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OLV
I would post a twitch vod of AJ's and my last race, but Twitch is weird about vods and music, now.  At any rate, let it suffice to say that MotN is officially broken.  The past two times I cleared level 10 the game crashed, corrupted my save file, and ate all my computer's visual memory so that I had to do a hard-reset and pull the plug.  GG, MotN.  GG.
Edit history:
Fuzin: 2015-02-18 07:34:29 am
Fuzin: 2015-02-18 02:30:28 am
Indian Ocean bro!
New PB, very bad but I uploaded it because it's maybe more interesting to see since I am not talking with friends but listening to music.

And considering the discussion, I think that the lvl's are charging by parts because my previous computer was sometimes dying when I entered in some delimited location in a level and not always in the beginning or in the end of the level



Rainbow splits!!!
Edit history:
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:27:44 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:27:30 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:27:04 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:26:32 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:26:16 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:23:39 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:22:48 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:20:51 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:19:43 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:19:23 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:19:02 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-02-18 08:18:38 pm
I just skipped through your run quickly to check out various interesting parts of the category, and made a few notes below (some of these don't save much time, but are nice to do). You seem confident with the route, so that is good. Most of your time is lost to just generally being not comfortable with moving quickly (the kind of muscle memory I was talking about in the last post). Your run is ~7 minutes slower than mine right now, and you probably have lost ~2 minutes to deaths, which means you have ~5 minutes of execution to improve on. Because of this, every run you do should be getting faster as your execution improves, and by the time you get 39:xx, you should start to feel a lot more confident in general.

I have had to create manual links, because embedding a video doesn't work for links to specific points in the video. Just click each link and it will automatically go to the time in the video that I'm talking about.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
Not really huge, but you can Serenity accross here.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
If your Serenity comes up before you get the bat glide grab like this part of your run (I know it's a little tricky), you can just Serenity onto the hooks. The vent above has a checkpoint so you can just reset to get your Serenity back for the next part.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
Is there a reason you don't try the slide here? There is a checkpoint there (the checkpoint is actually required to do it) so you can practice over and over, should only take a couple of minutes to get it every time. That is a lot of free time you are giving up. It is very easy to do, just watch my controller inputs (basically go to 'reset at checkpoint' and spam jump and let go of right before you hit the ground). Make sure the checkpoint has triggered (when you see the dragon icon in the bottom right corner) else you will reset back before killing Karajan.
http://www.twitch.tv/chazneysr/c/2882337?t=23m16s

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
Just a small tip, since we use reset at checkpoint earlier in the level to not talk to Dosan and acquired all of the stuff from the level, if you spam B here you can actually skip the first cutscene and go straight to the end cutscene. Only saves a second or 2 but it is much easier then skipping 2 cutscenes.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
Throw this dart a little further back, you get a bit close to the light both times, you can jump cancel the door opening with a straight up jump so you don't fly forwards after the door opens. Just makes this part easier.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
You can stop here when the timer reaches ~5 seconds, you wait till 0 seconds which is exactly when the door opens.
Indian Ocean bro!
Thank you for all your advice Chazney, I'll be training hard now, I want to get better! And if some of you want to see other vidéos don't hesitate to subscribe in Youtube, I'll upload every video of runs where I beat my PB but I'll post it here only when it'll be much better.
Indian Ocean bro!
Hey everyone, I have a question, when I take a look on Chazney's videos in NG+, it seems that it's much less blurred than mine, why is that? My videos are so blur that most of the people I know can't look at it... So if you have a solution it'll be great!
OLV
What are you using to stream/record?
Edit history:
ChazneySR: 2015-03-10 12:15:34 pm
My OBS settings are the following:



The main setting that affects 'blurriness' when streaming is the bitrate on the encoding tab. The higher it is, the better the stream looks with moving images (which is very common in speed running obviously). I find 3000kbps works nicely for 720p. If you can stream at 1080p, I would probably go higher, somewhere between 4000-5000kbps. These values require upload. I would never go over 75% of your upload speed. For example, if your upload speed is 3mbps, don't go over 2000kbps as your bitrate.

For offline recording I record with Fraps using the highest settings (60FPS and full-size, though I think 30FPS would be fine too if your PC can't handle 60FPS) and then encode the segments using Anri-chan 3.3, which you can find at https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Anri-chan. Anri-chan is very easy to use, though it may seem intimidating at first.
Indian Ocean bro!
I tried it but I'm not so sure that we talk about the same thing. In NG+ the screen is very blur behind you but in your vidéo it seems ok so I wanted to know if it's normal.
Edit history:
ChazneySR: 2015-03-12 07:08:04 am
ChazneySR: 2015-03-12 07:07:26 am
ChazneySR: 2015-03-12 07:06:35 am
ChazneySR: 2015-03-12 07:04:55 am
ChazneySR: 2015-03-12 07:04:26 am
It's probably this option (the one labelled 'Blur', which I have turned off), but I don't have an NG+ save on Steam to test it. In fact, all 3 options in the bottom right are graphics options (displacement, bloom and blur), and I have them all turned off.

Edit history:
Fuzin: 2015-03-17 05:12:54 am
Indian Ocean bro!
Here is my last run, it's not so bad so I upload it but there's a lot more time to save. If you see some things I could do to improve, please share =)

Edit history:
ChazneySR: 2015-03-18 04:44:44 pm
ChazneySR: 2015-03-18 04:44:42 pm
On a whole, you look like you have improved a lot. There isn't really much to improve route wise, most of the time is lost through general mistakes. If you fix those mistakes, you will likely get something like 37:00 (perhaps even WR, since my WR has several big mistakes). You can gain the rest of the time through improving execution fluidity (trying to focus less, speed sliding more, etc.), but I wouldn't worry about that for now. The time stamps below are a few things to look out for in future runs. There are more things I left off, but they are less significant. To be fair, everything below except the one about the level 9 dojo aren't huge time savers, but it's something at least.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
Reset at checkpoint here, you can Serenity across which saves a couple of seconds. In the next room you can reset at the door and Serenty past the lasers. See what I do here: http://www.twitch.tv/chazneysr/c/2882337?t=2m51s. Notice that I Serenity onto the grate and destroy the lasers. I do this if I feel like I can't get accross the room fast enough before the laser kills me, and in this case destroying the power is faster than waiting for the laser to come down (not by much, but still).

If the first laser in the next room is to the right of the door as you are heading towards it, there is no reason to reset either, you can just use the first door. Saves doing a reset and waiting for Serenity to finish. If you used Serenity in your run, you would have actually been able to use the door. Here is a picture showing what I mean:


YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
Use Serenity accross here. There is a checkpoint once you climb up to reset Serenity. You can see me do it in my run: http://www.twitch.tv/chazneysr/c/2882337?t=4m28s. Also, as a general rule of thumb, you want to stay on the ground if you have the option to. The only real exception is if you can grapple your way across the room. Here the grapple isn't worth it because of Serenity.

Also, use the checkpoints on the next part. They give you 2 checkpoints right next to each other which gives you nice Serenity options. Again, you can see in my run how I use them.


YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
If you aren't confident throwing backwards darts, it's better to focus to destroy the power things. Throwing backwards darts is only a little bit faster, but if you move backwards while trying to throw a backwards dart, it is slower than focusing. You throw a backwards dart by pressing the item button, then pressing backwards after a short delay. If you press backwards too early you move backwards, too late and the dart doesn't go backwards. It generally isn't worth doing until you can do it confidently.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
If you want more consistency here, you can focus and aim the bugs at the guy. Focusing won't lose you more than a second. I don't use focus because I practiced it a bunch and I'm pretty confident in hitting the bugs correctly every time.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
You got full control here and didn't use it well! This is the best thing that can happen here, but you must use your speed sliding. You can gain a lot of time by speed sliding this entire section if you get full control.

YouTube Time Link (Embedded videos don't allow for time links)
If you wonder why I do this, It feels like it makes the door open faster. Never timed it though.
We require more minerals
http://www.twitch.tv/chazneysr/c/2882337?t=3m37s

I was checking out the current No-OoB run record because I was thinking of getting back into this category when I saw this.

How is this considered not out of bounds? You're on the very right most edge of the map and circumvent an item put in place by the developers on several maps to prevent you from being able to continue upwards along a wall.

Yes, this one was coded poorly and allows you to go around it, but in almost every single other instance of the game where this appears on the map, there's a death plane. It seems strange that the category is about staying in bounds, then you skip half of the tower by going around what is very clearly marked to be in bounds.
Edit history:
ChazneySR: 2015-03-21 10:33:38 am
ChazneySR: 2015-03-21 10:33:28 am
The definition is any route you can take without bypassing a solid surface and/or accessible via Serenity (I defined it in the first post of the thread somewhere).

The definition of a boundary prevents clipping. If you can run into anything and it stops you, it is a boundary. Anything that has a death trigger that is bypassed via Serenity is not considered a boundary since while the surface kills you, it doesn't stop you. In this case, there is nothing stopping you and therefore it isn't considered a boundary. The door skip on level 3 has been questioned in the past, but it follows the definition. The boundary is created where you stand, you can walk to where the door is then back out without being stopped by a boundary. Obviously, going back through the door once the boundary exists is not allowed.

The last part of the definition is to clarify exceptions like this, which may be questionable. http://www.twitch.tv/chazneysr/c/2882337?t=13m48s is also quite questionable. That certainly isn't supposed to be accessible, which is evident by the building design, but we allow it.

Focus flying is something that nobody has included in a run, but was mentioned way back in this thread somewhere. The Serenity rule prevents focus flying from accessing a lot of shady places without bypassing a boundary (going all the way over the top of level 5 is an example). Nobody has used focus flying in a no-OoB run, even in early runs, likely in the spirit of things. The start of level 6 is an example of where you can use focus flying to get the height to Serenity instead of using the wall on the left, which is faster. I think most people who have run it (ClysmiC, for example, whom ran it first) have just agreed to not use focus flying. Focus flying would not save too much time to get to places accessible by Serenity anyway.

Overall, it's a shady category, I agree. Nobody ever defined it, ClysmiC just kinda ran it and we just house ruled it randomly (my run based heavily on ClysmiC's run). If you aren't clipping, you are probably good to go. Bypassing death triggers using Serenity is fine, because the death trigger is not a boundary. My run is very beatable, so if you beat it under your own set of more defined No-OoB rules, we can use those instead. I do, however, feel the definition at the top of this post will suffice.
We require more minerals
When Clysmic first brought up the rule everyone decided that focus flying would be included because it didn't make sense with the category. The link you provided isn't actually circumventing anything trying to block you. I tried that normally when I saw it and you can climb all of it normally.

The Level 3 skip can be done without actually standing in the doorway or having it close on you.

The issue here is that the lack of flying, the level 3 skip, have all been discussed by multiple people, and as far as I know, the skip you used on level 2 wasn't. When you're running weird categories like this, it's usually left to community consensus and I never saw anything about that skip so I brought it up. I'd like to see what other people think for example because one person doesn't really constitute a community discussion.

You claim that a death trigger  doesn't constitute a boundary, and I feel that's really shaky ground.

Yes, I could beat the run without using that skip if I played it enough, but what happens if the category gets optimized and we have two runs, one without the skip and one with? It should be discussed.
Quote:
You claim that a death trigger  doesn't constitute a boundary, and I feel that's really shaky ground.


Indeed. Again this was derived from the first no-OoB submitted, which skipped lasers that would be considered a boundary if death triggers were considered boundaries. I'm perfectly happy to consider death triggers as boundaries.

It's hard to define boundaries for clearly accessible areas, such as the one you mentioned and the one I mentioned other than drawing up maps and saying "don't go here". It's almost just as shaky to say "if it looks like a path the developers didn't want you to take, don't take it".

Serenity is what causes the issue on levels that come before level 11. In these levels you can clearly define boundaries as places you can get to without Serenity. You say the link I posted is fine, but it is just another example of skipping part of the level using Serenity, albeit less substantial.

If we use absence of Serenity as a means of defining boundaries, perhaps also calling death triggers boundaries to prevent issues on levels 11 and 12 (which would nullify laser skips, a small price to pay), then we have a pretty solid definition of a boundary, but would prevent paths such as the link i posted. Obviously, this would invalidate any current run, but I agree that we need a better definition.
We require more minerals
I don't really see laser skips as a death trigger. You say death trigger and I think of the one in level 5 that stops you from climbing the side of the tower. Stuff where "if you enter this area" you just die and respawn at the checkpoint. That's another way that the developers can say "this is out of bounds."

I guess we're just using similar terminology for two different things because you say death trigger and I think death plane.
We require more minerals
Honestly this is why I was thinking of running glitchless, but it's hard to really define. Laser skips are obviously a no. What about teleporting to the place you did in that clip you linked? What about the skip in level 3 if you don't let the door close on you? Abusing the AI in the puzzle on the last level?

I just wanted to get into a category that didn't just clip out of bounds and ignore most of the guards, but it seems like definitions are a pain.
Indian Ocean bro!
Quote from Raelcun:
How is this considered not out of bounds? You're on the very right most edge of the map and circumvent an item put in place by the developers on several maps to prevent you from being able to continue upwards along a wall.


I don't see why it would be consider OoB since you can go there by going through the building, and personally I think that the developpers made this item on purpose so you can go through it on NG+. I don't think that in Klei they are so dumb to code a game without thinking of NG+

And Raelcun I don't understand, you want to create a new category just for this? Please run the current No-OoB so I'll not be the only one :p
Edit history:
ChazneySR: 2015-03-23 01:22:40 am
ChazneySR: 2015-03-23 12:11:42 am
ChazneySR: 2015-03-23 12:03:09 am
Quote:
I guess we're just using similar terminology for two different things because you say death trigger and I think death plane.

For sure. The only reason I had for bundling lasers (or anything that kills for that matter) into death triggers is that it's easier to define; touching anything that kills you and surviving is considered passing a boundary. A laser over a grate is there to prevent you from passing, it shouldn't really be treated any differently to a giant death plane. A laser over a grate can be considered a temporary death plane. If you are allowed to pass lasers using a glitch (an unintended path), why should you not be able to pass a death plane if you find a way? Sure, the death plane is an obvious no-no in the spirit of no-OoB, but then a laser designed to stop your progress should be too. Replace all lasers in the game that temporarily block paths with doors that open, and you get exactly the same result for what the developers intended, but now passing through it is definitely violating no-OoB. The choice of a laser or an invisible death plane is a matter of aesthetics, the overall principle of why they exist is the same whether they are death triggers or solid objects: they are boundaries imposed by the developers.

Quote:
I just wanted to get into a category that didn't just clip out of bounds and ignore most of the guards, but it seems like definitions are a pain.

Definitely. I understand your frustration, because NG+ no-OoB is certainly the most interesting category, a blend of speed via Serenity and keeping the run interesting via seeing most of the content. The problem is the game is very broken. Defining boundaries based on excluding Serenity and including any death triggers as boundaries solves most of the issues.

The AI on level 12 is an interesting point. It certainly wasn't intended, but it is hardly a glitch. Sure, it looks silly, but really there is nothing wrong with it. Something like this just comes down the community collectively agreeing to use a more appealing strategy just as a means to aesthetics. I just personally like finding the silliest strategy in the timed scenarios. My catacombs strategy is to use bugs on one of the dogs to terrify a guard and see how many kills he gets because I find it entertaining. The same applies with level 12, I find it entertaining how dumb it makes the supposed super elite guards look.

Quote:
And Raelcun I don't understand, you want to create a new category just for this? Please run the current No-OoB so I'll not be the only one :p

He isn't trying to create a new category, he is trying to change (or more precisely, solidify) the definition of the no-OoB category. With the changes we are discussing, the run won't change much, but will overall become more interesting and less questionable.
Edit history:
Raelcun: 2015-03-23 01:28:48 pm
We require more minerals
I'm not going to start a new category based on that. If I was to start running something new, it would be New Game Glitchless.

I mainly just wanted to start a discussion on what's in bounds and what's out of bounds. I feel like we kind of halfassed it and if I wanted to get into the category I'd want it to be more clearly defined by the community.

Quote:
I think that the developpers made this item on purpose so you can go through it on NG+. I don't think that in Klei they are so dumb to code a game without thinking of NG+

The issue with using this reasoning is that this is the only instance in the game that you can circumvent it. In all other places, the wall above it is tagged so you can't teleport to it. It's very difficult to argue and use developer intent when talking about glitch categories in speedrunning.

I don't particularly like that the current run goes around it because the entire point of the category is to avoid skipping major portions of the game and force you to interact with the guards. That being said, going around that skips about half the tower which includes some of the more annoying guard rooms in the game.

I speedran the game before all these glitches were found out and the guards in those rooms are painfully inconsistent and annoying because they will repeatedly kill you for no reason. I just wanted to make sure that we were allowing it for a reason that was "Because this doesn't count as going out of bounds" and not "because these guards are a pain in the ass and I want to skip them."
Edit history:
ChazneySR: 2015-04-06 03:01:52 pm
Quote:
I mainly just wanted to start a discussion on what's in bounds and what's out of bounds. I feel like we kind of halfassed it and if I wanted to get into the category I'd want it to be more clearly defined by the community.

Quote:
I just wanted to make sure that we were allowing it for a reason that was "Because this doesn't count as going out of bounds" and not "because these guards are a pain in the ass and I want to skip them."

I'm pretty sure it was innocent. Current runs follow the definition of:
No-OoB is defined as taking any path accessible via Serenity that does not pass through solid objects.

Changing the definition won't really help solve this problem situation of skipping this building. I made an image, take a look:

The orange line is the problem path.
The green line is the path the path through the building that you would normally take.
The red box is the problem region.
The yellow line is a way of passing through the problem region legitimately.


As you can see, the problem is very specific. The reason this specific obstacle causes problems is that the exit of the building is right next to it, so no death plane can be placed there. There is no way to define a boundary here. The red box is the boundary we are trying to impose, but you can legitimately pass through it from above. So it becomes a 1 way imposed boundary: you can go through it going down, but not going up.

Unfortunately, I think the run current definition we use is the most solid. It does cause situations where parts of the levels are skipped, but that is the price that is paid when you introduce Serenity into levels it was not designed for.
OLV
Quote from Raelcun:
I don't particularly like that the current run goes around it because the entire point of the category is to avoid skipping major portions of the game and force you to interact with the guards. That being said, going around that skips about half the tower which includes some of the more annoying guard rooms in the game.

I speedran the game before all these glitches were found out and the guards in those rooms are painfully inconsistent and annoying because they will repeatedly kill you for no reason. I just wanted to make sure that we were allowing it for a reason that was "Because this doesn't count as going out of bounds" and not "because these guards are a pain in the ass and I want to skip them."


I actually don't find those guards that bad.  I played around with them a lot during NG Any% and NG Seals & Scrolls, and found a solidly consistent way to run through them, without serenity, with very, very few failures.  As long as you don't alert certain ones, it's 100% consistent.  Don't know if that helps this debate at all.

As someone who hasn't, and probably won't, run No OoB, it seems like Chazney's definition is fine.  It is general, and applies to everything.  There's one spot in the game where it doesn't sit very well aesthetically, but that's because it goes against an indefinite "spirit of the category," and not because the rule itself is inconsistent.  It think a solid, definite rule is worth one place where you don't get to see a couple guards.
Edit history:
Akitaka1: 2015-05-29 05:08:17 pm
Hi, I've been learning to run this game for a while now, and I have a question for you all. Is anybody still running NG obake?
OLV
I don't know that anyone is running the game at all, actually.  There are probably some people who could be persuaded to run with you if you PMed them.
Indian Ocean bro!
I run it but not NG obake, I'm doing NG+ No-OoB sorry