Duke Nukem 3D: Megaton Edition

2015-01-23 11:51:45 pm

Quote from TheBlackParrot:

100%'s down to 27:34.22

Congrats on your 100% run, and great job keeping this game alive! Smiley

You certainly have the skill to pull off a nice Max% RTA run (though I can imagine it being a tough task). Keep it up.

In case any of you are interested, I made a couple IL speedruns from the Caribbean episode:

It would be fun to further improve these times, and I'll probably speedrun some of the other expansion maps in the future. I finally got around to playing the Megaton version of Duke 3D. Tongue

pogokeen

Edit history:

pogokeen: 2015-01-29 03:28:55 pm

2015-01-28 10:16:11 pm

I've been working on tallying the monsters for Max%, and my work has brought up some interesting notes that might make the category a bit more difficult than first expected.

Originally when we were discussing Max%, it seemed like the most straight-forward definition would be to achieve the maximum number of kills in a level (not just getting an end level tally which had been filled). This version of the rules accommodated the fact that it was not possible to kill all of the enemies in all of the levels. E1L2 is noteworthy for this, as it contains a spawn trigger that causes a spawner to attempt to spawn a Flying Recon Patrol Vehicle Pig Cop (increasing the max kill tally), but fails to properly spawn one. With this version of the rules, all monsters (including those that could spawn from spawn triggers) would have to be killed, not just the ones that exist at the beginning of a level (should no spawn triggers be hit).

The original downside we could foresee to this rule set was that it required killing particular innocents, as killing certain women in the game triggers enemies to spawn.

Recently, while doing more extensive testing, I've noticed:
* Pig Cop Tanks and Flying Recon Patrol Vehicle Pig Cops count as a kill and can spawn an extra enemy when they are destroyed. This spawn increases the enemy counter by 1. Note that Pig Cop Tanks do not always spawn a Pig Cop when destroyed.
* Protozoid Slimer Eggs count as a kill, but they can spawn a Protozoid Slimer. When they spawn a Slimer, the enemy counter increases by 1. If they are destroyed prior to spawning a Slimer though, they will only count as a single kill, and the enemy counter will not increase for the Slimer that was not spawned.
* When a Protozoid Slimer eats an enemy, it doesn't count as a kill -- instead, the number of enemies in the level drops by 1.

I'm undecided as to whether this will make the current rules too difficult... Previously, I thought that we could simply target a certain end level tally, but now it looks like we could not just use the end level tally with this rule set. We would have to use the level stats throughout the run to verify that no enemy is missed.

I am currently still compiling the maximum enemy tallies for each level though. I've written an application to tally sprites in Duke3D maps to help with this -- after I've added my final improvements, I'm going to share it in this thread.

What does everybody think about the rules for Max%? Should we change them? Is there a better approach to this category?

One potential alternative I can think of would be to switch from max kills to filling the enemy kill tally (regardless of enemies that have not spawned)... in this case, levels where the kill tally couldn't be fulfilled would require exceptions for the count of enemies that cannot be killed. This could be an interesting run to route, as you would want to avoid spawn triggers while killing all currently spawned enemies in a level... Additionally, it doesn't run into the same "killing innocents" issue. It could potentially mean that you wouldn't have to visit as much of the levels as the current rule set, though.

P.S. Awesome runs, Andrew! Cheesy

Really dig that route through Wavemistress; the Caribbean expansion is looking sweet! I love the variety in the tricks!

I've been working on tallying the monsters for Max%, and my work has brought up some interesting notes that might make the category a bit more difficult than first expected.

Originally when we were discussing Max%, it seemed like the most straight-forward definition would be to achieve the maximum number of kills in a level (not just getting an end level tally which had been filled).  This version of the rules accommodated the fact that it was not possible to kill all of the enemies in all of the levels.  E1L2 is noteworthy for this, as it contains a spawn trigger that causes a spawner to attempt to spawn a Flying Recon Patrol Vehicle Pig Cop (increasing the max kill tally), but fails to properly spawn one.  With this version of the rules, all monsters (including those that could spawn from spawn triggers) would have to be killed, not just the ones that exist at the beginning of a level (should no spawn triggers be hit).

The original downside we could foresee to this rule set was that it required killing particular innocents, as killing certain women in the game triggers enemies to spawn.

Recently, while doing more extensive testing, I've noticed:
* Pig Cop Tanks and Flying Recon Patrol Vehicle Pig Cops count as a kill and can spawn an extra enemy when they are destroyed.  This spawn increases the enemy counter by 1.  Note that Pig Cop Tanks do not always spawn a Pig Cop when destroyed.
* Protozoid Slimer Eggs count as a kill, but they can spawn a Protozoid Slimer.  When they spawn a Slimer, the enemy counter increases by 1.  If they are destroyed prior to spawning a Slimer though, they will only count as a single kill, and the enemy counter will not increase for the Slimer that was not spawned.
* When a Protozoid Slimer eats an enemy, it doesn't count as a kill -- instead, the number of enemies in the level drops by 1.

I'm undecided as to whether this will make the current rules too difficult...  Previously, I thought that we could simply target a certain end level tally, but now it looks like we could not just use the end level tally with this rule set.  We would have to use the level stats throughout the run to verify that no enemy is missed.

I am currently still compiling the maximum enemy tallies for each level though.  I've written an application to tally sprites in Duke3D maps to help with this -- after I've added my final improvements, I'm going to share it in this thread.

What does everybody think about the rules for Max%?  Should we change them?  Is there a better approach to this category?

One potential alternative I can think of would be to switch from max kills to filling the enemy kill tally (regardless of enemies that have not spawned)...  in this case, levels where the kill tally couldn't be fulfilled would require exceptions for the count of enemies that cannot be killed.  This could be an interesting run to route, as you would want to avoid spawn triggers while killing all currently spawned enemies in a level...  Additionally, it doesn't run into the same "killing innocents" issue.  It could potentially mean that you wouldn't have to visit as much of the levels as the current rule set, though.

P.S. Awesome runs, Andrew! :D  Really dig that route through Wavemistress; the Caribbean expansion is looking sweet!  I love the variety in the tricks!

TheBlackParrot

2015-02-01 12:35:18 am

Quote from pogokeen:

One potential alternative I can think of would be to switch from max kills to filling the enemy kill tally (regardless of enemies that have not spawned)... in this case, levels where the kill tally couldn't be fulfilled would require exceptions for the count of enemies that cannot be killed. This could be an interesting run to route, as you would want to avoid spawn triggers while killing all currently spawned enemies in a level... Additionally, it doesn't run into the same "killing innocents" issue. It could potentially mean that you wouldn't have to visit as much of the levels as the current rule set, though.

I like that idea better, it would add more strategic movement to the route the way I'm picturing it.
If we really wanted to though, we could just take the lazy way out and split Max% into two, e.g. "Max% Fill Tally" and "Max% All Enemies". I feel like though we probably don't want to do that; it's always an option though.

I also feel like I might be able to get under 27 minutes comfortably now for 100%. I really really really need to start optimizing more, there's better (although minor) routes I've found that aren't in the current 27:28 run.
Like shoot, I'm skipping steroids (that would be beneficial) without knowing they're there. And not just once. embarassed

[quote="pogokeen"]
One potential alternative I can think of would be to switch from max kills to filling the enemy kill tally (regardless of enemies that have not spawned)...  in this case, levels where the kill tally couldn't be fulfilled would require exceptions for the count of enemies that cannot be killed.  This could be an interesting run to route, as you would want to avoid spawn triggers while killing all currently spawned enemies in a level...  Additionally, it doesn't run into the same "killing innocents" issue.  It could potentially mean that you wouldn't have to visit as much of the levels as the current rule set, though.
[/quote]
I like that idea better, it would add more strategic movement to the route the way I'm picturing it.
If we [i]really[/i] wanted to though, we could just take the lazy way out and split Max% into two, e.g. "Max% Fill Tally" and "Max% All Enemies". I feel like though we probably don't want to do that; it's always an option though.

I also feel like I might be able to get under 27 minutes comfortably now for 100%. I really really really need to start optimizing more, there's better (although minor) routes I've found that aren't in the current 27:28 run.
Like shoot, I'm skipping steroids (that would be beneficial) without knowing they're there. And not just once. :embarassed:

grzdeniek

2015-02-06 05:44:51 am

Got this last night on stream. beats pogokeen's time from Ferbuary 2014. Credits go to him for help with encoding.

pogokeen

2015-02-06 01:36:36 pm

TheBlackParrot and I have been discussing how to approach the new rules proposed, and we decided that it would make sense to make a new category! Smiley

The new category is named 100%:

In 100%, the goal is to complete the level (or game for RTA) in the fastest time, while having triggered all of the secrets and having scored all available kills.
The level statistics should show that all killable enemies that have spawned by the end of any level should have been killed.
In RTA, it is also required that all secret levels are visited and completed (as in 100S).
Note that this differs from Max% in that enemy spawn triggers can be avoided! Smiley

To accommodate the new category, we are renaming the existing 100S/100% category to just 100S.

Max% will still be around, but as noted earlier, some levels will be difficult to run in Max% until special tracking for Max% is added to pkDuke.

I've updated the wiki with the new categories -- let me know what you think! Smiley

There's still plenty of room for discussion about the new category! Smiley

Quote from TheBlackParrot:

I also feel like I might be able to get under 27 minutes comfortably now for 100%. I really really really need to start optimizing more, there's better (although minor) routes I've found that aren't in the current 27:28 run.
Like shoot, I'm skipping steroids (that would be beneficial) without knowing they're there. And not just once. embarassed

No worries, you're rocking these runs! Smiley

The category is still in its early, fertile discovery period; it's expected that optimization is going to take time. You're blazing through the category quickly despite this though! Smiley

Quote from grzdeniek:

Got this last night on stream. beats pogokeen's time from February 2014. Credits go to him for help with encoding.

Awesome run grzdeniek, really enjoyed watching you work on it (and completely rock it)! Smiley

TheBlackParrot and I have been discussing how to approach the new rules proposed, and we decided that it would make sense to make a new category! :)  The new category is named 100%:

In 100%, the goal is to complete the level (or game for RTA) in the fastest time, while having triggered all of the secrets and having scored all available kills.
The level statistics should show that all killable enemies that have spawned by the end of any level should have been killed.
In RTA, it is also required that all secret levels are visited and completed (as in 100S).
Note that this differs from Max% in that enemy spawn triggers can be avoided! :)

To accommodate the new category, we are renaming the existing 100S/100% category to just 100S.

Max% will still be around, but as noted earlier, some levels will be difficult to run in Max% until special tracking for Max% is added to pkDuke.

I've updated the wiki with the new categories -- let me know what you think! :)  There's still plenty of room for discussion about the new category! :)

[quote="TheBlackParrot"]
I also feel like I might be able to get under 27 minutes comfortably now for 100%. I really really really need to start optimizing more, there's better (although minor) routes I've found that aren't in the current 27:28 run.
Like shoot, I'm skipping steroids (that would be beneficial) without knowing they're there. And not just once. :embarassed:
[/quote]
No worries, you're rocking these runs! :)  The category is still in its early, fertile discovery period; it's expected that optimization is going to take time.  You're blazing through the category quickly despite this though! :)

[quote="grzdeniek"]
Got this last night on stream. beats pogokeen's time from February 2014. Credits go to him for help with encoding.[/quote]
Awesome run grzdeniek, really enjoyed watching you work on it (and completely rock it)! :)

grzdeniek

2015-02-06 05:46:40 pm

Today I improved my old max% time which was bad. this still contains some mistakes but is much better than the old run

Amart

2015-02-07 06:31:50 pm

I believe it's worth noting that additional protozoid slimers can be spawned by freezing hatched eggs with the freeze gun. Once the eggs unfreeze, the eggs are completely revitalized and are able to spawn new slimers. This seemingly can be done an infinite amount of times; thus, the max number of kills the player can get is infinite on maps with protozoid slimer eggs. Perhaps any slimers that spawn due to this bug should be excluded for Max% speedruns.

Quote from pogokeen:

TheBlackParrot and I have been discussing how to approach the new rules proposed, and we decided that it would make sense to make a new category! Smiley

The new category is named 100%:

In 100%, the goal is to complete the level (or game for RTA) in the fastest time, while having triggered all of the secrets and having scored all available kills.
The level statistics should show that all killable enemies that have spawned by the end of any level should have been killed.
In RTA, it is also required that all secret levels are visited and completed (as in 100S).
Note that this differs from Max% in that enemy spawn triggers can be avoided! Smiley

I really dig the 100% category! Smiley

Allowing additional enemies to spawn in the map will only hurt the player's time. I like it!

Quote:

Today I improved my old max% time which was bad. this still contains some mistakes but is much better than the old run

Great job on your speedruns! Your runs look very smooth. Keep up the good work.

I believe it's worth noting that additional protozoid slimers can be spawned by freezing hatched eggs with the freeze gun.  Once the eggs unfreeze, the eggs are completely revitalized and are able to spawn new slimers.  This seemingly can be done an infinite amount of times; thus, the max number of kills the player can get is infinite on maps with protozoid slimer eggs.  Perhaps any slimers that spawn due to this bug should be excluded for Max% speedruns.

[quote="pogokeen"]TheBlackParrot and I have been discussing how to approach the new rules proposed, and we decided that it would make sense to make a new category! :)  The new category is named 100%:

In 100%, the goal is to complete the level (or game for RTA) in the fastest time, while having triggered all of the secrets and having scored all available kills.
The level statistics should show that all killable enemies that have spawned by the end of any level should have been killed.
In RTA, it is also required that all secret levels are visited and completed (as in 100S).
Note that this differs from Max% in that enemy spawn triggers can be avoided! :)

[/quote]

I really dig the 100% category! :)  Allowing additional enemies to spawn in the map will only hurt the player's time.  I like it!

[quote]Today I improved my old max% time which was bad. this still contains some mistakes but is much better than the old run[/quote]

Great job on your speedruns!  Your runs look very smooth.  Keep up the good work.

Softman25

2015-02-15 06:01:19 am

As per a Youtube comment on my tutorial . . .

Quote:

Bad news. The infinite Jet Pack thing has been patched... I've been practicing and it no longer starts at 100% every level.

Not sure how much this impacts the run. Do we just have to be more frugal - or pick up a spare mid episode? I'm thinking the first one - we're not using THAT much. In E2 I think you grab a spare in Fusion Station (name incorrect?) anyway. Not sure about E3...E1 probably too short to matter.

Testing required probably.

LLCoolDave

2015-02-21 02:55:45 am

It shouldn't matter at all for any% I think, and the 100% variations should have enough pickups to cover you. Unless the bug has actually been around for ages and was in the old eduke engine as well I never had trouble with jetpack fuel before switiching to megaton.

Going to pick this game back up for ESA this year, is there much of anything important I missed in the meantime? Turning off vsync/framelimiter makes the intermission skips reliable and there's the e2l8 clip I'll have to learn, anything else new since my AGDQ run?

Silos911

Edit history:

Silos911: 2015-02-24 05:13:00 pm

2015-02-24 05:11:54 pm

Quote from LLCoolDave:

It shouldn't matter at all for any% I think, and the 100% variations should have enough pickups to cover you. Unless the bug has actually been around for ages and was in the old eduke engine as well I never had trouble with jetpack fuel before switiching to megaton.

Going to pick this game back up for ESA this year, is there much of anything important I missed in the meantime? Turning off vsync/framelimiter makes the intermission skips reliable and there's the e2l8 clip I'll have to learn, anything else new since my AGDQ run?

You know about the E1L5 portal right? That's the only other thing I can think of in regards to any%.

I also found a weird glitch in the Vita version of Megaton Edition the other day. It doesn't seem to work in any other version though. I'm trying to find a way to record it, but to try and describe it you do a jump-duck-jump next to the wall on Raw Meat (E3L1) that we used to go through to access a portal, and if you do it at a proper angle the level ends and you're moved on to Bank Roll. The level can be completed in under ten seconds very easily with this method, but I can't seem to make it work on the PC version, and I have no idea what is going on to cause it so I can't think of any other way to replicate it.

[quote="LLCoolDave"]It shouldn't matter at all for any% I think, and the 100% variations should have enough pickups to cover you. Unless the bug has actually been around for ages and was in the old eduke engine as well I never had trouble with jetpack fuel before switiching to megaton.

Going to pick this game back up for ESA this year, is there much of anything important I missed in the meantime? Turning off vsync/framelimiter makes the intermission skips reliable and there's the e2l8 clip I'll have to learn, anything else new since my AGDQ run?[/quote]
You know about the E1L5 portal right? That's the only other thing I can think of in regards to any%.

I also found a weird glitch in the Vita version of Megaton Edition the other day. It doesn't seem to work in any other version though. I'm trying to find a way to record it, but to try and describe it you do a jump-duck-jump next to the wall on Raw Meat (E3L1) that we used to go through to access a portal, and if you do it at a proper angle the level ends and you're moved on to Bank Roll. The level can be completed in under ten seconds very easily with this method, but I can't seem to make it work on the PC version, and I have no idea what is going on to cause it so I can't think of any other way to replicate it.

pogokeen

2015-03-01 03:20:46 am

Quote from Softman25:

As per a Youtube comment on my tutorial . . .

Quote:

Bad news. The infinite Jet Pack thing has been patched... I've been practicing and it no longer starts at 100% every level.

Whoa, that's too bad... I always forget about this glitch, so thankfully I doubt it'll cause issues. I wonder though if this was patched pre-1.3.2 or post? I'll have to check to see if this is still around in pkDuke.

Quote from LLCoolDave:

Going to pick this game back up for ESA this year, is there much of anything important I missed in the meantime? Turning off vsync/framelimiter makes the intermission skips reliable and there's the e2l8 clip I'll have to learn, anything else new since my AGDQ run?

Awesome!

Really happy to hear this! Smiley

E2L8 is the biggest change... There have been a bunch of improvements and variations of episode and IL routing, but off the top of my head, there isn't any other particular trick that jumps out at me as being new required knowledge... (except maybe some stuff in Episode 4: for instance, Megaton really improves Babeland with a fall damage clip through the vent grate). Turning off Duke Talk is another recent speed enhancement to start each episode slightly faster. The change in recent updates to SDL2 and the addition of joystick support has affected the entire input system, so the capslock/numlock/scrolllock automatic strafe-50 no longer works in standard Megaton Edition, so (outside of pkDuke) everyone is back to holding down alt while performing strafe-50 (thankfully though, it didn't re-introduce turning being locked while strafing).

For the most recent state-of-the-art in Any% RTA, I'd recommend watching this run by Cubeface ( http://www.twitch.tv/cubeface21/v/3614341 ) and also this E1 run by Silos911 ( youtube.com/watch?v=q6X-_tgxzrs ).

Additionally, I'd also recommend watching BlackParrot's 100S runs and Softman's Any% runs, if you're looking for more great RTA stuff! Smiley

Quote from Silos911:

I also found a weird glitch in the Vita version of Megaton Edition the other day. It doesn't seem to work in any other version though. I'm trying to find a way to record it, but to try and describe it you do a jump-duck-jump next to the wall on Raw Meat (E3L1) that we used to go through to access a portal, and if you do it at a proper angle the level ends and you're moved on to Bank Roll. The level can be completed in under ten seconds very easily with this method, but I can't seem to make it work on the PC version, and I have no idea what is going on to cause it so I can't think of any other way to replicate it.

Whoa! That's amazing... I wonder what could possibly be happening? Do you start the next level with replenished full health? That would be a good indicator if you were dying as the level transitioned... I wonder if it has something to do with how usable objects work, maybe there's some case where a "use" event can be transferred to a different object in the level than normal?

For some reason, I feel like there's a glitch I'm forgetting where you could buffer a level transition past a reset, if you were resetting an episode... I dunno if this is a completely false memory though, but now I really want to investigate that too...

[quote="Softman25"]As per a Youtube comment on my tutorial . . .

[quote]Bad news. The infinite Jet Pack thing has been patched... I've been practicing and it no longer starts at 100% every level.[/quote][/quote]
Whoa, that's too bad...  I always forget about this glitch, so thankfully I doubt it'll cause issues.  I wonder though if this was patched pre-1.3.2 or post?  I'll have to check to see if this is still around in pkDuke.

[quote="LLCoolDave"]Going to pick this game back up for ESA this year, is there much of anything important I missed in the meantime? Turning off vsync/framelimiter makes the intermission skips reliable and there's the e2l8 clip I'll have to learn, anything else new since my AGDQ run?[/quote]
Awesome! :)  Really happy to hear this! :)  E2L8 is the biggest change...  There have been a bunch of improvements and variations of episode and IL routing, but off the top of my head, there isn't any other particular trick that jumps out at me as being new required knowledge... (except maybe some stuff in Episode 4: for instance, Megaton really improves Babeland with a fall damage clip through the vent grate).  Turning off Duke Talk is another recent speed enhancement to start each episode slightly faster.  The change in recent updates to SDL2 and the addition of joystick support has affected the entire input system, so the capslock/numlock/scrolllock automatic strafe-50 no longer works in standard Megaton Edition, so (outside of pkDuke) everyone is back to holding down alt while performing strafe-50 (thankfully though, it didn't re-introduce turning being locked while strafing).

For the most recent state-of-the-art in Any% RTA, I'd recommend watching this run by Cubeface ( http://www.twitch.tv/cubeface21/v/3614341 ) and also this E1 run by Silos911 ( [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6X-_tgxzrs"]youtube.com/watch?v=q6X-_tgxzrs[/url] ).

Additionally, I'd also recommend watching BlackParrot's 100S runs and Softman's Any% runs, if you're looking for more great RTA stuff! :)

[quote="Silos911"]I also found a weird glitch in the Vita version of Megaton Edition the other day. It doesn't seem to work in any other version though. I'm trying to find a way to record it, but to try and describe it you do a jump-duck-jump next to the wall on Raw Meat (E3L1) that we used to go through to access a portal, and if you do it at a proper angle the level ends and you're moved on to Bank Roll. The level can be completed in under ten seconds very easily with this method, but I can't seem to make it work on the PC version, and I have no idea what is going on to cause it so I can't think of any other way to replicate it.[/quote]
Whoa!  That's amazing... I wonder what could possibly be happening?  Do you start the next level with replenished full health?  That would be a good indicator if you were dying as the level transitioned...  I wonder if it has something to do with how usable objects work, maybe there's some case where a "use" event can be transferred to a different object in the level than normal?

For some reason, I feel like there's a glitch I'm forgetting where you could buffer a level transition past a reset, if you were resetting an episode...  I dunno if this is a completely false memory though, but now I really want to investigate that too...

Silos911

2015-03-01 04:11:35 pm

Quote from pogokeen:

Quote from Silos911:

I also found a weird glitch in the Vita version of Megaton Edition the other day. It doesn't seem to work in any other version though. I'm trying to find a way to record it, but to try and describe it you do a jump-duck-jump next to the wall on Raw Meat (E3L1) that we used to go through to access a portal, and if you do it at a proper angle the level ends and you're moved on to Bank Roll. The level can be completed in under ten seconds very easily with this method, but I can't seem to make it work on the PC version, and I have no idea what is going on to cause it so I can't think of any other way to replicate it.

Whoa! That's amazing... I wonder what could possibly be happening? Do you start the next level with replenished full health? That would be a good indicator if you were dying as the level transitioned... I wonder if it has something to do with how usable objects work, maybe there's some case where a "use" event can be transferred to a different object in the level than normal?

For some reason, I feel like there's a glitch I'm forgetting where you could buffer a level transition past a reset, if you were resetting an episode... I dunno if this is a completely false memory though, but now I really want to investigate that too...

I looked a bit more into it, you don't die, your health carries over to the next level, the angle I'm at is roughly looking toward the end of level nuke (just a little to the left), but I don't hit the use button once during the level. Also, it doesn't work if you try doing it where the moveable wall is, like you have to clip completely out of bounds for the level to end. Finally, the vita version has a replay feature where you can watch your playthroughs on levels. If you do the glitch and try to watch the replay the game just crashes.

I'm not too sure about buffering a level transition, nothing's coming to mind but I may just be forgetful.

Still working on some way to record this, sadly it's probably just going to be a recording on my phone, but I can't think of anything else to do.

[quote="pogokeen"]
[quote="Silos911"]I also found a weird glitch in the Vita version of Megaton Edition the other day. It doesn't seem to work in any other version though. I'm trying to find a way to record it, but to try and describe it you do a jump-duck-jump next to the wall on Raw Meat (E3L1) that we used to go through to access a portal, and if you do it at a proper angle the level ends and you're moved on to Bank Roll. The level can be completed in under ten seconds very easily with this method, but I can't seem to make it work on the PC version, and I have no idea what is going on to cause it so I can't think of any other way to replicate it.[/quote]
Whoa!  That's amazing... I wonder what could possibly be happening?  Do you start the next level with replenished full health?  That would be a good indicator if you were dying as the level transitioned...  I wonder if it has something to do with how usable objects work, maybe there's some case where a "use" event can be transferred to a different object in the level than normal?

For some reason, I feel like there's a glitch I'm forgetting where you could buffer a level transition past a reset, if you were resetting an episode...  I dunno if this is a completely false memory though, but now I really want to investigate that too...[/quote]I looked a bit more into it, you don't die, your health carries over to the next level, the angle I'm at is roughly looking toward the end of level nuke (just a little to the left), but I don't hit the use button once during the level.  Also, it doesn't work if you try doing it where the moveable wall is, like you have to clip completely out of bounds for the level to end. Finally, the vita version has a replay feature where you can watch your playthroughs on levels. If you do the glitch and try to watch the replay the game just crashes.

I'm not too sure about buffering a level transition, nothing's coming to mind but I may just be forgetful.

Still working on some way to record this, sadly it's probably just going to be a recording on my phone, but I can't think of anything else to do.

Amart

2015-03-09 03:25:45 pm

Quote from LLCoolDave:

It shouldn't matter at all for any% I think, and the 100% variations should have enough pickups to cover you. Unless the bug has actually been around for ages and was in the old eduke engine as well I never had trouble with jetpack fuel before switiching to megaton.

Going to pick this game back up for ESA this year, is there much of anything important I missed in the meantime? Turning off vsync/framelimiter makes the intermission skips reliable and there's the e2l8 clip I'll have to learn, anything else new since my AGDQ run?

After looking at Cubeface's WR run again, the only other glitch I can think of ATM that can feasibly be incorporated into a RTA run is the old underwater ledge push glitch at the very beginning of E1M4. It is not very hard to pull off, but it will require the player to take explosive damage. If health is really a concern, then I understand why nobody would use it (I'm not sure as I have not practiced doing a RTA run for this game yet). I also noticed that Cubeface skipped the steroids in E3M3, and those steroids can be picked up without losing any time. Other than that, I think the RTA runs look very smooth.

There is one other neat ledge push glitch in E3M7 that can save a decent amount of time, but it seems that it would be damn near impossible to pull off in a RTA run. It allows the player to exit out of the yellow key card room; therefore, the player wouldn't need to pick up the yellow key card.

[quote="LLCoolDave"]It shouldn't matter at all for any% I think, and the 100% variations should have enough pickups to cover you. Unless the bug has actually been around for ages and was in the old eduke engine as well I never had trouble with jetpack fuel before switiching to megaton.

Going to pick this game back up for ESA this year, is there much of anything important I missed in the meantime? Turning off vsync/framelimiter makes the intermission skips reliable and there's the e2l8 clip I'll have to learn, anything else new since my AGDQ run?[/quote]

After looking at Cubeface's WR run again, the only other glitch I can think of ATM that can feasibly be incorporated into a RTA run is the old underwater ledge push glitch at the very beginning of E1M4.  It is not very hard to pull off, but it will require the player to take explosive damage.  If health is really a concern, then I understand why nobody would use it (I'm not sure as I have not practiced doing a RTA run for this game yet).  I also noticed that Cubeface skipped the steroids in E3M3, and those steroids can be picked up without losing any time.  Other than that, I think the RTA runs look very smooth.

There is one other neat ledge push glitch in E3M7 that can save a decent amount of time, but it seems that it would be damn near impossible to pull off in a RTA run.   It allows the player to exit out of the yellow key card room; therefore, the player wouldn't need to pick up the yellow key card.

pogokeen

Edit history:

pogokeen: 2015-03-13 01:40:01 pm

pogokeen: 2015-03-11 12:08:14 pm

pogokeen: 2015-03-09 05:05:02 pm

2015-03-09 04:59:29 pm

Quote from Andrew_Martinez:

There is one other neat ledge push glitch in E3M7 that can save a decent amount of time, but it seems that it would be damn near impossible to pull off in a RTA run. It allows the player to exit out of the yellow key card room; therefore, the player wouldn't need to pick up the yellow key card.

I would love to see this trick in RTA -- it's super risky though... I'm certain it will become almost mandatory in RTA eventually, but I think it'll probably still be a while before we get there! Still, super fun trick, especially in IL! Smiley

Quote from Andrew_Martinez:

After looking at Cubeface's WR run again, the only other glitch I can think of ATM that can feasibly be incorporated into a RTA run is the old underwater ledge push glitch at the very beginning of E1M4.

Ah! That makes sense now!
I didn't know about this trick, I had seen it done in the XBOX runs, but it never properly registered with me... That's really awesome! I'm super excited to work on E1L4 again with this! Smiley

Thanks for sharing this, I would've totally missed it!

Edit: Haha for some reason I thought I could do this in IL at the time I wrote this -- I just realized I wouldn't have explosives! Tongue

For RTA though, this will be fun to use! Cheesy

Edit:

Quote from Silos911:

Still working on some way to record this, sadly it's probably just going to be a recording on my phone, but I can't think of anything else to do.

No worries -- that would be so awesome to see, even with just a camera pointed at the screen! Smiley

[quote="Andrew_Martinez"]There is one other neat ledge push glitch in E3M7 that can save a decent amount of time, but it seems that it would be damn near impossible to pull off in a RTA run.   It allows the player to exit out of the yellow key card room; therefore, the player wouldn't need to pick up the yellow key card.[/quote]
I would love to see this trick in RTA -- it's super risky though...  I'm certain it will become almost mandatory in RTA eventually, but I think it'll probably still be a while before we get there!  Still, super fun trick, especially in IL! :)

[quote="Andrew_Martinez"]After looking at Cubeface's WR run again, the only other glitch I can think of ATM that can feasibly be incorporated into a RTA run is the old underwater ledge push glitch at the very beginning of E1M4.[/quote]
Ah!  That makes sense now!
I didn't know about this trick, I had seen it done in the XBOX runs, but it never properly registered with me...  That's really awesome!  I'm super excited to work on E1L4 again with this! :)
Thanks for sharing this, I would've totally missed it!

Edit: Haha for some reason I thought I could do this in IL at the time I wrote this -- I just realized I wouldn't have explosives! :P  For RTA though, this will be fun to use! :D

Edit:
[quote="Silos911"]Still working on some way to record this, sadly it's probably just going to be a recording on my phone, but I can't think of anything else to do.[/quote]
No worries -- that would be so awesome to see, even with just a camera pointed at the screen! :)

Silos911

Edit history:

Silos911: 2015-03-24 06:49:02 pm

2015-03-24 06:48:51 pm

I've also been working on Duke it out in DC, here's a run of Nuked Files. I have a new route for The Smithsonian as well but I haven't recorded a video yet.

Amart

2015-03-26 01:45:10 pm

Quote from Silos911:

I've also been working on Duke it out in DC, here's a run of Nuked Files. I have a new route for The Smithsonian as well but I haven't recorded a video yet.

Epic run, Silos911! That trick at the end was clever. Glad to see someone working on the DC episode. Keep up the good work. Smiley

Quote from pogokeen:

I would love to see this trick in RTA -- it's super risky though... I'm certain it will become almost mandatory in RTA eventually, but I think it'll probably still be a while before we get there! Still, super fun trick, especially in IL! Smiley

That would be awesome to see someone pull off that clip in a RTA run. Heck, I think it would be very impressive just to see it in a single segment IL run. Smiley

I remember having a lot of trouble pulling off that trick the last time I tried it.

Quote from pogokeen:

Ah! That makes sense now!
I didn't know about this trick, I had seen it done in the XBOX runs, but it never properly registered with me... That's really awesome! I'm super excited to work on E1L4 again with this! Smiley

Thanks for sharing this, I would've totally missed it!

Edit: Haha for some reason I thought I could do this in IL at the time I wrote this -- I just realized I wouldn't have explosives! Tongue

For RTA though, this will be fun to use! Cheesy

No problem! That trick can save about 6-7 in-game seconds, so it definitely shouldn't be ignored in WR RTA attempts. That glitch is pretty old too (it was found by Xbox player xBloodyWolF in 2008 or 2009 when he was actively speedrunning this game on the Xbox). I agree, it's too bad that it can't be incorporated into a pistol start IL speedrun.

Nonetheless, your E1M4 is still extremely entertaining to watch. Tongue

I found your Jump From Water tutorial video to be really helpful. I found that glitch to be somewhat useful at the start of Lost Lagoon (map 5 of the Caribbean episode). I might do more Caribbean IL speedruns when I get back to playing this game.

[quote="Silos911"]I've also been working on Duke it out in DC, here's a run of Nuked Files. I have a new route for The Smithsonian as well but I haven't recorded a video yet.
[/quote]

Epic run, Silos911!  That trick at the end was clever.  Glad to see someone working on the DC episode.  Keep up the good work. :)

[quote="pogokeen"]
I would love to see this trick in RTA -- it's super risky though...  I'm certain it will become almost mandatory in RTA eventually, but I think it'll probably still be a while before we get there!  Still, super fun trick, especially in IL! :) [/quote]

That would be awesome to see someone pull off that clip in a RTA run.  Heck, I think it would be very impressive just to see it in a single segment IL run. :)  I remember having a lot of trouble pulling off that trick the last time I tried it.

[quote="pogokeen"]
Ah!  That makes sense now!
I didn't know about this trick, I had seen it done in the XBOX runs, but it never properly registered with me...  That's really awesome!  I'm super excited to work on E1L4 again with this! :)
Thanks for sharing this, I would've totally missed it!

Edit: Haha for some reason I thought I could do this in IL at the time I wrote this -- I just realized I wouldn't have explosives! :P  For RTA though, this will be fun to use! :D [/quote]

No problem!  That trick can save about 6-7 in-game seconds, so it definitely shouldn't be ignored in WR RTA attempts.  That glitch is pretty old too (it was found by Xbox player xBloodyWolF in 2008 or 2009 when he was actively speedrunning this game on the Xbox).  I agree, it's too bad that it can't be incorporated into a pistol start IL speedrun.

Nonetheless, your E1M4 is still extremely entertaining to watch. :P  I found your Jump From Water tutorial video to be really helpful.  I found that glitch to be somewhat useful at the start of Lost Lagoon (map 5 of the Caribbean episode).  I might do more Caribbean IL speedruns when I get back to playing this game.

Silos911

Edit history:

Silos911: 2015-04-01 05:47:52 pm

2015-04-01 05:47:25 pm

Excuse the terrible quality, but here's the Vita glitch I was attempting to describe, with a bit of explaining various variables I've tested.

Silos911

2015-04-01 08:26:17 pm

So i just experimented with it a bit more, trying to apply it in other levels, turns out you can do this glitch in any level where you can clip out of bounds, so far I've successfully done it on Hollywood Holocaust (Beside the end of level nuke) and in Red Light District (in the private rooms in the adult store, you can clip out of bounds using the screens and steroids).

As with Raw Meat, none of these work with the PC version.

Softman25

2015-04-01 09:06:32 pm

Time for runs on iQue...I mean Vita. Wink

Silos911

Edit history:

Silos911: 2015-04-01 09:09:41 pm

2015-04-01 09:09:18 pm

Quote from Softman25:

Time for runs on iQue...I mean Vita. Wink

Seriously, it might be the fastest version now, I'll try to record a playthrough of some of these levels. I just did The Abyss in 13 seconds, I didn't beat the boss, but the completion time is stupidly fast. Red Light District, Death Row (which we skip now, but whatever), Toxic Dump, E2L1, they're all faster on the Vita version.

pogokeen

2015-04-01 09:23:34 pm

Awesome! That's really cool -- you can clip out of bounds really easily in basically every level... now I really wanna check this out on the Vita, I might just pick up that version after all... Thanks for sharing this and making a video! Smiley

I'm especially interested in the clip in Hollywood Holocaust outside of the starting area through the fence -- if you go far out there, does that squish also cause the glitch? I guess it may not, because it may be that you are still in a valid sector.

You can clip instantly at the very beginning of Raw Meat, there's a little ledge next to the spawn, so you shouldn't have to run to that door anymore, I would guess?

Now rotating sectors backwards has a huge benefit, you can easily escape sectors using that, or crush your current sector and escape to the next level!

Amazing work with Nuked Files, by the way! I love that route; combined with such smooth, spot on play, the run turned out super slick! Smiley

These are the kinds of runs I really want to set as a screensaver.

Also lol at iQue Tongue

Quote from Andrew_Martinez:

Nonetheless, your E1M4 is still extremely entertaining to watch. Tongue

I found your Jump From Water tutorial video to be really helpful. I found that glitch to be somewhat useful at the start of Lost Lagoon (map 5 of the Caribbean episode). I might do more Caribbean IL speedruns when I get back to playing this game.

Awesome, I'm glad it was helpful! (and thanks! Smiley

) I look forward to it, I'm really digging your Caribbean runs! Smiley

Awesome!  That's really cool -- you can clip out of bounds really easily in basically every level...  now I really wanna check this out on the Vita, I might just pick up that version after all...  Thanks for sharing this and making a video! :)  I'm especially interested in the clip in Hollywood Holocaust outside of the starting area through the fence -- if you go far out there, does that squish also cause the glitch?  I guess it may not, because it may be that you are still in a valid sector.

You can clip instantly at the very beginning of Raw Meat, there's a little ledge next to the spawn, so you shouldn't have to run to that door anymore, I would guess?

Now rotating sectors backwards has a huge benefit, you can easily escape sectors using that, or crush your current sector and escape to the next level!

Amazing work with Nuked Files, by the way!  I love that route;  combined with such smooth, spot on play, the run turned out super slick! :)  These are the kinds of runs I really want to set as a screensaver.

Also lol at iQue :P

[quote="Andrew_Martinez"]Nonetheless, your E1M4 is still extremely entertaining to watch. :P  I found your Jump From Water tutorial video to be really helpful.  I found that glitch to be somewhat useful at the start of Lost Lagoon (map 5 of the Caribbean episode).  I might do more Caribbean IL speedruns when I get back to playing this game.
[/quote]

Awesome, I'm glad it was helpful! (and thanks! :) )  I look forward to it, I'm really digging your Caribbean runs! :)

Silos911

2015-04-01 09:44:43 pm

Quote from pogokeen:

Awesome! That's really cool -- you can clip out of bounds really easily in basically every level... now I really wanna check this out on the Vita, I might just pick up that version after all... Thanks for sharing this and making a video! Smiley

I'm especially interested in the clip in Hollywood Holocaust outside of the starting area through the fence -- if you go far out there, does that squish also cause the glitch? I guess it may not, because it may be that you are still in a valid sector.

You can clip instantly at the very beginning of Raw Meat, there's a little ledge next to the spawn, so you shouldn't have to run to that door anymore, I would guess?

Now rotating sectors backwards has a huge benefit, you can easily escape sectors using that, or crush your current sector and escape to the next level!

Amazing work with Nuked Files, by the way! I love that route; combined with such smooth, spot on play, the run turned out super slick! Smiley

These are the kinds of runs I really want to set as a screensaver.

Also lol at iQue Tongue

Quote from Andrew_Martinez:

Nonetheless, your E1M4 is still extremely entertaining to watch. Tongue

I found your Jump From Water tutorial video to be really helpful. I found that glitch to be somewhat useful at the start of Lost Lagoon (map 5 of the Caribbean episode). I might do more Caribbean IL speedruns when I get back to playing this game.

Awesome, I'm glad it was helpful! (and thanks! Smiley

) I look forward to it, I'm really digging your Caribbean runs! Smiley

I'm currently doing a terribly edited compilation of a few levels. I tried clipping out of the beginning area of Hollywood Holocaust and it seems it doesn't work, the game actually pushes you back into the sector then kills you. Unless I'm just doing a wrong angle, but it feels right. I don't know.

I didn't know about clipping at the beginning of Raw Meat, and you're right it does work. I just got two seconds on it.

I'm not too sure what you mean about rotating sectors backwards, but I'm sure you're right? Wink

Finally, thanks for the kind words about Nuked Files! I was pretty happy with it, now I just need to finish doing Smithsonian Terror.

Quote from Andrew_Martinez:

Quote from Silos911:

I've also been working on Duke it out in DC, here's a run of Nuked Files. I have a new route for The Smithsonian as well but I haven't recorded a video yet.

Epic run, Silos911! That trick at the end was clever. Glad to see someone working on the DC episode. Keep up the good work. Smiley

Thanks Andrew, I appreciate it!

[quote="pogokeen"]Awesome!  That's really cool -- you can clip out of bounds really easily in basically every level...  now I really wanna check this out on the Vita, I might just pick up that version after all...  Thanks for sharing this and making a video! :)  I'm especially interested in the clip in Hollywood Holocaust outside of the starting area through the fence -- if you go far out there, does that squish also cause the glitch?  I guess it may not, because it may be that you are still in a valid sector.

You can clip instantly at the very beginning of Raw Meat, there's a little ledge next to the spawn, so you shouldn't have to run to that door anymore, I would guess?

Now rotating sectors backwards has a huge benefit, you can easily escape sectors using that, or crush your current sector and escape to the next level!

Amazing work with Nuked Files, by the way!  I love that route;  combined with such smooth, spot on play, the run turned out super slick! :)  These are the kinds of runs I really want to set as a screensaver.

Also lol at iQue :P

[quote="Andrew_Martinez"]Nonetheless, your E1M4 is still extremely entertaining to watch. :P  I found your Jump From Water tutorial video to be really helpful.  I found that glitch to be somewhat useful at the start of Lost Lagoon (map 5 of the Caribbean episode).  I might do more Caribbean IL speedruns when I get back to playing this game.
[/quote]

Awesome, I'm glad it was helpful! (and thanks! :) )  I look forward to it, I'm really digging your Caribbean runs! :)[/quote]
I'm currently doing a terribly edited compilation of a few levels. I tried clipping out of the beginning area of Hollywood Holocaust and it seems it doesn't work, the game actually pushes you back into the sector then kills you. Unless I'm just doing a wrong angle, but it feels right. I don't know.

I didn't know about clipping at the beginning of Raw Meat, and you're right it does work. I just got two seconds on it.

I'm not too sure what you mean about rotating sectors backwards, but I'm sure you're right? ;)

Finally, thanks for the kind words about Nuked Files! I was pretty happy with it, now I just need to finish doing Smithsonian Terror.

[quote="Andrew_Martinez"][quote="Silos911"]I've also been working on Duke it out in DC, here's a run of Nuked Files. I have a new route for The Smithsonian as well but I haven't recorded a video yet.
[/quote]

Epic run, Silos911!  That trick at the end was clever.  Glad to see someone working on the DC episode.  Keep up the good work. :)

[/quote]
Thanks Andrew, I appreciate it!

bucketfan4life

Edit history:

bucketfan4life: 2015-08-05 03:55:45 pm

2015-08-05 03:55:22 pm

Thought I would contribute something to this awesome speed running community. I actually routed out Episode 4 of this game and after letting Cubeface watch the route he encouraged me to make an account so I could post it here. Hope it helps! I worked long and hard on it.

pogokeen

2015-08-05 07:14:21 pm

Awesome, thanks so much! Smiley

This is really nice! There's a lot of good stuff in here, especially looking at which items you take (it's evident you put in a lot of good work ensuring that the route is consistent! Smiley

) Definitely going to be studying this in-depth, there's a lot of nice stuff to integrate from here! Smiley

bucketfan4life

2015-08-05 09:05:33 pm

Thanks a lot! I really did put a lot of work into it and after the tricks you've shown me this route's already obsolete... lol. But I'm excited! The route is so good already!