Username:
B
I
U
S
"
url
img
#
code
sup
sub
font
size
color
smiley
embarassed
thumbsup
happy
Huh?
Angry
Roll Eyes
Undecided
Lips Sealed
Kiss
Cry
Grin
Wink
Tongue
Shocked
Cheesy
Smiley
Sad
<- 1  -   of 22 ->
--
--
List results:
Search options:
Use \ before commas in usernames
You used the key word yourself there Morgo: that key combination is a cheat, therefore it's [obviously] not accepted for anything...

SDA rulings vs. community: these are two sides of the same coin. SDA rules are there to create a more uniform ground level agreement for how accepted and published speed runs have to work, but the community around individual games naturally has some say. It's pretty much the same with verification: we trust those who played the game to make the best decision. So yeah, we can't go absolutely wild with the ideas we get on this thread but at the same time we do get to (informedly) make up the rules for this "game" ourselves. There may be others who come in later and don't like the decisions we made so we need to be able to justify our choices. Generally that's done abiding by the rules of avoiding repetition and avoiding arbitrariness. For the latter reason I suggested using the end stat screen as a measuring stick.

It seems you're new to SDA? You should definitely read the rules page:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/lang/rules_en.html

GOG/Steam releases are considered official. They are sometimes the only (fully legal) way of obtaining a given game and getting it to run barring the likes of Amazon.

Yes, you can do whatever you like and post your videos in the thread, just don't expect it to pass SDA verification though. If the only reason you (as in 'someone') came to SDA was to get a run published, they probably weren't doing it for fun to begin with. The one major reason for deciding on common rules is to furnish competition.

So I don't really see any objections to making Thief 2 low% "all stats at the lowest possible value at end of mission, if someone makes them lower than you (by a simple sum calculation e.g. 2 less secrets even though you had 1 less KO), their run is eligible to replace yours even with a slower time". That's still ignoring version differences though... To me 1.18 seems the best choice, like I said anything later than that is probably not going to be acceptable by SDA so if we wanted to make this official (it gets more exposure that way as well as more chance for competition). I don't really know much about Chocolate Doom. Could ask the community about this too. If compatibility is a hopeless fight without further patches we could get a ruling that allows something that makes the game work (and then everyone has to use it if they wanna compete). I wouldn't know playing on my XP. In that case, we should, again, probably ask about it in tech support.

You're right in saying Thief 2 speed running is not too far in its run at least what comes to SDA. I'll wait to hear from Socrates and/or Dark, if he has interests in this, before posting anything anywhere.
Always move forward, never sleep.
I came to SDA expecting to submit/publish a run. Tongue Then again, I'm of the mindset that if I don't enjoy doing something, I won't, and I enjoy running this awesome game! Cheesy

As far as I know, Steam and GOG releases are patched to newdark, and if they took the time to update it for modern rigs running 7 or 8, they would have to apply the new newdark patches, as I have done.  For some reason, out of the "box" from Steam and GOG just won't run on my systems.  For some reason, even though I have 1.21 on my laptop and my desktop, I can't blow open the doors on First City Bank and Trust on my laptop. :/ That ruined my downtime on my vacation last year. Tongue I don't think there should be different categories per-say, but tagging the run with the version isn't a bad idea.  The only differences I can tell is that in only 1.07 you can shoot a fire arrow at the bank vault to open it without unlocking, and in other earlier versions, ladder climbing is a bit faster it seems.  So I see no reason that an IL table shouldn't have the bank mission on 1.07 with the best time if it was submitted.  This might be getting a bit convoluted though, and I think we're all on the same page when it comes to which versions are acceptable, which comes down to availability, and compatibility (I'm not going to scrounge around for a Windows 98 machine, and virtualization is crap for graphical compatibility).

TL;DR - These compatibility patches weren't created with the intention of breaking the game, but to make them able to run on newer machines along with some bug fixes that I'm personally OK with.  Steam/GOG should update their installs with 1.21, in my opinion.

The only thing I think wouldn't work might be some of the graphical improvement mods.  I've seen some videos with them included, but what I always thought of was that the potions look different, being wider vials (in some cases).  There are 2 things that I can think of when it comes to this if the models are bigger.
1) It's possible to stack potions and jump on them to gain a height boost - if the models are bigger, then the height increases.  I haven't found anywhere to use this method, but there might be somewhere out there it can be abused.
2) Picking up potions becomes easier if they're bigger. (speed potion in Ambush!)
If other loot is also changed with different models, then the pick ups could be affected either by being easier or more difficult to grab.  Most cases wouldn't be seen as a problem, though.  If they're just texture mods, then A-OK by me. Tongue

I'm seeing that defining Low% is a bit more difficult than just no purchases, and no unneeded pickups (I thought that was a GREAT idea! :P).  I still think that it should be done without purchases and unneeded pickups, because they aren't necessary to progress through the mission.  While these aren't tracked by the game itself, we (should) know what we start with in each mission, and what items are picked up throughout to use in various ways to complete the mission.  There will be some essential lock picking on some missions (Party and Sabotage come to mind), and could be some necessary picking of pockets/knockouts/killings. 

In the case of killing/knocking someone out to get a needed item from their belt, either method could be used, and the faster should be chosen.  An example would be on Blackmail, where it's much faster to kill the guard with the gear to the second floor instead of waiting for him to pass.  The gear is obtained, and there is either a kill marked, or a pocket picked marked.  The same goes for the key to Karras' office on Life of the Party that the mechanist mage has.  They key needed to get into the room with the scripture (and that mother fucker golden boy) on Party I believe is the only way in if you don't catch the guard exiting the room and shoving the door back open.  I can agree with no secrets, as they are only necessary on Casing and Masks.  Well, maybe not on Masks, as I think from the outside a rope arrow can be shot and you can climb up to the third floor.

TL;DR - My opinion on Low% being:
1) No purchases
2) No unneeded pickups
3) No unnecessary pockets picked
4) No secrets except for Casing the Joint
5) Exact loot amount
6) Pick locks only if needed - if there is another route/method of entry, use it instead

I'd like to hear thoughts on the killing/KO/pickpocketing for those items needed.  I'm for, "get it via the fastest method," since each will leave a tick on the scorecard.

WALL OF TEXT YAY!
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-04-01 03:36:51 pm
BIGGER WALL OF TEXT HOORAY!

The potion models may have been made bigger without changing their hitboxes. Did you test that? Anyway, I'm not quite sure how SDA is on texture mods. It just says this in the rules: "Editing config files and console commands for PC games beyond the scope of the ingame settings are only allowed for purely cosmetic changes that grant no gameplay advantages." I recall that Portal run with custom portal gun textures so I think texture packs are probably okay (what if they make the game run faster??).

I have an idea though: we could have two potential version subcategories for each category. "Latest universally stable release" and "any legacy version whatsoever". The former could change as time goes by. What happens, though, if there's a new patch that turns the old newest patch run into "legacy" but it doesn't compare favourably to the previous "legacy" run? I think we really really just need to post about this under SDA discussion. Could you do that Socrates maybe? Reason being you know more about those patched versions and compatibility than I do.

Low%: " I still think that it should be done without -- unneeded pickups, because they aren't necessary to progress through the mission." It isn't necessary to turn left to finish any of the missions Smiley You see this will always run into the question of "who decided that?" and the only solution, as per usual, is to take something that was already there in the game to begin with. That's the only way to "win" this argument, to have something to point at. It's not even as simple as you make it sound to define what's necessary to pick up and what isn't. If someone later finds a glitch that allows to skip that thing after all the old run gets obsoleted once again. Of course that's exactly what happens with what I proposed too but still I can't see a better solution. Actually the most important argument against this is it kills your creative thinking. So you couldn't even stack crates because it costs you too many "%" compared to doing it the boring way around? Or do we need to make an exception with crates? What other exceptions would we end up needing?

Speaking of lock picking and pickpocketing, seems sometimes the two are mutually exclusive, as in you'd get one "%" more for doing either but it enables to skip the other, except if it's a key you can use again somewhere else. And you also have the choice between knocking the key-bearer out, straight-on killing them, or pickpocketing the key because I don't think it gives you the pickpocket when you collect it off a body. Strategic choices. Lateral thinking. Wink Ha! Looks like you already realized that too. Yeah, even if it's faster to pick all the locks individually rather than get the key, in this category you'd just have to get the key to get less "%".

Knowing what the runner started with in each mission can depend on versions. Of course you can always see the starting screen (or we can request for it to be always shown) to make this a lot easier. Still it's the easiest for verifying if we go by stat screen alone. I don't know what to make of this table of existing low% definitions. https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Low_%25_definitions Is all of that stuff always tracked by the game? I don't know. Maybe it's just important that it's possible and easy to tell anyhow. It's not like you can secretly pick up or use an item in this game.

You can do that on Masks (getting up with a rope arrow)? That's the first example of why this category is awesome.

Okay, here's what I think Low% should be:
1) No purchases
2) Every pocket picked, lock picked, back stab, knock out, kill, body discovered or secret found counts as 1"%". There's no need for "no secrets found" because that's virtually forced anyway but I'd really like to see if anyone can actually work a secret into their route making it lower % or faster with the same %. I don't know if we can justify (not only to each other but also all future runners) why lock picking should be singled out either.
3) Casing actually works like any other mission in this respect, it's just everyone will have at least 7% on Expert and 1% on Normal. That is you can go over that number of secrets if it somehow helps avoid other "%" elsewhere, though I am doubtful of this.
4) Exact loot amount - otherwise it can't be accepted. I can't foresee any level not having the exact needed combination especially on Normal.
5) Even though this category is more about routing, execution still needs to be on acceptable levels with respect to run length.
6) You can use any items found inside the mission because this is more incense for creativity and probably this increases variety further by virtue of getting to use items that in any% routes are too far out of the way.

Now, strictly speaking, the game also tracks these:
Damage dealt and taken, healing taken.
I argue that it's less arbitrary to account for these as well. Also, if you need to avoid taking and dealing any extra damage, it forces more creative solutions to things like "how do I drop off from here without taking damage? Could I land in that pool?". It would more or less rule out violence. Then again that would place an emphasis on the thiefsy side of Thief. Surely it's more fun and challenging if you need to be both fast and quiet? Maybe moss arrows and noisemakers become more prominent as a result?

However, it wasn't originally clear how to compare each of these statistics one with the other. The most obvious way and therefore least arbitrary is just everything counts for 1"%" as with those previous ones. I'm thinking if this was about to threaten making the whole category incredibly painful we could apply a factor to these last three, e.g. every point of health lost is worth 0.5% or 0.1%. However, I still think it's better if we (recognizing I'm not currently talking as much about myself though I'm still eager to find tricks and routes as you know) adapt to the game and category rather than the other way around. Again, this creates a) more variety from the other categories and b) calls for more creative solutions. You're rewarded for being clever perhaps more so than with more straightforwards games and run categories.

One more thing that crossed my mind: if we allowed loot totals to exceed the minimum but with some penalty applied of course, it could potentially make routing even more complicated but the downside that I don't necessarily wanna accept is we'd need another multiplier for it. So I vote no on that. There's gotta be enough complexity as it stands.

One more one-more-thing: I watched your Casing run and realized you're already at almost the lowest % with that one! Only need to avoid the secret passages. Oh well, maybe there won't be too much overlap like that, what do you think?

P.S. How about optional goals? I think there's a couple here and there, at least there's one on Casing. I'd say by the spirit of low% you can't do those even if it suits your route and benefits you otherwise.

TL;DR
aww...

Quote from SocratesJohnson:
and that mother fucker golden boy


XD
Always move forward, never sleep.
Quote from LotBlind:
1) No purchases
2) Every pocket picked, lock picked, back stab, knock out, kill, body discovered or secret found counts as 1"%". There's no need for "no secrets found" because that's virtually forced anyway but I'd really like to see if anyone can actually work a secret into their route making it lower % or faster with the same %. I don't know if we can justify (not only to each other but also all future runners) why lock picking should be singled out either.
3) Casing actually works like any other mission in this respect, it's just everyone will have at least 7% on Expert and 1% on Normal. That is you can go over that number of secrets if it somehow helps avoid other "%" elsewhere, though I am doubtful of this.
4) Exact loot amount - otherwise it can't be accepted. I can't foresee any level not having the exact needed combination especially on Normal.
5) Even though this category is more about routing, execution still needs to be on acceptable levels with respect to run length.
6) You can use any items found inside the mission because this is more incense for creativity and probably this increases variety further by virtue of getting to use items that in any% routes are too far out of the way.


I like the sound of that.  I don't think health management should be included in any category, especially since it's hard enough to get through the game without dying/royally screwing up the run, let alone not getting hit/taking fall damage.  I agree though that safer routes should always be considered, especially on some of the more intense missions (Sabotage comes to mind).

Speaking of Casing the Joint and noisemaker arrows, and avoiding secrets, I present the following:

Casing the Joint:



Description:
Tweaked the route a bit to shave some seconds off.  First screw up is missing the switch to turn off the canon, and the second would be when I run past the door to the entryway with my lockpick out.  I'll have to try opening the door before going to the clock to avoid that situation again.

I thought to see if I could go straight to the clock instead of going through the library, and turns out I can.  The noisemaker arrow is necessary to turn the guard around, and as long as I hit the speed potion and stay on the carpet, I should be good.

Since it takes so little time to pick the lock on the exit, and that the guard down there is distracted by the noisemaker and hopefully looking away, it's a bit faster that shooting the arrow, jumping to it (which can go wrong) and breaking the window.


I'll have to look for alternate entrances that aren't secrets; not sure if there is a guard by the door, but a noisemaker should take care of that if there is.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-04-02 02:20:00 pm
^ I'm really happy with the speed potion bit Cheesy

Okay, well my arguments for keeping track of health as well were laid out before, but here's some further convincing. If it's ILs, I don't think no health lost should be such an issue in most maps. Your present runs for e.g. Framed, that one for Casing (the fall damage could have been avoided), Eavesdropping have virtually no health lost don't they? You're thinking of Soulforge aren't you? Well it'll be all the more impressive + I bet there's ways to make it a lot safer than you've been doing so far. I'd like to compare it to Doom2 Nightmare difficulty runs if you know what those are about. The runs often feature plain old camping and waiting to be able to make it through intact but they're still super impressive to see! They're still speed runs, as fast as anyone has managed it!

I looked, as another example, at your recent improvement run on Blackmail: again, I think the most difficult to avoid damage is just the arrows but you could have taken a different route round the right from the dining room and maybe sniped distracted Smiley some of the guards later to get around that. I just don't know why you're thinking it's so tough. Sure your time won't be quite as low. It may be different in SS though, it might be very tough to keep it at zero for the entire campaign but again that's only the equivalent of Doom SS runs, what they call "marathon" demos. I really think it's not a decision to be made off-hand that THIS is the challenge that cannot be met. In the mean time, like you've been doing so far, if you wanted to do some of these low% runs, you'd find sequential improvements and less and less damage before you hit that zero mark sometime in the distant future. It's the journey man, the journey!

Also, who's this guy? https://www.youtube.com/user/PTroubadour/videos
Always move forward, never sleep.
Maybe no damage should be a separate thing that can be added to all %s?  I agree that ILs would be much easier to do than a full single segment run, and could add different routing to each level, but I'd rather it not be tied to any particular category.  I'm sure the challenge can be met; I just don't want to do it (right now, at least :P).

I think I might take a stab at the low% to see what kind of crap I can get into.

Interference: No KOs/Same
Shipping: Loot route change (secret gem behind tapestry - exact loot)
Framed: Big route change by not having scout orb or slowfall potion
Ambush!: No KOs/Same
Eavesdropping: Loot route changes - also depending on key location - can't kill wandering guard
Bank: No health potion purchases (safer drops and dodging) - no kills
Blackmail: Kill/pick pocket/KO gear guard - Same
Tracing: No speed potion purchases/KOs
Blood: Only 1 speed potion - can still do the slowfall jump
Party: No speed potion from the secret in Angelwatch - No fire arrow from the secret in the astronomer's home - loot change
Cargo: No buying speed potion or fire arrow
Kidnap: Not having an extra fire arrow
Casing: New route to gain entrance
Masks: New route to gain entrance - new loot route (secrets in the study/exact loot)
Sabotage: No speed potions - having to pick an extra lock - no KOs/killings - one less frogbeast egg
Always move forward, never sleep.
Well, it looks like low% Casing the Joint is faster than the route I was taking.  The only problem is that it's not very consistent at the end, but then again, that could be said anyway. Tongue I haven't tried entering that way with Masks yet.

Casing the Joint:



Description:

So with the discussion of Low% going on at https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/thief_2_the_metal_age_verifiers_needed_223.html I thought I'd take a stab at a level that was pretty much already there.  Turns out, the route I devised is much faster than my previous any% route I uploaded yesterday, so this is my new any/low% route.

The inspiration came from trying to avoid secrets, and the first one was used to gain entry to the building.  The lock on the door behind the guard around the corner takes too long to pick, and I realized that I only needed to find the secret passage from the second to third floor and get out, and that the cuckoo wasn't needed at all.

Making a little mistake in the beginning of the mission doesn't do much harm, as I have to wait for the camera to face away from me before I can enter the building, and if I go too fast, it's looking right at me and I have to wait.  I was thinking of using the speed potion while on the rafters, but didn't work it in yet since I tried it with a different (slower) route while trying to figure out how to get that guard to not notice me, and didn't try it on this attempt.  It might be faster, since I still have speed to spare when I get to the window.  I'll have to give it a shot later.

I think dousing the torch and running past is the best method, and I need to be sure I stay on the carpet, or the mission is over when that guard hears me step on the tile. 

Another problem comes with the exit.  While I can technically break the window and jump out and onto the street below and survive, the noise must be way too loud and the mission fails, even though I got an, "Objective Complete."  Luckily I can mantle onto the ledge, where it's also completely dark, and step just outside enough for the mission to finish.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-04-03 11:31:18 am
Does it count as damage dealt if you disable bots or destroy watchers? Or force doors open? Or blow up frogbeasts?

If you couldn't take damage, that might change more routes up? Looks like a lot of them are still going to look pretty similar. Admittedly Interference isn't the first level to be affected by any/all category shifts but in Ambush you'd have to hop back across the gap from the apartment or some such thing. Even if you don't think you wanna do the kind of low% I'm promoting here you can still upload videos that otherwise fit the description? Just can't submit just yet? It's a question of managing the number of categories as well and making sure they all have their identity. Like I've been saying, if someone came along later and said "why is everything else but that part of the definition" the definition might have to be changed retroactively... we have to adapt to the game/challenge, not the other way around... But yeah whatever routing you manage to do now, if you're doing it, will probably be useful later on.

LMAO with your new Casing stuff! Next you'll find out it's actually faster to enter through the well in Framed. You could've just jumped out the window at the end with all that health... holy cow I just realized you didn't take damage either! What did I tell ya? What - did - I - tell ya?

Do you have time to soften a fall with a moss arrow after you've already dropped off (which would be faster ofc)? How much does that increase the height of fall that inflicts no damage, or does it?
Always move forward, never sleep.
Forcing doors open?  I don't think so.  Frogbeasts and bots?  Probably - I'll have to check.  I'll also check if killing enemies/mechanical beasts with frogbeasts counts as damage dealt.

Not taking damage at all will definitely change up the routes.  There are some that might not change, but there are those that will either take whole new routes completely, or just take a lot more waiting for enemies/other stuff.  Ambush I could run down the stairs in Garrett's flat and out the window to the scaffolding - seems easier than jumping back across since the ledge is so small on that window sill, especially after crawling through.  My initial thoughts, at least. Tongue

I could probably try to give a few missions a shot at no damage, but I think I might shift my focus more on Expert any% and learn that in tandem with Morgo. 

Casing the Joint just happened to coincide with not taking damage. Cheesy I'm not sure if I could whip out the moss arrows and shoot fast enough if I jump out of the window, though.  It sounds like I'd need really good reflexes, and it might be cutting it really close with getting the shot off.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-04-08 04:52:26 pm
LotBlind: 2014-04-08 03:35:08 pm
If it counts as causing damage exploding frogbeasts, I have this crazy idea that you could lure an NPC next to the door first and cause the beasts to blow up that way.

I'm pretty sure you don't actually have time to do the moss arrow trick in most places or otherwise the drop will deal lots of damage anyway but it's something to think about for damage avoidance.

Yeah doing Expert while Morgo is doing it (is he?) sounds like a good plan.

EDIT:
Ok. Did you know you can elevator even before the orb has stopped moving? It might be slightly more economic but perhaps also less consistent? Just jump like crazy like you'd normally do.
-Have you been testing all the possible places where you could use slow-fall potions to get higher? You can get on top of any of the perimeter walls (the ones you elevator up normally) with a slow-fall jump. Ofc sadly you've only got one in that mission. Keep an eye out for this stuff!
-Did you also just mess around with the dancing zombies? Lolz can be had with them!
-You can also just fire arrows through the front gate that's being controlled by the two watchers if you lean forwards. Could there be any other spots in the game where this is possible? It's probably only because it's semi-OOB to be there.
-I also found out turrets can't immediately tell where you are if they can't hear you or see you. If they're already tracking you and you quaff and invisi potion they can't track you based on sound. I guess this is common knowledge.

Okay, here's something you might actually be happy to find out! I managed to get on top of the Shoalsgate front gate by combining: 4 healing potions, 2 invisibility potions (stack those), preparing to elevator with an orb AND quaffing a slow-fall first. Smiley That's a lot of resources spent that are hard to recover [although looks like you can grab some of it back leaning through the gate] and I can't imagine the time gain is much + obviously this only works in certain categories due to not being able to afford all of it and less starting gear on Expert. Still you should test that for something. It's non-trivial to get in position without alerting the turrets so an invisi might be expended on that alone. Maybe it's still doable...

EDIT: same without slow-fall can be done also.
EDIT: and without one of the invisis. It helps to do the elevatoring slowly instead of trying to get all the height in a rapid dash.

Having too much fun on Framed XD
Always move forward, never sleep.
With the frogbeast blowing up thing, at least for Masks and Casing, there's a guard sitting right in front of the back doors to the house that frogbeasts can be used to open.  I think it takes at least 2 to blow open the doors, and on Masks, you start with only 5.  I used to use 2 of them to open the door to the study, but started using 3 so if I missed with the broadhead, I'd have a better chance to hit one.  So if I can go back to using just 2 on the study door, then using only 1 and a fire arrow to get the cultivator should work in that regard to eschew a secret on Masks.  Then again, there is that secret room in the bedroom area with loot that would need to be rerouted.

Dammit, I'm getting different ideas for that whole area on Masks and frogbeasts for any% now. Tongue 2 to open the first door, grab the fire arrow, use two to exit the bedroom, and then the last one with the fire arrow for the cultivator could save some time.  I'll have to test it out. Tongue

The moss arrows shouldn't let you avoid damage, just take the noise away.  That's what I think is killing it for me when I jump out of the window on Casing - too noisy with the window, and too noisy with the fall and grunt right after the window breaking.  I can get the arrow up as I'm falling, but there isn't enough time to draw it back far enough to loose it even at it's weakest. Sad

-I did know that it's possible to elevator before the orb stopped moving, but it still needs to come to a stop on your head first, or when you jump, it will bounce off completely, or back up and wasted a bit of time.  It's best when the orb doesn't rotate after it lands, though.
-I have not gone as far as testing other places for the slowfall potion yet, just because walking is still slow until it wears off.  What I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to know is how to get the speed potion bug!  It's only happened to me once, accidentally on Sabotage, when I was just trying things out.  I can't remember what I did, but no amount of trying has yet replicated it.
-Those zombies are awesome.  Jump down and dance with them haha.

Have you tried climbing on the turrets and trying to slowfall jump up to the top of the gate, or is it too high?  I'll have to try that when I get home.  Probably have to burn an invisibility potion to avoid getting shot, but only 1 is needed in the level anyway.
Always move forward, never sleep.
I swear I was recording, the light on my thing was green, but it didn't capture any of the shit I just did. :/

Framed:

Running up to the gate, using an invisibility potion, and then using a slowfall potion to jump up to it and mantle on top works!  Stand on one of the "railings" that the turrets are on, and jump towards the lamp.  It will take some more practice to get consistent, but I was able to catch the edge of the lamp and mantle onto the gate.  In total, this got me about a 1:4X (can't remember the exact time, but it was faster, that's for sure).

Masks:

I got a 3:15 with the new strats I mentioned.  Using only 2, well placed frogbeasts, I could open the door to the study, where I grabbed the fire arrow, and opened the secret (not technically a secret) room under the bed.  Instead of taking the secret (actually a secret) passage between the rooms, I blew the door open with 2 more frogbeasts, and looted the place.  Using just the fire arrow and the last frogbeast on the door to the cultivator worked as well.  It's tricky to get the doors to blow open with only 2, but I think it works best to try one of the sides, instead of the middle.

Good find on Framed!  I don't know if that would have ever occurred to me on my own.  I'll record sometime later and show them off here.

Otherwise, I was able to reduce my best time on Life of the Party, and did a money run on Cargo.

Life of the Party


Precious Cargo
Always move forward, never sleep.
Masks
http://www.twitch.tv/velicanles/c/4041801

The feed for Framed was shitty, so I'll just re-record it later.
Well, you're doing the one thing you always need to do if you're hunting for a bug: streaming and recording. (speed potion bug)

Did you already see this thread: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77555
It's suggested saving/loading at the exact time when it's about to wear out might be what's causing it. I was going to suggest the same actually, glitches like that often occur when the game has to process two things at once or when saving.

Framed: HA! That's even better then. Still the stacking method might be called for somewhere else. What you probably should be doing (and I will as well) is always keep at least 2 orbs and a slow-fall potion and a speed potion in your inventory as you're roaming around the maps.

Life of the Party: Is there a way to jump across from the first rooftop area that you land on after hopping off the platform with the tower entrance hatch to the area you normally climb up then drop off then go right to get to? With that speed potion maybe? Is it just an abyss right there?

Cargo: I swear that's a strat I suggested with opening the door with fire arrows! I guess you just couldn't afford them in a non-money run.

Could you technically crouch down into the water as you're swimming in the big pool and use a slow-fall potion to get the buoyancy effect and maybe avoid having to mantle when emerging onto the ground?
Always move forward, never sleep.
I've seen a thread about the speed potion bug, and video from Xmodule999 with it, but he also stated it's been a 1 time thing.  I'll try quick-saving and loading and see if that helps.

Life of the Party: What? Tongue

Cargo: Which door?  The freezer door?  There are always 2 fire arrows at the beginning of the mission that I can pick up, otherwise, I don't know of any other door to blow open.

Unfortunately, there isn't a slowfall to purchase or find between the start and that area.  Even if I did have one, I think it would only be used for style, since I'd still have to wait for the big blue mech to walk by.
Life: haha. So when you're leaving the tower via the hatch, if you stop and look outwards towards the brick rooftops that you climb next, if you peek out towards the right before the ladder, what's down there? Is there a jump you could be making over to the other rooftop? Just a random thought cause I couldn't see that in the video.
Cargo: okay, you probably were already doing that then. My bad, so to speak.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-04-14 12:53:26 pm
I added low% and 100% definitions in the guide. Is there anything you guys disagree on? It's mostly based on our previous discussions. What statistics the game tracks depends slightly on your version, meaning in 1.07 I don't think it tracks knockouts while airborne or iron beasts destroyed/disabled. So I'm thinking for the low% everyone has to run 1.18? And how about 100%? That would cut down some categories. Any% would be whichever version you prefer.

Had a long day so I'm not sure if I'm thinking straight here.

If you get bored of just running feel free to take a look at the tricks page to add in anything that's missing or correct anything that's not accurate.
Always move forward, never sleep.
I still don't agree with health management being part of any category.  If there are any games that do this currently (I don't know of any off hand), then I could reconsider my stance, but I'm thinking that just because the game keeps track of how much damage you've taken, doesn't mean it's needed in keeping track of "percentages."  An example would be that 100% doesn't seem to matter how much damage is taken, so in order to be absolutely 100%, wouldn't it be necessary to end each mission with only 1 health after using all available health restoration methods?  I can definitely see no health lost as being an additional challenge to add on, but I don't think it belongs in the standard description of the categories.

I believe I saw that airborne knockouts are tracked at least in 1.21, and I think I remember seeing the same for iron beasts destroyed/disabled, though.

I will definitely have to take a look at the tricks page; I haven't felt up to running more than just an IL every once in a while (work wearing me down).  I need to find the time for some more full runs with the new strats in place.

Speaking of new strats, here's what I was able to do on Framed with your findings!  I think if I get a good luck alarm, the time could be taken down to about 1:46, but it's random, and 1:50 has been my best so far.

Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-04-22 02:34:42 pm
Yeah the newer versions should all track that stuff so... should the ruling be no versions earlier than 1.18 allowed for low% reasoning being mostly that we can't ever be quite sure if a mine e.g. destroyed a bot or not? Seeing as the 100% tracks only the three values that actually have a max value (which is the whole logic with being able to get more things at the minimum percentage for low%) and all of those are included in 1.07 of course so therefore that version doesn't really need to be banned for 100%. All in all I wonder if anyone will actually ever do 1.07 runs anymore.

So yeah, what I just said is the first reason why 100% definitions are like they are and the second would be that even if there was a known max value for everything (I argue there's a difference between the stat screen and ANYTHING that happens during the run itself) that typically produces a ridiculously long and humdrum run that no-one wants to even hear about Smiley So we kind of just fall back on everything else I've said before about this. However, being at least currently a non-runner myself, I don't think I can endlessly stand on the way of what the actual runners want. I wish we could have heard some second and third opinions on this though. Do you mind if I ask the larger community about how they'd approach something like this? At the very basic level though the reason why I proposed my definition was to create maximum variety which further justifies the category and because I genuinely thought it was a fun idea! You've already had a run that's simultaneously low% and any% so this is why we'd need all the divergence we can get. It would, as you realized, not be justified in most games because not every game tracks damage taken or dealt. In this case it's up to us, the game community.

Yeah and come to think of it the greater community is only going to repeat the same things I've already said about the game tracking statistics and making the decision amongst the runners exactly as we're doing here. There's no SDA reason why it should go this way or that way in this case. Just remember that you're not arguing against me here, you're arguing against the game. There is no other logic that can be followed if you want your definition to stand of solid ground.

Speaking of games that track health, I'm thinking of Iji. There hasn't been a low% for that yet so I don't think that's been defined yet but what the game tracks is kills, cracks, damage taken and failed cracking attempts. Don't know what that means then.

So should we just ask the community after all? I can't think of anything more to say on this topic.

Yeah thanks if you could browse through the tricks, you might well have updated info for some of them or something that was missed earlier.

Good stuff on Framed, looks like a pretty solid run! How does the alert affect your running? Is it doors being left open for you? I'm going to keep doing my snoop-around when the time ripens up again. Meanwhile I trust you're already writing up your overflowing, yet unaffected, expressions of gratitude towards LotBlind the Almighty Emperor of Most of the Known Universe for whenever you might eventually be submitting those ILs? No I'm not developing a complex here.

EDIT: And yes, you're right, my idea of low% is more a challenge-oriented category than speed like I've been saying. It's just a question of whether we also wanted to make it the official one or not.
Always move forward, never sleep.
I don't think the version matters all that much if it doesn't keep track of iron beasts killed, since we'll most likely be able to see whether or not that happened while watching the run itself.  For instance, on Bank, I like to drop off all my mines to try to kill that iron beast at the beginning, but it's easy to see whether I did or not on the way back, and in low%, there shouldn't even be an attempt at it.  I still haven't checked whether or not damage done by frogbeasts counts as damage done by Garrett, though.  I/we'll have to look into that, since there are a lot of frogbeasts just hanging out at by the end of Sabotage, and one of the iron beasts at the beginning/end of the level can sometimes be destroyed by either the frogbeast blowing it up, or it being too close and blowing itself up.

Yeah, I would like to hear more opinions on the category as well, but it's been just us replying in the thread lately. Smiley I don't have a problem opening the discussion to the rest of the SDA community, though.

As for Framed, the alarm can either screw stuff up, not mess with anything, or be a benefit; it all depends on what the guard and mechanist do at the end.  The ideal scenario would be for the mechanist to run through the door and stay out of the way, with the guard going through the door again, leaving it open, and being out of the way so time isn't spent opening the door since it swings towards Garrett.  Sometimes, though, the mechanist and/or guard are blocking the door, or the door is closed and the guard is just in that little room, causing no normal loss.  I'm not sure if it matters when the alarm is set off, though, but it mostly happens after I'm leaving the evidence locker, going down the stairs.
no problem with including the greater sda community on this discussion Smiley but i have to agree with socrates. i dont think that the version would/should matter much. it all comes down to what information we extract from the stats screen.

as to the actual low% being challenge orientated: there is no problem with a little challenge Smiley i don't know whether we should make this the "official" i would leave it open as of now. since i'm not considering to run this category i don't want to talk you into or out of something Smiley
versions vs. low%: well, it's not terribly scientific to say "most likely be able to tell"... But I can envision cases where it's going to be ambiguous: there's no reason why you couldn't throw a few mines around as distractions (it's faster than firing an arrow after all) if you so chose to do, and say it was in an area you'll never return, how can you tell if a bot wandered into them or not? The same bot could otherwise have been patrolling a different area later blocking the way or some such scenario. Also knockouts while airborne will be a pain to verify don't you agree! It would be a simple matter to guarantee an even playing ground now and forever on by just banning 1.07 for low%.

I think damage dealt by frogbeasts doesn't count towards Garrett's total BUT damage dealt TO them (shooting them) does. That's how I recollect it. What you're saying about the frogbeasts on Sabotage seems like a pretty significant example of why 1.07 is so problematic. What if the bot got destroyed in the corridor you don't really peer into? And we can't rely on such cues anyway! We absolutely can't!

So Morgo: you realize 1.07 doesn't have the same info in the mission end stats as the later versions? That's why I'm questioning it.

Okay, I'll create a thread under SDA Discussion and let's hear if anyone has an opinion on this or a greater body of knowledge of tradition and rules to draw from. I won't change the strategy guide until we've agreed on a definition or decided to leave it undecided for now. Which is also a logical choice seeing as nobody's doing it right now. Of course it's good to have the definition ready for such things so there's no dispute when the surprise submissions beaches.
yea i see what you mean. and it makes sense to watch out for these things in categories that are sensitive in that regard. so banning 1.07 would be a viable option to ensure the quality of a run.

i have to say though: i think its really really unlikely that someone will come along that actually does speedruns on that version in the low% category. 1.07 was a version that only available for a short period of time (in the original retail copies) everything that came later was already patched. also, one would have to have a working pc from 2000 with win98 on it to even run the game, let alone record video footage from it Tongue i don't know, but that is like having a commodore64 sealed in the box (meaning: ultra rare)

dont wanna spoil anything, i'm just throwing that in there for fun Smiley ...would be hilarious tho. one of those old white/grey boxes, sounding like vacuum cleaners and with a crt attached to it running thief2 like back in the release days xD
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-04-26 09:35:22 am
You're remembering wrong: XP runs the game fine, don't know about Vista. I personally happen to have bought the game when it was still v. 1.07 which is mostly why I even noticed the difference. And yes it's quite unlikely for anyone to be running it now, however it's not against SDA rules hence the need for a ruling.

I actually created that thread now: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/another_quandary_with_thief_2_low_definition.html

Socrates, I trust you're going to read what I wrote? Could you please make additions as needed?

EDIT: And so I'm going away for a week. Won't necessarily check up on this stuff until then.
Okay I'm back (and really tired). Looks like there wasn't any discussion on the thread I created. Well, not entirely unexpected. We'll have to leave the argument for now I suppose until such a time when someone's interested in submitting something for low%.