightly faster in “real” time I think. Still fast!

LEVEL 26:
Not much to say, just plain and simply push forward. Nice kiting and good managing of everything. Well done

LEVEL 27:
Room for small improvements, as well as less pausing in the middle of the action. Anyways it's fast.

LEVEL 28:
This could also be done without the pausing. Anyways only a matter a few seconds. You're after all very fast!

LEVEL 29:
weird Windows sounds? Anyways... Good level, as always could it be done with less pausing ?

LEVEL 30:
I can't read the text : ( Anyways is boooooring as expected, but not your fault. Just a stupid level for speedrunning. Anyways, I think you could pause a second less in the beginning, but who cares when the level takes freaking 32 min!

LEVEL 31:
Very nice... now just with less pauses it would be more enjoyable to watch. But this is no doubt the fastest it could be done, if we don't count the pauses.

LEVEL 32:
Pretty sure it could be done faster, with one extra vault. But not sure? Less pausing would decrease the “actual time”. Anyways very nice. Good way of finishing the run none the less.


Quote:
Decision: Reject

Reason:
I enjoyed watching the run, and can definitely tell that the runner has spent a considerable amount of time planning everything, but I'm afraid I feel that this speed run does not live up to SDA's standards. There is an excessive use of the pause button, which increases the real-world run time (while decreasing the time measured by the in-game timer). The player is still in control of the units while pausing, hence this time should be taken into account. If we would not include such pausing, then there is no reason for the speed run to be nearly TAS-like, since every move can easily be perfected. Furthermore, the runner didn't use of several game mechanics that would greatly increase his APM (Actions per minute), such as assigning groups or using hotkeys for, for instance, selecting the HQ and getting some villagers. Instead he relies on scrolling and selecting all units manually at all times.

The video quality was very bad (360p on Youtube), but this is most likely due to Youtube's terrible compression. It made the verification process a bit difficult, as it was, for instance, difficult to tell how many resources the runner had at times. Sound quality was perfect, on the other hand. I presume that the A/V quality of the actual recording is a lot better.

I believe the runner did not cheat at any time.

Here are my comments for the individual levels:

Level 1: The level is very simple, almost tutorial-like, and hence doesn’t make use of any really clever strategy. Nevertheless, I don’t really see any room for improvement, apart from building the three towers near the harbours a tiny bit sooner (when the third kraken shows up). The runner didn’t have a large abundance of any resource.

Level 2: The start of this level seemed a bit too slow (harbour placement, for instance). Ships were also idle around 1:50 – something that shouldn’t really be happening with this low number of unit. The runner makes use of seemingly unnecessary pausing, which probably costs him a few seconds. I quite like the glitch of making the units teleport, though. Nevertheless, the level was beaten fairly quickly. I liked the use of the wall at the end.

Level 3: Quite precise placement by the player at the beginning. The targets that had to be destroyed to complete the level were demolished nearly simultaneously; the timing and hence allocation of units seemed to be quite efficient.

Level 4: Very well done.

Level 5: Minor discrepancy here; the units are all selected before the screen is visible; Would like to know how the runner pulled that off. Seems like there was simply no video for the first second. Other than that, the runner manages to roll straight through the enemy base. Windows sound at 2:05 – why was that audible? Seems a bit odd if you’re in-game. Sound is again hearable at 3:03…

Level 6: Not much to say about this level; the runner simply gathers as much wood as possible and then builds the horse. Most of it is kind of like watching paint dry. The end portion of the level was handled efficiently, with the runner distracting the enemy infantry while stealing the siege units. Good use of the god powers.

Level 7: Very straight forward level where the runner simply rushes through everything by ignoring most of the infantry he runs into. Good use of the god powers.

Level 8: All the pausing seems quite unnecessary since all those actions could just as well have been performed in real time. Runner spends quite a few seconds trying to position the underworld passage correctly around the 3-minute mark; I think it could’ve been done a bit quicker. The good use of this god power makes up for it, though.

Level 9: Black screen for the first second. Bit strange, since the units were already being controlled. I don’t see why Gargarensis is standing idly near the ram; is there some kind of glitch involved, which was not recorded (due to the black screen)? Idle soldiers at 3:20.  This is a level with little action, and mostly just waiting until the ram finally dies.

Level 10: I again fail to see the purpose of pausing right at the start.. The level isn’t particularly interesting, but is run through in a quickly fashion.

Level 11: Completely unnecessary pausing at the start. I also can’t read what the runner typed around the start. Some issues with micro-management around 4:00 (though it doesn’t really matter much). Very little to remark about this level; it’s just a matter of waiting until the miners have uncovered the relic.

Level 12: More excessive pausing. The strategy used is good, but all the pausing makes the level take considerably longer than it should. Furthermore, the runner has an excessive amount of food available when he finally clicks the ‘age up’ button. Doing so would have allowed him to teleport the units sooner, thus finishing the level sooner.

Level 13: Not much to say about this level. It’s completed swiftly, though the pausing at the start seems partly redundant (though in this case, it would’ve made very little difference).

Level 14: Excellent run through this level. But *why* does the runner pause at the very end…?

Level 15: Pause, pause, pause… this has gotten quite tiring. Love the use of meteorites to destroy the gate, though Smiley

Level 16: Screw all this pausing.

Level 17: Fantastic use of the transporter glitch. Also clever use of jumps to make the character walk a bit faster. Best level in the speed run.

Level 18: *shrug* More pausing…  Apart from that, the level was completed very well.

Level 19: Well done.

Level 20: Good job – don’t see any room for improvement here.

Level 21: Another simple, fast level. Not really much to say about it.

Level 22: Arkantos’ text loops twice, for some reason. Bit odd. This level was coordinated very well and thus completed very impressively.

Level 23: Perfectly timed age-up near the end. This must have been one of the more difficult level to run through. Very impressive.

Level 24: Screw up with the armoury – first one got destroyed, which wasted some resources and time. This could easily have been improved substantially.

Level 25: Shame about the huge pause at the start. Other than that, it’s done quite well.

Level 26: Not much to say here. Good run through a simple level.

Level 27: Good job on clearing the path for the larger army.

Level 28: Very well done.

Level 29: Bit slow at the start. Another ‘windows error sound’ around 1:10 and 1:20. APM is low in general during this level, with the runner sometimes hesitating about where to move some units.  The level is mostly a waiting game, but nevertheless, well done.

Level 30: As the runner already realises the level cannot really be speed run, so it doesn’t matter that much what he does at the start, and what his APM is. Streamer wastes several seconds when selecting the final age. No idea why the player clicks on the unit-bio several times throughout this run. Why the damned pause at the end?

Level 31: Another level that is plagued by excessive pausing.

Level 32: Slow selection at the 1:20 minute mark. Very long pausing to give out orders. Good strategy – good control over Arkantos at the end.


Quote from Verifier 1:
In retrospect, when I look at the run again, and thinking about counting the pausing time, it's simply too much to accept the run.
I would, REJECT the run now, and I think I was wrong before. Verifier 2 is absolutly correct in his comments.
I know it would had been better if I realised this the first time around, but I made a mistake, and I will not make it twice, this run, as much as I would love to accept it, isn't SDA run, too easy to improve, and annoying to watch at times.


Decision: Reject

Reason: This run, while planned out, doesn't utilize enough time saving strategies.

This run was never completely torrented to us and verifiers had to use segments on YouTube, so I can't send it to you. You can find it on YouTube.
Thread title:  
Wow, i must say this is a big disapointment.
I can understand why you might reject the run for the excessive pausing, but i followed the rules completely. If i remember correctly, pausing is encouraged to minimise your time. Viewing pleasure is not as important.

As for the quality of my run, i dont see how anyone could even say that the time could be significantly reduced. There is one level which could be down alot quicker ( level 23), but other than that, at most, and other than that, certain levels might be done 1 or 2 seconds quicker.

I beat verifier 1's speedrun time by more than 30 minutes. Most of my strategies are unique and innovative.
There will not be anyone who achieves a faster time than this.

But its your call, and i respect it.
If any of the verifiers would like to contact me, i would gladly explain what i do in each level, because to be honest, i dont think you are appreciating the difficulty of obtaining these times
Don't know what to speedrun :(
Good effort Twisted. I'm certainly not an authority on this but I'm sure some people see excessive pause times as "not playing skillfully" which is something SDA looks for. I'm sorry that got in the way of an accept considering it didn't affect the time.

I would definitely give it another go. Sounds like you have good strategies you just need to tighten up the execution a little.
Well I agree with the pausing. If you have control in any way while the game is paused (like being able to select/order units or move the map around), it should count as elapsed time. I'm not sure what the rules say but that's just my opinion.
Edit history:
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 05:22:22 pm
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 05:18:21 pm
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 05:14:54 pm
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 05:14:18 pm
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 05:12:57 pm
ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 05:12:37 pm
Always unfortunate when a runner feels their run has been rejected unfairly. I haven't played this game or watched much of the run, but let me weigh in here with such thoughts as I have (and if I'm wrong on any facts, please correct me).

1) My understanding of this rejection is that it happened because, in verifier 2's opinion, pausing and lack of hotkey usage cost time - not simply because pausing was used per se. TE, as you say, at SDA you are expected not to make decisions that sacrifice time for viewing pleasure. I think the complaint about the pausing also being irritating was secondary and not relevant to the rejection.

That said, Flip's rejection reason is incredibly vague and unclear here. Somehow "excessive use of the pause button" and "the runner didn't use of several game mechanics that would greatly increase his APM" (the complaints that led verifier 2 to reject) have transformed into "doesn't utilize enough time saving strategies", even though no faster strategies were suggested anywhere in either verifier's response as far as I noticed. Perhaps I am reading between the lines incorrectly, here, but I get the feeling that Flip wasn't very clear in his own mind why this run was getting rejected (and perhaps isn't too familiar with the RTS genre full stop, I dunno), but figured that since both verifiers had voted to reject, he didn't have a choice.

2) The rules on pausing in RTSes have never really been discussed at SDA. The only RTS runs on the site, I think, are the Age of Empires 3 (and expo) and Warcraft 3 (and expo) runs. Neither of these use pausing or game speed manipulation although the option is available in-game. You are correct that the rules state that pausing should be used where it saves time; however, I think that was written with pause glitches and stuff like inventory screens in mind, not RTS-style pausing where you pause to give orders to units.

However, since the rejection here was for play quality, and not because of an objection to the use of pausing in principle, I don't think these rules issues are relevant here, so I'll shut up about them for now. Just to be clear, though, the pause time absolutely must be counted in a case like this, even if that means using manual timing instead of the in-game timer. Otherwise, as verifier 2 points out, the optimal way to play would be to pause every fraction of a second to micro every unit perfectly and achieve near-TAS perfection. Plainly that goes against the spirit of SDA rules, and of non-TAS speedrunning generally. I'm assuming you realised this and were clear that the pause time would be included.

3) Reading the verifiers' responses, I get the impression that:

* Verifier 1 had at least partially considered the issue of time lost to pausing, and still decided to accept. Then after verifier 2 rejected he was influenced to change his decision, without doing anything (as far as we can see from his response, anyway) in the way of calculating the time cost or trying to reason out for sure whether the pausing actually costs time overall. Basically he changed his mind because somebody else, going on the same facts and same reasoning and arguments as he had already considered, came to a different judgement call. I can't help but suspect that verifier 1's change of heart basically came down to a lack of confidence when somebody disagreed with him - perhaps due to being a newbie here and not too familiar with SDA's standards? I don't know who he is, I just get that impression.

* Verifier 2 didn't really provide adequate reasons for rejection. He mentions excessive pausing and lack of control groups as issues but makes no attempt at all to demonstrate that those issues actually cost any significant time, or guesstimate how much. Plainly the micro benefits of pausing will, in some circumstances, outweigh the time cost of the game being paused. However, it's entirely possible that this is just a lack of detail in his comments, rather than a case of him actually not thinking stuff through.

4) Control groups are a pretty fundamental aspect of RTS control and it sounds from the verification responses like you didn't use them at all. If this is the case, then that alone would make me feel like rejection might be on the cards. You're surely severely hampering your micro by trying to do an RTS run without control group usage? Still, I have no idea how much time this actually cost you. Also, there are mistakes mentioned like pausing in fixed-time levels that just obviously shouldn't be in the run and make no sense.

I'd be interested to hear you confirm that you made this run on the assumption that paused time would be counted, and to hear some kind of breakdown of the time difference between your strats and alternatives that don't involve pausing. It's hard to tell for sure just from reading the verification responses whether this rejection was reasonable or not, although just the control groups thing alone makes me think it was probably the right decision.
lol these idiots have no idea what a good speed run is. IMO any other speed run that was verified by them deserves no credit if they can't even recognize the amazing talent that went into creating this one...
Is it me or are they rejecting it simply because it's a better time than theirs?
We all scream for Eyes Cream
Quote from MisterDot:
lol these idiots have no idea what a good speed run is. IMO any other speed run that was verified by them deserves no credit if they can't even recognize the amazing talent that went into creating this one...
Is it me or are they rejecting it simply because it's a better time than theirs?


It's posts like this that make me think guest posting should not be allowed.
No control group usage in an RTS = automatic reject IMO. Taking advantage of control groups in any RTS would greatly increase effective APM because you're using fewer key strokes and mouse movements to accomplish the same task (in some cases, much, much fewer). The use of control groups might actually completely negate the need to pause at all, the difference is that radical in some games.

I suppose each individual case would require context, but I find it very hard to imagine an RTS where using control groups doesn't make things significantly faster and easier.
SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)
Quote from MisterDot:
lol these idiots have no idea what a good speed run is. IMO any other speed run that was verified by them deserves no credit if they can't even recognize the amazing talent that went into creating this one...
Is it me or are they rejecting it simply because it's a better time than theirs?


O yea, I "agree" how dare other people reject my speed runs for new games...  It isn't like other people would possible consider speed running the games I speed run...

*ends sarcasm*

First off, just because you submit a new game, doesn't mean you automatically get an auto-accept, if anything else, it puts even more pressure on you to perform a satisfactory speed run...  2nd, the idea of "idiots that have no idea what a good speed run is," because they are verifying the run, that actually does mean they have an idea what a good run is, and by all means, if you think you can do a better job, register and help with the verification; heck even if you were part of the verification, this run might have been rejected still since the execution still wasn't properly explained as to why the runner did what he did (no offense to the runner, of course).  3rd, I can say by personal experience that it isn't a matter of "Because it's a better time than theirs" if a run doesn't have good execution, that means it can be done better...

With all that said, to the runner:  Just because a run is rejected doesn't mean you should give up.  You should take what was told and utilize it in order to make an even better run...  I'm sure the whole lot of us would love to see this run get added to the site...

As for RTS, Mr. Cabbage left out Starcraft as well...  I hate to play RTS games myself since it is all about micromanaging an army and keeping in touch resources, armies, enemies and etc. so I wouldn't be one to say how this run should have worked, but I'm sure you will be able to make it work...

Best of luck on your future endeavors runner...
1-Up!
Only had 2 verifiers for this run Sad . When there was a split decision initially I prodded for more information to make my decision. Verifier 1 came back and changed his verdict. Also, pausing was used extensively to lower the in-game time, but since there is control available during the pause, this game would be timed manually. This run isn't optimized for manual timing and doesn't utilize groups or hotkeys. This coupled with both verifiers feeling that the general play quality is not up to par is the reason for my rejection. Apologies for the vauge Reason in the first post.
Edit history:
TwIsTeD_EnEmY: 2011-10-19 08:09:52 pm
TwIsTeD_EnEmY: 2011-10-19 08:05:12 pm
TwIsTeD_EnEmY: 2011-10-19 08:04:02 pm
TwIsTeD_EnEmY: 2011-10-19 08:02:28 pm
Quote from Youkai:
Good effort Twisted. I'm certainly not an authority on this but I'm sure some people see excessive pause times as "not playing skillfully" which is something SDA looks for. I'm sorry that got in the way of an accept considering it didn't affect the time.

I would definitely give it another go. Sounds like you have good strategies you just need to tighten up the execution a little.


No, im done with it
I spent 3 months working on this speedrun, constant starting/ restarting of levels to get things just right, and for what- for 2 verifyers- 1 of which shows signs of not understanding the game, and another who even though he deemed his own run superb, and yet i beat his time by 30 minutes ,to tell me my run isn;t good enough?
I did everything right, i followed the rules to a T, and this is what i get, a few " well dones" , and a few thousand views on youtube and having to wait more than 6 months to get a 2 and a half hour video verified? I could have been doing something useful with my time.
Thanks for the "nice try", but apparently having all 32 levels speedrun WR's isn';t enough for SDA.

Edit:  To the people who have commented on my lack of hotkeys and unit grouping, those 2 things had no effect on my speedrun. If there were ever a time in my run where i would need to do this, i would simply pause and do it. As far as the rules i read go, pauses were allowed if it maximises your time, and thats what it did. If your rejecting my speedrun because of that, than fine, perhaps be a bit more clear on the rules next time, but dont you Dare say that my speedrun lacks quality.
1-Up!
I'm sorry that you didn't understand the rules. If you don't want to improve your run and resubmit, so be it.
I'm assuming that this rule is the basis for the rejection: "If the pausing is beneficial for your speedrun (e.g., speeding up boss fights in Mega Man), it is recommended to do so. However, don't try to manipulate the timer. We will switch to manual timing in that case, and you would only be hurting your time. Extraneous pausing will not be factored out of your time, and your run will probably be rejected for poor play quality."

Whether the pausing is beneficial or not would really have to be on a case to case basis. I don't know this game, so I can't say whether it is in this case or not, but the verifiers must have felt that it was not.
Okay, it's clear now that the runner thought that the in-game timer would be used despite pausing. It's unfortunate that the runner thought this, especially since it seems to be reasonable conclusion to reach after reading the FAQ and Rules. It seems like an obvious thing to check on the forum before starting a run, though. Another runner falls victim to not asking questions or posting videos until the run was done. :/

That said, if you thought pause time was going to b factored out, your micro of every individual unit at every moment should have been perfect. I've just watched three randomly selected levels of your run on YouTube and, bluntly, they are not perfect. Units bump into each other when moving together. Units get left idle for seconds before they are remembered and brought into the fight. Melee troops take inefficient paths around each other to get into position when all attacking the same target. With the infinite micro that pausing makes possible, there is no reason for a run that aims to minimise the time on the timer to have even such minor imperfections.
I thought the same thing too about EnEmY's speed run; if he was using pausing, why not minimize imperfections? IMO all it would do is reduce each run by about 5 seconds, at most. I don't see why this exempts this from being a proper speed run. If someone were to take the time to minimize all those imperfections, they would get a better speed run than this one. To my knowledge, no one has done this, so this speed run still remains the fastest run of the AOM campaign. I don't see why you don't give that credit.

Also, I would like to know what the manual time of EnEmY's AOM campaign speed run is, because despite frequent pausing, I'm pretty sure that the manual time as well is still actually faster than the manual time of any other speed run that has been done. EnEmY put a lot of effort into this, so I honestly think you should reconsider your decision.
Im sad to see an RTS run get rejected - SDA needs more RTS runs in general Sad

Its especially sad because the rejection seems to be based on the fact that the runner has misunderstood the rules. It kinda bothers me how that could even happen? I am fairly certain the runner did post a topic about his run, even though i personally didnt pay close attention to it. Somebody should have picked up on it.

Slightly off topic: Isnt there obvious rules about what constitutes 'normal game speed' in RTS games? Here im thinking of games like starcraft for instance, where you could obviously improve the game timer by playing in slow game in speed.
Quote from Liderharen:
Its especially sad because the rejection seems to be based on the fact that the runner has misunderstood the rules.


Yes, but since the runner didn't actually properly optimise the run for the timing method he thought would be used, I don't think that any great injustice has happened here.

Quote:
It kinda bothers me how that could even happen?


Yeah, I agree with this, though. Rules confusions on this scale are bad, bad things that it would be best if we could eliminate totally - the fact that it probably didn't make a difference in this case notwithstanding.

Quote:
I am fairly certain the runner did post a topic about his run, even though i personally didnt pay close attention to it. Somebody should have picked up on it.


I checked in the thread and unfortunately the runner neither mentioned pausing nor posted any videos until the entire run was finished.

Quote:
Slightly off topic: Isnt there obvious rules about what constitutes 'normal game speed' in RTS games? Here im thinking of games like starcraft for instance, where you could obviously improve the game timer by playing in slow game in speed.


I don't think there's ever been an 'official' ruling on this. However up until now, I think, all RTS runs have been done on default game speed without pausing.
Well the default game speed in SC/SC2 is normal but people play on the fastest possible. This is because the in-game timer is independent of game speed hence you would get a much worse time running the game on a slower speed. Naturally when the clock is not in sync with the game speed I would think it's allowed to lower the game speed while playing, but maybe there needs to be more defined rules for RTS games.
Make it so.
Quote from Freezard:
maybe there needs to be more defined rules for RTS games.


This seems to be the overreaching impression I've got from reading this thread to be honest.
1-Up!
While it's a bummer that the runner didn't understand the rules, the fact remains that the run isn't optimized for either method of timing. This is a fundamental error that more exposure on the forums might have avoided. I double checked the Age of Mythology thread to be sure, and sure enough no videos were posted and pausing wasn't discussed. Unfortunate. In my opinion, the rules are clear that pausing for the purpose of timer manipulation could make your run qualify for manual timing. Is it not clear?
Edit history:
Youkai: 2011-10-20 07:13:55 pm
Youkai: 2011-10-20 07:13:36 pm
Don't know what to speedrun :(
From: http://speeddemosarchive.com/lang/faq_en.html
Quote:
However, don't try to manipulate the timer. We will switch to manual timing in that case, and you would only be hurting your time. Extraneous pausing will not be factored out of your time, and your run will probably be rejected for poor play quality.

Seems pretty clear to me.
Guys, so what if this run only qualifies for manual timing. I'm sure it beats any other manual timed runs by a mile. Sure, it's not fully optimized for either method; with pausing or without, but I think you guys would be hard pressed to find someone who has the patience to optimize a speed run any more than this one. At least give EnEmY credit for that?
I mean it just makes me really angry to see how you complement him several times on his speed run, only to reject it.

My point: Even if it takes 99999999 hours to complete, a speed run is a speed run, and it stands until someone else does it in less time...
And incidentally this time is not at all easy to improve on. You should try to beat this time yourself before judging.
1-Up!
MisterDot, either make an account or sign in to your real one. This run isn't optimized for manual timing. That doesn't mean it doesn't show skill. TE (or anyone) is more than welcome to optimize the strats for one timing method or the other.
Make it so.
Flip makes a very good point there actually. The point of this site is quality, not just world records.