NInja Gaiden 2 for Xbox Speedrun

2011-09-22 08:34:41 pm

The mind is the one true weapon!

Hello, my name is Lance. My humblest apologies if this is the wrong place to post this proposal. Before I begin, I would like to say that I love SDA a lot. Whenever I am in need of entertainment, I just watch random speedruns.I have been scripting my Ninja Gaiden Speedrun for a week now and I have prepared myself to do this on the Hardest Difficulty. I need help in understanding how SDA will accept my videos and track my time.

1. Should I do a savepoint/load file time comparison?
2 Will the in-game recording be accepted aka Ninja Cinema. The Ninja Cinema recording does show how long the clip will be. Ninja Cinema does not record lag and also doesn't show it during playback). I would really like it if this option was favored.
3. Real time. This will be terrible, since the game tends to slow down and lag.
4. Time it according to the time that I receive at the end of the game?

Also, will I be allowed to segment my vids into two parts? I need to use the save point before any boss, because sometimes the speedkill time it's really luck dependant

The cause for my concerns lies in the fact that with this game, as enemy quantities onscreen grow, the game will start slowing down.

For this run I will use the Invincibilty glitch during certain parts, since it helps with running past terrible enemies, as well as running in water. I will use a glitch to go out of bounds twice in the game and for bosses I will use loops whenever possible. Other than this, I will rely on pure skill and I don't use any cheating device or action replay.

I look forward to your responses and your permission to start this run.

Thread title:

Hello, my name is Lance. My humblest apologies if this is the wrong place to post this proposal. Before I begin, I would like to say that I love SDA a lot. Whenever I am in need of entertainment, I just watch random speedruns.I have been scripting my Ninja Gaiden Speedrun for a week now and I have prepared myself to do this on the Hardest Difficulty. I need help in understanding how SDA will accept my videos and track my time.

1. Should I do a savepoint/load file time comparison? 
2 Will the in-game recording be accepted aka Ninja Cinema. The Ninja Cinema recording does show how long the clip will be. Ninja Cinema does not record lag and also doesn't show it during playback). I would really like it if this option was favored.
3. Real time. This will be terrible, since the game tends to slow down and lag.
4. Time it according to the time that I receive at the end of the game?

Also, will I be allowed to segment my vids into two parts? I need to use the save point before any boss, because sometimes the speedkill time it's really luck dependant

The cause for my concerns lies in the fact that with this game, as enemy quantities onscreen grow, the game will start slowing down.

For this run I will use the Invincibilty glitch during certain parts, since it helps with running past terrible enemies, as well as running in water. I will use a glitch to go out of bounds twice in the game and for bosses I will use loops whenever possible. Other than this, I will rely on pure skill and I don't use any cheating device or action replay.

I look forward to your responses and your permission to start this run.

MAS8705

Edit history:

MAS8705: 2011-09-22 09:02:01 pm

2011-09-22 08:57:23 pm

SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)

Hello Lance3375 and welcome to Speed Demos Archive.

While I'm not really an SDA pro yet, I'll be happy to try and answer some of your questions, and hopefully others will be happy to share their wisdom as well... As for posting topics, it is ok to post here since you have just started, but in the future, if you are going to post a topic on a new game, be sure to post it under "Newer Consoles" or "Older Consoles"...

1. If there is a difference between the times of each save point and load time, then it probably won't hurt to do it so that it can help track the times
2. There have been several runs on SDA that actually play off the clips of the "replay" in order for it to be clean... Granted though if you do replay, your run might be considered for just ILs instead of being a playthrough; I don't recall if it can completely track progress from start to finish in that sense, but then I haven't played Ninja Gaiden 2 for some time now... I should try to rent it sometime...
3 + 4) I believe both of these are the same question, so I'll just group them together... Anyway, for some games, the times might be adjusted depending on situations (super game boy) but if the game lags, all you can do is work around it, it won't really affect the final time since anyone else who will speed run the game will run into the same problems... as for timing it accordingly, Remember: it begins when you first move your character and ends when you hit your final strike (or trigger the last cutscene, depending on the game again)... In most cases, if the game tells you the final time, that is usually what is used, otherwise it would be timed as such...

For segments, it is up to you with how it will be segmented... Since it doesn't look like you are going to do a single segment (not going to blame you, Ninja Gaiden would be a very hard game to do in one sitting, especially if you are going to do the hardest difficultly as well) you can do as many segments as you feel you need... Just remember that if you are going to do segments, that they need to be as clean as possible, otherwise it might come back to haunt you...

As for glitches, if you know them, don't be afraid to exploit them... If it helps make the game faster to get through, do it...

Overall, I wish you the best of luck in your run attempt, you will need it for sure...

Hello Lance3375 and welcome to Speed Demos Archive.

While I'm not really an SDA pro yet, I'll be happy to try and answer some of your questions, and hopefully others will be happy to share their wisdom as well...  As for posting topics, it is ok to post here since you have just started, but in the future, if you are going to post a topic on a new game, be sure to post it under "Newer Consoles" or "Older Consoles"...

1. If there is a difference between the times of each save point and load time, then it probably won't hurt to do it so that it can help track the times
2. There have been several runs on SDA that actually play off the clips of the "replay" in order for it to be clean...  Granted though if you do replay, your run might be considered for just ILs instead of being a playthrough; I don't recall if it can completely track progress from start to finish in that sense, but then I haven't played Ninja Gaiden 2 for some time now...  I should try to rent it sometime...
3 + 4)  I believe both of these are the same question, so I'll just group them together...  Anyway, for some games, the times might be adjusted depending on situations (super game boy) but if the game lags, all you can do is work around it, it won't really affect the final time since anyone else who will speed run the game will run into the same problems...  as for timing it accordingly, Remember: it begins when you first move your character and ends when you hit your final strike (or trigger the last cutscene, depending on the game again)...  In most cases, if the game tells you the final time, that is usually what is used, otherwise it would be timed as such...

For segments, it is up to you with how it will be segmented...  Since it doesn't look like you are going to do a single segment (not going to blame you, Ninja Gaiden would be a very hard game to do in one sitting, especially if you are going to do the hardest difficultly as well) you can do as many segments as you feel you need...  Just remember that if you are going to do segments, that they need to be as clean as possible, otherwise it might come back to haunt you...

As for glitches, if you know them, don't be afraid to exploit them...  If it helps make the game faster to get through, do it...

Overall, I wish you the best of luck in your run attempt, you will need it for sure...

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-09-23 08:02:20 am

2011-09-23 08:02:00 am

Quote from MAS8705:

While I'm not really an SDA pro yet, I'll be happy to try and answer some of your questions, and hopefully others will be happy to share their wisdom as well... As for posting topics, it is ok to post here since you have just started, but in the future, if you are going to post a topic on a new game, be sure to post it under "Newer Consoles" or "Older Consoles"...

Actually, since this post is mainly a question about rules on timing and recording, I'd say SDA Discussion is probably the right place. Once the rules queries are answered, actual discussion about the run should go in a new thread in the appropriate board, or the mods can move this thread there if they decide that's neater.

Lance, to attempt to answer your question: I haven't played the particular game you're planning on running, but in general, if the game has an in-game timer, then we always use the in-game timer to time runs unless it is totally broken to the point that it can't be sensibly used. You mention that the game gives you a time at the end of the game; unless this time is broken in some way (like the timer randomly speeds up or slows down for no reason, or it gets reset to zero when you save and load, or something stupid like that), then we'll use it, and you'll have to keep in mind any relevant properties of the timer (like whether it slows down or not when the game lags) and play in a way designed to minimise the time on the timer, rather than minimising the time in real-time (if there is a difference).

As such, I would assume that the answer to your question is option 4. You'd be wise to check whether the timer works properly before starting attempts on your run, however (if nobody has already checked).

Your question about Ninja Cinema is interesting. Recording runs using in-game recording features is generally allowed; however, I think the case of an in-game recorder which doesn't record lag has never come up in the past. Flip or Mike (rules admins) will therefore have to give a ruling on this. My guess is that if the in-game time doesn't factor out lag in the same way that Ninja Cinema does, then it almost certainly won't be allowed in this case (since the lag, and choosing tactics to avoid or minimise it, would be an important aspect of the run, affecting your time, and wouldn't be visible in the Ninja Cinema capture); if the timer does factor out the lag, then recording using Ninja Cinema would probably be okay (though you may wish to bear in mind that while some people will probably prefer the smoother video produced using Ninja Cinema, others will probably prefer the 'exactly-as-it-happened' video showing the lag exactly as you saw it when you played).

As for segments: we accept both single-segment and segmented runs here, as separate categories. So yes, segmenting is fine. Bear in mind that if you segment at all, then your run is considered a 'segmented' run and can be beaten by any faster segmented run, even if the faster run uses more segments than you did. So if you're going to segment, the usual advice is to segment anywhere that segmenting helps you save time, even if the savings are small.

As for glitches: if time-saving glitches exist, you should use them.

Hopefully that's helpful.

[quote="MAS8705"]While I'm not really an SDA pro yet, I'll be happy to try and answer some of your questions, and hopefully others will be happy to share their wisdom as well...  As for posting topics, it is ok to post here since you have just started, but in the future, if you are going to post a topic on a new game, be sure to post it under "Newer Consoles" or "Older Consoles"...[/quote]

Actually, since this post is mainly a question about rules on timing and recording, I'd say SDA Discussion is probably the right place. Once the rules queries are answered, actual discussion about the run should go in a new thread in the appropriate board, or the mods can move this thread there if they decide that's neater.

Lance, to attempt to answer your question: I haven't played the particular game you're planning on running, but in general, if the game has an in-game timer, then we always use the in-game timer to time runs unless it is totally broken to the point that it can't be sensibly used. You mention that the game gives you a time at the end of the game; unless this time is broken in some way (like the timer randomly speeds up or slows down for no reason, or it gets reset to zero when you save and load, or something stupid like that), then we'll use it, and you'll have to keep in mind any relevant properties of the timer (like whether it slows down or not when the game lags) and play in a way designed to minimise the time on the timer, rather than minimising the time in real-time (if there is a difference).

As such, I would assume that the answer to your question is option 4. You'd be wise to check whether the timer works properly before starting attempts on your run, however (if nobody has already checked).

Your question about Ninja Cinema is interesting. Recording runs using in-game recording features is generally allowed; however, I think the case of an in-game recorder which doesn't record lag has never come up in the past. Flip or Mike (rules admins) will therefore have to give a ruling on this. My guess is that if the in-game time [i]doesn't[/i] factor out lag in the same way that Ninja Cinema does, then it almost certainly won't be allowed in this case (since the lag, and choosing tactics to avoid or minimise it, would be an important aspect of the run, affecting your time, and wouldn't be visible in the Ninja Cinema capture); if the timer [i]does[/i] factor out the lag, then recording using Ninja Cinema would probably be okay (though you may wish to bear in mind that while some people will probably prefer the smoother video produced using Ninja Cinema, others will probably prefer the 'exactly-as-it-happened' video showing the lag exactly as you saw it when you played).

As for segments: we accept both single-segment and segmented runs here, as separate categories. So yes, segmenting is fine. Bear in mind that if you segment at all, then your run is considered a 'segmented' run and can be beaten by any faster segmented run, even if the faster run uses more segments than you did. So if you're going to segment, the usual advice is to segment anywhere that segmenting helps you save time, even if the savings are small.

As for glitches: if time-saving glitches exist, you should use them.

Hopefully that's helpful.

Lance3375

2011-09-25 09:26:35 am

The mind is the one true weapon!

Regarding the Ninja Cinema: It does NOT show footage of me going in my item inventory, shop or start menu. It also doesn't show what it looks like when I am scrolling for a weapon. I will give an example, assuming you or anyone else who reads this has never played the game.

There are 8 weapons. When I press up on the D-pad, a small menu shows up. I can then scroll all the way to the left or right and this might take me 10 seconds, and then I exit the "weapon select menu". The game then takes a couple seconds to load itself. If I showed you the NINJA CINEMA of this, you would just see me instantly switch weapon. Same thing if I go into the shop or start menu. In my opinion, I find this to be the cleanest way to present the footage. My minor issue is in the fact that I must adhere and satisfy the conditions of SDA, so that is why I am being careful.

I know that some people would like the "see it as it happens" footage. But really, there is nothing interesting about seeing my game lag, or as I go in my inventory to switch spells, use items or swap weapons.

There will also be some moments where I will trigger enemy spawns and go back to the save point, and restart the game. This will despawn enemies. In "see it as it happens"footage, you will see me actually quitting the game. In the Ninja Cinema (in game recording) it will actually stop. I will make special note of this.

The ONLY advantage I see in the "See It As It Happens" footage is that at the end of the Chapter, the game gives me a total time. In the Ninja Cinema, it doesn't. May I just add the time of the Ninja Cinemas?

Lastly, I would like to apologize for being so picky and detailed. I want to submit a high quality run and I don't want it to be rejected due to some technicality. Thank you all in advance for your patience, and I will officially commence my run.

Regarding the Ninja Cinema: It does NOT show footage of me going in my item inventory, shop or start menu. It also doesn't show what it looks like when I am scrolling for a weapon. I will give an example, assuming you or anyone else who reads this has never played the game.

There are 8 weapons. When I press up on the D-pad, a small menu shows up. I can then scroll all the way to the left or right and this might take me 10 seconds, and then I exit the "weapon select menu". The game then takes a couple seconds to load itself.  If I showed you the NINJA CINEMA of this, you would just see me instantly switch weapon. Same thing if I go into the shop or start menu. In my opinion, I find this to be the cleanest way to present the footage. My minor issue is in the fact that I must adhere and satisfy the conditions of SDA, so that is why I am being careful.

I know that some people would like the "see it as it happens" footage. But really, there is nothing interesting about seeing my game lag, or as I go in my inventory to switch spells, use items or swap weapons.

There will also be some moments where I will trigger enemy spawns and go back to the save point, and restart the game. This will despawn enemies. In "see it as it happens"footage, you will see me actually quitting the game. In the Ninja Cinema (in game recording) it will actually stop. I will make special note of this.

The ONLY advantage I see in the "See It As It Happens" footage is that at the end of the Chapter, the game gives me a total time. In the Ninja Cinema, it doesn't.  May I just add the time of the Ninja Cinemas?

Lastly, I would like to apologize for being so picky and detailed. I want to submit a high quality run and I don't want it to be rejected due to some technicality. Thank you all in advance for your patience, and I will officially commence my run.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-09-25 09:51:45 am

2011-09-25 09:50:40 am

I think Flip (current main rules admin) will ultimately have to weigh in on whether Ninja Cinema would be allowed or not, since as far as I know (and I may be wrong), nobody has ever asked about anything similar to it before.

I basically have one question remaining that I would want answered before ruling on this, if I were Flip. That question is: does the (real-time) time of Ninja Cinema recordings always match up exactly with the times given on the in-game timer? If it doesn't, then really we end up just taking your word for what the final times were which isn't really a satisfactory situation, or we have to time by manually timing the Ninja Cinema recording and therefore have a timing system which matches neither the in-game timer nor how long it took you to beat the levels in real-time - which is an ugly system.

As long as the Ninja Cinema recording times match the in-game timer times, personally I'd be okay with you using Ninja Cinema. Otherwise, I don't think we could allow that. But it's Flip's decision.

I think Flip (current main rules admin) will ultimately have to weigh in on whether Ninja Cinema would be allowed or not, since as far as I know (and I may be wrong), nobody has ever asked about anything similar to it before.

I basically have one question remaining that I would want answered before ruling on this, if I were Flip. That question is: does the (real-time) time of Ninja Cinema recordings always match up exactly with the times given on the in-game timer? If it doesn't, then really we end up just taking your word for what the final times were which isn't really a satisfactory situation, or we have to time by manually timing the Ninja Cinema recording and therefore have a timing system which matches neither the in-game timer nor how long it took you to beat the levels in real-time - which is an ugly system.

As long as the Ninja Cinema recording times match the in-game timer times, personally I'd be okay with you using Ninja Cinema. Otherwise, I don't think we could allow that. But it's Flip's decision.

Blazier

Edit history:

Blazier: 2011-09-27 02:45:24 am

2011-09-27 02:44:40 am

Agreed. It will be impossible to match up times between in-game and Ninja Cinema if the normal in-game timer factors anything in that the Ninja Cinema factors out. I'd rather see it in real-time anyways...

Lance3375

2011-09-28 10:35:49 pm

Understood, I guess I will have to redo my first chapter then.

I will experiment with Chapter 10, which can lag a lot. Real time footage of this might be 20 minutes long, while In-game Results screen could potentially be 17 minutes long. If and only if I check the Ninja Cinema and it shows the same exact time as the results screen, will I go ahead and do all of my runs with the Ninja Cinema.

One thing that I did test out is that the Ninja Cinema does NOT count time that I spend in the Start Menu or Item Menu or Shop. I recorded a 1 minute clip and spent 5 minutes in the Start menu and 3 in the Item Menu. As well as 2 in the Shop. The final result is a Ninja Cinema clip that still lasts 1 minute. If the End-game Results screen doesn't factor in the "Menu's" time, then I should be clear to go.

Ugh...all this back and forth is causing me minor stresses. So, everyone accept it if I did this real time "as it happens" and used the End-Game Results time? Then agreed. I will redo my first chapter then. Thank you all once again for responding and being so friendly about it! You guys rock!

Understood, I guess I will have to redo my first chapter then.

I will experiment with Chapter 10, which can lag a lot. Real time footage of this might be 20 minutes long, while In-game Results screen could potentially be 17 minutes long. If and only if I check the Ninja Cinema and it shows the same exact time as the results screen, will I go ahead and do all of my runs with the Ninja Cinema.

One thing that I did test out is that the Ninja Cinema does NOT count time that I spend in the Start Menu or Item Menu or Shop. I recorded a 1 minute clip and spent 5 minutes in the Start menu and 3 in the Item Menu. As well as 2 in the Shop. The final result is a Ninja Cinema clip that still lasts 1 minute. If the End-game Results screen doesn't factor in the "Menu's" time, then I should be clear to go.

Ugh...all this back and forth is causing me minor stresses. So, everyone accept it if I did this real time "as it happens" and used the End-Game Results time? Then agreed. I will redo my first chapter then. Thank you all once again for responding and being so friendly about it! You guys rock!

Ylva

Edit history:

Ylva: 2011-09-30 08:25:19 am

Ylva: 2011-09-30 08:25:09 am

Ylva: 2011-09-30 08:24:56 am

Ylva: 2011-09-30 08:24:40 am

2011-09-30 07:10:20 am

Best of luck to you, Lance!

Quote from Lance3375:

Ninja Cinema does not record lag and also doesn't show it during playback. I would really like it if this option was favored.

I'm sorry, aren't you mistaken? Ninja Cinema does record the game slowing down and plays it back just at the same frame rate as it was while recording.

Edit: Also, I have a couple of questions:

1. Are you starting a new game with Dragon Sword only, or a new game+ with all the weapons at level 1?
2. How are you planning to loop particular bosses? Considering that, unlike Sigma 2, it's hard to loop them here if you have not stunned them first.

Lance3375

2011-09-30 09:17:23 pm

The mind is the one true weapon!

New Game+ with 10 Ninpo, All weapons and Spells Maxed, 700K in Essence to spend and I will have all items at the beginning of the game since I carry them all over from the "previous" boss fight.

I will loop them the way that is possible. I don't really understand the question. I can kill Alexei, Volf and other minibosses very quickly. Zedonius, Elizebet and Dagra Dai are my only headaches. I plan on just resetting a lot, so definitely I will have a savepoint before these bosses.

Zedonius, I will have to hope that he doesn't go airborne. I will fight him the legit way, while using Phoenix ninpo. It adds damage and also hitstuns him.
I have it all figured out, but the execution is what is going to kill me.

Lance3375

2011-11-27 10:45:11 am

I am taking a year break from this game...

My speedrun. It's deleted. If I ever decide to do this again I will be sure to check with you guys, but for now I withdraw this proposal. Now I must go and bash my skull on wall..

Lance3375

2012-06-10 06:11:19 pm

Time to get back at this again! I am starting dig out old tactics and I really miss this game. SDA, I am back!

Lance3375

2012-06-10 06:26:53 pm

The mind is the one true weapon!

Because I need to start all over, since I lost my save file, it will take me a while to get back to ny NG+ file, but other than that, I am hyped up. Especially since NG3 was such a dissapointment. I will notify SDA once I get my first real vid!

ozzy88

2012-06-10 11:17:26 pm

Can't wait. Played this game a lot...like too much. But hardest difficulty destroyed me in chapter 2 because it's so long to that first savepoint. Videos of this would be great!