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Edit history:
nate: 2008-05-06 06:23:11 pm
farewell, vhs.

old info:

effective 1 january 2008 only people on the below list may send in vhs tapes to sda. if you have a run on vhs you want to submit, please capture it yourself using e.g. a dvd recorder. more information can be found in the kb.

list of people who have an extension to 1 may 2008:
Floogal
Jacob91
rashreflection
gia
neo-tze
JRL
andrewg
Essentia
dj_ultima
Breakdown
WarMech
DLH112
scaryice
Spider-Waffle
spikevegeta
spineshark
scaryice


older info:

i've talked about sda phasing out submissions on vhs for a long time, but today i want to make an official announcement about it.

the prices of dvd recorders are dropping quickly, and a new dvd recorder will soon cost about as much as a decent new video tape recorder (vhs vcr). i believe this will happen no later than this coming christmas etc season.

vhs is a technology that should have died with the 8-track tape. superior alternatives have been available for over 15 years. unfortunately, none of these alternatives had universal support from manufacturers, and so some of us are here in 2007 still recording our runs using 1977 technology. i think it's safe to say that is older than most of us.

handling submissions on vhs requires me to operate no fewer than five additional pieces of equipment with a price range of $100 to $400 per unit. if any of these units breaks (as vhs units are likely to do), i must replace it out of my own pocket. i have zero use for these units outside of sda.

handling submissions on dvd, by contrast, requires only my computer. additionally, you (the runner) don't have to spend any money on shipping with dvd, because you can simply send the .vob files off the dvd to me over the internet (and even if you do decide to mail in the dvds themselves, they are several times lighter than vhs tapes, saving you a lot of money--especially when submitting from outside the united states).

recording using dvd is not without problems of its own, but the alternative, vhs, is far worse. for the reasons outlined above, i will stop accepting submissions on vhs on 1 january 2008.

a twilight period will begin on that date; if you have no other method of submission, or if you are trying to finish a run on vhs by 1 january 2008 and simply cannot make it, notify me of the problem by 1 january 2008, and i will be willing accept the tape on a case by case basis until 1 may 2008. after 1 may 2008 i will accept no vhs tape for any reason.

thank you for your understanding, and long live sda!


FAQ

Q: Does this mean I can't record on VHS anymore?!
A: no, it just means you can't submit on vhs. you can buy a dvd recorder and copy your vhs tapes to dvd, then submit those. however, it's better to just buy a dvd recorder right now and use that instead of vhs.

Q: What about PAL-60 (Europe, Australia, etc)? I've heard you can't record PAL-60 on DVD.
A: it is true that pal-60 is presenting some problems for recording on dvd, just as it did on vhs. however, most (though not all) pal games still have a 50 hz mode, so you're welcome to record in that. otherwise, i will update this topic as i learn more about dvd recorders that might be able to record pal-60.
UPDATE: yautjaelder asserts that his Pioneer DVR-433H is capable of recording pal-60. please use this dvd recorder if you need to record in pal-60.

Q: What about media compatibility? How can I guarantee you will be able to read what's on my DVDs?
A: first of all, you can simply send the .vob files to me over the internet, and i won't have to read your dvds at all. if you must submit physical media, i recommend using taiyo yuden media. this is the highest quality mass produced media in the world, virtually guaranteed to work in any dvd drive ever made. please check out this online store if you are in the us to buy guaranteed ty media at excellent prices. otherwise, please seek out a ty dealer in your region.

Q: Don't DVD recorders introduce lag between button presses and what I see on the TV? Won't getting around this add to the price of recording using DVD?
A: not necessarily (to the second half of the question). runners have come up with all kinds of creative solutions to the lag problem, and remember that if all else fails, you can simply record on vhs first, then transfer to dvd later when the lag won't bother you.

Q: In addition to DVDs, will you continue to accept runs directly captured via a hardware encoder card?
A: yes. just make sure you can capture with it at d1 f2 (that is, at least 640x480 29.97 fps ntsc or at least 704x576 25 fps pal).
Thread title:  
torch slug since 2006
Oh shit. Must be good on some game fast! so I can record it and submit o.0..

I wish that we had a DVD recorder..

4NT
I am currently doing some research into the PAL-60 matter. Since retailers doesn't have a clue about PAL-60 compability and the companies do not mention anything about it I am contacting their supports. Will be interesting to see if they answer.
guffaw
Quote:
I am currently doing some research into the PAL-60 matter. Since retailers doesn't have a clue about PAL-60 compability and the companies do not mention anything about it I am contacting their supports. Will be interesting to see if they answer.


I talked to Pioneer when I was trying to get a DVD recorder that I could use to run PAL-60 only Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and they told me that none of their devices would support PAL-60 as it was "nonstandard".

I'll just mention something about PAL-60 and NTSC. Many DVD recorders will record both PAL (50) and NTSC - my Panasonic ES10 for example has no problem with either. Since PAL-60 is basically just NTSC but using PAL chroma carrier frequency, in theory if you could bypass the colour encoding step then PAL-60 and NTSC would be exactly the same thing and you could just pretend the signal was NTSC.

There is a way to do this: RGB. Consoles for years have had RGB outputs in PAL regions, and with baseband colour being sent down 3 separate cables and no carrier frequency, what you have there is basically just NTSC before the colour is encoded onto a single wire.

Unfortunately my Panasonic device will not accept an NTSC signal in this format, i.e. if you switch input to NTSC, it won't accept it via SCART in RGB format. However, those of you in PAL regions with DVD recorders and RGB cables might like to try running a game in PAL-60, sending the signal as RGB down a SCART cable, and then telling the DVD recorder that it's actually NTSC.Mine won't do it, and neither did the Pioneer model I tried, but your mileage may vary.

The other option would be to take the PAL-60 RGB signal and just modulate the colour onto the NTSC chroma carrier rather than the PAL one. For this job, I looked into building a device based around this integrated circuit made by Analog Devices which will do exactly what I have just described. My attempts at this failed rather miserably, due in large part to the fact that I don't have a fully equipped electronics lab in my bedroom, but I am convinced the theory is sound and that something that can solve this problem could be built for not very much money at all - so if there are any budding electronic engineers out there, feel free to give it a shot. If not, I'd like to have another try at getting this working but obviously I have too much other stuff to do at the present time.
Edit history:
YautjaElder: 2007-02-14 03:06:45 pm
Speed is the key.
Heh, I've got this one and it supports recording PAL in 60Hz mode.

http://www.plasmapanel.net/images/Pioneer%20DVR-433H.jpg

I feel very lucky now, since I had no knowledge about recording whatsoever when I bought it, I just picked one that looked nice and had a harddrive.
4NT
Did a quick search for the mentioned recorder and I have found it, but none in stock on any webshop. (Still waiting for Pioneer to reply, though.)

This far I have gotten replies from Sony and Philips. Sony says none of theirs have PAL-60 support. Philips says one of their models might have it (because it supports NTSC), but gives no guarantee.
Yeah, I said it.
I just want to say that I think this is a very good decision. The video quality of the average run will go up, and the backlog will likely go down, which will make everyone happier. If anything, I'm surprised you're giving people that long to still use VHS.
Edit history:
DJGrenola: 2007-02-14 03:53:48 pm
guffaw
Quote:
Heh, I've got this one and it supports recording PAL in 60Hz mode.

http://www.plasmapanel.net/images/Pioneer%20DVR-433H.jpg

I feel very lucky now, since I had no knowledge about recording whatsoever when I bought it, I just picked one that looked nice and had a harddrive.


Are you absolutely positive about that (i.e., have you tested it) ? Pioneer told me categorically that none of their machines could do it, although that was getting on for a year ago now.
Speed is the key.
Quote:
Are you absolutely positive about that (i.e., have you tested it) ? Pioneer told me categorically that none of their machines could do it, although that was getting on for a year ago now.

Yeah, I've recorded tons of stuff in both 50 and 60Hz.
guffaw
that's great news.
Edit history:
nate: 2007-02-14 04:32:00 pm
you're 100% sure it wasn't ntsc you were recording (you checked to see that what was recorded appeared in color)?

just making sure before i recommend this dvd recorder in the above faq.
Speed is the key.
Quote:
you're 100% sure it wasn't ntsc you were recording (you checked to see that what was recorded appeared in color)?

Yeah, all recordings had color.

All the OoT videos (except for some that are recorded from Project64) on my youtube account are recorded from a PAL copy of the collector's edition for gcn, which runs in 60Hz.

The TP videos there were recorded from a PAL copy of the game, but while playing in 60Hz mode.
updated first post.
guffaw
posted in main site news.
4NT
I have now gotten reply from LG who say no PAL-60.

Also, the Pioneer DVR-433H is not being made anymore, hopefully the later models use the same circuitry or good luck huntning one down.
Quote:
most (though not all) pal games still have a 50 hz mode, so you're welcome to record in that


With the GameCube, 50HZ mode runs more slowly than 60HZ mode. Would this affect the Run's possibiliy of being accepted?
Yes, a bunny riding a towel
Quote:
Many DVD recorders will record both PAL (50) and NTSC

eh? are you sure you don't mean playback? everywhere I look when trying to find one that records both PAL & NTSC, it only says they can playback both. it's insanely rare to find one capable of actually recording both. I've asked many stores here and they all said that in our country it won't be possible to get it, so I'd have to get it elsewhere. luckily I have a good Swedish pal which has an used unit, used for the same intentions that I have when using it. He now offered me to buy it from him for 350 euro (that includes send cost from Sweden to The Netherlands). There's still warranty too. But if you can get dvd recorders capable of what I need in stores nearby you and for some reason it doesn't work out with that offer, I'd really like more specifics, since it sounds too good to be true when I've been having such a hard time just to find one.

although I do suspect that the businessmen in stores know jackshit about it even though they pretend to know, and that some of them are capable of recording both, maybe by going through special means for it, using intellect and such. but I wouldn't buy a bunch to try them out until I found one that can do it. they might not even accept me returning it when they already made it clear before that it wasn't capable of doing what I asked for either.

finally, if all else fails, I had thought of one more solution, but I don't know if it would work:
buy dvd recorder that records PAL only, hook my vcr that can record both to it, hook my n64 to the vcr, vcr setting 'output' as 'pal tv', so it would send a pal signal to the dvd recorder, and hook dvd recorder to tv Wink

that was just an idea I had, but it would have to be tested.
Quote:

With the GameCube, 50HZ mode runs more slowly than 60HZ mode. Would this affect the Run's possibiliy of being accepted?

would put it in a separate category. metroid prime is really the only one i have experience with and it is 99% the same in 50 or 60 hz. only known difference is not significant.
Hi! I'm andrewg!
"Q: Does this mean I can't record on VHS anymore?!
A: no, it just means you can't submit on vhs. you can buy a dvd recorder and copy your vhs tapes to dvd, then submit those. however, it's better to just buy a dvd recorder right now and use that instead of vhs."

I'm glad you allow this. My runs will still probably have poor quality, until I can get a DVD player.
In addition to DVDs, will you continue to accept runs directly captured via a hardware encoder card?  For instance, 720x480 MPEG2 at 29.97 fps with bitrate 6000 Kbps from a Hauppauge PVR-350?

One nice advantage of the PVR-350: it has video out as well as video in, and it includes a hardware video passthrough mode, with no delay that I can discern.  That solves the lag problem.
Existence as you know it is over
If it doesn't involve vhs, it should be fine.
Quote:
In addition to DVDs, will you continue to accept runs directly captured via a hardware encoder card?  For instance, 720x480 MPEG2 at 29.97 fps with bitrate 6000 Kbps from a Hauppauge PVR-350?

One nice advantage of the PVR-350: it has video out as well as video in, and it includes a hardware video passthrough mode, with no delay that I can discern.  That solves the lag problem.

updated the first post.
AlphaStrategyGui des.com
And - even though I harp on about it - for those who want to record in PAL-60 with zero problems or head aches and want dvd-quality (but with zero lag), could do worse than buying one of these:

http://www.pluggedin.tv/site/sweetspot/specs/index.html

Not amazingly cheap, but then, the quality is exceptional and - most importantly - consistent. I'm not sure how much a decent PAL DVD Recorder goes for these days, but for those that are seriously considering direct capture, I genuinely urge you to at least take a look at it. Smiley
Strange days, incredible days
I forsee a bottleneck of VHS tapes coming in around the holidays.
Edit history:
nate: 2007-02-15 10:30:24 pm
meh. it'll get done.

i have this crap down to a science. Wink