KotOR speedrun in just over 2 hours -- Knights of the Old Republic Done Quick

Edit history:

fnbigindian: 2015-01-28 11:44:44 pm

2015-01-28 11:43:31 pm

Ok so i was way too lazy to wait for a youtube video upload so i made a shitty gif showing what im doing. If you want me to make a more in-depth video i can. sorry for not having it loop i wanted it to be able to fit in the attachments.

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-01-29 03:12:56 pm

2015-01-29 02:42:00 pm

Yeah, this is a known trick we call "save teleporting", but it hasn't been fully explored. It is performed by moving with both mouse buttons, and then quick saving while still moving. I don't have access to multiple computers, but after discussing with another runner, I think its power is hardware dependent. Furthermore, it has more effectiveness later in the game, on manaan and lehon (rakata prime). It can save a lot of time if you get good teleports.

I used this trick a few times in my current kotor wr (timestamp 1:40:37), but I kept it to a minimum because I didn't want it to crash.

However, if you continually save like that, then kotor will start to eat up more and more memory. This is because it has a memory leak associated with quick saving. If you keep doing it, then you may eventually crash your game -- it crashed mine.

fnbigindian

2015-01-29 03:53:23 pm

alright i thought id share at least, i watched your run... damn thats so good. As far as running this game is concerned how many runs die due to crashes and the like, watching these videos kinda make me want to start running it.

glasnonck

2015-01-29 04:07:00 pm

Thanks for sharing what you found. If you wouldn't mind, I would be interested to know how much memory your computer has and the speed of your processor to see if the trick is related more to specific hardware. Also, how long had you been playing before you got these really good save teleports? I know Dr. Applesponge, another runner, was able to get them while he was on Taris, while I couldn't. Thanks!

Usually the game doesn't crash randomly, and I'm pretty careful about keeping the game from crashing, so it is rare that a run is jeopardized by a crash. However, if I try to run the game without resetting about halfway through, it will crash. The first thing that happens is the dialog skipping glitch -- dialog is fast forwarded through without any player input. Then, the game forgets about certain icons, replacing them with white boxes. At this point, the game will crash upon your next save or load. Through running the game on my pc, I've become accustomed to how far I can go before it crashes.

Thanks for sharing what you found. If you wouldn't mind, I would be interested to know how much memory your computer has and the speed of your processor to see if the trick is related more to specific hardware. Also, how long had you been playing before you got these really good save teleports? I know Dr. Applesponge, another runner, was able to get them while he was on Taris, while I couldn't. Thanks!

Usually the game doesn't crash randomly, and I'm pretty careful about keeping the game from crashing, so it is rare that a run is jeopardized by a crash. However, if I try to run the game without resetting about halfway through, it will crash. The first thing that happens is the dialog skipping glitch -- dialog is fast forwarded through without any player input. Then, the game forgets about certain icons, replacing them with white boxes. At this point, the game will crash upon your next save or load. Through running the game on my pc, I've become accustomed to how far I can go before it crashes.

fnbigindian

Edit history:

fnbigindian: 2015-01-29 04:31:00 pm

fnbigindian: 2015-01-29 04:29:26 pm

2015-01-29 04:27:23 pm

My Specs: Intel i7-3770k 3.50ghz - 12gb of ram (not sure which ddr pretty sure not the highest out) - AMD 7700 yeah this thing is like way over kill for any games right now, probs could get a new card but the 7700 will last for awhile. Funny enough ive always really loved both Kotors and go back to play them every once in awhile, and recently i saw that a group was trying to remake kotor 1 and was like dayum gotta play again. Im pretty sure i first discovered this when i got to tatooine and it kinda just happened, I was like HOLY FUCK I CAN FLY ACROSS THIS DESERT IN SECONDS. When i tried it on kashyyyk i would get super crazy teleports where i went really far. I think its only crashed on me once, but that wasn't really after doing it a whole bunch of times, im kinda surprised it didnt crash on kashyyyk at all cause i kinda spammed it.

Also yeah i found the dialog glitch happened alot more on kotor 2 for whatever reason it was really pervasive at times with no way of stopping it from happening, and yeah ive had that crash before with the boxes.

Another weird crash that i had was when i quicksaved but when i go to look at the save its just a white box and the save says 0hr 0min so i knew that it got corrupted somehow.

My Specs: Intel i7-3770k 3.50ghz - 12gb of ram (not sure which ddr pretty sure not the highest out) - AMD 7700 yeah this thing is like way over kill for any games right now, probs could get a new card but the 7700 will last for awhile. Funny enough ive always really loved both Kotors and go back to play them every once in awhile, and recently i saw that a group was trying to remake kotor 1 and was like dayum gotta play again. Im pretty sure i first discovered this when i got to tatooine and it kinda just happened, I was like HOLY FUCK I CAN FLY ACROSS THIS DESERT IN SECONDS. When i tried it on kashyyyk i would get super crazy teleports where i went really far. I think its only crashed on me once, but that wasn't really after doing it a whole bunch of times, im kinda surprised it didnt crash on kashyyyk at all cause i kinda spammed it.

Also yeah i found the dialog glitch happened alot more on kotor 2 for whatever reason it was really pervasive at times with no way of stopping it from happening, and yeah ive had that crash before with the boxes.

Another weird crash that i had was when i quicksaved but when i go to look at the save its just a white box and the save says 0hr 0min so i knew that it got corrupted somehow.

fnbigindian

2015-01-29 04:38:24 pm

If you want me to test more shit, I'm more than invested at this point so fire away.

glasnonck

2015-01-29 04:59:54 pm

The quicksave with a white box and a time of 0 is what happens if you save when the game wants to crash as I was describing. I don't think I've seen it in other places, but it is definitely a corrupted save.
Your computer has 3 times as much memory as mine does, so you can spam save teleports quite a bit more than I do. Your cpu is also about 1 GHz faster than mine. Maybe the distance you get is related to your clock speed?

There's a weird skip that can happen on the endar spire, but I've only ever gotten it once. You start the game, and get to the first fight with the sith troopers. Save at the start of the fight, kill the sith, reload the save, and walk back down the hall towards the starting room. This may cause the game to load the second level of the endar spire as if you've entered the loading zone. I really don't know what causes it. Maybe the game thinks the loading zone is in a different place. Maybe you trick the game into not knowing where your character is. It's really weird, and not likely to occur.

If you like, you could look into using a weird menu glitch. It involves opening a container and entering the menu at the same time. I use this glitch in KotOR 2 to perform fake level ups (timestamp 25:45 in my kotor 2 wr), and you can find a good guide for it on the kotor 2 (xbox) game faqs page. I know it is possible to start this glitch in KotOR 1, but I haven't tested it for anything else. (But it's on my to-do list!)

The quicksave with a white box and a time of 0 is what happens if you save when the game wants to crash as I was describing. I don't think I've seen it in other places, but it is definitely a corrupted save.
Your computer has 3 times as much memory as mine does, so you can spam save teleports quite a bit more than I do. Your cpu is also about 1 GHz faster than mine. Maybe the distance you get is related to your clock speed?

There's a weird skip that can happen on the endar spire, but I've only ever gotten it once. You start the game, and get to the first fight with the sith troopers. Save at the start of the fight, kill the sith, reload the save, and walk back down the hall towards the starting room. This may cause the game to load the second level of the endar spire as if you've entered the loading zone. I really don't know what causes it. Maybe the game thinks the loading zone is in a different place. Maybe you trick the game into not knowing where your character is. It's really weird, and not likely to occur.

If you like, you could look into using a weird menu glitch. It involves opening a container and entering the menu at the same time. I use this glitch in KotOR 2 to perform fake level ups (timestamp [url=http://www.twitch.tv/glasnonck/c/5950444]25:45[/url] in my kotor 2 wr), and you can find a good guide for it on the kotor 2 (xbox) game faqs page. I know it is possible to start this glitch in KotOR 1, but I haven't tested it for anything else. (But it's on my to-do list!)

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-02-13 12:53:20 pm

glasnonck: 2015-02-13 12:52:41 pm

glasnonck: 2015-02-03 06:18:20 pm

glasnonck: 2015-02-03 06:14:37 pm

glasnonck: 2015-02-03 05:45:43 pm

glasnonck: 2015-02-03 05:42:49 pm

glasnonck: 2015-02-03 05:11:57 pm

glasnonck: 2015-02-03 04:21:27 pm

2015-02-03 04:19:15 pm

So I've found an easier way to perform the fake level up glitch, although most of the credit goes to people who were exploring it in KotOR 2 about 10 years ago. Here's a link to a FAQ that describes the glitch in detail for KotOR 2 for Xbox. This link leads to a description of the old method for FLU, but has some good information about the restrictions regarding feats and powers. link to a video demonstration

Here's how to perform the glitch on PC for leveling a specific, not player, character. (I haven't tested this with the player character yet.)

Required Keybindings
Default Action
Change Leader

Setup
1. The initiating character (I.C.), i.e. the one you want to level, must be at a level up to an attribute level (multiples of 4). Also, the main character (M.C.) must be at a similar level as the I.C. Make sure that the M.C. is not ready to level up.

2. Find a container and open it with the I.C. Immediately before the container dialog appears, open the character info screen (the one that says you can level up). If you do this correctly, you will see the character info screen and the container dialog at the same time. If you are too late, then you'll need to try again. If you are too early, then you can buffer it by using the keyboard to switch to another menu, close that menu, and open the character screen again.

3. Close the container dialog however you like, and start your level up. As a reminder, this should be an attribute level up for the I.C.

Fake Level Up
4. Press the change leader button. You should see the I.C. disappear from the character window.

5. Complete the level up while taking note of the attribute you give a point to and saving up skill points. NOTE: you may have to complete the level up with only mouse inputs.

6. Switch back to the I.C. using the "change leader" button.

7. Now continue leveling the I.C. until you reach another attribute level. This does NOT have to be the next attribute level in sequence.
– NOTE: on every attribute level you bypass, be sure to add the point to the same attribute you did on the initial level up.

8. To "land" the fake level up, simply add a point to any attribute other than the one you started with. Finish the level up by distributing skills as you see fit and getting feats or powers that you may want your character to posses. (Some restrictions apply to obtaining feats and powers.)

9. You should see that your character is now leveled up to the attribute level that we started with. Check the skills and feats menu to make sure you obtained all of the benefits of the FLU.

10. Close the menu, (quick) save and (quick) load, and go on your way.

Example
-- In KotOR 1, I use fake level ups to increase T3-M4's security skill so he can open a door and footlocker in the sith academy on Korriban. To get the FLU to work, my M.C. is at Soldier level 5 and Jedi Guardian level 2 with no level up available. T3 is at level 3 with 3 level ups available. I use the level 4 attribute level to start the FLU and continue leveling until level 12. After the FLU, T3 is at level 4 with 2 level ups available.

So I've found an easier way to perform the fake level up glitch, although most of the credit goes to people who were exploring it in KotOR 2 about 10 years ago. Here's a [url=http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox/920194-star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-ii-the-sith/faqs/35499]link[/url] to a FAQ that describes the glitch in detail for KotOR 2 for Xbox. This [url=http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/516675-star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic/faqs/25981]link[/url] leads to a description of the old method for FLU, but has some good information about the restrictions regarding feats and powers. [url=http://youtu.be/_T917xs3hAc]link to a video demonstration[/url]

Here's how to perform the glitch on PC for leveling a specific, not player, character. (I haven't tested this with the player character yet.)
[hidden]
    [u]Required Keybindings[/u]
Default Action
Change Leader

[u]Setup[/u]
1. The initiating character (I.C.), i.e. the one you want to level, must be at a level up to an attribute level (multiples of 4). Also, the main character (M.C.) must be at a similar level as the I.C. Make sure that the M.C. is not ready to level up.

2. Find a container and open it with the I.C. Immediately before the container dialog appears, open the character info screen (the one that says you can level up). If you do this correctly, you will see the character info screen and the container dialog at the same time. If you are too late, then you'll need to try again. If you are too early, then you can buffer it by using the keyboard to switch to another menu, close that menu, and open the character screen again.

3. Close the container dialog however you like, and start your level up. As a reminder, this should be an attribute level up for the I.C.

[u]Fake Level Up[/u]
4. Press the change leader button. You should see the I.C. disappear from the character window.

5. Complete the level up while taking note of the attribute you give a point to and saving up skill points. NOTE: you may have to complete the level up with only mouse inputs.

6. Switch back to the I.C. using the "change leader" button.

7. Now continue leveling the I.C. until you reach another attribute level. This does NOT have to be the next attribute level in sequence.
 – NOTE: on every attribute level you bypass, be sure to add the point to the same attribute you did on the initial level up.

8. To "land" the fake level up, simply add a point to any attribute other than the one you started with. Finish the level up by distributing skills as you see fit and getting feats or powers that you may want your character to posses. (Some restrictions apply to obtaining feats and powers.)

9. You should see that your character is now leveled up to the attribute level that we started with. Check the skills and feats menu to make sure you obtained all of the benefits of the FLU.

10. Close the menu, (quick) save and (quick) load, and go on your way.

[u]Example[/u]
-- In KotOR 1, I use fake level ups to increase T3-M4's security skill so he can open a door and footlocker in the sith academy on Korriban. To get the FLU to work, my M.C. is at Soldier level 5 and Jedi Guardian level 2 with no level up available. T3 is at level 3 with 3 level ups available. I use the level 4 attribute level to start the FLU and continue leveling until level 12. After the FLU, T3 is at level 4 with 2 level ups available.
[/hidden]

gammadragon

2015-02-13 02:05:58 pm

Might be magic...

That's a nice glitch, could be useful for 100% heals with a single stimpack?

glasnonck

2015-02-13 03:49:04 pm

Usually health isn't too much of a problem, but it could be used for that purpose. If this was used to boost the player character, I would probably suggest adding points to persuade to make Korriban a bit more consistent. Below is the calculations for healing items.

Unless the glitch allows you to reach higher attribute levels, then the max level you can go to is 20. Therefore, the maximum points you can have in a skill is 23 (not including attribute, feat, or power modifiers).

Basic Medpac: 10 + Wisdom Modifier + Treat Injury = 33 (~ lvl 3 soldier / guardian)
Advanced Medpac: 20 + Wisdom Modifier + 2 * Treat Injury = 66 (~ lvl 7 soldier / guardian)
Life Support Pack: 30 + Wisdom Modifier + 3 * Treat Injury = 99 (~ lvl 10 soldier / guardian)

As a side note, Attribute Modifiers are calculated as follows: (Attribute - 10) / 2.

AlecK47

2015-02-14 06:08:49 pm

I haven't messed around with save teleporting yet, in large part because I'm still trying to get my desktop working (hardware is fine, just need to figure out new ASUS BIOS now, which is what's causing my current issues, but shouldn't be too bad once I have the time), but once I have a chance to I will. I'll also post my specs when I have access to my desktop's control panel...

I already intended play around with the fake level up glitch for RPGLB, if nothing else. There are a couple sections that worry me for health and such (especially on Korriban, which is convenient for reasons glasnonck just mentioned), so I'll probably use it for safety's sake if nothing else. I'm also considering using it to get Force Storm if Dark Side wins over Light Side (which I pretty much expect... seriously, they do have some damn good cookies Wink

), just so it can be shown off and I can say "UNLIMITED POWER!!!!"

glasnonck

2015-02-14 08:17:31 pm

I'd have to agree with the dark side winning out. I do have a question, though: how are you defining the dark side category? Simply dark side ending, or "pure dark side" like the one in SDA's listing?

As an aside, that's why I have stayed away from dark side so far: I don't find full DS points too interesting, and DS ending doesn't seem different enough to be considered another category...

I'll look into using FLU for safety and dark side powers. You could buff yourself after rescuing Bastila, since at that point you'll be leveling up to an attribute level (4) and there are footlockers in some of the apartments nearby.

AlecK47

2015-02-14 09:37:26 pm

As dark side as I can reasonably get it (to account for minor menuing mishaps), with the main thing being the dark side ending. Ironically one of the things I said in my first SDA post on the "introduce yourself" thread suggested that I might do a dark side run to match thinkshooter's light side one (at the time) - and possibly the same with KotOR 2. Not sure if I'll still do that, but if you want to discuss the things that would make each ending distinctly different in terms of the run itself for either game, I'm down.

I hadn't looked into exactly where I would false level yet (mainly because of computer problems, as I mentioned), but if you hit level 4 just after getting Bastila, that would be pretty nice.

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-02-19 08:04:52 pm

2015-02-15 08:45:57 pm

I'm really not too sure what would make dark side to much different. Even full dark side points can be achieved simply by a glitch involving the stowaway -- tell her to get off your ship over and over, stopping her from running away just to tell her to get off again. One way to get me interested in running dark side would be to become the worst person in existence by maximizing the number of party members you kill off. So, kill Juhani, kill Jolee, have Zaalbar kill Mission, then kill Zaalbar, and kill Carth (thus restricting it to a female only run). It would force you to talk to at least Carth during the run.

Of course, that could be just one possible version of the dark side category.

EDIT: Alternately, we could restrict the force powers to alignment specific. It wouldn't really affect the light side run (just replace force drain with throw lightsaber or stun droid), but it would force the Dark Side run to have a different approach to powering yourself up (since you then couldn't use Force Valor).

I'm really not too sure what would make dark side to much different. Even full dark side points can be achieved simply by a glitch involving the stowaway -- tell her to get off your ship over and over, stopping her from running away just to tell her to get off again. One way to get [b]me[/b] interested in running dark side would be to become the [u]worst person in existence[/u] by maximizing the number of party members you kill off. So, kill Juhani, kill Jolee, have Zaalbar kill Mission, then kill Zaalbar, and kill Carth (thus restricting it to a female only run). It would force you to talk to at least Carth during the run.

Of course, that could be just one possible version of the dark side category.

EDIT: Alternately, we could restrict the force powers to alignment specific. It wouldn't really affect the light side run (just replace force drain with throw lightsaber or stun droid), but it would force the Dark Side run to have a different approach to powering yourself up (since you then couldn't use Force Valor).

glasnonck

2015-03-04 07:49:40 pm

I thought I'd mention here that I've made a LiveSplit plugins for both KotOR 1 and KotOR 2 that remove loading and saving time. A big thanks to DrTChops for his help on them. They work alright, but they're not perfect yet. I've noticed a couple inconsistencies that I'll be working on fixing in the near future.

One question I have about timing, though. Should the game timer be paused if the game is turned off during a run? I feel like it shouldn't be, but I'm open to other ideas. Currently the plugin is inconsistent about this.

Also, if anyone has an opinion as weather there should be a real distinction between dark side and light side runs, please let me know. I don't know if just getting a different ending would be enough to constitute a separate category. As such, I currently only have any% listed on the speedrun.com leaderboard (force alignment is indicated as a separate variable, though).

glasnonck

2015-04-06 07:45:29 pm

I've done a bit of testing on enhancing the effectiveness of save buffers, although I plan to do additional testing. From what it seems, the more the game lags during the save, the further you are teleported. Furthermore, limiting the framerate has different effects as well.

Without v-sync (no frame cap) I was unable to get any save teleports.
At 60 fps (normal for steam version with v-sync) I get a moderate distance.
At 25-30 fps (limited with Dxtory) I got almost twice the distance from 60 fps.

A Twitch user by the name of Barboga found that, in some situations, you can get this teleporting behavior by opening and closing the character menu quickly. Here's a link to his video demonstration.

I've been messing around with the console version as well, and I'll occasionally get a short teleport from the game simply lagging. That makes me think the cause may be similar to what's happening in DK64 with orange clipping: the game accelerates your character to compensate for the reduced framerate. However, using the console version would be a bad idea, since it only allows you to skip dialogue after about 2 seconds.

I've done a bit of testing on enhancing the effectiveness of save buffers, although I plan to do additional testing. From what it seems, the more the game lags during the save, the further you are teleported. Furthermore, limiting the framerate has different effects as well.

Without v-sync (no frame cap) I was unable to get any save teleports.
At 60 fps (normal for steam version with v-sync) I get a moderate distance.
At 25-30 fps (limited with Dxtory) I got almost twice the distance from 60 fps.

A Twitch user by the name of Barboga found that, in some situations, you can get this teleporting behavior by opening and closing the character menu quickly. Here's a [url=https://youtu.be/sshm31g_OA4]link[/url] to his video demonstration.

I've been messing around with the console version as well, and I'll occasionally get a short teleport from the game simply lagging. That makes me think the cause may be similar to what's happening in DK64 with orange clipping: the game accelerates your character to compensate for the reduced framerate. However, using the console version would be a bad idea, since it only allows you to skip dialogue after about 2 seconds.

AlecK47

2015-04-22 04:26:34 pm

I've been weighing the benefits of FLU on the main character for a while now, and I think it may be worth doing it at least once, and perhaps even twice for a marathon run. Getting Persuade for Korriban especially is really, really nice, as is getting Master Two Weapon Fighting for the Sith Base on Taris. I'm not sure how many Persuade ranks would be ideal, but in order to test it better, I'm going to have to do some extra stuff on Dantooine to hit level 8 just before I leave (I think I have a project for tonight...).

The basic idea is pretty simple: FLU the main character in the Sith Base on Taris on the footlocker with the key card (should be ready to hit level 4 there) to get Master Two Weapon Fighting and points in Persuade - which unfortunately is cross class until you become a Jedi, but otherwise the planet order would have to change. Ideally you will be able to get enough ranks by level 12, just for the sake of speed, but so far I've only tried it going to level 20. A second FLU later would not be worth the time for normal attempts, but for a marathon run it might be nice to have Master Speed and Master Flurry (not that it's even remotely necessary).

So here's one thought: on character creation, switch the 10 in WIS to a 10 in INT to gain an extra skill point per level. Thanks especially to FLU, the benefits will add up really fast, and WIS getting those points is essentially an afterthought anyway (you can't get more STR, and could only get one point for DEX or CON, which will never get points added to them on level up, so why not get a 5% better chance to make Will saves?). The tradeoff is that you'd be more susceptible to effects like the Sith governor's Fear (though he dies pretty reliably if you have M2WF) and the flamethrowers in the Dantooine ruins - though it's only a 5% worse chance than you'd have otherwise. The difference in force points would be negligible.

But is it faster? Honestly, it might be, assuming you aren't too slow on the FLU. Fights would be faster, persuade checks would actually be reliable, and with the extra INT, you'd have much better Treat Injury, as well. It would be really hard to tell if it's actually faster, given how situational most of the benefits are, but if nothing else the run should be much more consistent.

Also save teleports have refused to work for me thus far, but I haven't tried limiting the framerate yet (well, not with an outside program, as you'd need to...). Good thing they aren't strictly necessary.

I've been weighing the benefits of FLU on the main character for a while now, and I think it may be worth doing it at least once, and perhaps even twice for a marathon run.  Getting Persuade for Korriban especially is really, really nice, as is getting Master Two Weapon Fighting for the Sith Base on Taris.  I'm not sure how many Persuade ranks would be ideal, but in order to test it better, I'm going to have to do some extra stuff on Dantooine to hit level 8 just before I leave (I think I have a project for tonight...).

The basic idea is pretty simple: FLU the main character in the Sith Base on Taris on the footlocker with the key card (should be ready to hit level 4 there) to get Master Two Weapon Fighting and points in Persuade - which unfortunately is cross class until you become a Jedi, but otherwise the planet order would have to change.  Ideally you will be able to get enough ranks by level 12, just for the sake of speed, but so far I've only tried it going to level 20.  A second FLU later would not be worth the time for normal attempts, but for a marathon run it might be nice to have Master Speed and Master Flurry (not that it's even remotely necessary).

So here's one thought: on character creation, switch the 10 in WIS to a 10 in INT to gain an extra skill point per level.  Thanks especially to FLU, the benefits will add up really fast, and WIS getting those points is essentially an afterthought anyway (you can't get more STR, and could only get one point for DEX or CON, which will never get points added to them on level up, so why not get a 5% better chance to make Will saves?).  The tradeoff is that you'd be more susceptible to effects like the Sith governor's Fear (though he dies pretty reliably if you have M2WF) and the flamethrowers in the Dantooine ruins - though it's only a 5% worse chance than you'd have otherwise.  The difference in force points would be negligible.

But is it faster?  Honestly, it might be, assuming you aren't too slow on the FLU.  Fights would be faster, persuade checks would actually be reliable, and with the extra INT, you'd have much better Treat Injury, as well.  It would be really hard to tell if it's actually faster, given how situational most of the benefits are, but if nothing else the run should be much more consistent.

Also save teleports have refused to work for me thus far, but I haven't tried limiting the framerate yet (well, not with an outside program, as you'd need to...).  Good thing they aren't strictly necessary.

glasnonck

2015-04-22 05:22:44 pm

I agree that it may end up being useful. I'm looking into a way of performing a FLU as in KotOR 2, so it can be easier and possibly faster. My idea involves using Carth to power level the MC at some point after the swoop race. That'll allow us to get skill points pretty easily without changing our class, which would make us unable to become a jedi later.

Another idea would be to play as a scoundrel, FLU with Mission and get a very high sneak attack, and then become a jedi guardian to profit off of the sneak attack bonus which is applied to your force jumps. I haven't really thought this too far through, though, since that would reduce your health to about 1/3 of what it is now.

If you wanted to, you could cross class to a jedi sentinel from the very start using Bastila. You would have a lot more force powers, but I don't think this would improve your overall damage or speed -- no force jump.

Concerning the character creation, switching 10 in WIS to 10 in INT will not give you additional skill points. Each level up, you Soldiers are given 1 + (IM / 2) skill points, where IM is your intelligence modifier. The minimum number of skill points you get is always 1, so it doesn't change anything. So having 2 more INT wouldn't give you any more skill points, but I could see switching the 2 points in WIS to CHA, since that would give you the extra force point every level as well as making persuade start at 0 instead of -1.

Having the two points in WIS gives 5% better chance of Will saves, as you said, which doesn't help against much after you get the Sith Mask of Stabilizer Mask. It would help against Force Whirlwind, Drain Life, Shock, Wound, and Stasis, but Charisma would help equally in that case.

On the topic of save teleports, I've been going back and forth on whether there should be restrictions about using save teleports since they seem to be hardware dependent. However, I haven't come to a conclusion yet because there aren't very many people running this game... Let me know what you think.

I agree that it may end up being useful. I'm looking into a way of performing a FLU as in KotOR 2, so it can be easier and possibly faster. My idea involves using Carth to power level the MC at some point after the swoop race. That'll allow us to get skill points pretty easily without changing our class, which would make us unable to become a jedi later.

Another idea would be to play as a scoundrel, FLU with Mission and get a very high sneak attack, and then become a jedi guardian to profit off of the sneak attack bonus which is applied to your force jumps. I haven't really thought this too far through, though, since that would reduce your health to about 1/3 of what it is now.

If you wanted to, you could cross class to a jedi sentinel from the very start using Bastila. You would have a lot more force powers, but I don't think this would improve your overall damage or speed -- no force jump.

Concerning the character creation, switching 10 in WIS to 10 in INT will not give you additional skill points. Each level up, you Soldiers are given 1 + (IM / 2) skill points, where IM is your intelligence modifier. The minimum number of skill points you get is always 1, so it doesn't change anything. So having 2 more INT wouldn't give you any more skill points, but I could see switching the 2 points in WIS to CHA, since that would give you the extra force point every level as well as making persuade start at 0 instead of -1.

Having the two points in WIS gives 5% better chance of Will saves, as you said, which doesn't help against much after you get the Sith Mask of Stabilizer Mask. It would help against Force Whirlwind, Drain Life, Shock, Wound, and Stasis, but Charisma would help equally in that case.

On the topic of save teleports, I've been going back and forth on whether there should be restrictions about using save teleports since they seem to be hardware dependent. However, I haven't come to a conclusion yet because there aren't very many people running this game... Let me know what you think.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 06:51:49 pm

2015-04-22 06:50:32 pm

For some reason I thought it was 2+INT for a Soldier. Apparently I've forgotten more of the KotOR mechanics than I realized. Naturally I realized it as soon as I tried to make a new character, but I wanted to test persuade stuff first. CHA does start to seem like the best option, though.

It seems 4 ranks is enough for reliability (the number an early FLU to 12 would give on its own, so no need to add ranks as a Jedi), at least with a couple quicksaves for safety. Yuthura was a 60% success rate, and for Lashowe (who has walled me for minutes before) it took a mean of 3.15 attempts, a median of 3, and a maximum of 9. I only tested each one 20 times but the results were an obvious and drastic improvement for me. I may drop the first rank or two as a Jedi in Persuade anyway.

Regarding other classes, I'd want to run some numbers first, but I'm very much inclined to stick with Guardian. Scout or Scoundrel could be useful, especially since their lower attack bonus wouldn't matter as much with the early Master 2 Weapon feat (and the initial two feats in the tree can both be taken during the FLU, which is nice).

When I test the game at a lower framerate I will let you know how save teleports work. For SDA's purposes it would clearly be allowed, but maybe ban it for races? More data needed.

For some reason I thought it was 2+INT for a Soldier.  Apparently I've forgotten more of the KotOR mechanics than I realized.  Naturally I realized it as soon as I tried to make a new character, but I wanted to test persuade stuff first.  CHA does start to seem like the best option, though.

It seems 4 ranks is enough for reliability (the number an early FLU to 12 would give on its own, so no need to add ranks as a Jedi), at least with a couple quicksaves for safety.  Yuthura was a 60% success rate, and for Lashowe (who has walled me for minutes before) it took a mean of 3.15 attempts, a median of 3, and a maximum of 9.  I only tested each one 20 times but the results were an obvious and drastic improvement for me.  I may drop the first rank or two as a Jedi in Persuade anyway.

Regarding other classes, I'd want to run some numbers first, but I'm very much inclined to stick with Guardian.  Scout or Scoundrel could be useful, especially since their lower attack bonus wouldn't matter as much with the early Master 2 Weapon feat (and the initial two feats in the tree can both be taken during the FLU, which is nice).

When I test the game at a lower framerate I will let you know how save teleports work.  For SDA's purposes it would clearly be allowed, but maybe ban it for races?  More data needed.

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-04-22 07:22:12 pm

glasnonck: 2015-04-22 07:21:16 pm

2015-04-22 07:17:38 pm

Was that 4 ranks in persuade after all modifiers?

I just tested playing as a scoundrel and doing the same sort of FLU as in KotOR 2. Unfortunately, the restrictions as I understand them pretty much only allow you to get some skill points and a 3rd rank feat. That does, actually, help by giving you 4 feats by level 5 instead of the usual / intended 3.

I also tried to do the easy FLU as a Soldier with Carth, but I wasn't able to find a way to get it to work since Carth is 1 level ahead of you -- the characters must be of the same (or similar) level.

I don't know where your getting your numbers, but the Strategy Wiki might help you out. I'm pretty sure all of the information there is accurate.

Changing classes might be okay. Unfortunately, changing to a scoundrel would drop your attack by 2, your health by 20, and switch your primary saving throw from Fortitude to Reflex. Unless you could find a really good benefit, which would likely be skill points, I doubt it would be consistently better.

I do like the idea of banning save teleports for races, and more data would hopefully help us find a nice solution.

Was that 4 ranks in persuade after all modifiers?

I just tested playing as a scoundrel and doing the same sort of FLU as in KotOR 2. Unfortunately, the restrictions as I understand them pretty much only allow you to get some skill points and a 3rd rank feat. That does, actually, help by giving you 4 feats by level 5 instead of the usual / intended 3.

I also tried to do the easy FLU as a Soldier with Carth, but I wasn't able to find a way to get it to work since Carth is 1 level ahead of you -- the characters must be of the same (or similar) level.

I don't know where your getting your numbers, but the [url=http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic/Classes]Strategy Wiki[/url] might help you out. I'm pretty sure all of the information there is accurate.

Changing classes might be okay. Unfortunately, changing to a scoundrel would drop your attack by 2, your health by 20, and switch your primary saving throw from Fortitude to Reflex. Unless you could find a really good benefit, which would likely be skill points, I doubt it would be consistently better.

I do like the idea of banning save teleports for races, and more data would hopefully help us find a nice solution.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 08:08:06 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 07:56:04 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 07:55:46 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 07:51:08 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 07:50:45 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 07:47:54 pm

2015-04-22 07:23:14 pm

Four cross class ranks, so it took eight points. And I was getting my numbers straight from my memory, hence the mistake. I'm doing some theorycrafting right now, as well, so I should have some thoughts to edit in here in a few minutes.

Edit: A quick pro/con, assuming FLU at level 4. I'm really liking Scout now.
Soldier
Most HP and +1 more attack, and Treat Injury is in class. That's effectively it.

Scout
Good: Nearly as much HP, gets Flurry for free and ALL saves are good. Can take two of Conditioning, Toughness and Empathy at levels 2 and 3. Treat Injury is in class, and it gets 2 skill points per level at 8 INT, meaning Persuade can also be maxed.
Bad: No feat at level four for Improved Flurry and class-inherent feats are worthless unless we add an implant to the route.

Scoundrel
Good: Gets an inherent +2 to defense, sneak attack (2-12 when ditched for Guardian).
Bad: No feat at level four for Improved Flurry, and only one "extra" feat besides. Fewest HP, reflex is its only good save, Treat Injury is cross class, and even at 8 INT it gives one more skill point per level than is really necessary.

Edit 2: After looking for a bit I don't see anything about CHA adding to Will; I seem to remember something like that, but it must be a KotOR II thing, I guess. And given the results of my testing earlier, the +8 or +7 (depending on Empathy) you could get with cross class Persuade is plenty (7 max cross class at level 12, CHA neutral after Valor).

Four cross class ranks, so it took eight points.  And I was getting my numbers straight from my memory, hence the mistake.  I'm doing some theorycrafting right now, as well, so I should have some thoughts to edit in here in a few minutes.

Edit: A quick pro/con, assuming FLU at level 4.  I'm really liking Scout now.
[b]Soldier[/b]
Most HP and +1 more attack, and Treat Injury is in class.  That's effectively it.

[b]Scout[/b]
Good: Nearly as much HP, gets Flurry for free and ALL saves are good.  Can take two of Conditioning, Toughness and Empathy at levels 2 and 3.  Treat Injury is in class, and it gets 2 skill points per level at 8 INT, meaning Persuade can also be maxed.
Bad: No feat at level four for Improved Flurry and class-inherent feats are worthless unless we add an implant to the route.

[b]Scoundrel[/b]
Good: Gets an inherent +2 to defense, sneak attack (2-12 when ditched for Guardian).
Bad: No feat at level four for Improved Flurry, and only one "extra" feat besides. Fewest HP, reflex is its only good save, Treat Injury is cross class, and even at 8 INT it gives one more skill point per level than is really necessary.

Edit 2:  After looking for a bit I don't see anything about CHA adding to Will; I seem to remember something like that, but it must be a KotOR II thing, I guess.  And given the results of my testing earlier, the +8 or +7 (depending on Empathy) you could get with cross class Persuade is plenty (7 max cross class at level 12, CHA neutral after Valor).

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-04-22 09:40:23 pm

glasnonck: 2015-04-22 08:39:27 pm

2015-04-22 08:38:51 pm

The Soldier will have +2 more attack on either other class by level 5, as well as 1 more feat.

If you FLU with the Scout when going to level 4, you may (I haven't tested it yet) be able to get a feat that level, which would allow the Scout to have 5 feats at level 5. I'm haven't looked to see if there are any good implants on the route yet, but the ones I know of are just the low ranking ones: reflex and cardio packages. I think there's one more on Korriban that I'm forgetting. You'll end up with rank 2 implants at level 4, and we could use a feat later to get rank 3 implants if we found a good implant along the route.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize you were already counting the FLU feat at level 4 for Scout.

I'm really liking Scout. I'll have to look into it once I get enough time to do full runs again.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 10:03:12 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 09:56:05 pm

AlecK47: 2015-04-22 09:54:33 pm

2015-04-22 08:52:03 pm

The level 4 thing is mostly about having Improved Flurry against the Battle Droid and Sith Governor.

Another possibility would be to save level 5 until you become a Jedi, though I can't recall what that does to your XP.

I think I'm going to remake all my RPGLB practice saves as a Scout now, though, so I'll be on the lookout for good implants.

Edit: I only just realized that you won't get a feat at any stat level as a Scout... which is obviously unfortunate for FLU purposes. And Scoundrel has to stop at either 8 or 20.

Edit 2: I think that just makes Scoundrel the clear winner, though. You can stop at level 8, and because Persuade is in class, you could have up to 11 ranks. The low HP is unfortunate, but that's what the extra defense is for, at least in theory. Not getting more extra feats or access to implants is unfortunate, but I'd still say it's better than Soldier. Maybe that will change when I try it out, but we'll see.

glasnonck

Edit history:

glasnonck: 2015-04-26 10:29:01 am

glasnonck: 2015-04-22 10:27:36 pm

glasnonck: 2015-04-22 10:25:52 pm

2015-04-22 10:20:18 pm

Edit: You will almost always end up at level 5 after destroying the Battle Droid, so even if you don't use a FLU, you'll have Improved Flurry or TWF for the Sith Governor.

Yeah. No feats at an attribute level as Scout, which messes up the easier FLU. I think you can still do the more difficult one, though. I know that there's a mind-affecting immunity implant (lvl 2), so if there's a useful replacement mask the Scout may have something else to consider. Edit2: I was wrong. The implant that I was thinking of grants immunity to critical hits.

As Scoundrel, you can do the easy FLU with Mission, but if you want a good feat you'll have to go all the way to level 20 (she starts at level 4 without flurry or twf). That's not too bad, although you don't get ALL of the skill points from the FLU. Also, you can't put points into Persuade since she's not the main character. I've done a (blasters only) run as Scoundrel using the difficult FLU to get the highest sneak attack. Although the run died at Malak (I didn't have any mines), the strategy was really good for blasters. I'm wondering if the Scoundrel will make much of a difference for a regular run.

I don't think the low health is too much of a problem, especially on easy. You'll have quite a bit of defense to help out. I'm interested to see what happens with these ideas.

Edit: You will almost always end up at level 5 after destroying the Battle Droid, so even if you don't use a FLU, you'll have Improved Flurry or TWF for the Sith Governor.

Yeah. No feats at an attribute level as Scout, which messes up the easier FLU. I think you can still do the more difficult one, though. I know that there's a mind-affecting immunity implant (lvl 2), so if there's a useful replacement mask the Scout may have something else to consider. Edit2: I was wrong. The implant that I was thinking of grants immunity to critical hits.

As Scoundrel, you can do the easy FLU with Mission, but if you want a good feat you'll have to go all the way to level 20 (she starts at level 4 without flurry or twf). That's not too bad, although you don't get ALL of the skill points from the FLU. Also, you can't put points into Persuade since she's not the main character. I've done a (blasters only) run as Scoundrel using the difficult FLU to get the highest sneak attack. Although the run died at Malak (I didn't have any mines), the strategy was really good for blasters. I'm wondering if the Scoundrel will make much of a difference for a regular run.

I don't think the low health is too much of a problem, especially on easy. You'll have quite a bit of defense to help out. I'm interested to see what happens with these ideas.

AlecK47

2015-04-22 10:36:30 pm

Well, in my first set of practice saves, I'm 75 XP short, so I didn't want to assume. Maybe it's worth it to kill a random enemy or two somewhere along the line to make it more of a sure thing for other classes. That lower penalty to hit from Improved Flurry definitely helps.