KotOR speedrun in just over 2 hours -- Knights of the Old Republic Done Quick

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-04-28 09:50:00 pm

glasnonck: 2015-04-28 09:08:51 pm

glasnonck: 2015-04-28 09:07:49 pm

2015-04-28 08:59:29 pm

I just did a run through the first part of Korriban as a Scout. There didn't seem to be a noticeable loss of time that couldn't be attributed to me being rusty. I was able to get both Yuthura and Lashowe's persuade attempts on my first try. However, the Sith Mask that we pick up on Korriban after using a FLU on T3 requires heavy armor. Going without it would require one of a few different options:

1. Wasting a feat on Heavy armor (or 2 for scoundrel, or you could FLU to get it)
2. Being more conservative on our purchases so the Stabilizer Mask becomes affordable (this requires medium armor proficiency, which Scoundrel doesn't have)
3. Hope for the best through the last parts of the game, especially on the star forge (not a good idea for safe strats, but may save some time if extremely lucky)
4. Play as Scout and wait until Tatooine to purchase the Nerve Enhancement Package from the two-headed merchant in the docks (it only costs 500 credits and requires 2nd level implants, which Scouts gets at lvl 4)

I only found out about the implant after killing the run, so I'll have to try that out next time. Scout may still be a good choice, but I don't know if Scoundrel will be.

Edit: You can also pick up a Breath Mask (100 credits) from the same merchant, which will give immunity to poision. That'll help against the Slow line of force powers on the Star Forge, and it would replace whatever headgear you had. I guess you could also use the Verpine Headband to add 3 to your will saves.

I just did a run through the first part of Korriban as a Scout. There didn't seem to be a noticeable loss of time that couldn't be attributed to me being rusty. I was able to get both Yuthura and Lashowe's persuade attempts on my first try. However, the Sith Mask that we pick up on Korriban after using a FLU on T3 requires heavy armor. Going without it would require one of a few different options:

1. Wasting a feat on Heavy armor (or 2 for scoundrel, or you could FLU to get it)
2. Being more conservative on our purchases so the Stabilizer Mask becomes affordable (this requires medium armor proficiency, which Scoundrel doesn't have)
3. Hope for the best through the last parts of the game, especially on the star forge (not a good idea for safe strats, but may save some time if extremely lucky)
4. Play as Scout and wait until Tatooine to purchase the Nerve Enhancement Package from the two-headed merchant in the docks (it only costs 500 credits and requires 2nd level implants, which Scouts gets at lvl 4)

I only found out about the implant after killing the run, so I'll have to try that out next time. Scout may still be a good choice, but I don't know if Scoundrel will be.

Edit: You can also pick up a Breath Mask (100 credits) from the same merchant, which will give immunity to poision. That'll help against the Slow line of force powers on the Star Forge, and it would replace whatever headgear you had. I guess you could also use the Verpine Headband to add 3 to your will saves.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-04-29 07:52:55 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-29 07:37:54 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-29 07:37:39 pm

2015-04-29 07:36:08 pm

I was already leaning towards the Breath Mask and Nerve Enhancement Package for Scouts, but I've settled on running as a Scoundrel, so I haven't been searching as closely as I could be. Not having Heavy Armor is unfortunate, but there are a couple Verpine Headbands on the route (+3 Will, +2 Awareness), and I was just going to use one of those. The first one is a bit annoying for RTA because it's on the corpse of the Matale guy on Dantooine; it's on the way, but Bastila likes to get caught up on the enemies nearby (which you can kite to the zone boundary, but it isn't 100%). The second is on Lashowe, which is also convenient, but means you wouldn't have it for the Dantooine ruins and the flamethrower droid.

Another thing that's worth mentioning is that the carbonite freeze effect a couple enemies have is a Reflex save, which Scouts and Scoundrels are both better at - I'm actually doing the death side of the Dantooine ruins first because of this. Though I still like Scoundrel more than Scout because of the Defense and the extra feat from FLU, which basically negates the lower attack as compared to Soldier (Sneak Attack is there, too, I suppose).

Edit: The other implant option I was considering so far was a Retinal Combat Implant, which gives immunity to critical hits. Not as nice as the Nerve Enhancement Package, but you don't have to buy it (iirc it's on the other corpse by Juhani - either there or the Matale guy, I'd have to check).

I was already leaning towards the Breath Mask and Nerve Enhancement Package for Scouts, but I've settled on running as a Scoundrel, so I haven't been searching as closely as I could be.  Not having Heavy Armor is unfortunate, but there are a couple Verpine Headbands on the route (+3 Will, +2 Awareness), and I was just going to use one of those.  The first one is a bit annoying for RTA because it's on the corpse of the Matale guy on Dantooine; it's on the way, but Bastila likes to get caught up on the enemies nearby (which you can kite to the zone boundary, but it isn't 100%).  The second is on Lashowe, which is also convenient, but means you wouldn't have it for the Dantooine ruins and the flamethrower droid.

Another thing that's worth mentioning is that the carbonite freeze effect a couple enemies have is a Reflex save, which Scouts and Scoundrels are both better at - I'm actually doing the death side of the Dantooine ruins first because of this.  Though I still like Scoundrel more than Scout because of the Defense and the extra feat from FLU, which basically negates the lower attack as compared to Soldier (Sneak Attack is there, too, I suppose).

Edit: The other implant option I was considering so far was a Retinal Combat Implant, which gives immunity to critical hits.  Not as nice as the Nerve Enhancement Package, but you don't have to buy it (iirc it's on the other corpse by Juhani - either there or the Matale guy, I'd have to check).

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-04-29 08:39:22 pm

2015-04-29 08:36:21 pm

Yeah, Casus's corpse on Dantooine has the headband, but Bastila shouldn't be a problem since you remove her from your party anyway. I've been looking at GameBanshee for some hints as to where I can find items. I doubt it's 100%, but it's a good place to start.

The Retinal Combat Implant that I knew of is on the corpse in Ajunta Pall's tomb. I think the corpse next to Juhani has a Mandalorian Melee Shield.

I find the description of Scoundrel on strategywiki to be a bit misleading since the defense bonus comes from Scoundrel's Luck and not from base stats. Where exactly is the extra feat coming from again? I get you're doing a FLU, but are you using the old FLU or the new FLU? I guess you're using the 3 -> 4 level up to get either Master Flurry or Master 2WF. Is that right?

That's a good idea, going into the death room in Dantooine ruins first, since you'll be able to stay away from the flamethrower for longer.

Edit: I'll probably do a couple of practice runs tomorrow to see how well some of these ideas work out.

Yeah, Casus's corpse on Dantooine has the headband, but Bastila shouldn't be a problem since you remove her from your party anyway. I've been looking at [url=http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotor/equipment.php]GameBanshee [/url]for some hints as to where I can find items. I doubt it's 100%, but it's a good place to start.

The Retinal Combat Implant that I knew of is on the corpse in Ajunta Pall's tomb. I think the corpse next to Juhani has a Mandalorian Melee Shield.

I find the description of Scoundrel on strategywiki to be a bit misleading since the defense bonus comes from Scoundrel's Luck and not from base stats. Where exactly is the extra feat coming from again? I get you're doing a FLU, but are you using the old FLU or the new FLU? I guess you're using the 3 -> 4 level up to get either Master Flurry or Master 2WF. Is that right?

That's a good idea, going into the death room in Dantooine ruins first, since you'll be able to stay away from the flamethrower for longer.

Edit: I'll probably do a couple of practice runs tomorrow to see how well some of these ideas work out.

AlecK47

2015-04-29 08:54:07 pm

The extra feat is because the FLU ends at level 12, and Scoundrel gets a feat then, which I use to get Master 2WF.

The Retinal Combat Implant I was thinking of was from the first merchant visited on Taris, and visiting him later isn't that hard, but a free one would be better.

And I haven't been removing Bastila there because the trick to not add her hasn't been working for me. I plan on giving it some more practice time, but haven't got to it yet, and in the meantime the kiting has generally worked fine.

glasnonck

2015-04-30 10:10:32 pm

I did a run as Scout today that went pretty well through the first half and on the Endar Spire, which is where the changes really matter. I never saved time, but I think that's because I'm still rusty from not running it for a while. I'll do some more test runs to try and be sure. I found an interesting trick in the temple on Lehon (Rakata Prime / Unknown World). After doing the puzzle in the basement, when you are heading back to the front of the temple you can leave your party at the door to the basement while you head to the front. They will be close enough to the upper door to allow you to travel through it even though they are beyond a few walls. This'll make the temple a bit more consistent, since you won't have to wait for your party to catch up.

I'm curious, what's happening to keep you from removing Bastila? Are you unable to remove party members, or does she not come back when you enter the Dantooine ruins?

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-05-01 12:56:09 pm

AlecK47: 2015-05-01 12:03:15 pm

AlecK47: 2015-05-01 09:36:06 am

2015-05-01 09:34:42 am

I didn't try it very much, and I think when I did I must have triggered some strange and esoteric bug that kept me from removing Bastila. No idea what happened, but now it's working consistently, just as it should.

The Temple thing is pretty cool. Jolee usually follows me just fine, but when he doesn't...

Finally, I think the RNG must have been in love with me the first couple times through the Star Forge as a Scoundrel. A whole lot of stunning going on now, so I'm going to do some more thinking. The simplest solution as a Scoundrel is another FLU to get Heavy Armor. I'm leaning towards Korriban at the moment; it might not be 100% to hit level 8 after killing the Sith rebels but there's a reusable corpse you can loot in the area. The question then is to go to level 12 just for the feat and skills (and a power you don't really need), or go to level 20 for Master Speed. The extra attack would be nice, but the extra 8 false levels take time, so I'm a bit unsure.

Otherwise I'm thinking a more optimal way to do things might be as a Scout, possibly replacing the level 4 FLU with cross-class Persuade ranks, using one of the "extra" feats they get on Heavy Armor, and then possibly doing FLU on Korriban. Because the level 4 FLU doesn't give Scouts any feats, the Sith Governor and his droid would be harder to hit, as would any shyracks that follow you on Korriban and the Sith rebels. Still, it's basically trading a bit of straight up time saving for a bunch of luck that is likely to go against you in the long run.

Edit: Another option is to save level 5 until you become a Jedi. It's not bad if you FLU at level 4 and get a feat, and the change would make level 16 a feat level as a Jedi Guardian, saving four FLU's on the second set if you wanted Master Speed. Plus, the only thing lv. 5 Scoundrel gives besides HP is the wholly unnecessary Sneak Attack 3 - no Attack or saves at all.

I didn't try it very much, and I think when I did I must have triggered some strange and esoteric bug that kept me from removing Bastila.  No idea what happened, but now it's working consistently, just as it should.

The Temple thing is pretty cool.  Jolee usually follows me just fine, but when he doesn't...

Finally, I think the RNG must have been in love with me the first couple times through the Star Forge as a Scoundrel.  A whole lot of stunning going on now, so I'm going to do some more thinking.  The simplest solution as a Scoundrel is another FLU to get Heavy Armor.  I'm leaning towards Korriban at the moment; it might not be 100% to hit level 8 after killing the Sith rebels but there's a reusable corpse you can loot in the area.  The question then is to go to level 12 just for the feat and skills (and a power you don't really need), or go to level 20 for Master Speed.  The extra attack would be nice, but the extra 8 false levels take time, so I'm a bit unsure.

Otherwise I'm thinking a more optimal way to do things might be as a Scout, possibly replacing the level 4 FLU with cross-class Persuade ranks, using one of the "extra" feats they get on Heavy Armor, and then possibly doing FLU on Korriban.  Because the level 4 FLU doesn't give Scouts any feats, the Sith Governor and his droid would be harder to hit, as would any shyracks that follow you on Korriban and the Sith rebels.  Still, it's basically trading a bit of straight up time saving for a bunch of luck that is likely to go against you in the long run.

Edit: Another option is to save level 5 until you become a Jedi.  It's not bad if you FLU at level 4 and get a feat, and the change would make level 16 a feat level as a Jedi Guardian, saving four FLU's on the second set if you wanted Master Speed.  Plus, the only thing lv. 5 Scoundrel gives besides HP is the wholly unnecessary Sneak Attack 3 - no Attack or saves at all.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-05-08 05:40:43 pm

2015-05-08 05:37:59 pm

I've settled on two FLU's for the main character, playing as Scoundrel as mentioned in my edit above, and putting the feat from the second FLU into Heavy Armor Proficiency. After a bit of practice with it, I really like it as a marathon route. Even if it's a bit overkill on the FLU in terms of opportunity cost, it's a good deal more consistent than anything else I've tried.

On another note, I managed to get a teleport, but not with saving or the menu... I got it by alt+tabbing. Otherwise it's the same as a save teleport (unless you get more distance from a save teleport with Force Speed up), minus the saving bit, and it works consistently on my laptop. It even worked for me in the Hidden Bek Hideout - not that it's even remotely worth doing there. After messing around with it a bit, though, I am now completely convinced that the effect is based on lag. If I pressed W again as soon as my computer was switched back to the game I would get a lot more distance than if I waited, and the distance traveled deteriorated rather quickly the more I waited. I tested this effect further by entering the menu before alt+tabbing to provide a more consistent buffer (a visual to react to), and got very similar results.

And as a final note, I've also stopped going to the doctor on Taris (Zelka Forn, I believe the name is). It seems to have no discernible effect on the run, other than a bit of time saved.

Edit: And one amusing thing that happened to me while testing the warping stuff was that I apparently stopped the shyracks from spawning on Korriban when I used a practice save made immediately after the Calo Nord skip. You get almost no distance, and I like having a shyrack or two around for force jumping, though - especially since I've started doing the Lashowe quest before Ajunta Pall's tomb, and they follow you to a really convenient place before stopping there.

I've settled on two FLU's for the main character, playing as Scoundrel as mentioned in my edit above, and putting the feat from the second FLU into Heavy Armor Proficiency.  After a bit of practice with it, I really like it as a marathon route.  Even if it's a bit overkill on the FLU in terms of opportunity cost, it's a good deal more consistent than anything else I've tried.

On another note, I managed to get a teleport, but not with saving or the menu...  I got it by alt+tabbing.  Otherwise it's the same as a save teleport (unless you get more distance from a save teleport with Force Speed up), minus the saving bit, and it works consistently on my laptop.  It even worked for me in the Hidden Bek Hideout - not that it's even remotely worth doing there.  After messing around with it a bit, though, I am now completely convinced that the effect is based on lag.  If I pressed W again as soon as my computer was switched back to the game I would get a lot more distance than if I waited, and the distance traveled deteriorated rather quickly the more I waited.  I tested this effect further by entering the menu before alt+tabbing to provide a more consistent buffer (a visual to react to), and got very similar results.

And as a final note, I've also stopped going to the doctor on Taris (Zelka Forn, I believe the name is).  It seems to have no discernible effect on the run, other than a bit of time saved.

Edit: And one amusing thing that happened to me while testing the warping stuff was that I apparently stopped the shyracks from spawning on Korriban when I used a practice save made immediately after the Calo Nord skip.  You get almost no distance, and I like having a shyrack or two around for force jumping, though - especially since I've started doing the Lashowe quest before Ajunta Pall's tomb, and they follow you to a really convenient place before stopping there.

glasnonck

2015-05-12 04:21:36 pm

I'm interested to see how your route performs both in speed and consistency. However, I still think Scout with no FLU may be the fastest, since that path wouldn't require any sort of FLU.

I'm glad to have more evidence that it's based on lag. I know that my teleports were better when at 25 fps than at 60 fps, which seems related. Interestingly, I was able to get small teleports after every loading screen on the Xbox version if I held forward through the load.

I tried but wasn't able to get any teleports using alt+tab, but I did mess around using Cheat Engine's process pause feature. This method, which would be illegal in normal runs, seemed to suggest that it's better to cause the lag during the startup of the character's run. After some looking into the memory addresses, I found that the player does have a short period of acceleration when they start moving before they reach their max speed. This may cause the character to get a much larger boost in speed if it lags during the acceleration period. I haven't done a lot of testing with this yet, so take it with a grain of salt.

I was testing out going to Zelka around the time I got my PB, but that strat isn't beneficial unless you can consistently get the infinite buff glitch. Otherwise, you'll just brake even.

I'm interested to see how your route performs both in speed and consistency. However, I still think Scout with no FLU may be the fastest, since that path wouldn't require any sort of FLU.

I'm glad to have more evidence that it's based on lag. I know that my teleports were better when at 25 fps than at 60 fps, which seems related. Interestingly, I was able to get small teleports after every loading screen on the Xbox version if I held forward through the load.

I tried but wasn't able to get any teleports using alt+tab, but I did mess around using Cheat Engine's process pause feature. This method, which would be illegal in normal runs, seemed to suggest that it's better to cause the lag during the startup of the character's run. After some looking into the memory addresses, I found that the player does have a short period of acceleration when they start moving before they reach their max speed. This may cause the character to get a much larger boost in speed if it lags during the acceleration period. I haven't done a lot of testing with this yet, so take it with a grain of salt.

I was testing out going to Zelka around the time I got my PB, but that strat isn't beneficial unless you can consistently get the infinite buff glitch. Otherwise, you'll just brake even.

AlecK47

2015-05-13 06:11:58 pm

Well, my RPGLB run may have had some issues (and my hair is still full of real salt), but you should still be able to see where it helps for consistency. I think that route's max potential is somewhere between 2:00 and 2:05, but unless you mess things up and/or miss when the game is about to crash, like I did, it's going to be more consistent than most other routes.

That said, going forward, I'm also sold on Scout. The more I think about it, the more I like it. I'm pondering an FLU on Korriban, but that's something I'm going to want to think about a bit more and test out a bit before I decide. Saving half your skill ranks each level will get you a bunch of points in Persuade once you become a Jedi, you get all good saves, and there's a Nerve Enhancement Package on the route, so Sith Mask is probably unnecessary. For that matter, you can wear the Neural Band for even better Will saves... Money might be affected a bit, but I'm sure it's workable.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-05-20 03:40:42 pm

AlecK47: 2015-05-20 03:36:23 pm

2015-05-20 02:22:42 pm

I did some thinking toward the tail end of RPGLB, along with a bit of theorycrafting. Going with Scout seems to be absolutely the best choice for two main reasons: the Nerve Enhancement Package and extra skill points. There are a few other things I’ve thought about, and I’ll weigh in on those, but first here’s a plan for feats and powers with this build:

Feats (Jedi at level 5)
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: Conditioning
3: Empathy
5: Improved Flurry
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10: Master Flurry
11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Feats (Jedi at level 6)
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: Conditioning
3: Empathy
5: Improved Flurry
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: Master Flurry
10: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Powers
5: Speed, Valor
6: Energy Resistance? (or Speed and Valor)
7: Throw Lightsaber
8: Irrelevant
9. Knight Speed
10: Drain Life
11: Energy Resistance?
12 and on: Irrelevant

The only reason to not auto level for non-feat levels is if you want a particular force power then. Getting Knight Speed ASAP yields obvious benefits, so I think it's worth doing that level up manually. Otherwise, the only reason not to auto level at level 6 or 11, depending on when Jedi Guardian is entered, is to get Energy Resistance; and if Jedi is entered a level early, you can grab it just as easily at level 11, though it is useful on Korriban. Either way, level 8 should be an auto level, because the game will give you exactly what you want.

As for skills, the general idea is to save ranks until you become a Jedi so that you can drop a bunch into Persuade when it becomes in-class. If you go into Jedi Guardian starting at level 5, you can afford to put 5 ranks in Treat Injury if you also put a point in Security, or 7 in TI without it, and still immediately max Persuade upon going into Jedi. If the first level of Jedi is at 6, you can afford two more ranks in TI. The rank in Security is only of minor convenience, though, because if you run slightly past Trask at the start, he won’t warp to the opposite side of the door; and even if he does, you can still get him to you at the loss of a few seconds by trying to open the next door normally. As for just how much Persuade is really necessary, that's hard to say. I wish it showed up in the Feedback tab, but alas, it must be tested.

The next question is whether or not to save level 5 until you become a Jedi. The tradeoff is between slightly earlier feats and an extra skill point, or better Attack and Saves over the course of the entire run (level 5 gets no Attack or Saves). Getting the earlier feats would give a 10% better chance to hit the Sith Governor and, assuming the planet order stays the same, Master Flurry for Tatooine and both Master Flurry and Greater Two Weapon Fighting for Leviathan instead of just one of the two. For saves, the relevant boosts would be 1 higher for all in the Dantooine Ruins, 1 higher Fortitude and Reflex in the Tomb of Naga Sadow, and 1 higher Will for Tatooine and Rakata Prime through most of the Star Forge. Without taking Attack into account, it seems like more or less a tie, so saving level 5 until you become a Jedi seems the clear winner to me. Plus, the worst part for doing things that way would be the Sith Governor, which is fairly early.

Equipment is easy, and on top of it all a nice time save. Just stop by Zelka Forn one of the two times you pass by, sell some parts so that you can afford the Mind Enhancement Package, which would mean you could have it equipped for the Sith Governor and Korriban; the credits can be easily recouped in the Tarisian Noble’s room in Davik’s Estate. Alternatively, it could be purchased on Tatooine with the likely excess of money you’d have by then, but barring a reshuffling of the planet order this seems like it might be the inferior option despite the raw time saved. Either way there’s no need to get the Sith Mask, and therefore no need to FLU T3, and a Verpine Headband could give an additional +3 Will.

Right now I’m inclined to leave the planet order the same but I’m still going to mess around with some alternatives, such as swapping Manaan and Kashyyyk or putting Tatooine before Korriban.

Finally, now that I’m back and have had a chance to play on my desktop again, and I've confirmed that the game is running fine, but the game loads so quickly after quicksaving that I can't effectively use it to buffer. But my laptop, while good for what it is, gives me a nice window to move and get the next quicksave. So I guess I'll keep running this game on that... I think it’s just best to run this on a less than stellar computer.

Edit: Tatooine first is just not feasible. Even with stims, energy resistance and a bunch of menu healing you die way too easily.

I did some thinking toward the tail end of RPGLB, along with a bit of theorycrafting.  Going with Scout seems to be absolutely the best choice for two main reasons: the Nerve Enhancement Package and extra skill points.  There are a few other things I’ve thought about, and I’ll weigh in on those, but first here’s a plan for feats and powers with this build:
[hidden][b]Feats (Jedi at level 5)[/b]
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: Conditioning
3: Empathy
5: Improved Flurry
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10: Master Flurry
11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

[b]Feats (Jedi at level 6)[/b]
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: Conditioning
3: Empathy
5: Improved Flurry
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: Master Flurry
10: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

[b]Powers[/b]
5: Speed, Valor
6: Energy Resistance? (or Speed and Valor)
7: Throw Lightsaber
8: Irrelevant
9. Knight Speed
10: Drain Life
11: Energy Resistance?
12 and on: Irrelevant[/hidden]
The only reason to not auto level for non-feat levels is if you want a particular force power then.  Getting Knight Speed ASAP yields obvious benefits, so I think it's worth doing that level up manually.  Otherwise, the only reason not to auto level at level 6 or 11, depending on when Jedi Guardian is entered, is to get Energy Resistance; and if Jedi is entered a level early, you can grab it just as easily at level 11, though it is useful on Korriban.  Either way, level 8 should be an auto level, because the game will give you exactly what you want.

As for skills, the general idea is to save ranks until you become a Jedi so that you can drop a bunch into Persuade when it becomes in-class.  If you go into Jedi Guardian starting at level 5, you can afford to put 5 ranks in Treat Injury if you also put a point in Security, or 7 in TI without it, and still immediately max Persuade upon going into Jedi.  If the first level of Jedi is at 6, you can afford two more ranks in TI.  The rank in Security is only of minor convenience, though, because if you run slightly past Trask at the start, he won’t warp to the opposite side of the door; and even if he does, you can still get him to you at the loss of a few seconds by trying to open the next door normally.  As for just how much Persuade is really necessary, that's hard to say.  I wish it showed up in the Feedback tab, but alas, it must be tested.

The next question is whether or not to save level 5 until you become a Jedi.  The tradeoff is between slightly earlier feats and an extra skill point, or better Attack and Saves over the course of the entire run (level 5 gets no Attack or Saves).  Getting the earlier feats would give a 10% better chance to hit the Sith Governor and, assuming the planet order stays the same, Master Flurry for Tatooine and both Master Flurry and Greater Two Weapon Fighting for Leviathan instead of just one of the two.  For saves, the relevant boosts would be 1 higher for all in the Dantooine Ruins, 1 higher Fortitude and Reflex in the Tomb of Naga Sadow, and 1 higher Will for Tatooine and Rakata Prime through most of the Star Forge.  Without taking Attack into account, it seems like more or less a tie, so saving level 5 until you become a Jedi seems the clear winner to me.  Plus, the worst part for doing things that way would be the Sith Governor, which is fairly early.

Equipment is easy, and on top of it all a nice time save.  Just stop by Zelka Forn one of the two times you pass by, sell some parts so that you can afford the Mind Enhancement Package, which would mean you could have it equipped for the Sith Governor and Korriban; the credits can be easily recouped in the Tarisian Noble’s room in Davik’s Estate.  Alternatively, it could be purchased on Tatooine with the likely excess of money you’d have by then, but barring a reshuffling of the planet order this seems like it might be the inferior option despite the raw time saved.  Either way there’s no need to get the Sith Mask, and therefore no need to FLU T3, and a Verpine Headband could give an additional +3 Will.

Right now I’m inclined to leave the planet order the same but I’m still going to mess around with some alternatives, such as swapping Manaan and Kashyyyk or putting Tatooine before Korriban.

Finally, now that I’m back and have had a chance to play on my desktop again, and I've confirmed that the game is running fine, but the game loads so quickly after quicksaving that I can't effectively use it to buffer.  But my laptop, while good for what it is, gives me a nice window to move and get the next quicksave.  So I guess I'll keep running this game on that...  I think it’s just best to run this on a less than stellar computer.

Edit: Tatooine first is just not feasible.  Even with stims, energy resistance and a bunch of menu healing you die way too easily.

glasnonck

2015-05-23 09:48:11 pm

I really like your analysis. There are a few things that I hadn't even thought of yet, but I have some thoughts or questions on a few points.

I like your feats / powers analysis pretty well. It's better to get Master Two-Weapon Fighting before Master Flurry, because TWF reduces the attack penalty by 2 for all attack rolls while Flurry only reduces the attack penalty by 1 for all rolls. Even with the defense penalty reduction by 1 for Master Flurry, I think the most important thing is hitting more often. Improved Flurry will reduce the attack penalty by 2, just like Improved TWF, so flurry would be preferable in that instance (as you have listed).

-- Another possibility is to play on version 1.0. I'm pretty sure that in this version the attack penalty that should be applied to double bladed weapons is missing. That would mean that we wouldn't have to use any feats for Two-Weapon Fighting. However, I'm not sure what the extras would go towards. Conditioning?

The next level of Force Speed should always be taken as soon it is available, as you show. Throw Lightsaber isn't actually required for the skip on Korriban, as long as you have either a grenade or another force power that can be used to attack droids (you can also use a blaster attack feat for that skip). I don't know where you were planning on getting Knight Valor, but I find it pretty important. It gives immunity to poison, which will give protection against the Affliction and Plague, while also granting saves to help against Slow. All three of these powers will slow you to a crawl even if you have force speed on. I guess having antidote kits would also protect against them, though. (+3 Will from the Verpine Headband would help as well)

I guess Energy Resistance could replace Intermediate Valor in the role of poison immunity since it has a longer duration, but it will also go away after taking 15 points of energy damage (aka, a blaster shot or lightsaber strike). Is that why you seem to prefer Energy Resistance in your powers list?

Getting the Nerve Enhancement Package from Zelka seems like an interesting idea, actually. I was considering him to be almost too far out of the way to be useful for picking up a few stims, and I didn't think about the other items he sold. Depending on how much he sells it for, you could recoup some of the cost by opening the cylinders in the first and second rooms on the right in the Black Vulkar Base (instead of just one of them).

I don't think it would be a good idea to move Kashyyyk in the order. Would it save time on Manaan at all? If it is moved, then (1) you'll have to take a bit more time while talking to the Star Map computer and (2) you'll be a bit lower level when fighting your way back to the Ebon Hawk. When talking to the Star Map computer, I think you can answer Light Side for the third question and that should override the Dark Side points gained from the correct answer for the fourth question. That should at least get the Star Map without fighting droids.

I doubted that Tatooine first would be best, but what about Tatooine second with Manaan first? Would you still take too much damage from the Selkath / Tuskans? Doing Manaan before Korriban might not be too good if you don't have alacrity stims (as backup) for the underwater segments. Without the better stims, fighting your way through the Sand People Enclave might not be very good. Maybe { Manaan, Korriban, Tatooine, Kashyyyk }? I'm not sure, so it would definitely be something to test.

All in all, your considerations seem sound! I'll probably start incorporating these ideas into my runs and tests.

I really like your analysis. There are a few things that I hadn't even thought of yet, but I have some thoughts or questions on a few points.

[hidden="feats"]I like your feats / powers analysis pretty well. It's better to get Master Two-Weapon Fighting before Master Flurry, because TWF reduces the attack penalty by 2 for all attack rolls while Flurry only reduces the attack penalty by 1 for all rolls. Even with the defense penalty reduction by 1 for Master Flurry, I think the most important thing is hitting more often. Improved Flurry will reduce the attack penalty by 2, just like Improved TWF, so flurry would be preferable in that instance (as you have listed).

-- Another possibility is to play on version 1.0. I'm pretty sure that in this version the attack penalty that should be applied to double bladed weapons is missing. That would mean that we wouldn't have to use any feats for Two-Weapon Fighting. However, I'm not sure what the extras would go towards. Conditioning?[/hidden]
[hidden="powers"]The next level of Force Speed should always be taken as soon it is available, as you show. Throw Lightsaber isn't actually required for the skip on Korriban, as long as you have either a grenade or another force power that can be used to attack droids (you can also use a blaster attack feat for that skip). I don't know where you were planning on getting Knight Valor, but I find it pretty important. It gives immunity to poison, which will give protection against the Affliction and Plague, while also granting saves to help against Slow. All three of these powers will slow you to a crawl even if you have force speed on. I guess having antidote kits would also protect against them, though. (+3 Will from the Verpine Headband would help as well)

I guess Energy Resistance could replace Intermediate Valor in the role of poison immunity since it has a longer duration, but it will also go away after taking 15 points of energy damage (aka, a blaster shot or lightsaber strike). Is that why you seem to prefer Energy Resistance in your powers list?[/hidden]
[hidden="equipment"]Getting the Nerve Enhancement Package from Zelka seems like an interesting idea, actually. I was considering him to be almost too far out of the way to be useful for picking up a few stims, and I didn't think about the other items he sold. Depending on how much he sells it for, you could recoup some of the cost by opening the cylinders in the first and second rooms on the right in the Black Vulkar Base (instead of just one of them).[/hidden]
[hidden="planet order"]I don't think it would be a good idea to move Kashyyyk in the order. Would it save time on Manaan at all? If it is moved, then (1) you'll have to take a bit more time while talking to the Star Map computer and (2) you'll be a bit lower level when fighting your way back to the Ebon Hawk. When talking to the Star Map computer, I think you can answer Light Side for the third question and that should override the Dark Side points gained from the correct answer for the fourth question. That should at least get the Star Map without fighting droids.

I doubted that Tatooine first would be best, but what about Tatooine second with Manaan first? Would you still take too much damage from the Selkath / Tuskans? Doing Manaan before Korriban might not be too good if you don't have alacrity stims (as backup) for the underwater segments. Without the better stims, fighting your way through the Sand People Enclave might not be very good. Maybe { Manaan, Korriban, Tatooine, Kashyyyk }? I'm not sure, so it would definitely be something to test.[/hidden]
All in all, your considerations seem sound! I'll probably start incorporating these ideas into my runs and tests.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-05-24 10:14:20 am

2015-05-24 09:25:39 am

You're right about Master Flurry being better later. I probably just misread that one, and treated it as a 2-point penalty reduction as well. And yeah, if that's the case on 1.0 the extra feats would probably be best as Conditioning, and maybe the first two Toughness feats. Though it would be extra silly if the 2WF feats ended up giving you a bonus anyway, I doubt that would be the case.

I didn't realize you could use a grenade for that CS skip on Korriban, too. That opens up the option of auto leveling at 6, and taking Energy Resistance for no time cost at level 7.

No Knight Valor was a numbers bet, combined with the fact that getting the infinite buff duration glitch with both Speed and Valor has been very inconsistent for me. And Energy Resistance also doesn't go away after taking 15 points of damage, but lasts until its duration runs out, which pretty much makes it the best defensive force power in the game (at least I think it is). That said, it would still be easy enough to grab ER early on and get Knight Valor (or Improved ER) for the Star Forge, which is when you'd want it most anyway. Or even Kashyyyk, if you get Drain Life at level 11.

The Nerve Enhancement Package is 500 credits no matter where you get it, so far as I can tell. Though if you're stopping by Zelka it would make sense to grab a stim or two as well for the Sith Base, at least. With that in mind, the extra room in Davik's Estate seems the best way to me, especially since I'm planning on bringing Bastila and Zalbaar there and leaving Canderous behind.

Potential planet order changes are mostly spitballing, tbh. Manaan first is probably the best thing to test, whether Korriban or Tatooine comes next. I was also highly skeptical of Tatooine first or Kashyyyk anywhere but last, but possibly skipping Zelka and having the most consistent planet last were worth a brief test, imo.

And speaking of light side points, I think I'm missing some, somehow. Unless I not only initiate the fight against the bounty hunters on Taris, but also give the old guy 100 credits, I end up one notch off LS after Korriban. That's why I made sure I was already light side going there at RPGLB, so that I could use the [Persuade/Lie] option on Yuthura and not gain DSP there. I've re-watched your run and checked your notes, but I'm still not sure where I'm missing them.

You're right about Master Flurry being better later.  I probably just misread that one, and treated it as a 2-point penalty reduction as well.   And yeah, if that's the case on 1.0 the extra feats would probably be best as Conditioning, and maybe the first two Toughness feats.  Though it would be extra silly if the 2WF feats ended up giving you a bonus anyway, I doubt that would be the case.

I didn't realize you could use a grenade for that CS skip on Korriban, too.  That opens up the option of auto leveling at 6, and taking Energy Resistance for no time cost at level 7.

No Knight Valor was a numbers bet, combined with the fact that getting the infinite buff duration glitch with both Speed and Valor has been very inconsistent for me.  And Energy Resistance also doesn't go away after taking 15 points of damage, but lasts until its duration runs out, which pretty much makes it the best defensive force power in the game (at least I think it is).  That said, it would still be easy enough to grab ER early on and get Knight Valor (or Improved ER) for the Star Forge, which is when you'd want it most anyway.  Or even Kashyyyk, if you get Drain Life at level 11.

The Nerve Enhancement Package is 500 credits no matter where you get it, so far as I can tell.  Though if you're stopping by Zelka it would make sense to grab a stim or two as well for the Sith Base, at least.  With that in mind, the extra room in Davik's Estate seems the best way to me, especially since I'm planning on bringing Bastila and Zalbaar there and leaving Canderous behind.

Potential planet order changes are mostly spitballing, tbh.  Manaan first is probably the best thing to test, whether Korriban or Tatooine comes next.  I was also highly skeptical of Tatooine first or Kashyyyk anywhere but last, but possibly skipping Zelka and having the most consistent planet last were worth a brief test, imo.

And speaking of light side points, I think I'm missing some, somehow.  Unless I not only initiate the fight against the bounty hunters on Taris, but also give the old guy 100 credits, I end up one notch off LS after Korriban.  That's why I made sure I was already light side going there at RPGLB, so that I could use the [Persuade/Lie] option on Yuthura and not gain DSP there.  I've re-watched your run and checked your notes, but I'm still not sure where I'm missing them.

glasnonck

2015-05-24 09:42:40 pm

With Master TWF, the attack penalty is -2 / -2 (main hand / off hand). With a balanced weapon, that gets changed to 0 / -2. I don't know if the double-bladed is balanced or not, so it may not be worth using version 1.0. I think there are patch notes for the 1.02 and 1.03 patches if you have the CD version. You may be able to find the notes online. Those notes may give some idea about if it would be worth rolling back the version. I'm just worried about the game crashing more often.

I didn't realize Energy Resistance stayed active after taking that damage. Buying a couple of stims from Zelka might be okay, but usually you'll have a strength and a battle stimulant. Those should give you enough of an edge on the sith governor. Some of the 500 credits could also be gathered from the corpses of the mandalorians near Juhani. Their Mandalorian Melee Shields sell for a pretty good price. Also, is there any more loot in the Tomb on Dantooine? There may be a few parts / spikes on the droid remains in the room on the left.

You do have to give the old guy 100 credits. I think my notes may be a bit outdated, and I know my video tutorial is. Oh, and you don't have to gain DSP on Yuthura with any amount of persuade. Are you talking about when you are convincing her to let you into the academy?

With Master TWF, the attack penalty is -2 / -2 (main hand / off hand). With a balanced weapon, that gets changed to 0 / -2. I don't know if the double-bladed is balanced or not, so it may not be worth using version 1.0. I think there are patch notes for the 1.02 and 1.03 patches if you have the CD version. You may be able to find the notes online. Those notes may give some idea about if it would be worth rolling back the version. I'm just worried about the game crashing more often.

I didn't realize Energy Resistance stayed active after taking that damage. Buying a couple of stims from Zelka might be okay, but usually you'll have a strength and a battle stimulant. Those should give you enough of an edge on the sith governor. Some of the 500 credits could also be gathered from the corpses of the mandalorians near Juhani. Their Mandalorian Melee Shields sell for a pretty good price. Also, is there any more loot in the Tomb on Dantooine? There may be a few parts / spikes on the droid remains in the room on the left.

You do have to give the old guy 100 credits. I think my notes may be a bit outdated, and I know my video tutorial is. Oh, and you don't have to gain DSP on Yuthura with any amount of persuade. Are you talking about when you are convincing her to let you into the academy?

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-05-25 11:04:44 am

2015-05-25 10:45:17 am

Double-bladed weapons are supposed to count as balanced, and do on the updated version of the game (I have it on Steam), though I suppose it would in reality require a test on 1.0 to be sure.

A couple things about Energy Resistance that are worth noting: the actual damage reduction is the lesser of either 15 points or half damage taken, which is still really nice; and it has been much more consistent than Knight Valor in regards to the infinite buff duration glitch. Because of the duration glitch and the fact that you'll have an even STR until level 12, I will be using Energy Resistance at least until then.

Finally, Manaan first is perfectly fine, as I expected. So far I've only tested Tatooine second, and while it is possible, I don't believe it's worth it. In order to survive fighting the Sand People, you pretty much need a Mandalorian Melee Shield or Brejik's Belt (which is obviously undesirable, because it would replace the CNS Strength Enhancer at the time). Energy Shields of some variety also help, but they glitch out Energy Resistance if used after it, so in order to refresh the shield optimally, Energy Resistance would have to be reapplied immediately thereafter. Between all that, the trip to the merchant for the Nerve Enhancement Package (and, let's face it, stims and medpacks) and the fact that you'll need to menu heal nearly every round of combat, I can't say it would save enough time to definitively be better than getting the Nerve Enhancement Package from Zelka Forn. It also didn't seem to have much impact on Korriban; I had Knight Speed for the Sith rebels, but Zaalbar got Critical Strike through auto leveling, and everything else was basically the same.

Edit: Yes, I meant when trying to gain access to the Sith Academy when I mentioned getting DSP. If you aren't Light Side there, you only have the [Persuade] option, which gives you a small amount of DSP.

Also, I've now tested out Manaan first, followed by Korriban, and I really like it. You still get Knight Speed for Uthar and Yuthura, and the level ups are conveniently timed. One should be available for right before Lashowe, and that one is level 8, so you can just auto level all three characters for that fight (though they still pick up Critical Strike). And the second one is available as soon as you gain the prestige to enter Naga Sadow's Tomb, and is therefore nice healing when facing the Tarentateks (in addition to yielding Knight Speed).

Double-bladed weapons are supposed to count as balanced, and do on the updated version of the game (I have it on Steam), though I suppose it would in reality require a test on 1.0 to be sure.

A couple things about Energy Resistance that are worth noting: the actual damage reduction is the lesser of either 15 points or half damage taken, which is still really nice; and it has been much more consistent than Knight Valor in regards to the infinite buff duration glitch.  Because of the duration glitch and the fact that you'll have an even STR until level 12, I will be using Energy Resistance at least until then.

Finally, Manaan first is perfectly fine, as I expected.  So far I've only tested Tatooine second, and while it is possible, I don't believe it's worth it.  In order to survive fighting the Sand People, you pretty much need a Mandalorian Melee Shield or Brejik's Belt (which is obviously undesirable, because it would replace the CNS Strength Enhancer at the time).  Energy Shields of some variety also help, but they glitch out Energy Resistance if used after it, so in order to refresh the shield optimally, Energy Resistance would have to be reapplied immediately thereafter.  Between all that, the trip to the merchant for the Nerve Enhancement Package (and, let's face it, stims and medpacks) and the fact that you'll need to menu heal nearly every round of combat, I can't say it would save enough time to definitively be better than getting the Nerve Enhancement Package from Zelka Forn.  It also didn't seem to have much impact on Korriban; I had Knight Speed for the Sith rebels, but Zaalbar got Critical Strike through auto leveling, and everything else was basically the same.

Edit:  Yes, I meant when trying to gain access to the Sith Academy when I mentioned getting DSP.  If you aren't Light Side there, you only have the [Persuade] option, which gives you a small amount of DSP.

Also, I've now tested out Manaan first, followed by Korriban, and I really like it.  You still get Knight Speed for Uthar and Yuthura, and the level ups are conveniently timed.  One should be available for right before Lashowe, and that one is level 8, so you can just auto level all three characters for that fight (though they still pick up Critical Strike).  And the second one is available as soon as you gain the prestige to enter Naga Sadow's Tomb, and is therefore nice healing when facing the Tarentateks (in addition to yielding Knight Speed).

indykenobi

2015-05-26 01:01:13 pm

You call this archaeology?

I think you've both thought things through a lot more than I have, since I'm still learning/getting used to the game. I did want to raise a couple additional points:

1. It's pretty easy to get the Sith Mask without FLUing T3; just tell Uthar that Yuthura wants to kill him right away (we do this anyway after the Valley), then tell Yuthura that Uthar plans to have you fight her in the final trial. If you lie about Uthar giving you orders to poison her, she'll give you a keycard to Uthar's room to poison him and you can get in that way. The extra conversations are Uthar: 3,1,3 and Yuthura: 1,1,1,2. I haven't timed it relative to the FLU, but my gut says it's only slightly slower, if at all. It might even be faster depending on your FLU menuing skill. I did this in my current PB (as a Soldier).
2. If Manaan is done before Korriban, would it be possible to get Dominate Mind before Lashowe? It gives you a Force Persuade option on the second check, but I'm not sure it how much it would actually help out. But thinking about it, particularly if you get Jedi at lvl 5, your Force powers could go

5: Speed, Energy Resistance
6: Affect Mind
7: Dominate Mind
8: Force Valor(?)
9: Knight Speed
10: Imp. Energy Res(?)
11: Drain Life

Or you could swap Energy Res and Valor, or push the Mind powers back a level if you hit 8 before Korriban, etc.

Also, I think I'm confused now about DS points when entering the academy. I didn't think persuading Yuthura gave DS points, and it doesn't seem to show up in Feedback. So... Huh?

I think you've both thought things through a lot more than I have, since I'm still learning/getting used to the game.  I did want to raise a couple additional points:

1. It's pretty easy to get the Sith Mask without FLUing T3; just tell Uthar that Yuthura wants to kill him right away (we do this anyway after the Valley), then tell Yuthura that Uthar plans to have you fight her in the final trial.  If you lie about Uthar giving you orders to poison her, she'll give you a keycard to Uthar's room to poison him and you can get in that way.  The extra conversations are Uthar: 3,1,3 and Yuthura: 1,1,1,2.  I haven't timed it relative to the FLU, but my gut says it's only slightly slower, if at all.  It might even be faster depending on your FLU menuing skill.  I did this in my current PB (as a Soldier).
2. If Manaan is done before Korriban, would it be possible to get Dominate Mind before Lashowe?  It gives you a Force Persuade option on the second check, but I'm not sure it how much it would actually help out.  But thinking about it, particularly if you get Jedi at lvl 5, your Force powers could go

5: Speed, Energy Resistance
6: Affect Mind
7: Dominate Mind
8: Force Valor(?)
9: Knight Speed
10: Imp. Energy Res(?)
11: Drain Life

Or you could swap Energy Res and Valor, or push the Mind powers back a level if you hit 8 before Korriban, etc.

Also, I think I'm confused now about DS points when entering the academy.  I didn't think persuading Yuthura gave DS points, and it doesn't seem to show up in Feedback. So... ???

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-05-26 08:06:36 pm

AlecK47: 2015-05-26 08:06:04 pm

AlecK47: 2015-05-26 07:38:03 pm

AlecK47: 2015-05-26 07:37:18 pm

AlecK47: 2015-05-26 07:36:26 pm

2015-05-26 07:36:05 pm

Scout is better for reasons beyond not needing the Sith Mask, but the detour to get the mask will at best be as fast as the detour to buy a Nerve Enhancement Package and recoup the credits spent. To elaborate, Scout is better than Soldier because you already get enough feats to make do, and Scout has better Reflex and Will (both are important) and more skills (Persuade for Korriban).

Dominate Mind is not at all necessary. Putting ranks in Persuade is already worth it for Yuthura, and with those ranks Lashowe is also much easier to convince. Being able to mash 1 for Juhani is a nice bonus as well.

The DSP is based on whether you use the [Persuade] or [Persuade/Lie] option when talking to Yuthura in order to gain entrance to the Sith Academy. The former gives DSP (one increment), and the latter is only available if you are Light Side at the time (blue background on the character screen). In-dialogue checks unfortunately never show up in feedback, and because the area unloads before you have a chance to see the little Dark Side icon in the upper left, you have to compare before and after in order to notice the shift.

Finally, you did remind me that I wanted to mess around with learning and reciting the Sith Code to see if something could be skipped, and it seems that either the Tomb of Ajunta Pall or the renegade Sith can be skipped. AP's Tomb is not only more consistent, but more profitable, so of the two options that's the one I'd keep. And for reference, AP's Tomb and the renegade Sith take roughly the same amount of time, assuming the RNG doesn't screw you over for the latter, as is often the case. As for replacing Yusanis's Duelling Shield, the credits from selling it are unnecessary if Manaan is done first, and the utility can be more or less replaced by Energy Resistance, or even another good energy shield of some sort (I got one on Manaan when I tested doing it first, but I'm not sure if it's 100%).

Edit: Skipping the renegade Sith makes the level up in Naga Sadow's Tomb less convenient, because it's all but guaranteed to happen during or after the fight against Uthar and Yuthura, and barring a stop at the Selkath merchant at the start of Manaan or something, medpacks are likely to be tight by then. That said, it's still faster.

Scout is better for reasons beyond not needing the Sith Mask, but the detour to get the mask will at best be as fast as the detour to buy a Nerve Enhancement Package and recoup the credits spent.  To elaborate, Scout is better than Soldier because you already get enough feats to make do, and Scout has better Reflex and Will (both are important) and more skills (Persuade for Korriban).

Dominate Mind is not at all necessary.  Putting ranks in Persuade is already worth it for Yuthura, and with those ranks Lashowe is also much easier to convince.  Being able to mash 1 for Juhani is a nice bonus as well.

The DSP is based on whether you use the [Persuade] or [Persuade/Lie] option when talking to Yuthura in order to gain entrance to the Sith Academy.  The former gives DSP (one increment), and the latter is only available if you are Light Side at the time (blue background on the character screen).  In-dialogue checks unfortunately never show up in feedback, and because the area unloads before you have a chance to see the little Dark Side icon in the upper left, you have to compare before and after in order to notice the shift.

Finally, you did remind me that I wanted to mess around with learning and reciting the Sith Code to see if something could be skipped, and it seems that either the Tomb of Ajunta Pall or the renegade Sith can be skipped.  AP's Tomb is not only more consistent, but more profitable, so of the two options that's the one I'd keep.  And for reference, AP's Tomb and the renegade Sith take roughly the same amount of time, assuming the RNG doesn't screw you over for the latter, as is often the case.  As for replacing Yusanis's Duelling Shield, the credits from selling it are unnecessary if Manaan is done first, and the utility can be more or less replaced by Energy Resistance, or even another good energy shield of some sort (I got one on Manaan when I tested doing it first, but I'm not sure if it's 100%).

Edit: Skipping the renegade Sith makes the level up in Naga Sadow's Tomb less convenient, because it's all but guaranteed to happen during or after the fight against Uthar and Yuthura, and barring a stop at the Selkath merchant at the start of Manaan or something, medpacks are likely to be tight by then.  That said, it's still faster.

indykenobi

2015-05-27 12:40:45 am

You call this archaeology?

I understand why Scout is preferable overall, I just wanted to point out that the FLU itself isn't strictly necessary for getting the Sith Mask in general. The Dominate Mind thing is just an idea I had from doing All Quests runs, but I agree that it's not useful for any%.

About buying the Nerve Enhancement Package from Zelka; couldn't you sell your Scout's starting Cardio Package? IIRC that's 400 credits, which mostly covers the 500 cost of the NEP. So you could skip the Tarisian noble and grab an extra corpse or two on Dantooine.

And last, if we're testing quests on Korriban it might be worth looking into the Mandalorian Weapons Cache or the Doubting Sith quest. Those might let you cut the tomb as well, but you would get some DS points or have to finish the Mandalorian quest LS, which requires Computer Skill. You can do Doubting Sith LS, but then can't turn it in to Uthar. Possibly the best thing to test there is doing Mandalorian DS, then canceling those DS with Doubting Sith LS if needed.

I understand why Scout is preferable overall, I just wanted to point out that the FLU itself isn't strictly necessary for getting the Sith Mask in general.  The Dominate Mind thing is just an idea I had from doing All Quests runs, but I agree that it's not useful for any%.

About buying the Nerve Enhancement Package from Zelka; couldn't you sell your Scout's starting Cardio Package?  IIRC that's 400 credits, which mostly covers the 500 cost of the NEP.  So you could skip the Tarisian noble and grab an extra corpse or two on Dantooine.

And last, if we're testing quests on Korriban it might be worth looking into the Mandalorian Weapons Cache or the Doubting Sith quest.  Those might let you cut the tomb as well, but you would get some DS points or have to finish the Mandalorian quest LS, which requires Computer Skill. You can do Doubting Sith LS, but then can't turn it in to Uthar.  Possibly the best thing to test there is doing Mandalorian DS, then canceling those DS with Doubting Sith LS if needed.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-05-27 04:30:34 pm

2015-05-27 04:30:00 pm

For some reason I thought that the class-specific piece of equipment would have some sort of value parity to it, so I overlooked the Cardio Package. And although it certainly helps, after doing a bit more analysis and testing, the credits from the Cardio Package alone aren't quite enough. For example, I looted the Tarisian noble's room when making my new set of practice saves, but I still would have had to sell something I'd really rather keep in order to be able to afford the fee on Manaan, which is non-negotiable, unfortunately. With Bastila and her lightsaber opening the door to the Tarisian noble's room, there's a good chance you'll have it open in one round, making the overall time loss around 15 seconds. However, I'd put the opportunity cost lower than that, not just because of the fact that it all but guarantees your money will be fine, but because you can skip grabbing 3-4 other things you might otherwise need. What it boils down to for me is essentially the choice between selling the Sigil crystal to save 5-10 seconds, or using it and getting more hits and damage on Korriban and Tatooine.

For the other Korriban quests, I can't even remember how to properly interrogate the Mandalorian, and if there's a way to complete the doubting Sith with neutral results, I'm unaware of it. The biggest hit I would feel comfortable taking there would be a single increment of DSP (for reference, the doubting Sith gives 2x). Perhaps it would be worth the time to just take the 2x hit and give the beggars in the Taris Undercity some money for LSP instead of save buffering to skip the conversation entirely, but I'm not sure.

And rounding out my research for today, I'm pretty sure that what triggers the game to send you back to Dantooine after the Leviathan is the dream skip on Dantooine. In other words, rather than using the Return to EH trick after your first conversation with the counsel, let it fade out, watch the ~10 second cutscene and save time later. I haven't been able to test this extensively because of the time required to do each test, but the conclusion has held up for me so far.

For some reason I thought that the class-specific piece of equipment would have some sort of value parity to it, so I overlooked the Cardio Package.  And although it certainly helps, after doing a bit more analysis and testing, the credits from the Cardio Package alone aren't quite enough.  For example, I looted the Tarisian noble's room when making my new set of practice saves, but I still would have had to sell something I'd really rather keep in order to be able to afford the fee on Manaan, which is non-negotiable, unfortunately.  With Bastila and her lightsaber opening the door to the Tarisian noble's room, there's a good chance you'll have it open in one round, making the overall time loss around 15 seconds.  However, I'd put the opportunity cost lower than that, not just because of the fact that it all but guarantees your money will be fine, but because you can skip grabbing 3-4 other things you might otherwise need.  What it boils down to for me is essentially the choice between selling the Sigil crystal to save 5-10 seconds, or using it and getting more hits and damage on Korriban and Tatooine.

For the other Korriban quests, I can't even remember how to properly interrogate the Mandalorian, and if there's a way to complete the doubting Sith with neutral results, I'm unaware of it.  The biggest hit I would feel comfortable taking there would be a single increment of DSP (for reference, the doubting Sith gives 2x).  Perhaps it would be worth the time to just take the 2x hit and give the beggars in the Taris Undercity some money for LSP instead of save buffering to skip the conversation entirely, but I'm not sure.

And rounding out my research for today, I'm pretty sure that what triggers the game to send you back to Dantooine after the Leviathan is the dream skip on Dantooine.  In other words, rather than using the Return to EH trick after your first conversation with the counsel, let it fade out, watch the ~10 second cutscene and save time later.  I haven't been able to test this extensively because of the time required to do each test, but the conclusion has held up for me so far.

indykenobi

2015-05-27 06:32:51 pm

You call this archaeology?

Okay, let me know if I say something wrong, but this is how I understand Korriban. You need 5 prestige points to get Uthar to take you to the tomb, and there are 10 points total available:

1. Reciting the Code of the Sith
2. Telling Uthar of Yuthura's Plot
3. The Doubting Sith
4. Finding The Mandalorian Weapons Cache
5. Killing Renegade Students
6. Killing the Rogue Droid
7. Getting the Sith Tablet
8. Getting Ajunta Pall's Sword
9. Getting the Jedi Holocron
10. Killing Lashowe

For The Weapons Cache, you can do it LS or DS:
Dark Side: Use the serum in this order: High Truth Serum, Small Anti-Serum, High Truth Serum. You then have to fight the interrogator (though you can just run away from him after triggering the fight). This is easily done but is two small DSP boosts, one for administering serum and one for choosing to fight the interrogator. You must trigger the fight if you want the prestige point.
Light Side: Persuade Check to get the Mandalorian to trust you, then Computer Skill Check to properly administer the serum. This is probably not feasible; not sure what the minimum Computer needed is, but I've had it fail at 10 Computer Skill (though it can succeed there too). You also don't seem to be able to use T3 to get around that. You can still get the prestige point for this though.

The Doubting Sith as you say is a 2x DSP boost for a prestige point, and you must pass a (relatively easy) Persuade Check. You can do this LS for one small LSP boost, but you can't get the prestige point if you do it that way.

So to skip Ajunta Pall's Tomb and keep enough LS points, you could do LS Doubting Sith and DS Mandalorian, but I think that would be slower than doing DS Doubting Sith and then picking up extra LS points on Taris. An alternative to giving the beggars credits is an Ithorian near the Upper City North apartments that spawns after you rescue Bastila. You can get 2 small LSP boosts from him; one for rescuing him from the kids, and another if you give him a medpac. He is slightly out of the way though.

A question about doing Manaan first: we have to pay the 100 credit docking fee because we don't have Affect Mind for the Force Persuade option? I don't know how tight the Force Power selection is but could you pick up Affect Mind early enough to save those 100 credits?

Sorry for all the questions and random ideas; I learned this as a Soldier, so I don't know enough of the details of the Scout/Manaan first route to know what's feasible and what isn't.

Also thanks for the info about the post-Leviathan Dantooine respawn; that was bugging me in All Quests, since spawning there glitches an already-completed quest into retriggering and becoming uncompletable.

Okay, let me know if I say something wrong, but this is how I understand Korriban.  You need 5 prestige points to get Uthar to take you to the tomb, and there are 10 points total available:

[hidden]1. Reciting the Code of the Sith
2. Telling Uthar of Yuthura's Plot
3. The Doubting Sith
4. Finding The Mandalorian Weapons Cache
5. Killing Renegade Students
6. Killing the Rogue Droid
7. Getting the Sith Tablet
8. Getting Ajunta Pall's Sword
9. Getting the Jedi Holocron
10. Killing Lashowe[/hidden]

For The Weapons Cache, you can do it LS or DS:
Dark Side: Use the serum in this order: High Truth Serum, Small Anti-Serum, High Truth Serum.  You then have to fight the interrogator (though you can just run away from him after triggering the fight).  This is easily done but is two small DSP boosts, one for administering serum and one for choosing to fight the interrogator.  You must trigger the fight if you want the prestige point.
Light Side: Persuade Check to get the Mandalorian to trust you, then Computer Skill Check to properly administer the serum.  This is probably not feasible; not sure what the minimum Computer needed is, but I've had it fail at 10 Computer Skill (though it can succeed there too). You also don't seem to be able to use T3 to get around that.  You can still get the prestige point for this though.

The Doubting Sith as you say is a 2x DSP boost for a prestige point, and you must pass a (relatively easy) Persuade Check.  You can do this LS for one small LSP boost, but you can't get the prestige point if you do it that way.

So to skip Ajunta Pall's Tomb and keep enough LS points, you could do LS Doubting Sith and DS Mandalorian, but I think that would be slower than doing DS Doubting Sith and then picking up extra LS points on Taris.  An alternative to giving the beggars credits is an Ithorian near the Upper City North apartments that spawns after you rescue Bastila.  You can get 2 small LSP boosts from him; one for rescuing him from the kids, and another if you give him a medpac.  He is slightly out of the way though.

A question about doing Manaan first: we have to pay the 100 credit docking fee because we don't have Affect Mind for the Force Persuade option? I don't know how tight the Force Power selection is but could you pick up Affect Mind early enough to save those 100 credits?

Sorry for all the questions and random ideas; I learned this as a Soldier, so I don't know enough of the details of the Scout/Manaan first route to know what's feasible and what isn't.

Also thanks for the info about the post-Leviathan Dantooine respawn; that was bugging me in All Quests, since spawning there glitches an already-completed quest into retriggering and becoming uncompletable.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-05-27 06:46:22 pm

2015-05-27 06:44:36 pm

Quote from indykenobi:

spawning there glitches an already-completed quest into retriggering and becoming uncompletable.

Sounds fun, lol.

You're dead on about prestige, though you have to actually say that you killed Lashowe - just doing it isn't enough.

I'm going to play around with Korriban some more, but not today. Once I do, I'll post my findings and opinions. And thanks for the info. Smiley

Does skipping the Manaan fee only require Affect Mind? I'll have to double check that. Having it would add a couple dialogues that automatically fail on Korriban, barring a slightly more technical dialogue path, but if Yuthura and Lashowe both cooperate that's less than a second anyway. On that note, I'm finding that it's probably worth adding points in Persuade up through level 7. I still don't know definitively how Persuade checks are handled, but I'm beginning to suspect it's less random than (Persuade mod + 1d20 vs. DC). edit: or at least effectively less random

indykenobi

Edit history:

indykenobi: 2015-05-27 06:53:29 pm

2015-05-27 06:51:22 pm

You call this archaeology?

Yeah, I knew about having to say you kill Lashowe only because to actually finish all the Korriban sidequests LS, you have to give Uthar the holocron and then lie about killing Lashowe. It's silly. Although now that I think about it I could probably tell Uthar about that quest last instead.

And I just double-checked, and Affect Mind is sufficient for the Force Persuade option to get into Ahto without paying the fee. So that might help a bit.

Edit: Also I just did Korriban by doing the four prestige points in the Academy and the students, and skipped Lashowe and the Valley completely. But I'm sure that's too many DSP to allow for the use of Solari.

AlecK47

2015-05-27 07:08:37 pm

Assuming things go well, persuading Lashowe, going to the far end of the valley and doing her quest would take about two minutes. When I timed it, I included the time to add and remove Juhani and Zalbaar and auto level everyone (main hit level 8 there).
The renegade Sith (with good luck) and Ajunta Pall's Tomb both take about 2 minutes, as well, but of course only yield one prestige.
Sith code is such a gimme that I don't care to even time it.
Tattling on Yuthura is even more of a gimme.

Those are the options for the five points needed for any% as it stands now, with the renegade Sith being the odd ones out because of randomness. Which leaves:

The doubting Sith: 2x DSP, but very fast and easy.
Mandalorian Cache: 2x DSP (getting Computer Use would take way too long), undetermined length.
And the other two tombs... both of which are significantly longer than other options.

You even have me thinking about ditching the Solari, so I'm definitely going to have to test and time a bunch of stuff.

Assuming things go well, persuading Lashowe, going to the far end of the valley and doing her quest would take about two minutes.  When I timed it, I included the time to add and remove Juhani and Zalbaar and auto level everyone (main hit level 8 there).
The renegade Sith (with good luck) and Ajunta Pall's Tomb both take about 2 minutes, as well, but of course only yield one prestige.
Sith code is such a gimme that I don't care to even time it.
Tattling on Yuthura is even more of a gimme.

Those are the options for the five points needed for any% as it stands now, with the renegade Sith being the odd ones out because of randomness.  Which leaves:

The doubting Sith: 2x DSP, but very fast and easy.
Mandalorian Cache:  2x DSP (getting Computer Use would take way too long), undetermined length.
And the other two tombs... both of which are significantly longer than other options.

You even have me thinking about ditching the Solari, so I'm definitely going to have to test and time a bunch of stuff.

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-05-27 08:37:15 pm

glasnonck: 2015-05-27 08:37:02 pm

2015-05-27 08:33:16 pm

I love all of these new ideas. I'm trying to compile them into a list just so I can remember when I do some more runs. I've been so busy that I still haven't read the entirety of the last 4 posts. Sad

If we're concerned about LSP, we can get +2 easily by opening the door to the republic soldiers in the Taris Clinic, since we're already shopping with Zelka. Although, if we decide to drop the Solari + stop trying for light side, we could probably save time in a couple of other places (most notably, on Korriban). Sapith would be nice, but I'm not sure where we can find it. According to Game Banshee, it's here: Unknown World (Temple of the Ancients Main Floor) - Found in rune covered pillar.

Here's a link to some information about persuasion checks. It's somewhat based on your level, so we may want to take that into account when considering switching the planet order. Korriban first may make the persuasion checks easier.

Edit: Oh yeah; the only way to get infinite light side points is by meeting Rahasia Sandral. Apparently you can refuse to help, which gives DSP, and then return again and again to apologize while still refusing to help for LSP. Unfortunately, if I remember correctly she's quite a bit out of the way.

I love all of these new ideas. I'm trying to compile them into a list just so I can remember when I do some more runs. I've been so busy that I still haven't read the entirety of the last 4 posts. :(

If we're concerned about LSP, we can get +2 easily by opening the door to the republic soldiers in the Taris Clinic, since we're already shopping with Zelka. Although, if we decide to drop the Solari + stop trying for light side, we could probably save time in a couple of other places (most notably, on Korriban). Sapith would be nice, but I'm not sure where we can find it. According to Game Banshee, it's here: Unknown World (Temple of the Ancients Main Floor) - Found in rune covered pillar.

Here's a [url="http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic/Skills#Persuade"]link[/url] to some information about persuasion checks. It's somewhat based on your level, so we may want to take that into account when considering switching the planet order. Korriban first may make the persuasion checks easier.

Edit: Oh yeah; the only way to get infinite light side points is by meeting Rahasia Sandral. Apparently you can refuse to help, which gives DSP, and then return again and again to apologize while still refusing to help for LSP. Unfortunately, if I remember correctly she's quite a bit out of the way.

AlecK47

2015-05-27 08:40:25 pm

That Persuade stuff is going to mean more math from me, and I don't feel like doing that while watching a basketball game.

Completely forgot that door behind Zelka did anything. Roll Eyes

Anyway, I'll do some timing and testing (and now math) over the next couple days, and come back with my results. I'll try to do a stream not long after that to explain the changes once things fall into place a bit more.

And Rahasia is indeed out of the way. I'm not sure exactly how much, but I'd be really surprised if it's less than a minute.

indykenobi

Edit history:

indykenobi: 2015-05-27 08:59:02 pm

indykenobi: 2015-05-27 08:55:57 pm

2015-05-27 08:53:10 pm

You call this archaeology?

Sapith is in a pillar behind some frag mines on the same map as the floor tile puzzle in the Temple Basement. I get it in my All Quests PB on my twitch channel if you want a to hunt up a video of it. It's very quick (~3s) but also very late in the run.

Zelka's door and the Ithorian would give 6 extra LS points all told (I think that's right), so if we did one or both that should be enough to switch a couple prestige points around. Another option is saving the Duros in the Sith Base on Taris; that's a pretty quick puzzle to solve. Not sure how many LS points that is (though my guess would be 2).

Rahasia is definitely too far out of the way for any%. The Sandral Estate is in the opposite corner from Juhani behind the Grove. Also you'd have to talk to Nurik (though you could get LS points if you do that after looting Casus' corpse). Also also she and Shen are annoying.