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Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast (Any %) (Segmented)

Verifier Responses

Now that I think about it, my question doesn't really need answering.

I don't want to sound mean, but I'm going to reject this run. The runner did not post on the forums (there are at least 2 major topics concerning the run at the moment, and the latest one has been recently restarted). Since the runner did not look for any recent tricks, the early part of the run suffers from outdated strategies (beginning of artus lost almost a full minute). The other part of the run that bothers me is over-segmentation. Using 63 segments for a game like this is just insane. The first thing to take into consideration is that the time loss from segmentation alone is 31.5 seconds. The other is that the segments did not make sense, especially in the early part of the run. Most of the segments seem like they were decided out of convenience rather than strategy. Rather than picking a segment break based on the challenge of a trick, it appears that each segment was made to allow for the segments to be completed quicker since each one had less to accomplish.

I do hope that the runner chooses to continue running this game and starts posting in the forums to get up to date on the latest tricks and strategies. There are at least 2 "nice" moments in this run where an unknown shortcut is used, but I'm sure that the times for every level can be dropped with more than 1 person working on the run.

The last abandoned forum post for Jedi Outcast can be found here, while the latest can be found here.

General comments:

Video Quality: For some reason, the game messages appearing at the top of the screen were only 10% visible. Having a cropped screen is not good for a speedrun - I hope it was just due to the encoding so it can be fixed. Pretty good frame rate though, compared to the current speedrun (thanks to modern hardware).

Audio Quality: Good

This run seems like an incremental improvement over the current speedrun, but it's a shame some quite large shortcuts were not included. However, unlike the previous verifier, I'm not against the large number of segments used - whatever it takes (within reason) is fine by me. Besides, if you hold a movement direction while loading the game you get a little boost which almost cancels out the half second penalty anyway.

The strafe jumping in this run is mostly better than the current speedrun, saving a fair amount of time.

Individual segment comments:

Segment 1 & 2: As per verifier one's comments above, it's a little slow compared to the "in progress" speedrun, but that wasn't available for reference at the time of this run.

Segment 7: Did not use the "radiation shield door" skip, which involves sitting on the edge of the doorway as it is considered outside the radiation area. Again, this was probably only discovered after the segment was completed.

Segment 20: Did not use the lightsaber pillar as an elevator (discovered in 2008)

Segment 24: Did not use the long jump to the garbage cart, or the more difficult trick jump off the enemy's head (although that could be forgiven as those were only discovered recently). However, it does improve significantly on the current run's time by using two other shortcut jumps.

Segment 26: This level was interesting as the runner did not use a huge timesaving trick that is already in the current speedrun (exploding the crate through the sniper hole) but he uses another jump which could potentially save some more time than the previous best known shortcuts (jump up to the password door from crate directly below).

Segment 28: I like the use of the thermal detonators here. Though it would have been even better to throw another one in the center of those bowcaster enemies that come out to attack.

Segment 32: I would discourage the use of force speed for the reborn fight as it makes the wait time longer to get through the door.

Segment 33: Good use of the imperial heavy repeater secondary fire here to clear the laser mines and take care of enemies.

Segment 34: Nice strafe jumps at the beginning of this segment.

Segment 37: Fast Tavion kill! Nice work.

Segment 38: Very fast getting to the top. Good job.

Segment 43: The part from the ATST onwards seems slower than the current speedrun.

Segment 47: Awesome new skip here! Not quite sure what the pause was for at the door, but I assume it was so that the elevator was in the right place to perform the manouvre.

Segment 49: Quite a few small mistakes here, this segment could have been redone to look a bit more fluid.

Segment 59: This segment was done in almost exactly the same amount of total time as the current speedrun, but I think it could have been improved a lot more.


I wanted to accept this run but unfortunately there are just too many shortcuts that are not used in the first few levels. I'd encourage the runner to make another attempt though, as it's obvious that he has the ability to put in a great performance.

Love the fact that some new skips were found - even if this run gets rejected I'd expect to see the runner's name in the credits for the next accepted run due to some good contributions.

Decision: Reject

I wonder why the verification video is so dark?

Also it says 24 segments in the verification notes (leftover from LL's run), but there are a lot more and they are conspicuously short. Runner could've included a little more comments about any and all mistakes that he made, and written in more detail about the tricks used. And about why he segmented the way he did, was there that much randomness in AI behaviour or what? There was never a feeling that the segments had been optimised to *perfection* either. Was all the getting stuck in random walls in several segments really unavoidable in realistic terms? Actually there are lots of similar little mistakes in the old run too, maybe it just looks better in 3rd person view :).

The trick jumping in this run is very smooth whenever it succeeds perfectly, i.e. at the beginning of artus_mine in segment 7.

Decision: Reject because of failing to come across as polished thoughout. For that many more segments, the standards should be pretty high too.

In general
Audio/Video: Fine, no problems.
Cheating: None from what I could tell.

Good use of strafejumping/bunnyhopping. A problem (if cutscenes add to the time) is that the author skips the cutscenes in a slow way, when it can be done faster with some good timing.

Comments for each level:
Lvl 1: Author didn't make the long window jump but stopped at the cliff and saved. The run toward the big room with the buttons was somewhat disrupted; there were many times he got blocked by a wall, a door or otherwise. Finally, the button pressing itself was slow and unsmooth and could easily be improved with some practicing. All in all, the time for this level is not so good for today’s standards. Let me venture that this level can be done in 40 seconds or so with some mastering.

Lvl 2: (segs 3-6)
The first segment was smooth and good. He presses the buttons without too much trouble. There’s one minor lapse though, and that’s the fact that he presses both of the two buttons in the room with the ice room. It has proven feasible to only press one button. Moving on, it goes rather smooth but when he’s in the small “pipe” (for lack of a better word; the small passages in which you have to duck to move on) he avoids jumping, which would get him faster through. He also makes this mistake in other parts of the speedrun. After this, he uses a pretty solid trick before the trip mines; he kind of jumps over, the mines explode and he gets a boost toward the next door. Very nice.
After this point, there’s nothing too impressive. In the room before the last room (the one with the crystals), he jumps as if to avoid getting blocked by the crystals, rather than shooting the crystals which would make it easier for him to navigate to the next room.

Lvl 3: (segs 7-9)
I am glad to see that he made the long jump over the ‘river’. However I had expected after this that he would have used a shortcut to get onto the first flying bus. This is possible by jumping onto the ‘door’ that the bus goes through right before the room with the red lighty thing. If you stand right in this door opening, the door won’t close and you won’t take damage. As soon as the red thingy stops, you can then jump onto the bus and catch the first ride to the mine. The author didn’t use this and uses a much slower way.
The travel through the mine went fine although there was some trouble pressing the button on that machine thingy in the end. Killing the NPCs at the control point (the place at which you have to press a button, and an explosion follows) went OK, but it’s probably improvable by using mines/explosives to kill more NPCs at once.

Lvl 4: (segs 10-13)
We all know how tiresome and annoying this level is. The first segment is OK. There are several times he gets blocked by either NPCs or walls, and it’s slowing him down. There are also problems pressing the buttons correctly (the in-game buttons), and this again slows him down. I think adding a segment more and perfecting each segment more would help.
There’s a significant time saver that he doesn’t use. It’s when you’re falling down through the long shaft before you enter green mines. If you choose to not press a button earlier, the ‘wind’ that slows your falling down remains inactivated, and you can fall on the small things to the sides to survive. This of course requires a good amount of bactas, but it’s worth getting these since it saves some time. The green mine part went OK considering its difficulty; it’s hard to get a smooth run in that place.
It’s nice that the author has figured out that you don’t need to kill the NPCs before finding the imperial commander. Indeed, you can get the commander to move along while the NPCs won’t attack you. The author uses this trick at first, but in the second room, he himself attacks a NPC which then makes all the NPCs mad. He ends up losing a great deal of time dealing with the stormtroopers when he possibly could have avoided it.

Lvl 5: (segs 14-17)
The completion of this level is not too bad. However there’s a point at which he has to move to use another blaster because the ATST has shot at the first one. It’s my guess that this could be avoided if the author had shot this ATST when he first came across the blaster thingy.

Lvl 6: (segs 17-18)
Nothing too bad, only a few disruptions in the jumps, e.g. when he’s blocked by a door. Could be improved but there isn’t that much time to save in this level.

Lvl 7: (segs 19-21) (Yavin Temple)
OK fast play through here. There’s just a rather big problem: there’s an insane time saving trick that the author didn’t use (understandably so; it requires a genius to think of doing the trick and apparently the author has not checked one of the few JK2 speedrun threads on SDA which contains a video of the trick.)

Lvl 8: (segs 21-25) (Nar Shadaa Streets)
The author uses the traditional and slow way of getting to the last elevator. He has to wait for the flying pad so he from that can jump to the next place. There’s a trick you can do to get there faster. It involves jumping on some small steps to get there. It’s hard to explain. Other than that, the author makes some nice jumps from the glass-walled passage to the flying bus. Well done.

Lvl 9: (segs 26-28)
Good play through, but once again the author unfortunately avoids using a nice timesaving trick. It involves destroying the fire crate by shooting it through a small window. The author cleverly uses detonators to kill the ‘turrets’ in the big room. Nice.

Lvl 10: (segs 28-30)
Not much to say here. Went OK smooth.

Lvl 11: (segs 31-32)
The author kills the ugnaught and presses the button himself instead of using mind trick to make the ugnuahgt press the button. Doing the latter could have saved a few secs. Killing the reborn with nades was good, but it could have been done with one, and without force speed. Other than that, pretty smooth and good run in this level. It was good that the author used force pull to get the droid unit faster to the elevator in the last room. The killing of the second Reborn was also exceptionally good.

Lvl 12 (segs 33-35)
The author cleverly uses force push to move the droid unit faster. Very nice. The play through here is pretty smooth. In the last room, however, I’m pretty sure it’s possible to kill the commander and get his keys faster, maybe by using force speed. Other than that, well done.

Lvl 13 (segs 36-37)
The killing of Tavion was remarkably cunning. Thumbs up for the author. Other than that, pretty smooth play through of the level.

Lvl 14 (segs 38-39
There’s missing a part of the level. The jumping up in the big room went good.

Lvl 15 (segs 40-43)
OK play through here. But in the last part, the author could have jumped straight past the ATST instead of waiting for it to move. This would have saved a good amount of time. Also, there’s some fiddling getting through the final hole to the next level.

Lvl 16 (segs 44-48)
The play through of this lvl contains an ingenious speed trick that involves jumping on a robot enemy NPC and then onto the moving platform. For this alone, the author gets a thumb up from me in this level. Very nice. Although evidently, he could have done the trick sooner because he didn’t need as much force power as he anticipated. Other than this, OK play through.

Lvl 17 (segs 49-50)
OK play through. Nice killing of shadowtrooper. But there’s some fiddling with the doors and your path gets blocked by some stormtroopers. This could have been improved.

Lvl 18 (segs 51-53)
Segment 53: in the big room with the controls, the author misses a jump and has to jump up again. (00:40 in the vid). Other than this, OK play through in this long level.

Lvl 19 (segs 54-55)
OK play through once again.

Lvl 20 (segs 56-58)
I liked the part right before meeting Galak Fyaar. Author is using a fast way of destroying the thingies in the room (god, what to call these things?); fast and efficient. The killing of Fyaar was also done quickly. Moving on to the part with the messed up gravity, author actually does a good job of navigating to the end of the level without too much trouble. There are however a few disturbances in the end where he’s being blocked by two stormtroopers.

Lvl 21 (segs 59-60)
Avoiding the water could have saved some more time, although it only happens a few times. There are times where it goes somewhat slowly because the author has too little force power to jump. I think this could be improved.

Lvl 22 (seg 61)
Only thing to comment for me is in the end where the author chooses to go through one of the ‘towers’ instead of jumping around it on a cliff. I think that by doing this, the author could have preserved some of his speed. Other than that, pretty good.

Lvl 23 (seg 62)
Smooth play through, although with a few disturbances. For example in the end when killing shadowtroopers, the author has to wait for the second one to land from the air. Some time could have been saved if the shadowtrooper stayed on the ground. But then again, this depends on luck. So maybe a segment more would be advantageous.

Lvl 24 (seg 63)
Pretty good. Killing Desann went fast and easy.

Closing comments and decision
In deciding whether I should reject or accept this run, let me quote SDA Knowledge Base:

“Do not feel ashamed if you are rejecting a run. Ask yourself whether people would really want to see this run. Sometimes people submit sub-par runs just so they can get their name on SDA.”

First off, would people really want to see this run? I guess so, yeah – for the simple reason that it’s notably better than the current. Especially seeing as people did want to see the currently established run, which is (much) worse than this author’s. The thing is, we’re 7 years into the future since the last run, and many new tricks have been discovered. Does this run live up to the standard one could expect for a play through of a game that is now over 10 years old? Unfortunately, I think not.

“If you are not sure what is considered reject-worthy, here is a small list of reject-worthy mistakes:
• A death that costs a significant amount of time.
• A poor, inefficient route and bad planning.
• Using the wrong weapon against enemies or bosses.
• Failing to use the fastest method of movement when it could have easily been used.
• Numerous sloppy minor mistakes (missed jumps, whiffed attacks, failing to perform a shortcut) that cost a significant amount of time (significant depends on the run length).”

Does the author use poor, inefficient routes and bad planning? In quite a few cases, yes. The most time expensive examples include levels 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 15 as already pointed out in the level comments.

Does the author fail to use the fastest method of movement when it could have easily been used? Also yes in many cases. Here, we’re talking the numerous times when author runs into NPCs or walls, or when the author fiddles with the button pressing in-game. With that said, however, the author does a good job of strafejumping in the levels. He can move fast but is interrupted by walls etc.
For the amount of segments the author did, I would expect a higher degree of perfection.

There’s a very good possibility of improving this run. I am positive that several more minutes can be shaved off, especially given the major -- as well as minor -- shortcuts this author did not use. I anticipate that someone else will submit a faster run. I hope I’m not letting down the author – I want to applaud him for finding a few new neat tricks and playing very well in some parts. But I cannot accept this run for the simple reason that many significant time savers are left out. It is my hope that this encourages the author (or someone else) to attempt an even faster run. It is clear to me that the author has skill in speedrunning this game and has potential for discovering new time savers and finally getting a significantly faster run.
Decision: Reject.

I haven't posted until now since I wasn't around from the 22nd until today, but...

I'm going to agree with the others decisions to Reject this run. While there are definitely some good new time savers included, there are a lot that aren't, and while I wouldn't reject purely on that basis as I doubt they would be omitted if the runner did not know about them and I don't like rejecting runs for reasons out of the runners control, there were far too many movement and planning mistakes for a run this heavily segmented. i.e Going out of his way to collect the trip mines in Atrus Detention that are removed before the Yavin section of the game. Why was this segment allowed to stand? Why was it not redone? It's not even that far back in the game. I feel that if the runner does want to redo this run, that more attention should be paid to optimising movements and avoiding losing time through simple things like getting stuck on corners, and that they should also take advantage of the forums.

That said, I don't think the run is bad at all, but for a run so heavily segmented, it's just not good enough.

Decision: Reject

Reason: Lack of polish given the segment count plus a missing chunk.

This run will be available for a month. After that this link will no longer work.
Thread title:  
Shame, this game is amazing. Hope the runner takes the advice to heart and tries again.
destroy them with lazers
Quote from aleckermit:
Shame, this game is amazing. Hope the runner takes the advice to heart and tries again.
SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)
Quote from X:
Quote from aleckermit:
Shame, this game is amazing. Hope the runner takes the advice to heart and tries again.
Runs: FCP, FC3, XWA, HD1-2, KotOR1-2
I've downloaded the verification video and I liked it a lot, great potential in the runner.