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I'm an Olympic Straferunner
Haha, I agree that ISP is probably a confusing abbreviation. Anyone coming from outside this discussion down the line would likely get confused by that term, but I can't think of a good alternative off the top of my head. We could just call it the Infinite Potion Glitch or something like that.

I would love to see people run hard and expert and I've always wanted to route those. However I really, really want to get a good any% normal time first. The closest I've got to finishing a single segment run was a run that failed at Casing the Joint, and Soulforge also has a moderate probability to kill you. Stringing together a good single segment run that also uses the fastest and riskiest strats is my goal right now but if there was interest in those other categories I'd love to help out and route a few levels of that. I also want to put together a segmented money IL run (would that be a good idea?).
twitch.tv/oneginiii
Just gonna write a few things that came to my mind reading the recent posts.

To LotBlind, what I said about allowing Infinite Potioning in single-segment was just related to the save/load (at least for now) required for the trick, which would make it not a single-segment run. I'm not sure what you are saying about segmented though. Don't do RTA, because you can just do a segmented run? (probably not what you mean Tongue ). Also in general about categories, IMO in all kinds of speedrunnning you should be allowed to speedrun whatever you want (barring cheating/splicing of course). If someone genuinely wants to run say "low% no sprinting / crouching on expert" they should be allowed to without some other runners saying "nah, that category is dumb not a 'real' speedrun" or whatever Smiley . If someone is putting effort into running a category, it should be allowed on the leaderboards at least. I'm not going for any kind of records for now. I'll try to get sub 1 RTA, and if I do, I'll think about single-segment. I never really cared for records or submitting to SDA. I just enjoy streaming speedruns, because it's pretty much what I watch too on twitch for like 8 hours every day. Another thing: Thief II IMO has at least some RNG, considering that all npc roaming movement is RNG based, and can totally kill a run. It can be compensated/routed for in a lot of cases though.

For OOB/non-OOB. It's not a thing now, but one criteria could be whether you enter an area without room-brushes. These areas are pretty easily recognized, because no footstep sounds play in non room-brush areas, and the developers certainly didn't intend for you to reach any of these areas.

About Infinite Potioning, one thing that seems to make a big difference is which way your camera is facing. Even for my setup, the angle you face is very important for success. I tested various positions and angles in Soulforge and other maps, but so far haven't figured out any connections. After looking at the save files seems like they are simple state-saves, which means that they just save the current game engine state in full. I think this should mean that no values/flags in memory can change simply by saving or loading. Another thing I noticed about using speed potions that I haven't mentioned yet: When I was doing my initial testing in Soulforge using a second speed potion right as the first one ended. Sometimes when using the second speed potion it simply disappeared from my inventory without giving me any kind of speed boost. Not sure what to make of that behaviour though. I agree that so far it seems like there is something unique about Soulforge that makes the glitch possible. I haven't done any more testing, but I'll get back to it if I get some ideas.
Edit history:
jakeplissken: 2015-11-06 05:46:48 pm
I'm an Olympic Straferunner
I don't think there really is any RNG in Thief 2. Guard patrol routes are all scripted in the level design, and while alert enemies may seem to exhibit some level of RNG (like when they bump into things or block each other) they really only react to the player in a nonrandom way. You can manipulate enemies into using the same attack animation repeatedly, manipulate them into lunging forward, blocking, etc. and some of those are actually used in the run in some extreme circumstances. If you were to play the same level over and over again, and your inputs were exactly the same, the level would play out in exactly the same way. The only real RNG is which key you get on Eavesdropping, and that is determined from the moment the level loads. Now that is definitely an aspect of RNG that impacts your time, but the game isn't at the point where losing 30 seconds by getting east tower is a reset.

As far as categories go, I'm not against people running whatever category they want, but I am against the creation of arbitrary categories on leaderboards. If someone wants to post their Thief 2 Low% no blackjack no potions creeping only speedrun on youtube or whatever, go for it. But if that person starts demanding that their category be added to the leaderboards, it becomes pure pollution. There's a lot of things wrong with the mindset that these arbitrary categories legitimately deserve to be placed alongside any% or 100%. Most of these arbitrary categories involve putting some sort of limitation on the player with no legitimate reason for doing so. In addition, "that person" is usually the only one who runs, or would ever want to run that category.  That means that there is no competition and they can just rest on their laurels after they do one run and get a meaningless "world record" and never try to improve. Most of the runs in these miscellaneous categories are marshmallow runs that are many minutes or (in the case of some RPGs) hours longer than optimal. Making up a category to obtain some sort of record on a leaderboard is behavior that should be frowned upon, and records in general are meaningless unless there is competition. SDA in particular has been really good about this so far and has the best standards for verifying runs. Other boards however, and speedrun.com in particular, are awash with bad moderation and junk categories with marshmallow runs that only serve to clutter and dilute the accomplishments of runners who are putting in the hours resetting and competing for good times in genuinely interesting and challenging categories.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2015-11-07 01:38:29 pm
jake: segmented + IL is not a thing. Did you mean just ILs?

OneginIII: Yes, I meant that since the only real difference between SS and RTA is slightly more risky strategies (somewhere maybe) and ISP, it unnecessarily gets into territory a good thought-out segmented run will showcase anyway.

What you're missing is all this talk is in the context of which categories are acceptable for official SDA submissions. Yes do what you like outside of that, but if it's not even vaguely official you technically need to post it under "Casual Speedrunning". Well in this case we're all probably interested in seeing it anyway. I think not even speedrun.com is interested in fantasy categories because what's the point in having leaderboards then. Well maybe I'm wrong.

I don't think the guards move randomly at all, but in effect you will be slightly ahead or behind yourself, or perhaps you've alerted them at different times.

Forget about no-OOB, it's just not worth it (happens ONCE at current) and is comparatively vague. I can see you're new to SDA. SDA isn't trying to be mean or kill creativity, that stuff just belongs in a different area of the forums.

Way your camera is facing affects the number of polys loaded in, which further suggests there's a concurrency thing happening. Keep looking out for that. Is it when there's a lot of things in sight and never when you're facing a single wall?

"After looking at the save files" - you mean you've studied the memory or what? How did you conclude there can't be any effects from a s/l? It certainly resets NPC speech.

"Sometimes when using the second speed potion it simply disappeared" - that sounds like the exact opposite of the ISP in some sense: in the ISP something causes the game to skip over the event of the potion running out (with the associated sound), in your case something caused the game to skip the event of the second potion activating. If that also happens just on Soulforge, it's definitely a very similar cause. What someone could do is look at the map inside an editor and determine if it's close to maxing out polys and whatever else was limited for versions prior to NewDark. Maybe the map has all its AIs active from the very start? At least the mechs sent out to intercept you are active. Have you runners noticed anything different about the AI other than that?

jake: Why haven't you written in the guide about AI manipulations Tongue that sounds like useful stuff you know? I'm tired of being the only one actively taking the time to store my information. Also do you know on a code level about the Eavesdropping key RNG? Again stuff I wouldn't have minded knowing about. Are the turrets in the Bank also seeded based on frame count? I know we can't currently easily apply that information but just knowing you CAN'T do something (and why) is good.

EDIT: On Soulforge there's a spot where rocks will keep falling from a chute. If you block their way you can frob them and clutter the room with them. When there's enough, textures (and even NPCs) start disappearing.

Someone should test to see if this noticeably affects the likelihood of the ISP.
Edit history:
OneginIII: 2015-11-07 05:03:03 pm
twitch.tv/oneginiii
Ok, I think you guys are misunderstanding me. Sad

I don't know for a fact how the RNG in Thief II works, but one time I did the through the front door strat it Blackmail, and quicksaved after going around the walkway. On some quickloads the alerted guards opened the door right away, on some quickloads they didn't open it at all. I just assumed off of that that they just roam in random directions. Of course, theoretically all RNG can be manipulated, because no true randomness exists in computers, but at some point it becomes practically impossible Smiley . In older games the RNG algorithms are simpler, but in newer games they so complex, that they can't really be humanly manipulated (AFAIK in some cases not even identical inputs produce same RNG results). Not sure where Thief II stands on that scale though.

My point with the categories isn't to have some meaningless category just to get a "wr". I guess my exaggeration was a bit too much. At one point the 100% run for FF7 and FF8 was routed/ran by one guy, and they still accepted it on the leaderboards (and not even all accepted it as true 100%). IMO it's not an optimal run and has a lot of RNG, but still very interesting. I don't really see the problem with cluttering the speedrun.com leaderboard, at least for now. If someone does an interesting category of Thief II, I'm okay with it being on speedrun.com. All this isn't really a thing yet for Thief II, so we'll see what happens eventually.

About OOB: someone mentioned it and I just had an idea for a OOB/no-OOB criteria Sad
I'm not new to SDA per say, but I haven't used the forums much, never posted anything here (outside this thread). I used to watch runs on SDA and read a bit of the forum way back, but after SRL and streaming became a thing I haven't really used the site anymore. This is also why I don't really care about SDA submissions etc.

Looking at the save files: Just opened the file in a text editor and looked at what it contains. I'm no expert, but even ingame it seems pretty much like a full-state save system. Only thing that seems resets with save loading is the current progression of audio files like Karras talking in Soulforge, will just replay from the start.

Doesn't NewDark increase all the engines brush/object/ai limits way higher? If ISP was related to any of those, NewDark should prevent it from happening, but it doesn't. Also, I'm not sure how the LOD/culling (what polygons that are not on screen are rendered) system in Thief II works, but I remember getting ISP looking straight down at the floor, so I doubt it's polys on screen.
Ah, maybe their movement while in search mode is random, that could be true. If someone wanted to confirm that and add under "guards" in the guide, that'd be great... If you can reset their behaviour every time you s/l that could be useful for systematic manipulations.

If they were NOT in search mode when opening the door, it's more difficult to explain.

Our usage of the term OOB in Ambushed is just for convenience, it's not true OOB like in many other games.

Even though it's true that NewDark increased those limits, the particular way in which Soulforge is designed could somehow result in not enough CPU being given to the relevant tasks. Or maybe it's a logic error and has nothing to do with CPU? I believe nothing that's not on screen is rendered, if that's what you meant? You can climb on the rooftops in Ambushed in places you're not supposed to be and see polys vanish in a predictable way just as you'd expect. (The reason you can see it happening is there's a null texture for some high buildings that doesn't render at all but still counts for obscuring other polygons.)

So now we know it can happen without a s/l and without a high poly render count. But you never said how your line of sight affected it exactly. Where do you look then to make it happen?
Edit history:
OneginIII: 2015-11-17 05:37:17 pm
OneginIII: 2015-11-08 12:27:45 pm
OneginIII: 2015-11-08 12:26:44 pm
twitch.tv/oneginiii
I don't know exactly how your facing direction affects it. In my setup video on youtube
is the direction I face to get it. If you face a bit more to the right than in the video, it doesn't seem to work. I tried doing the usual qs/ql and then speed potioning while looking in different directions. Some directions worked, others didn't from standing in the same corner.

Another thing that seems strange to me is that I can only get it outside Soulforge. I haven't really come up with a good idea why though. I haven't done anymore testing recently. I don't really have any ideas for stuff to test either. At some point me or someone could do some testing and list all things that make it work/not work and put it in the wiki.
Can I ask you to use the hidden tag for videos? It keeps the thread tidy. You can still edit that in.

I just came back to the game for a little playaround. I only meant to test one specific idea I randomly had so I could edit it into the guide, but... One does not simply just test one specific idea when one returns to Thief II.  Anyway I can confirm the lean grab might well come in handy on Shipping because of all the crates. It enables a few jumps here and there otherwise undoable. I also found a weird weird kind of lifting effect if you open a bay door, close it again standing in its way, then crawling underneath it and either uncrouching or jumping. Try it :/ also it works even better with a slow-fall potion. I'm not sure how I do it but sometimes it only takes you halfway up. Maybe it's cause I was carrying a crate? If you get stuck, just hit the screenshot bind and you can see for yourself what I meant.

Also I just noticed accidentally that you can use objects to hit buttons! Did you guys know? This might be useful because their arcs are different from those of arrows and are constant without needing to time it. Mines fly kinda far don't they? Also there's no delay like with arrows, so you guys really need to start looking for opportunities.

Socrates: I forget - how far could you transgress the door when we tried that? As I recall you were able to use a rope arrow to get lodged inside it but did you get anything else? Were you able to look through the door at all? I realized that even if you can't get all the way through, you could still maybe fire arrows or throw stuff on the other side.

JESUS H.C. CHRIST GUYS!
I was trying to transgress this door:


I noticed I was getting the same "stuck boost" effect when the screen starts to twist because your legs and torso are getting further apart. Guess what happened when I jump/mantled a thing?

I was now over here:


I essentially teleported several meters away because (and this is how I believe it works) my upper half the hitbox was still caught inside the door while the legs had gotten through somehow. That's why I was able to walk around (I could hear my own footsteps all around the place) but my view was stuck around the door only being able to move a little ways much like normally happens when you're doing what I was doing.


I'm still looking at it now with some bemusement. I wish I had a scouting orb so I could see where the game thinks my player model is at. When I drop items they fall where my view is, but when I jump it's clearly the legs that are jumping. I notice I can't move around the corner down the corridor on the side where I'm stuck, but I might be able to go through a door guards are opening intermittently on the other side. I can also hear my own footsteps fading away the further I am from the upper half (with the ears) which I think accurately simulates how guards perceive those sounds as well. el - oh - el.

I'll mess about with it some more later and see how else it affects things, but I don't consider myself as officially back yet. I can't do lots right now.
Quote from LotBlind:
Also do you know on a code level about the Eavesdropping key RNG? Again stuff I wouldn't have minded knowing about.


The mission source code basically takes a random number (and RNG seed is based on system uptime in miliseconds):
Code (MISS6.SCR):
#define KEYPATHS 9

[...]

SetData("PathNumber",Data.RandInt(1,KEYPATHS)); //which key we're using.

[...]

SetupLocation(); //setup the location, if we are the starting
		 //point.  This allows all sorts of wholesome
		 //linky goodness.


There is also a game config cheat parameter to fix the key location to a specific one.
Hmm... Thanks for the info! So you seem to have looked into the T2 code before or did you just check that now? If you feel like it, we'd certainly be interested in hearing more about how stuff in this game works, especially for a few unresolved mysteries. Should I point you at something in specific?
I'm an Olympic Straferunner
Cool stuff guys. I had no idea that objects could hit buttons, although it makes sense intuitively since it works with arrows and such. This engine constantly impresses me with its depth. Looks like we'll have a few more things to add to the strategy guide. As far as the door transgression thing goes, I've seen people utilize it in ghost runs to get at loot without picking a lock or slashing a banner, but most of those involved using the jump key off of a rope arrow to get lodged in the door and then frobbing something from behind it. But those guys were sometimes quickloading and quicksaving for 4 or 5 minutes to get it right. I'll try and play around with it a bit on 1.23 and see if anything interesting happens, maybe stream or record some of it. From what I've experienced thus far it's highly dependent on the type of surface. For instance it happens to be much trickier on the tapestries inside of the smugglers' ship in Shipping and Receiving.

That's interesting stuff with the Eavesdropping code - and pretty much what we intuited after having plenty of philosophical moments while sitting through the dialogue. Shame that there's no real way to manipulate it. Getting the east tower is an instant 30 second time loss. West tower is not as bad but it still loses about 15 seconds of screwing around on the ladder. Also the only times I've ever failed on Eavesdropping were on East and West Towers and having the misfortune of the crossbow mechanist shooting you repeatedly as you attempt to climb those long ladders. Also if they shoot you as you're trying to jump off to get to the upper level, there's a chance you'll lose some of your jump momentum and just fall to your death. And the ladder is high enough that if you don't nail the jump, the fall is lethal anyway. Luckily we're not at the point yet where a 30 second time loss on Eavesdropping constitutes a reset.
I managed to get the same crazy boost off a half-closed crate lid. You can get angled boosts as well sometimes (off to left or right) and get more vertical distance the wider open the lid is. Drink a slow-fall before jumping/uncrouching for super height! I believe the boost is the same whether you jump or just uncrouch.

I see that you can actually get the same boost just by crouching and running into the corner between the lid and the crate. This gives a consistent y-direction boost (left or right). Using forwards crouch while aiming towards the side once gave me a sick sidewards boost that reminded me of the lean boost, but I could only get that one once. Hang on, the whole thing reminds me strongly of the lean boost :|. Maybe it IS the same effect, it's just that gates always have completely level bottom surfaces? But then why do gates have to be rising when you do the boost but slanted things don't? Hmm...

Combining a lean with the slant boost gives you big sidewards motion while doing it. I was almost able to get up on the raised walk in the inventor's shop by crouching, getting close to the bay door, leaning so the lean is stuck against the door (not so you pop through), then jumping while moving the camera so the lean (or unlean?) causes you to also drift far to the side.

EDIT: Holy Burrick! I made it up there o_O. I think I was able to control my movement direction when being transported across the ceiling just by moving my camera view! God, this game keeps on giving... Might be a bug in the way unleaning works?

You can also just generally get a sideways boost from using just the crouch-->lean to get stuck-->turn to "unstuck" the lean-->immediately jump to preserve momentum. Not too inconsistent not to apply into any% IMO if you casually open the door a little bit while e.g. robbing Capezza. Probably not worth doing just to save a little bit of time for a new record yet.

Got a SHAS from getting stuck on a crate/crate lid (slowly drifting down) then screenshotting. Smiley I also now have a save file that gives me the SHAS every time I reload Cheesy I can delay it for a bit if I rapid-tap jump.

You can go all the way around a ladder without detaching if there's room. I did not realize this.

Jake: Yes, transgressions seem highly dependent on the door or other place you're doing it at - I could never get a good clip completely through a tapestry on my old round of attempts, and, yes, it usually takes some effort to do the rope-transgression. Thanks if you record some reference material for it actually! It's nice to have all of it well-documented.
I'm an Olympic Straferunner
I'm putting together a playlist on my youtube channel of all the tricks used during the run, and some other interesting oddities of the dark engine that may prove useful. I'm hoping it can act as an archive or reference for newer runners or just for casual players who are unfamiliar with the engine.

It's live here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMcKVbbwxbCNun2Lei4Xy38Mdzpm219sa

I'll be working through the major tricks in the run first, and then moving on to more general dark-engine based stuff. All of my descriptions will include the exact procedure for replicating the trick, version differences, etc.
Jake: Hmm... As in how are you working? Are you taking everything that's in the guide and seeing if you can do it in NewDark? If you can't do something, could you let me know so I can check my description of how it's done so we can be sure? So far the biggest difference is in the mantle code not teleporting you back or sideways.

I know a whole bunch of other stuff aside from what I've mentioned but I've been holding them back (some of them are v. 1.07 specific minutiae) whenever they don't have conceivable speedrun applications. At the very end after finishing the final mission on my long and arduous snoop-through I will publish some kind of photo collage with a narrative, most likely. But getting at least all the speedrun-worthy tricks up from the guide is definitely not a bad idea and I'm glad someone will do that!

I see you're not of the school of thought where each demo is JUST a clean example of the trick without extras? Like I was wondering if you really needed to show the rest of the mission after using the arrow on Jeni's door. Also, I'm sorry to be negative (just constructive though!), but I noticed you've also got some factual inaccuracies and small omissions, sometimes just in the description so it can be edited. Would you like to go through all that stuff once again with me so I can fill in any details you might have missed? Smiley There's no escaping that at least the descriptions will probably have to be updated later with new knowledge gained.

We could have a Skype group for this game. I dunno why I never seem to have started one. That's the best place for this I think. If someone wants to join, add me (sviimhoinen).
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2015-11-23 12:24:10 pm
Sometimes the slant boost (gotta slate a name for it once it's understood a bit better) with the lean makes me bounce off walls at the sides of the door, or even straight backwards. There's clearly an identical effect to when you lean and when you unlean (might be able to do the gate boost from unleaning as well as leaning) so that would be why I'm flying backwards and forwards. Also I think the bounce just happens when I unlean and its direction might well have to do with what I do with my mouse which is why I felt I was controlling it during the hover.

Okay I found a very consistent type of sideways boost from a bay door like this:
- open it up so wide that you can pass between it and the wall on the side while standing but not so wide that you can't bump your head on it while jumping
- move towards it and jump, but right before jumping activate a lean that "points" in the direction you want to go
- you will get stuck on the door for a couple of seconds until you unlean at which point you're hurled to the side fast

If this works in NewDark (fingers crossed!) you could definitely apply this on Shipping even with the any% route. Maybe when exiting the gallery? Although I think there's another wall in the way :/ Gotta think outside the box guys, maybe there's a different route available now?
Quote from LotBlind:
Hmm... Thanks for the info! So you seem to have looked into the T2 code before or did you just check that now? If you feel like it, we'd certainly be interested in hearing more about how stuff in this game works, especially for a few unresolved mysteries. Should I point you at something in specific?

I can check some stuff out if it's not to complex. Just describe the situation that you want to figure out and I'll see what I can find.
I'm an Olympic Straferunner
Oh absolutely, I would love to get it to the point where every trick is solely a demo of the trick itself. I just dropped certain videos in there which seemed relevant, but I will soon get to making whole new demos of each trick showcasing only the content and execution to avoid confusion. At this point in time, I am pretty much only going to be doing NewDark content, because I think the most interesting differences show up in 1.07 and 1.18, and I've been unable to get either of those to run in a stable fashion yet on my setup. There's also a lot of interesting level-specific things that may have speedrun implications in Azal's Thief II Guide to the Strange and Unusual, which was the direct result of him spending a huge amount of time exploring the levels in meticulous detail.

I recorded a few more things today. The major stuff I need to cover are: Redoing the Running Interference videos, elevatoring, and breaking falls with frogbeasts/steel plates. I might cover ISP if I can get a good setup for it, but Onegin's video shows it off pretty well.

I think there is a Skype group already, although I've not yet gotten into the habit of checking it regularly since I rarely use Skype as it is. I do think it would be a good idea to organize something with all the major runners and try to see if we can come up with some new ideas. I certainly like the prospects of a new Shipping and Receiving route - the current one is pretty much just a lot of running. If my descriptions for the videos are off or incorrect, please let me know - I want to make sure everything is factually accurate. I'm only beginning to experiment with DromEd and level design, so a lot of the mechanics go over my head. Just send me a PM of things that need changing on Skype or Youtube or anywhere. Oh, and if there's anything that we specifically want to record, let me know and I'll add it to my to-do list.
WheretIB: There's the so called ISP, Infinite Speed Potion, which anyone has only been able to do on Soulforge. Here is the not-necessarily-all-up-to-date-thanks-to-lazy-people info on it from the guide:

    Infinite Speed Potion/ISP: This only seems to work on Soulforge. You can do one of various setups to get a speed potion's effect never to run out. It seems to involve drinking another potion after the first one has run out. Details are a little vague.
        Onegin III: I have a highlight for this: http://www.twitch.tv/oneginiii/v/23054145.

I did some testing and after trying it unsuccessfully a few time I decided to try using an another speed potion right as the old one ends. This worked and I got the glitch three more times. Highlight for that is here: http://www.twitch.tv/oneginiii/v/23055491. However after this I restarted the mission and tried again, but couldn't do it anymore. I did more testing for like an hour but did not get it again a single time.


We strongly suspect it's a concurrency glitch of some sort, so it might be difficult to detect even from the code itself, but if you could find what the code "says" about speed potions that might help us find the explanation. Alternatively what's so special about mission 15? We know it doesn't always involve more than one potion. Also when I say concurrency I don't mean it has to be done frame-perfect. Like Onegin wrote, it can be made to happen consistently with the right setup. Onegin, if you're reading this and you know anything more just chime in.

There's actually a lot more stuff but I'm sure that's enough for now!

Jake: Do you want your channel to be the repository for this stuff? Do you think it would be worth starting a new YT channel all devoted to T2 (and T1)? That way we'd be able to keep everything in the same place even if you eventually drop interest. Also if I for instance had access to the channel I could update the info on the tricks whenever necessary and we could split the channel management work.

We've done a kind of brainstorm with Socrates in the past, but it mostly just ends up being me literally dictating to him what he needs to try and where Cheesy He's not the brightest you know... :| Some kind of hangout would be cool of course but I don't think we can all see what each other are doing without paying for Skype. Streaming is a thing but stream delays are highly annoying when you can't go "right there, that spot right there" when you're referring to something happened 4 months ago on the runner's end. I suggest talking about it more in the Skype though. I'd very much like to Skype/chat with you just to make sure we're on the same page with most of the tricks so you know what to write in the descriptions and I know what's 1.23 compatible what isn't. Also there's a couple that we might have to rename or combine together. So yeah. I added the Skype invite link at the top of the main page of the guide if someone else wanted to join it.
Edit history:
WheretIB: 2015-11-26 05:25:58 am
I was afraid you were going to ask about ISP Smiley (Just kidding, I was afraid about figuring out SHAS)

Quote from LotBlind:
We strongly suspect it's a concurrency glitch of some sort, so it might be difficult to detect even from the code itself, but if you could find what the code "says" about speed potions that might help us find the explanation. Alternatively what's so special about mission 15? We know it doesn't always involve more than one potion. Also when I say concurrency I don't mean it has to be done frame-perfect. Like Onegin wrote, it can be made to happen consistently with the right setup. Onegin, if you're reading this and you know anything more just chime in.


Well, it's not a concurrency glitch, but a save-load glitch.

The way timed speed potions work:
- Activate effect: 'DrkInv.AddSpeedControl("Speedy", 1.75,1.25);' (Effects do not stack)
- Create a timer named 'PreEndPotion' after a duration of 7.6 seconds
- When 'PreEndPotion' triggers, play deactivation sound (optional) and create a new timer 'EndPotion' with a duration of 1 second
- When 'EndPotion' triggers, the effect is removed: 'DrkInv.RemoveSpeedControl("Speedy");'

A timer object is a numerical handle that is stored in 'PotionTimer' property of a SpeedPotion. When the last activated SpeedPotion ends, the 'PotionTimer' property is cleared.

If a potion is already activated, the current timer is removed and all steps described above are performed.

While it might not be the only way, but the way the glitch happens on Soulforge has to do with a certain TrigFlicker (FlickerTrigger) object that is only used on Soulforge.

Now it gets a bit complicated... I'm still figuring out the exact order of events, but basically, this object is incorrectly implemented - it also uses a timer and stores the handle in the properties. The issue is the way it removes the timer when it is no longer needed - it can remove the timer using a numeric handle more than once.

So, the infinite potion glitch happens when after a save/load sequence, the speed potion you activate receives the same handle ID as was used before the save by the FlickerTrigger object, and soon after load, this FlickerTrigger object removes the speed potion timer.

I'm going to figure out some extra details in a day or two and will edit this post or create a new one.

Edit: I think it may also be possible (with correct timing) to not only make and ISP, but to save/reload again and activate an invisibility potion over that
Edit history:
WheretIB: 2015-11-26 02:37:23 pm
WheretIB: 2015-11-26 02:35:20 pm
WheretIB: 2015-11-26 02:24:41 pm
WheretIB: 2015-11-26 01:04:06 pm
WheretIB: 2015-11-26 12:58:34 pm
Ok, so the timing for Soulforge ISP: after being spawned in the level, wait 16 seconds (no need to move anywhere, but moving outside is ok), save, load, use the potion.

Sadly, even though the Invisibility Potion is based on the same script as the Speed Potion, the invisibility is still being removed by someone else after some time.



Edit: if 16 seconds don't work for you, you can try 8.
Edit 2: The difficulty might also change the event order Sad The video above is performed on 'expert'
Edit 3: Works on 'normal' if you run outside and wait 24 seconds.

I would recommend running outside before the Security Camera switches on high alert, and testing save/load after 8/16/24/32 seconds to find what time works best for you.
twitch.tv/oneginiii
I did a bit of testing and seems like it really is all about the timing at the start. I played on normal, stood still for about 9 seconds and got it pretty consistently. Seems like my old "setup" just happens to take about 8-9 seconds to do Tongue
For me the timing window seems to be around 8-10 seconds from the start. A very easy way to time it is to listen to Karras' dialogue and when he says "So..." it's just at the right 9-second mark. Moving a bit forward from the starting position made it not work though, at least for the few tests I did.

Really cool to to read your explanation on it. I was trying to wrap my head around a logical explanation, but I guess sometimes it's just a simple oversight in the design/programming. The new way doesn't really save time though, maybe a bit over a second, but at least it looks cooler Smiley Also, I'd be interested to know where/how you are reading the code/script from, in DromEd or in some files?
Maybe it's a NewDark/Tafferpatcher expansion problem, but when I load the quicksave, there are some Scouting Orbs in the level that drop on the floor and create some extra timers that prevent me from getting the speed potion after 8 seconds Smiley

I think that moving inside wakes up some AIs, but It's hard to check.

Quote from OneginIII:
Also, I'd be interested to know where/how you are reading the code/script from, in DromEd or in some files?

There are source files for missions and the game floating around in the Internet. But it's some kind of unfinished Dreamcast port that you can't compile and run to debug, so you can only read it and try to figure it out Smiley
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2015-11-28 09:13:38 am
Ah... so speed potions only last 7.6 seconds + 1 seconds when its effect is waning right? So thinking it saves 9 seconds (of running on the ground) is slightly off. I'll make a note of that later.

Check out the second to last post in this old thread: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77555
Seems those who claim to have done it without s/l have certainly not been hallucinating. Also xmodule999 had a whole speedrun of Soulforge where he used the effect before any setup had been found for it (well who knows cause that guy never shared any of his info). But point is I didn't think he s/l'd to do it. I wonder if that gives you more clues? Looks like invis+speed can also cause it, so maybe it's true for other potions as well.

Will be back in a week or so.

ignore this, for my personal notes:

EDIT: WHOOPS, I missed a whole several posts.

We know version differences may well affect where stuff spawns/if they're hovering when they're loaded in, so no surprise it might be different on different versions and also different skill settings. Is there any reason to suspect it has something to do with anything other than scout orbs?

But wait, they drop on the floor AFTER loading? We know ropes unfurl again and doused torches go out again, but can objects also drop like that? I feel I might have seen that actually but never paid attention to it.
Quote from LotBlind:
Check out the second to last post in this old thread: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77555

I have doubts about doing this glitch without s/l - the only mentions of ISP I've seen have been from Soulforge level and I couldn't find a video of it without s/l (and xmodule999 speedruns of Soulforge on youtube that I've found don't use ISP)

Quote from LotBlind:
But wait, they drop on the floor AFTER loading? We know ropes unfurl again and doused torches go out again, but can objects also drop like that? I feel I might have seen that actually but never paid attention to it.

Sorry, that was my mistake. The scripts that are being called are named 'CamGrenade::BeginScript' and have nothing to do with dropping down.

I have checked around a bit, and found an '8 second' setup that works for me on every difficulty level.


The problem for me was that after save load, Scouting Orbs (CamGrenade) in the level created a timer that messed up the timer handle order for the glitch to occur, so I've made a workaround for that by saving and loading immediately after level start.

I have also checked why the glitch doesn't happen if you go inside the level. The 'Trigger Flicker' object area ends after the factory machinery in the entry room, so it is possible to move inwards, just not too far.

-Level starts
-Scouting Orbs create their 1 second timers (#2/#3)
-Game creates some internal timers (#4-#18)
-Game is saved
-Game is loaded (last active timer is #18)
-Scouting Orbs create their 1 second timers (#19/#20)
-1 second after load, Scouting Orb timers expire
-4 seconds after the level start, TrigFlicker creates a timer (#21)
-8 seconds after the level start, TrigFlicker destroys a timer (#21)
-Game is saved
-Game is loaded (last active timer is #18 since timers #19-#21 have either expired or were destroyed)
-Scouting Orbs create their 1 second timers (#19/#20)
-I drink a potion that creates a timer (#21!)
-12 seconds after the level start, TrigFlicker destroys a timer (#21) and creates a new one (#22)
Well I mean people might have been doing the trick accidentally where they had s/l:ed before. xmodule DID do an ISP run and it was up on YT but most of his videos are now gone so... I'm not 100% he didn't s/l but that's how I felt. Socrates, where exactly are you? Socrates had it a few times but it's possible he used the s/l too.

Thanks a bunch for figuring this shit out Tongue I'll take that summary you wrote and stick it in the guide later. Do you feel like studying another weird effect?

A little update on the old trick I dubbed Rope Arrow Glitch: if you also jump off the rope as it's happening you very very frequently get SHASed, but occasionally I've managed to get boosted instead. And the nice part is this doesn't seem to be nearly as particular about where you do it, which means you could get more utility out of your rope arrows. It seems if you jump when on your way down (as normally happens when bumping stuff), it keeps your momentum. Looks like the only thing normally preventing this is the rope's hit detection kicking in before you hit the ground. I presume the same will happen moving upwards.

Looks like it's still varying levels of easy to get the SHAS/boost this way depending on what you're rope glitching off.

I actually just got a lean boost off a ladder! Has anyone tried plain leaning into ladders? You have to be reasonably close to it and it doesn't always work. It still boosts you in the direction the [un]lean is going so in that sense it's similar to the slant boost, so might have to rebrand all this later... I got something similar off a turret now but very difficult to do.

Also I got a much bigger object boost (lean around an object's corner, jump, the unlean boosts you) when the object I boosted off was above the ground. A lock right next to one of the bay doors to be exact. In this case the lean kind of bumps you up on top of the object.