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JediTry
2007-06-19 07:30:14 am
Semi-retired FPS expert
You don't have to worry about loading screens, they don't count for the timing. Obviously that would not be fair. My loading screens are like 3 times longer than yours!

VHS is also tricky for timing, but you should get a feeling of how you're doing when you compare it to my run. Good luck with sorting out the edgyness of the game...!
Psonar
2007-06-20 09:19:07 am
Long live SF64!
Ok, I finally managed a first segment that I'm happy with.

Here's a timing breakdown:



Comparing the 'action' portions, I think I've managed about 10-12 seconds of improvement over yours, Jeditry.  I'll probably not upload make and upload a video unless someone requests it, though I'm tempted since it's a good segment, and it's the first.  We'll see...

Now I'm working on Segment 2... I've been practicing the scavenger skirmish so that I can do that quickly.  One thing I've found is that the amount of ammo you get in your phaser rifle at the beginning of the scavenger portion is pre-determined when you load Voy1... in general it's a random amount of ammo, but when I start from my 'Run1_Voy1' save I'm getting a very sucky 82 ammo each time, so I'll likely recreate that save (health = 100, so the save is recreateable) and see if I can't work off of a save file that grants me 200+ in the rifle.

I think this one will just be about luck in maneuvering Voyager quickly and killing scavenger's quickly, but nothing too tricky -- and no more game freezing!

I'm looking forward to the Etherian ship.  I know that portion very well and it's a very straightforward part to run.

So the next 2-3 segments should get done within this week I would hope.  I spent 100's of attempts on segment 1, but it involved a horrible glitch, an explosion jump, and several precision shots.

Time for bed... I also need to comment on your videos.  Now that I'm done with Segment 1 I can calm down and write some feedback for you.  How long are you around before you move, or whatever you said you were doing?
JediTry
2007-06-20 12:05:08 pm
Semi-retired FPS expert
Hmm...  I don't want to spoil it for you, but as far as I know the cutscenes do count towards the time, because there is still player control (you can skip them). So your time is 2:22, which is only 2 seconds faster than mine. My times are around 10 seconds slower in each of the parts, but I only need 20 secs to skip the intro, you need 33. Double-check with somebody whether what I said is right (that skippable cutscenes count towards the time). Better to sort it out now than to get surprises later on!

Congrats on those 20-ish seconds of improvements though. Fantastic work!

The Scavenger battles are worth looking into. There are clearly defined spawn points, and if you can find those you can easily imrpove the time. Partly it has to do with killing everything for the new set of enemies to spawn, but at the very end f.e. you have to return to the team for the final cutscene to trigger. One time I was just wandering about the room wondering why nothing happened. Also make sure you have enough sniper ammo for the first set of scavengers on the top level. And use the phaser secondary until it's empty. It saves you ammo, sothat you don't have to run around collecting it.

I don't know how "legal" your "save manipulation" in regard to ammo is. I recommend just using the save you have from the previous segment you'll use for the run.

As you've seen in my run you can skip one of the objectives at the beginning. Then it's running and skill, not much luck. The battles I already talked about. 10 seconds improvement are definitely possible.

I'm leaving on the 28th, but as it looks I should've internet soon after that. Just keep posting, I'll be around.
Psonar
Psonar
Edit history:
Psonar: 2007-06-20 06:14:53 pm
2007-06-20 06:07:21 pm
Long live SF64!
Quote:
Hmm...  I don't want to spoil it for you, but as far as I know the cutscenes do count towards the time, because there is still player control (you can skip them). So your time is 2:22, which is only 2 seconds faster than mine. My times are around 10 seconds slower in each of the parts, but I only need 20 secs to skip the intro, you need 33. Double-check with somebody whether what I said is right (that skippable cutscenes count towards the time). Better to sort it out now than to get surprises later on!

Yeah, I forgot to hit enter for a few seconds into the initial cutscene (I let the console explode and everything go white before I realized I needed to be mashing Enter), but then I skipped the rest like normal. I'll go back and fix it if I have time, but I'd really like to move on with the run, and I made the improvements I wanted on the action portions. I re-did that segment enough for now, and I can always redo it later since I simply hit ESC and save as soon as I arrive on Voyager. I hate having a segment be rubbish because of 1 silly thing like that, so I have to compromise at some point.

Edit: I'm afraid that loading screens might count too in the end since there is a loading screen in the middle of the cutscenes.  I always thought that a segment was timed as everything from when you gain control until you finally lose control (begin saving).  I only took the loading screens out of my time here because it makes it a lot easier to compare mine to yours since load times are different.  I have no clue how they'll actually time it though.  A PS1 run done on the latest PS2 would gain tons of time in loading, for example, and there's no way to avoid that effect in that situation.  I kinda doubt they'll go through the trouble of timing the 50 some-odd portions of the game in-between all the loading screens, but I may be wrong as well.

Quote:
Congrats on those 20-ish seconds of improvements though. Fantastic work!

Thanks! Woohoo!

Quote:
The Scavenger battles are worth looking into. There are clearly defined spawn points, and if you can find those you can easily imrpove the time. Partly it has to do with killing everything for the new set of enemies to spawn, but at the very end f.e. you have to return to the team for the final cutscene to trigger. One time I was just wandering about the room wondering why nothing happened. Also make sure you have enough sniper ammo for the first set of scavengers on the top level. And use the phaser secondary until it's empty. It saves you ammo, sothat you don't have to run around collecting it.

I think that for the first scavenger skirmish the spawn points are very defined, and methodical, and I'm starting to get a good procedure for them.  I have noticed that not all of the scavengers need to be killed for Tuvok's message to activate. I often ignore the second guy up on the walkway and just shoot him for fun as I ride the lift up later!  I've also successfully ignored the Klingon that spawns by the wall opposite the lift - the closest spawn to your team.  I don't know if it's worthwhile to ignore any more than that even if you could, because you get shot up like crazy if you don't just rampage through and kill everyone.

Quote:
I don't know how "legal" your "save manipulation" in regard to ammo is. I recommend just using the save you have from the previous segment you'll use for the run.

As long as the segments are coherent and there is absolutely no inconsistancies from one segment to the next.  When I save on Voyager I save the moment I get there and I have 100 health and armor automatically, and no weapons or ammo. I name my save file 'Run1_Voy1.' So for segment 2, as long as I load a file called Run1_Voy1 which is at the moment I arrive on Voyager and I have the exact same health, armor, and ammo, then the verifiers will have nothing to claim inconsistancy.  That kind of 'save manipulation' is used often in console runs if it can be done without creating an inconsistancy.
 
Quote:
I'm leaving on the 28th, but as it looks I should've internet soon after that. Just keep posting, I'll be around.

Sweet - it's good to know I can get feedback down the road as I get to the later segments.

Also, your run will live on for all to see on archive.org. I've begun uploading now, and it will probably take the rest of the week to get everything on there, but once it's there it'll be online forever and available for anyone to check out. I also enjoy having files hosted online, because then I can grab one and watch it if I'm not at home or something. I'll make some generic comments for it saying what the run is and when it was done and stuff, but I probably won't do much more than that. Since it's your run, I'll gladly put up any comments you want on the archive.org details page. Also, once it's on archive.org you have the option of safely deleting it from your computer if you need the space since it'll be backed up on archive.org, which allows you to download the original IQ files, the archive-generated flash files (smaller), or watch it online in youtube fashion.
Psonar
2007-06-20 07:19:48 pm
Long live SF64!
I'll need to double post for this anyway....

Here are some comments I've written for Levels 6 through 7.3:

I've got a few comments on your Level 6 video, which is the Voyager portion just before the Borg mission.

There are 5 conversations in the locker room, 4 conversations in the lounge, and 1 in the armory. You initiated the first conversation in the locker room and then left when the second group conversation starting with "hey munro" starts soon after. You can initiate the second conversation to get it going (the one where Biessman wants revenge) and then head over to the lounge.  A conversation blaming munro starts by default, so then leave to let that play out, back in the locker room the 3 have split up, allowing you to talk to Chell, Biessman and Telsia... these conversations can overlap...from there go back to the lounge to have conversations with the remaining 3 people, then run to the armory (or fit this in earlier, like before the 3 in the locker room split) to hear about Seven's I-Mod.

I think those conversations and perhaps a visit to the transporter room and briefing room like you did are all that need to happen to get Tuvok to call you. I just think there might be a more efficient way of getting all the conversations out of the way - and who knows, it might just be timed anyway - I know I've ended up wandering around waiting for Tuvok before, where on yours he calls right after you make the last conversation.

Comments for Level 7.1 - Borg Mission part 1

I like how you shoot all the deactivated Borg after taking out the dis-node so that the team keeps up with you. I'm guessing that's the fastest way, which makes sense, because your teammates will shoot the deactivated drones otherwise.  There's a few places where you could've continued running while shooting to save a few seconds, I tend to pause to make shots too.

You seemed very organized in the part where you protect Seven from the Borg onslaught.  I think being a little more risky could yield a slightly better time, because you managed to stay back and conserve health, but a few times the next enemy was around a corner or something.

The multi-tiered part just before Seven sticks her hand in the Borg console could be a little faster.  You can send your team down a lift, then get off the lift and jump down into the middle to get to the lower level and cause the Borg to spawn before the lift reaches it... this gives you a few seconds of head start on that wave of Borg.  You can't jump down sooner, because the Borg won't spawn if you haven't taken out the preceeding wave entirely.

Level 7.2 - Borg part 2

Interesting way of taking out the enclosed dis-node... I always bounced a grenade back into the cage from the side. Yours is more consistent, but mine might save a second with a perfect shot - not sure which I'll use.

Gotta love those team elevators...seems like one of them didn't want to go because you had to hit the switch again... I've had that happen too, so I'll try and figure out how that works so I don't lose any more time waiting at elevators. That and you tended to stay at the elevator while waiting for the team... I'm not sure which is faster, doing that or running back out there to kill the Borg... I think once you hit the button the team will gather at the elevator regardless, as long as they aren't being attacked.

You still had a Borg to kill after the pact with the Borg? Funny!

Level 7.3 - Species 8472

I've tried different things on this level, but your way seems the most efficient.  I've tried going straight to the elevator with reckless abandon and then turning around and shooting about 100 enemies, but then I just have to back track like crazy because the team gets stuck with random straggling enemies that I ran past. So I think your way is best, because you take out all the enemies in each area so that the team can keep up with you.  Maybe a little bit of running ahead and then going back to take out the swarm that just spawned would help, since taking out 20 often takes the same amount of ammo and time as taking out 10 it seems.

That and I need to employ the grenade launcher like you do with the secondary fire... that was awesome! I always just used the tachyon gun and then resorted to the rifle for some stupid reason.

Good job with that part

For the Foster battle, I've noticed that Borg drones can be killed with the scavenger weapon's secondary fire if it's aimed at the ground near their feet.  This allows you to use up some dilithium crystal ammo in addition to the IMod ammo. For Foster, Imod secondary attack of course, but it might be valuable to get off maybe 2 shots of sniper ammo and secondary phaser fire before he adapts since they deal a lot of damage, and you do get a few shots before the IMod is the only option.

That's all for now - more comments coming soon!
JediTry
2007-06-20 09:37:06 pm
Semi-retired FPS expert
I'll reply without quoting, as usual...

As I understand it - and I did time a couple of runs before - everything is being timed except loading screens. Yes, we're actually nuts enough to watch the run and write down all the frames that include loading screens. These are then subtracted from the overal frame count, multiplied by the framerate you used in the game, and that's the final time. If there are 10 loading screens in 1 segments it'll have to be timed accordingly.

I noticed differences in skipping the cutscenes. At the beginning I was able to get through them in no time, but later on there'd always be some part that didn't want to move on. Very annoying. Ask somebody "official" about this, it'll save you a lot of trouble.

Good work on the scavenger bit. I did it more like "run through and shoot everything". Grin

I kinda understand how you want to do the save manipulation, but it seems strange that the amount of ammo you get would be that random. If it is though do whatever is necessary, as long as the segments are consistent.
 
And yeah, if you upload vids you can always get feedback. Other than that I'm not really sure how much use I can be down the road. Perhaps if you have more questions about my run. Anyway just ask about anything you want to know. I might even have my comments somewhere, but they were kind of silly. If you think it could be helpful I can try to find them for you.

On to post no.2...

Voyager missions... I hate them. I hate them all. That one seemed to go reasonably well, so I just kept it. Again I was told it's timed, so I tried to trigger all the conversations and move on.

Level 7.1 - Borg Mission part 1

You're right about shooting the Borg. They'd just hold up the team later on, so I figured it'd be better to kill them on the go. The stopping for shooting is due to the edgyness of the game, which might be different on the PS, but on PC it really sucks.

As for protecting Seven I figured it a waste of energy to run aroud like crazy. I did that as well, but it does not only look bad, it also isn't faster I think. I also wanted to stick around the "door", so I could progress as quickly as possible. All the times I ran around it was already open for ages until I figured it out. What you could do is to find out the spawning points of the last enemies before Seven finishes working, but that might be too much of a pain.

The lift part is all right. I've had that much trouble with it that I was more than happy to keep a segment like the one you saw. Every time either an enemy was around, a team-member was not perfectly on the platform or a fly decided to sit on my screen the lift would not move... Wait, I think I'm talking about the later lifts. Anyway...

Level 7.2 - Borg part 2

I tried the perfect grenade, but gave up because of consistency issues. I pulled it off 10 times in a row and then always screwed up afterwards. After that I didn't hit it once. There are qute a few nerves-related things I gave up on, this is one of them.

And now the team-elevator comments from above can be inserted.

> You still had a Borg to kill after the pact with the
> Borg? Funny!

WATCH OUT! If you're fast enough 3 Borg appear after the pact. If for whatever reason you don't kill them, and Seven stops working on the console, you're stuck in that level and the whole segment is screwed. It happened to me a couple of times.

Level 7.3 - Species 8472

The team yet again sucks in this level. You better baby-sit, because they're not capable of progressing very far without you. You could even move along the edges after that one bridge, but there's no point. A total waste of great speedrunning possibilities because of moronic team programming.

The grenade launcher I mostly use to save on tachyon gun ammo. You probably also noticed that I used tachyon primary for single enemies and secondary for hordes. Secondary is very powerful but uses a lot of ammo. Phaser secondary would also be an option, but I had trouble to quickly switch weapons.

As for the Foster battle I tried a couple of things, and the way in my vid seemed by far the fastest to me. If you've got a faster one that's great. Looking forward to it.
Psonar
2007-06-20 10:44:40 pm
Long live SF64!
I've uploaded the first batch of videos to Archive.org, and the item is now publicly viewable:

Archive.org Page for Jeditry's run

Archive.org is still processing the videos to make flash versions, and I still have 13 more files to upload, but anyone interested can go ahead and grab up through level 5.1.

Jeditry, I'll make any changes that you want to the Archive.org page - it's your run.
MetzGER
2007-06-20 11:36:31 pm
If it aint broke don't fix it.
Thanks a lot for the vids......
Psonar
2007-06-21 12:55:35 am
Long live SF64!
Sure thing!

5.2 is up now as well!

Also, the flash versions are up for anyone who wants to immediately watch the videos like on youtube.
MetzGER
2007-06-21 01:01:52 am
If it aint broke don't fix it.
Why is it named Cinepack?  Huh?
Psonar
Psonar
Edit history:
Psonar: 2007-06-21 03:33:52 am
2007-06-21 01:13:00 am
Long live SF64!
crap...I had to change the others to divx, because archive.org wanted to say they used cinepack... don't worry, it's just a naming issue (The files are divx, but they aren't labeled 'divx' unless I go in and do it manually) ...will be changed momentarily.

Edit: I changed the label to divx, and I think the change will go through once it's done deriving files (making flash videos and preview shots) for the new video.

Edit2: Archive seems to be slow right now in changing page data...just grab 5.2 by clicking cinepack or find the file manually in the http directory.

Also, apparently archive.org now makes 3 additional versions of each movie file... an .flv, a 64 kb/s .mp4 (LOW quality) and a 256 kb/s .mp4 which are all smaller than the divx if you are looking to download a compressed version.  The latest VLC and GOM media player (and others) play flv's if anyone needs to know that.

Edit3: Too many edits, I know... just wanted to report that the "divx" error is fixed on archive.org now.

In other news I got a segment 2 recorded.  I save several seconds over Jeditry's run, but I think I'm going to try to beat it on another portion of tape.

Jeditry, I haven't compared this to your run in detail, but this is the timing I got for my recent segment 2 attempt:

JediTry
JediTry
Edit history:
JediTry: 2007-06-21 06:29:03 am
2007-06-21 06:28:21 am
Semi-retired FPS expert
The archive page looks great! Just leave it like that. Somehow the file names don't seemto appear correctly, but that's a minor issue.

To the timing of your second segment. I (again, more or or less) timed my run and it compares to yours as follows:

load :07
v1 :07
load :07 (this is all in the 1st segment)
v2 :38 (mine :40)
load :08 (mine :07)
v3 :50 (mine :53)
load :09 (mine :07)
v4 1:59 (mine 2:16)
load : 22 (mine :08 )
v5 2:12 (mine: 2:48 )
load :12 (mine :10)
stasis0 :05
sav :11

An overall improvement of almost 1 minute. That's great.
Psonar
Psonar
Edit history:
Psonar: 2007-06-21 11:50:28 am
2007-06-21 09:06:08 am
Long live SF64!
Sweet! I did a similar rough comparison and found about that same result and was quite pleased :D.

I retried the 2nd segment many times, but I could barely get a smooth segment up to the scavengers, much less a good fight sequence, so I'm very satisfied with what I've got.

I moved on to segment 3, and I have my first set of times from it now:



I haven't done a time for time comparison yet, but I know I saved 15-30 seconds thanks to the forcefield and a few other improvements.  This one might be a full minute as well.  My segment 3 is your 3.1 and 3.2 put together.  Of course 3.1 is an entirely timed portion that is mostly waiting.

Does the amount of time it takes me to type in a save file count against me in any way besides "style points"?  I accidentally had caps lock on when I typed in my save file, and I really wanted to change it, so I went ahead and back spaced and typed it out again which caused saving to take forever. I'm hoping that doesn't count against me since the save menu is outside of the gaming world and thus control of the character has been lost and the segment has ended as the saving process begins.

Out of curiosity, Jeditry, do you have a Google account?  I'm putting my times in a spreadsheet and then uploading it to a Google spreadsheet.

I did it originally because I thought I might be able to embed portions of it into the forum, but they only permit html embedding with it and the forums can basically only do flash and images.  But, it could still be a good way to keep track of times, especially when we start wanting to know what my total time is, or my total improvements.

My STVEF1 Online Spreadsheet

Hopefully that will be handy for people to reference.  Anyone who wants access to make changes and whatnot, just let me know and I'll make you a collaborator.  All you need is a Google account.  I'm used to Excel so I find it easiest to make changes in Excel and upload a new version. The file can be exported as an excel, .csv, .txt, .pdf, embedded html, etc.  Let me know if having that Google spreadsheet out there is helpful to anyone.

I'm going to go take a crack at improving Segment 3 to make sure I'm happy with it.  My only major loss was in the room where you get the Stasis weapon, I had 1 stupid straggler Etherian that I lost 5-10 seconds going back to get.  Other than that, the segment is golden.  I even managed to get all the way up the squid walkway almost without stopping, making it out with 9 health. 8)

The next batch to Archive.org will likely happen in about 5 hours and should take atleast 4 hours past that.  So 12 hours from now, there should be a fresh batch of stuff up, for anyone waiting on those videos.  I've seen a handful of downloads, so I'm glad some folks besides just me are getting to enjoy Jeditry's run!

[hr]
Edit:

I've settled on a Segment 4 now.  Here are the times:



That saves 13 seconds from Jeditry's run, mostly because of the armory trick of only grabbing a single weapon, then a few seconds were saved b/c Jeditry missed a door (I know how frustrating that is!).  I did my through the glass trick, but it's no better because I then have to wait for someone to walk out the door - but it looks cool!

Also the total improvements for segment 3 are 45 seconds.  34 seconds were all on the final portion which contained the teleporter pad and the forcefield.

The times comparisons are all on the Google spreadsheet linked above.  I'm not sure what to do next... take on the scavengers or make some camcorder videos to post online...
JediTry
2007-06-21 02:22:22 pm
Semi-retired FPS expert
Those times look good. Keep on working! Grin

The in-save menu doesn't count towards the time. You do however get a penalty for every time you save, something like a second. If somebody has more accurate info please correct me.

No, I don't have a Google account. If you're happy timing my run for comparison I'll leave everything to you. That spreadsheet is very interesting, good work.

Even though you're improving my times by quite a bit I'm actually not that unhappy, because my run seems to not have been that bad after all. It would've been a nice incentive for somebody to improve it, which is actually what's happening now. Mission accomplished. Grin

Oh, the missed door... screw that one...

You'll have to show me that forcefield trick on day. I'm curious. Camcorder videos to post online, I'd say. Grin But only if it doesn't take too long, otherwise keep running.
Psonar
Psonar
Edit history:
Psonar: 2007-06-21 11:31:25 pm
2007-06-21 03:21:23 pm
Long live SF64!
Just what the doctor ordered!

I recorded camcorder videos already and I've been slowly sending them to Filefront.  Segment 3 that you're wanting to see is still on my thumb drive and I plan to upload it from work, and Segment 4 should be uploading now:

Segment 1 - Borg
Segment 2 - Voyager
Segment 3 - Etherians
Segment 4 - Voyager

I'll update with links for the others when they go up.  I decided not to send them through Windows Movie Maker first with hopes that the quality would be a little better, but I think the result is that Filefront isn't treating the files as videos, thus there's no streaming display.  VLC is about the only thing I can get them to play in.  If those files don't work for you then I'll do the usual Movie Maker routine.  By the way VLC is very easy to acquire and install these days at www.videolan.org.

[hr]
Edit: Segment 4 is up!
Edit2: Segment 3 is up - and in wmv format
Edit 3: Segments 1, 2, and 4 have been replaced with .wmv formats to enable Filefront's youtube-like streaming function.
JediTry
2007-06-21 05:27:07 pm
Semi-retired FPS expert
For some reason WMP wants to play the files instead of VLC. Everything fights for your run... Grin

Segment 1 - Borg

Excellent execution, there is nothing I can see that can be improved, except for skipping the cutscenes, which is just terrible.

Segment 2 - Voyager

The jump at 1:19 you should've done my way. Looks better, but doesn't save time. In general this first part looks strangely similar to my route. Grin
At 1:53, do you get stuck at the elevator entrance? Happened to me a couple of times. Not worth re-doing the segment for that.
In the next part, instead of going to the doctor you could move to the front of the team and then enter the room first when the door opens. Not really worth it though, saves perhaps a second.
Another very good segment, I'd keep it.

Segment 4 - Voyager

I never used the zoom function in this game. It's good to show people it exists. This one is very nice as well.

Looking forward to segment 3, the first a bit difficult one.
Psonar
Psonar
Edit history:
Psonar: 2007-06-21 10:18:22 pm
2007-06-21 07:36:02 pm
Long live SF64!
>Segment 1 - Borg

I'll redo that at some point with better cutscene skipping... I was dumbfounded that I'd finally completed the segment, that I forgot... I want to keep it, but not when I actually watch that horrible bit of cutscene.  It'll be re-done. (sigh)

>Segment 2 - Voyager

>The jump at 1:19 you should've done my way. Looks better, but doesn't save time.

So... my way looks better but doesn't save time? I basically just jumped toward the switch - in my mind it took the same amount of time to get to the ground on either side of the door, and since the door opens in the middle, both switches are equal distance from the opening, and my way puts me going in the direction of the hallway as I go through the door.  And the switch was a lot easier to hit upon landing.  I was more trying to get past that bit consistantly so that I could do the warp core part where you got snagged on a bulkhead Tongue

>At 1:53, do you get stuck at the elevator entrance?
No, I waited... I've determined that that switch only works after Chakotay says "Loading Dock" and after movement is detected in the turbolift... your solution was to hit the switch move back then forward and hit it again... I found that to be inconsistent, and that you could get stuck in place, so I just wait for Chackotay to almost finish before hitting the switch for the fastest result.

>In the next part, instead of going to the doctor you could move to the front of the team and then enter the room first when the door opens.
Really? I never knew you could get in front of Telsia and Foster, because they block your path.  That and I use a lot more Scavenger grenades somewhat recklessly, causing me to need the extra health.  I hate dying from those stupid explosive barrels.

>I never used the zoom function in this game. It's good to show people it exists. This one is very nice as well.

Yeah I was trying to come up with something somewhat interesting to watch without mimicking your hilarious head bobbling antics!  I never use the zoom in game either, but I find it fun to mess around with for whatever reason.  I'm sure the nice glow it puts on the image looks extra crappy through the video camera...

>Looking forward to segment 3, the first a bit difficult one.

Segment 3 just went up!

In other news, Jeditry's Part 5.3 and Part 6 are now available on Archive.org! More coming soon!

Edit:
7.1 and 7.2 are now on Archive.org!
JediTry
2007-06-21 10:33:20 pm
Semi-retired FPS expert
That first segment is really unfortunate, because the playing is so good. You could always just keep it.

> So... my way looks better but doesn't save time?

I meant my way looks better, but yours might well be a bit faster. Nothing to get stuck on though. I'm just commenting on minor things, as obviously you have optimized what there was to improve.

> I was more trying to get past that bit consistantly so
> that I could do the warp core part where you got
> snagged on a bulkhead 

Yeah, another fond memory. I'm surprised my laptop survived making this run... Roll Eyes

Interesting strategy at the elevator. I never thought of it that way. I remember though wondering why the damn thing wouldn't start. In general the lifts seem to be doing whatever they want.

> Really? I never knew you could get in front of Telsia
> and Foster, because they block your path.

You can, but usually it's not worth skipping the health. Anyway you use the time well with a good shot.

> Yeah I was trying to come up with something
> somewhat interesting to watch without mimicking
> your hilarious head bobbling antics!

There is another nice one later in the game.

> Segment 3 just went up!

Downloading.
Psonar
Psonar
Edit history:
Psonar: 2007-06-22 12:10:03 am
2007-06-22 12:09:32 am
Long live SF64!
Ok, my first four segments are now all available on Filefront in WMV format (they were ASF) and can be watched on Filefront in youtube fashion.

Segment 1 - Borg
Segment 2 - Voyager
Segment 3 - Etherians
Segment 4 - Voyager

Also, for anyone interested in Jeditry's run, I've uploaded up through Part 7.2 to archive.org.

Now I've got some cool stuff to report.  I've been experimenting with the Voyager portion after the Scavenger mission, where you're waiting for Tuvok.  I made a save file at the beginning called "Voy9Test" and then I follow my fastest route through the level, which activates all conversations in about a minute and a half.  Here's the interesting part.  When Tuvok hails me, I make another save file called "Voy9Test2" and the save page shows the exact time (down to the second!) of the saves, allowing me to time the level.  Now, sometimes Tuvok hails me right when the last dialogue ends, and my fastest time like this is 1:32 or so.  However 3/4 times Tuvok doesn't hail me until about 4:15 into the level!  My best time with that situation is 4:10.  Every time I play the level it's either 1:30-1:40 or 4:10-4:20.  So it seems that some percentage of the time, Tuvok waits 2:40 after the last dialogue, or if you're lucky he'll call right when you're done.  I've noticed that the game uses randomness with the extra personnel in the halls too... in my 4th segment, the person in the hall is always 1 of 4 or so characters, but not the same all the time.  This randomness also existed in the ammo for your first rifle in segment 2.  I've seen everything from 50 to 288.  So basically I'll make that voyager portion it's own segment, and see if I can't retry it until I get lucky.

Other than that I finally watched some more of your videos Jeditry, and I don't have a ton to say, because I haven't worked those levels as much.

I love the phaser drawings on the dreadnought stuff.  Dang those freaking elevators! GO! Move it! ARROW! And of course... Star Wars!

How did Chang and the other teammate end up horizontal on the ground like that!? Was that a glitch with the altered gravity?  Weird!

The biggest thing I'd like to improve on is the end of the dreadnought with all those dang turrets.  You went slow because you were dying and it was totally understandable, but I would love to find a way to do that faster, maybe even by making that it's own segment if possible.

Other than that nothing stood out except for times when you hung aroud to kill stuff, but I understand that you had to babysit the team to get them on an elevator, so it really made perfect sense.

Awesome work dodging in and out of so many robots!

For the Voyager sequence with the Mess Hall, I know of a place where you could save 15 or more seconds, because you talked to Neelix, when he was on his way back to initiate the next part of the Telsia conversation.  I actually thought you have it pretty good in that they saw the ship after you went to your room... I've had experiences like the Tuvok thing where I got to wait for 3 extra minutes before.  I'm guessing a similar thing happens here... I've found in general that characters with nothing to say "I'm busy" or whatever, are never part of the script to progress the story, so I'll ignore them and get the conversations out of Tom, Chakotay, Chang, twice from Neelix, and then head to Munro's quarters.

Well, I've got a pretty good route down for the scavenger stuff. I'll likely run everything up to the federation part as one segment, combining your 5.1 and 5.2.  5.3 needs it's own segment just because of the Hunter.  Ya know... I think he's random too.  You shoot at him, and he either crouches or celebrates, but either way his shield comes up, so I don't think your repeated attacks do anything.  I was trying to figure out what weapon is the most effective, and I can't seem to find a pattern, so I think I'm going to use the Stasis weapon, because it's easy to aim and I seem to actually get the hit more often than not, where the sniper rifle seems to never actually hit him.  I've even killed him entirely by shooting big grenades at the cieling so that they explode right when he becomes vulnerable.  Who knows, I'll just start timing it and get a goal to shoot for and settle on a good run with a good boss fight I guess.

Oh, I think I have a faster way to do the second portion of the federation section.  If you approach the docter directly in your disguise, he'll ask you to go get the blue medicine.  If you go get the red medicine instead you can tranquilize him and wake Telsia up quicker than your method of clearing out all the enemies.  Then you don't have to grab the health until Telsia is headed for the door, and you save on ammo and sanity and everything.  If it turns out your way is faster, then I've got a lot of enemy positions to learn!

I think that's all I've got for now.  Oh, another random occurance... "Odell's" dead body can be found 1 of 2 place: in the corner you drop to before you enter the Hirogen area, or in the corner before the firefight before the federation part.

Ok, I think that's it for now... I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Segment 3...
Psonar
Psonar
Edit history:
Psonar: 2007-06-23 02:19:22 am
2007-06-23 12:44:09 am
Long live SF64!
I figured this was worth the double post to announce this:

All parts of Jeditry's run are available on Archive.org!

The archive.org item listing is here.

Here's the HTTP link for all of the files.
Here's an FTP link if that suits you better.

And just to show my appreciation for Jeditry's run here's the individual download links for each of the files.  These are the very high quality divx files. For fast downloads I recommend the 256 kb MPEG4 versions found using the links above.

Remember that archive.org creates flash and mp4 versions of the files too, which might work well if you don't want wait for those high quality divx videos. Just ask and I'll post links to other versions if you have trouble finding them using the "http link" above. I've tested the different versions out and "256 kb .mp4" seems to be a good "normal" quality video (and a much quicker download!), Flash (.flv) is low quality, and I don't recommend the 64 kb at all.

Thanks go to Jeditry of course, and Enjoy! I'm sure he'd appreciate any feedback anyone has as well.

Edits: Added segment descriptions. Included more info about the smaller versions of the videos.
JediTry
JediTry
Edit history:
JediTry: 2007-06-23 12:09:49 pm
2007-06-23 12:09:20 pm
Semi-retired FPS expert
All right, first of all thanks for uploading my whole run. If anybody has feedback that'd be nice, but anyway you're already improving everything. Grin

The next Voyager mission shortcut sounds intriguing. I always had the feeling that sometimes it took a very short time, while other times it needed ages to get on with Tuvok and the game. This sort of randomness is really annoying. Think of a single segment run...

I just re-watched my last level, and there are quite a few improvements I can think of. You probably figured them out yourself already, or you will when you get there, so I'll probably not write everything down at this point.

> I love the phaser drawings on the dreadnought stuff.  
> Dang those freaking elevators! GO! Move it! ARROW!
> And of course... Star Wars!

There are a few very annoying moments in the levels to come. This is one way of killing time.

> How did Chang and the other teammate end up
> horizontal on the ground like that!? Was that a glitch
> with the altered gravity?  Weird!

I'm not sure whether they died or if it's some sort of defensive posture, but it was hilarious. I had to keep the segment just for that.

And I think you can improve the turrets at the end a lot. You could try the grenade launcher, something I didn't even think about at the time. If it works that should be easy, fast and safe. Otherwise the mines, as I did, work well, but you have to have perfect aim, otherwise they're not effective. Phaser secondary also works, but it's empty too quickly.

> Awesome work dodging in and out of so many robots!

You just have to keep moving. They don't really attack you, they just kind of run you over. As long as you're moving you don't even lose health.

The Hunter - no, my repeated attacks don't do anything, it's just for fun. The shield always goes up after a certain damage (zabb said), which basically means 1 hit, and apparently the weapon I use is the one that deals most damage. As for the rest of my strategy I think it's quite clear. Shoot him, then wait outside until he almost locks the weapon, then hide, after he shoots go out and repeat. If you hide too soon he'll move around the room. If you stay out he'll stay in exactly the same spot and everything goes faster. The first time I screwed it up, so he ran a bit, but luckily it was not too far. If it's just for the Hunter I don't think you need a new segment. That's the easiest part of the whole level.

Your doctor strategy is nice. I can't comment on it because I never even thought about that. Actually I didn't know you could do that...

Random info: somewhere in that level there's a glitch in the game. The floor has a few cracks, in through one of them you actually fall out of the ship into outer space. Hilarious.

On to your segment 3:
Is there no way to get up that teleport in the first room? I know, I tried it as well, and probably it's not possible. But perhaps with a little boost from the grenade launcher? Zabb said it boosts a tiny little bit, so maybe that's enough. Shoot a grenade in the space between the teleport and that thing you stand on, and then jump like you did exactly when the grenade explodes. Probably won't work, but you could try.

At 3:04 in your video, where'd you end up if you jumped down and didn't run into the teleporter? I've never even considered that.

The fight after you get the stasis weapon is not perfect, but you said that already yourself.

The forcefield shortcut is.. well... simple. I wonder why I never got that one. Oh yes... zabb... Good work!

In general very well executed. If there's no other shortcut you can probably even keep this attempt. The max 5 seconds lost in that fight don't matter so much.
Psonar
2007-06-26 02:03:25 am
Long live SF64!
Well I've been working on the scavenger bit (segment 5), and I've got something recorded... went ahead and did the timing on it to see how it compares, because I can't seem to get another decent segment recorded.

It's a 44 second improvement on your 5.1, 5.2, and 5.3.  That sounds great, but there are so many places where I lost 1-3 seconds that I know it could be improved by 15 or 20 seconds at least.  The time is "good" I suppose, but the quality of the segment just seems lacking because of minor hang ups. I'll try at it again tonight I guess, but if I can't get a better one, then I'll need to stick with what I've got and move on to the "waiting for Tuvok" segment.

See the Google Spreadsheet for the time breakdown and comparison.

I'll definitely keep that segment 3.  I don't feel like going back at this point.  If I get a good time and then I can't beat it with another few nights/100+ attempts then I'll keep it.  I realize that's not the best speedrunning practice, but this way I'll finish during summer, which is very preferable for me since the run would likely not be finished otherwise. (I wouldn't have time again until Spring or Next summer, and I'd have to start over since VHS won't be accepted)

If I can't get a better time on Segment 5 tonight, I'll post the video... It's ready to post, I'm just waiting to see if I can improve first.
JediTry
2007-06-26 08:02:28 am
Semi-retired FPS expert
Fair enough. Just go on with it, which is what I did as well. If somebody (or yourself) wants to improve the run later one there'll be a bit more space. Loking forward to the next segment!

And obviously I'm happy that at least once you were slower than me... at least until now...
Psonar
2007-06-26 08:35:50 am
Long live SF64!
Quote:
And obviously I'm happy that at least once you were slower than me... at least until now...

Hehe... I've basically used your run aas a benchmark... I try to not accept a segment until it's faster than yours, so that I know it's good.  I guess I kinda pretend like your run is already out and that mine isn't worthy unless it beats yours.

That being said, I have indeed finally finished Segment 5! I mentioned wanting 15-20 seconds of improvement. Well I finished a decent run that I felt like had a horrible boss fight, and I was so worried about it I thought it might not even be an improvement over my old run at all... turns out the boss fight was a 1 second improvement on yours and the run was a 21 second improvement on m old one and a 1:05 improvement on your 5.1+5.2+5.3! Here are the times:



And the updated google spreadsheet is at the same url.

I'll get the video loaded within half an hour and post the link in an edit.
JediTry
JediTry
Edit history:
JediTry: 2007-06-26 09:08:48 am
2007-06-26 09:08:05 am
Semi-retired FPS expert
Excellent work. I am a bit surprised though you only marginally improved the later bits. It's probably because you did the whole level in 1 segment. Re-watching my run it seems like there are so many bad places in it... Looking forward to your video.