paper mario TTYD 100%

2008-08-06 08:52:55 am

I am not a NERD or a GEEK I am a N33K

okay I do not know if i will get to do a run because of no recording equipment
but if you did a run with our route then that would be awesome i thought this thread would encourage someone to do this run

ZFG

2008-08-06 10:56:52 am

MrGrunz is a guay

Wait, so you don't need to get all shines/upgrade all partners in TTYD?

SmashKing/SK!Z$L3TZ

2008-08-06 11:27:26 am

I am not a NERD or a GEEK I am a N33K

no just badges and star pieces since you need them to get some badges.

Paused

Edit history:

Paused: 2008-08-08 05:58:48 am

2008-08-07 02:57:17 pm

Quote from ZFG:

Wait, so you don't need to get all shines TTYD?

If that is the case, this is one of the most ridiculous 100% run definitions I have heard.

Quote from Enhasa:

Quote from Infinite1up:

Then why aren't all the Zelda 100% runs 3 heart runs with all optional inventory items?

Actually I don't agree with it in Zelda either.

Really? Really?!
I simply can not understand this. What is 100% on SDA now? In 100% Zelda we are already skipping actually finishing the optional dungeons, and you want to skip heart pieces too?

100%? It is more just 'Somewhat intended route.'

Enhasa

2008-08-07 03:34:47 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I see a lot of confusion about this everywhere. 100% is not 100% of all things, it's 100% of some thing(s). Think about it, please.

Even if you had your way, you wouldn't be getting 100% of everything. You would already be making some decisions not to include things. Do you think every single enemy should be killed at least once? Do you think every pixel of land should be stepped on? Do you think the game clock should be maxed out? That would make for a great speedrun! If you disagree with maxing out game clock, then you also agree that it's 100% of some things, just not necessarily the ones you want.

Now let's think more in detail about which things. Do you know why the 100% category exists? In some games like Metroid, the game itself tracks the percentages. There is no debate there. But people would like to make similar runs for games that don't define 100%, so for SDA we have to come up with definitions. Ideally, the definition we use would make sense, i.e. something that perhaps the developers themselves would have chosen.

Think about 100% categories included with different games. For Metroid, it's 100% items collected. If Super Metroid didn't track itself, I guarantee people like you would say "all items, all map completed, saving the animals, etc etc." "But all items doesn't seem very complete! WAH WAH WAH" You can go down the line and look at the % definitions for all sorts of games and see that 100% is defined almost always as 100% of something. How many games would come down to a laundry list: all eggs, all bacon, all cheese, all onions, all peppers, sesame seed bun, etc. I feel like 2-3 items is as much as you should ever have for a game, which is a compromise, since honestly I feel 1 item is the correct number really.

Don't worry about heart pieces in Zelda btw. That was just a hypothetical, it's not going to change since it's well-established.

Anyway, stop being OCD ("omg i must do everything!") and just let it go. Some collect-em-up RPGs and such are just really not suited for 100%, and people should be happy that a 100% category is even allowed at all. Honestly, I'm not going to feel bad disallowing anything short of a game itself, since that means runs will still be on SDA, even if it's not exactly what you want to see. We're not going to reject 100% runs for games without % definitions though, because letting people have what they want is more important than us looking arbitrary and TG-like, which admittedly is what happens every time in this case.

I see a lot of confusion about this everywhere. 100% is not 100% of all things, it's 100% of some thing(s). Think about it, please.

Even if you had your way, you wouldn't be getting 100% of everything. You would already be making some decisions not to include things. Do you think every single enemy should be killed at least once? Do you think every pixel of land should be stepped on? Do you think the game clock should be maxed out? That would make for a great speedrun! If you disagree with maxing out game clock, then you also agree that it's 100% of some things, just not necessarily the ones you want.

Now let's think more in detail about which things. Do you know why the 100% category exists? In some games like Metroid, the game itself tracks the percentages. There is no debate there. But people would like to make similar runs for games that don't define 100%, so for SDA we have to come up with definitions. Ideally, the definition we use would make sense, i.e. something that perhaps the developers themselves would have chosen.

Think about 100% categories included with different games. For Metroid, it's 100% items collected. If Super Metroid didn't track itself, I guarantee people like you would say "all items, all map completed, saving the animals, etc etc." "But all items doesn't seem very complete! WAH WAH WAH" You can go down the line and look at the % definitions for all sorts of games and see that 100% is defined almost always as 100% of something. How many games would come down to a laundry list: all eggs, all bacon, all cheese, all onions, all peppers, sesame seed bun, etc. I feel like 2-3 items is as much as you should ever have for a game, which is a compromise, since honestly I feel 1 item is the correct number really.

Don't worry about heart pieces in Zelda btw. That was just a hypothetical, it's not going to change since it's well-established.

Anyway, stop being OCD ("omg i must do [i]everything[/i]!") and just let it go. Some collect-em-up RPGs and such are just really not suited for 100%, and people should be happy that a 100% category is even allowed at all. Honestly, I'm not going to feel bad disallowing anything short of a game itself, since that means runs will still be on SDA, even if it's not exactly what you want to see. We're not going to reject 100% runs for games without % definitions though, because letting people have what they want is more important than us looking arbitrary and TG-like, which admittedly is what happens every time in this case.

pyromaniac

2008-08-07 05:01:09 pm

hey hey hey!!

it reminds me of banjo kazooie, where you don't have to collect the mumbo tokens. they don't collect all heart pieces in the zelda ruN???????!!!

pyromaniac

2008-08-07 05:23:58 pm

hey hey hey!!

sorry for the double post, but i can't help feeling that the route for this game is going to be really easy.

SmashKing/SK!Z$L3TZ

2008-08-07 06:33:16 pm

I am not a NERD or a GEEK I am a N33K

that exactly what i think

pyromaniac

2008-08-07 06:57:56 pm

hey hey hey!!

it kind of makes me want to do this game instead =P. but i have to finish what i started, right?

Floogal

2008-08-07 11:55:10 pm

I really shouldn't be posting in this topic, as I've never played this game, but...

I can't believe that Shine Sprites (or whatever the things that upgrade your parters are called) are not necessary, but all badges are. If anything, it should be the badges that are optional.

There are 42 distinct Shine Sprites to be collected in this game, all of which are exactly enough to upgrade & power up all of your allies. If that's not a requirement for a 100% run, I don't know what is.

Meanwhile, unlike the N64 game, most badges in this game can be found and/or bought in unlimited quantities, and all of them can be sold. Saying that you should get at least 1 of each badge is as pointless as saying you must buy/find at least one of each armour/weapon/accessory in a standard RPG.

My definition of a 100% game is everything that is saved when you turn off your game. If it can't be checked by opening up a "completed" file, then it isn't a requirement for 100%. Really, Enhasa, are there any console games (except possibly exploration/civilzation-type games) that keep track of which pixels of ground you've stepped on?

Obviously, SDA tosses out some of the more pointless ones in the interest of speed -- unless you get a reward, who cares if you've opened every door in a game or talked to every NPC.

Some of the other things ignored are those that are just tedious, mechanical tasks to upgrade multiple times. This is usually maximum level (Paper Mario for the N64 is the only RPG where you can reach maximum level with a small amount of time spent grinding, which is the only reason I suggested it for that game's 100%).

But other things can be excluded -- the 100% SNES Zelda skips the bomb & arrow upgrades because "Radix doesn't bother with them". Forcing someone to get them in a run would entail running around for 30 minutes killing random enemies to get a bunch of rupees, then entering & exiting a room about 30 times. Boring.

In short, Enhasa is right that we need to think about what a game designer would give percentage completion for, and then cut out the useless, information stuff (maps, tattles, etc.), and then cut out the tedious, unimportant grinding upgrades.

I really shouldn't be posting in this topic, as I've never played this game, but...

I can't believe that Shine Sprites (or whatever the things that upgrade your parters are called) are not necessary, but all badges are.  If anything, it should be the badges that are optional.

There are 42 distinct Shine Sprites to be collected in this game, all of which are exactly enough to upgrade & power up all of your allies.  If that's not a requirement for a 100% run, I don't know what is.

Meanwhile, unlike the N64 game, most badges in this game can be found and/or bought in unlimited quantities, and all of them can be sold.  Saying that you should get at least 1 of each badge is as pointless as saying you must buy/find at least one of each armour/weapon/accessory in a standard RPG.

My definition of a 100% game is everything that is saved when you turn off your game.  If it can't be checked by opening up a "completed" file, then it isn't a requirement for 100%.  Really, Enhasa, are there any console games (except possibly exploration/civilzation-type games) that keep track of which pixels of ground you've stepped on?

Obviously, SDA tosses out some of the more pointless ones in the interest of speed -- unless you get a reward, who cares if you've opened every door in a game or talked to every NPC.

Some of the other things ignored are those that are just tedious, mechanical tasks to upgrade multiple times.  This is usually maximum level (Paper Mario for the N64 is the only RPG where you can reach maximum level with a small amount of time spent grinding, which is the only reason I suggested it for that game's 100%).

But other things can be excluded -- the 100% SNES Zelda skips the bomb & arrow upgrades because "Radix doesn't bother with them".  Forcing someone to get them in a run would entail running around for 30 minutes killing random enemies to get a bunch of rupees, then entering & exiting a room about 30 times.  Boring.

In short, Enhasa is right that we need to think about what a game designer would give percentage completion for, and then cut out the useless, information stuff (maps, tattles, etc.), and then cut out the tedious, unimportant grinding upgrades.

pyromaniac

2008-08-08 12:03:14 am

hey hey hey!!

so we should change the 100% definition or what? it really doesn't bother me much because im not running it. just don't yell at me when i say this, but i think it should be all shine sprites, all badges. dont yell plez!!!

Paused

Edit history:

Paused: 2008-08-08 05:57:56 am

2008-08-08 05:15:58 am

Quote from Enhasa:

Even if you had your way...

Do you think every pixel of land should be stepped on? Do you think the game clock should be maxed out? That would make for a great speedrun!

people like you would say... WAH WAH WAH"

Anyway, stop being OCD ("omg i must do everything!") and just let it go.

You know what? While I could discuss this, I really am not going to bother.

Your the main Admin here and your spewing crap like that?

LadyKrile

Edit history:

LadyKrile: 2008-08-09 03:00:40 pm

2008-08-09 02:36:37 pm

Quote from Floogal:

Meanwhile, unlike the N64 game, most badges in this game can be found and/or bought in unlimited quantities, and all of them can be sold. Saying that you should get at least 1 of each badge is as pointless as saying you must buy/find at least one of each armour/weapon/accessory in a standard RPG.

If that standard RPG has a record of every item that you've ever had in your inventory, then people would collect every item at least once and call it more complete than someone who didn't. (Not necessarily in a speedrun.)

PMTTYD has a list of all types of badges that you've ever collected, including ones that you've sold, in the "Journal" section in the menu. Also, sold badges remain in the badges shop, and you can buy them back for twice the selling price (or 999 coins if twice the selling price is more than 999).

The "Journal" section also has a Tattle list and a recipe list, as well as a total amount of each so you know when you have all of them.

----------

Summarizing what is recorded in the game (+ means likely, - means unlikely, ? means it depends):

+ Badges (85): recorded in "Journal" section. Requires most, but not all, Star Pieces, because of duplicate badges. Also requires the Pit of 100 Trials to be complete.
+ Partner ranks: shown when you select partners. Requires all 42 Shine Sprites, the Ms. Mowz trouble to be completed and the Up Arrow.
? Strange Sack: shown in the Key Items ("Important Things"). You pass right by it on floor 50 of the Pit of 100 Trials, but you don't have to pick it up.
? Pianta Parlor cards (4): shown in the Key Items ("Important Things"). Requires four different Troubles to be completed. Each one allows buying certain badges as many times as you want. However, all the badges unlocked by the Pianta Parlor cards have one copy that can be found elsewhere. (Note: One of the cards is picked up in the current speedrun, since it allows buying more Power Rush badges, which make later battles much faster due to extremely high attack. It would seem incomplete to collect one but not the other three in a 100% speedrun.)
- Star Pieces (100): recorded at the entrance to the Pit of 100 Trials. Since they don't appear in the inventory once they're spent, it looks like they're not required. (However, not requiring Star Pieces causes much more route planning than requiring them.)
- Tattles (124): recorded in Journal section, but most people don't want them, and their only effect is the HP meter.
- Recipes: recorded in Journal section, but otherwise boring and don't have an effect once you use the item.
- Troubles: recorded in the Trouble Center. Five of them have proof that you've completed them in your inventory: the one for Ms. Mowz and the 4 Pianta Parlor cards. The others do not have direct proof in the inventory. As far as I know, there is no reward for all of them. Zess T.'s trouble is needed to get most recipes, and removes a key item (the Cookbook) from the inventory, but has no other use.

----------

I now believe to make the PM1 and PMTTYD 100% definitions consistent: All badges, and all partner ranks.

[quote="Floogal"]
Meanwhile, unlike the N64 game, most badges in this game can be found and/or bought in unlimited quantities, and all of them can be sold.  Saying that you should get at least 1 of each badge is as pointless as saying you must buy/find at least one of each armour/weapon/accessory in a standard RPG.
[/quote]
If that standard RPG has a record of every item that you've ever had in your inventory, then people would collect every item at least once and call it more complete than someone who didn't. (Not necessarily in a speedrun.)

PMTTYD has a list of all types of badges that you've ever collected, including ones that you've sold, in the "Journal" section in the menu. Also, sold badges remain in the badges shop, and you can buy them back for twice the selling price (or 999 coins if twice the selling price is more than 999).

The "Journal" section also has a Tattle list and a recipe list, as well as a total amount of each so you know when you have all of them.

----------

Summarizing what is recorded in the game (+ means likely, - means unlikely, ? means it depends):

+ Badges (85): recorded in "Journal" section. Requires most, but not all, Star Pieces, because of duplicate badges. Also requires the Pit of 100 Trials to be complete.
+ Partner ranks: shown when you select partners. Requires all 42 Shine Sprites, the Ms. Mowz trouble to be completed and the Up Arrow.
? Strange Sack: shown in the Key Items ("Important Things"). You pass right by it on floor 50 of the Pit of 100 Trials, but you don't have to pick it up.
? Pianta Parlor cards (4): shown in the Key Items ("Important Things"). Requires four different Troubles to be completed. Each one allows buying certain badges as many times as you want. However, all the badges unlocked by the Pianta Parlor cards have one copy that can be found elsewhere. (Note: One of the cards is picked up in the current speedrun, since it allows buying more Power Rush badges, which make later battles much faster due to extremely high attack. It would seem incomplete to collect one but not the other three in a 100% speedrun.)
- Star Pieces (100): recorded at the entrance to the Pit of 100 Trials. Since they don't appear in the inventory once they're spent, it looks like they're not required. (However, not requiring Star Pieces causes much more route planning than requiring them.)
- Tattles (124): recorded in Journal section, but most people don't want them, and their only effect is the HP meter.
- Recipes: recorded in Journal section, but otherwise boring and don't have an effect once you use the item.
- Troubles: recorded in the Trouble Center. Five of them have proof that you've completed them in your inventory: the one for Ms. Mowz and the 4 Pianta Parlor cards. The others do not have direct proof in the inventory. As far as I know, there is no reward for all of them. Zess T.'s trouble is needed to get most recipes, and removes a key item (the Cookbook) from the inventory, but has no other use.

----------

I now believe to make the PM1 and PMTTYD 100% definitions consistent: All badges, and all partner ranks.

SmashKing/SK!Z$L3TZ

2008-08-09 03:27:57 pm

I am not a NERD or a GEEK I am a N33K

well all badges and star pieces is betterIMO and also Enhasa's

Enterim

2008-08-09 06:56:56 pm

Aren't all star pieces required to GET all badges?

Anyway, is there even a 100% RPG run on the site yet or would this/PM1 be the first?

GUCK SDA FANS!!!!

2008-08-09 09:09:29 pm

Quote from Enterim:

Anyway, is there even a 100% RPG run on the site yet or would this/PM1 be the first?

http://speeddemosarchive.com/ChronoTrigger.html#100p

Also... WAH WAH WAH!

And yes G=F, at least as far as user names go... and after a bottle of wine or 3... But who cares?! Im not a Admin, so ridicule me!

pyromaniac

2008-08-13 01:41:32 pm

hey hey hey!!

you still doin this run smashking?

SmashKing/SK!Z$L3TZ

2008-08-13 02:53:50 pm

I am not a NERD or a GEEK I am a N33K

I am making the route and stuff like that but i do not have recording equipment yet

I amk doing a 100% Playthrough right now

but if anyone wants to run this game use the Route but give me and whoever else credit

Reagle

2008-08-14 12:27:39 pm

All badges, all shine sprites, all star pieces. You don't need to use all the shine sprites or star pieces, they just need to be collected.

pyromaniac1

2008-08-14 03:03:25 pm

do you have the route posted somewhere so far?

SmashKing/SK!Z$L3TZ

2008-08-15 08:41:27 am

I am not a NERD or a GEEK I am a N33K

Quote from Reagle:

All badges, all shine sprites, all star pieces. You don't need to use all the shine sprites or star pieces, they just need to be collected.

no that is not true Allbadges all star piececs

SmashKing/SK!Z$L3TZ

2008-08-15 08:44:59 am

I am not a NERD or a GEEK I am a N33K

Quote from pyromaniac1:

do you have the route posted somewhere so far?

only here so far My school year starts in 5-6 days so I do not have much time and I have to practice the Clarinet. I will get the route done ASAP

Reagle

2008-08-15 12:38:57 pm

Quote from SmashKing:

Quote from Reagle:

All badges, all shine sprites, all star pieces. You don't need to use all the shine sprites or star pieces, they just need to be collected.

no that is not true Allbadges all star piececs

What is not true? I was saying what I think should be the requirements.

LordLocke

2008-08-15 04:46:09 pm

Yes, it's a ninja riding an invisible jet

A 100% run without all Shine Sprites? That's about as 100% as lowfat milk. If there's any collectible item in PM:TTYD which MUST be a requirement for 100%, I'd assume it'd be the Sprites, considering the fact that they're tracked on the main menu AND burning them has a practical effect of improvement for your team. Badges are basically just equipment now, with a fair number of them infinitely obtainable from stores/gambling, and Star Pieces are only kept track of in the menu if you don't spend any and are otherwise just a secondary, albut limited form of currency. Saying Star Pieces are important for 100% and that Shine Sprites are optional just makes no sense, IMO.

Is there a good reason for NOT making Shine Sprites part of the 100%, other then you just don't want to? I'd understand if there are some really out-of-the-way Sprites that would wind up adding another half-hour or more total to the run, but from what I remember the worst of them are only a couple minutes off the path or in places in old zones you'd have to revisit eventually ANYWAYS with new abilities to get all the Star Pieces. It just comes off as... arbitrary. Why even bother with a 100% run if you're not going to get 100% of what's actually important in the game?

A 100% run without all Shine Sprites?  That's about as 100% as lowfat milk.  If there's any collectible item in PM:TTYD which MUST be a requirement for 100%, I'd assume it'd be the Sprites, considering the fact that they're tracked on the main menu AND burning them has a practical effect of improvement for your team.  Badges are basically just equipment now, with a fair number of them infinitely obtainable from stores/gambling, and Star Pieces are only kept track of in the menu if you don't spend any and are otherwise just a secondary, albut limited form of currency.  Saying Star Pieces are important for 100% and that Shine Sprites are optional just makes no sense, IMO.

Is there a good reason for NOT making Shine Sprites part of the 100%, other then you just don't want to?  I'd understand if there are some really out-of-the-way Sprites that would wind up adding another half-hour or more total to the run, but from what I remember the worst of them are only a couple minutes off the path or in places in old zones you'd have to revisit eventually ANYWAYS with new abilities to get all the Star Pieces.  It just comes off as... arbitrary.  Why even bother with a 100% run if you're not going to get 100% of what's actually important in the game?

Jacob91

2008-08-16 04:53:33 pm

Quote from LordLocke:

A 100% run without all Shine Sprites? That's about as 100% as lowfat milk. If there's any collectible item in PM:TTYD which MUST be a requirement for 100%, I'd assume it'd be the Sprites, considering the fact that they're tracked on the main menu AND burning them has a practical effect of improvement for your team. Badges are basically just equipment now, with a fair number of them infinitely obtainable from stores/gambling, and Star Pieces are only kept track of in the menu if you don't spend any and are otherwise just a secondary, albut limited form of currency. Saying Star Pieces are important for 100% and that Shine Sprites are optional just makes no sense, IMO.

Is there a good reason for NOT making Shine Sprites part of the 100%, other then you just don't want to? I'd understand if there are some really out-of-the-way Sprites that would wind up adding another half-hour or more total to the run, but from what I remember the worst of them are only a couple minutes off the path or in places in old zones you'd have to revisit eventually ANYWAYS with new abilities to get all the Star Pieces. It just comes off as... arbitrary. Why even bother with a 100% run if you're not going to get 100% of what's actually important in the game?

Exactly my sentiments. We cannot redefine 100% because of our lax, although, it would be hypocritical of me to say that I don't believe getting to level 99 would be necessary for this run. It is, without a doubt, more consuming by itself than the rest of the run would be put together.

If a 100% run of pokemon means capturing each individual poke and not leveling each one up to level 100 I don't see this as much different.

[quote="LordLocke"]
A 100% run without all Shine Sprites?  That's about as 100% as lowfat milk.  If there's any collectible item in PM:TTYD which MUST be a requirement for 100%, I'd assume it'd be the Sprites, considering the fact that they're tracked on the main menu AND burning them has a practical effect of improvement for your team.  Badges are basically just equipment now, with a fair number of them infinitely obtainable from stores/gambling, and Star Pieces are only kept track of in the menu if you don't spend any and are otherwise just a secondary, albut limited form of currency.  Saying Star Pieces are important for 100% and that Shine Sprites are optional just makes no sense, IMO.

Is there a good reason for NOT making Shine Sprites part of the 100%, other then you just don't want to?  I'd understand if there are some really out-of-the-way Sprites that would wind up adding another half-hour or more total to the run, but from what I remember the worst of them are only a couple minutes off the path or in places in old zones you'd have to revisit eventually ANYWAYS with new abilities to get all the Star Pieces.  It just comes off as... arbitrary.  Why even bother with a 100% run if you're not going to get 100% of what's actually important in the game?
[/quote]

Exactly my sentiments. We cannot redefine 100% because of our lax, although, it would be hypocritical of me to say that I don't believe getting to level 99 would be necessary for this run. It is, without a doubt, more consuming by itself than the rest of the run would be put together.

If a 100% run of pokemon means capturing each individual poke and not leveling each one up to level 100 I don't see this as much different.