Demonstrate's Portal Done Pro [locked]

2011-04-24 07:06:12 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

As some of you might know, Demonstrate's run was unceremoniously given the axe because by the time he gave me comments, we already axed scripts. I've heard some complaints about his run being rejected before it was given a chance, so I'm considering giving it a second chance. Feel free to post your thoughts here.

Reasons we should reconsider:

-It's a really good run
-He did complete the run before the no scripts rule.

Reasons we shouldn't consider the run:

-I didn't get any submission info until April, long after the no scripts rule was stated on our front page.
-Accepting this run does cheapen our no scripts ruling, even though this would be the final scripts run posted on the site.

Note that whether this run is accepted or not does not change our no scripts ruling, it merely lets one last run be posted and that's it.

P.S. Yes, I know this thread has the potential to go awry/stupid very fast. Tongue

Thread title:

mike89

2011-04-24 07:55:40 am

SEGA Junkie

This seems like a no-brainer to me.

If this run is reconsidered then it opens up the case for the rule to come under consideration every time someone submits a new run. The "It's a really good run" doesn't really apply because any run that gets onto SDA these days has to be a really good run!

And since HL2:ep1 has already been posted and stated to be the last scripted run allowed on SDA, I think it would be rather hypocritical, especially considering it wouldn't see the light of day on SDA for a good few months.

ExplodingCabbage

2011-04-24 08:07:07 am

My 2 cents: if we ARE going to accept the run, insist on getting rid of the custom ending song, even if it means DemonStrate has to re-record the final segment or edit the audio.

Other than that it really depends on what we think the future of the scripted runs on the site is. If they're going to get removed at some point anyway then there's not much point accepting another one. If they're going to stay forever and be an accepted albeit slightly uncomfortable part of our collection, then I say allow this to be reconsidered since it was finished before the rule came into existence, and I just don't see the point in leaving an inferior run up when this run is so damn good (and popular).

ridd3r.

2011-04-24 08:20:19 am

we have lift off

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

I just don't see the point in leaving an inferior run up when this run is so damn good (and popular).

This wouldn't obsolete any of the current runs as this is segmented and with large skip gliches, so it's a new category.

I'm not particularly clear on what's happening with the existing scripted runs. As I understand it they will remain forever, but it's not clear how they can be obsoleted (as some are practically unbeatable).

As for this run, it's got loads of exposure without SDAs help, but I suppose that's not particularly relevant. Technically it should be accepted since it was completed before the new rules came in, it's basically the same as episode 1 except this was submitted later. However, I think to best serve SDAs interests it shouldn't be accepted. It will have been close to a year since the no scripts rule has been published by the time this would hit the front page. I think it would cause more confusion and problems than the fact it's a good run.

Since scripted runs have been shunned the focus should be on encouring people to obsolete the exisiting scripted runs, not putting up even more unbeatable ones...

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]I just don't see the point in leaving an inferior run up when this run is so damn good (and popular).[/quote]

This wouldn't obsolete any of the current runs as this is segmented and with large skip gliches, so it's a new category.

I'm not particularly clear on what's happening with the existing scripted runs. As I understand it they will remain forever, but it's not clear how they can be obsoleted (as some are practically unbeatable).

As for this run, it's got loads of exposure without SDAs help, but I suppose that's not particularly relevant. Technically it should be accepted since it was completed before the new rules came in, it's basically the same as episode 1 except this was submitted later. However, I think to best serve SDAs interests it shouldn't be accepted. It will have been close to a year since the no scripts rule has been published by the time this would hit the front page. I think it would cause more confusion and problems than the fact it's a good run.

Since scripted runs have been shunned the focus should be on encouring people to obsolete the exisiting scripted runs, not putting up even more unbeatable ones...

Manocheese

2011-04-24 08:20:55 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

It's way too late to accept this run. Scripts will have been banned for over a year by the time this could make it onto the site. Demonstrate should have submitted it when he finished it.

ExplodingCabbage

2011-04-24 08:25:44 am

Quote from ridd3r.:

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

I just don't see the point in leaving an inferior run up when this run is so damn good (and popular).

This wouldn't obsolete any of the current runs as this is segmented and with large skip gliches, so it's a new category.

Oh right. I'd forgotten Portal had a major skips category. In that case, I guess I agree with you.

Nihilus

2011-04-24 08:30:15 am

A tough call indeed. I would say let it slide, no harm done. In the grander scheme, it feels like a good argument for a 'less than official' category/section of the site where stuff with scripts can go (and be improved), DOSBox, etc.

arkarian

2011-04-24 08:55:10 am

gamelogs.org

still don't get why it matters that he finished it before scripts were banned. he submitted it after scripts were banned. if sda accepts this run they're even more retarded than i thought.

DJS

2011-04-24 08:57:10 am

torch slug since 2006

If this was TASVideos, I would vote Yes on accepting it.

FlamingMage

2011-04-24 09:12:29 am

I'm very glad that no one has tried to bring up the specifics of the scripts used, because that sort of thing shouldn't matter at all.

Don't accept it, it violates a SDA rule.

z1mb0bw4y

2011-04-24 10:01:40 am

Gets the cake.

I, personally, would say accept. I followed Demonstrate's portal run since the very beginning, and I think it would be a huge loss to SDA to NOT accept this run. The half-life and other source based games seem to be very popular on this website, for a run like this to be declined would be idiotic in my honest opinion.

I will say that everything that he does with scripts in this video can be done by binding jump to a mousewheel and using that in place of AHK. The only reason AHK is used to to place more concentration on the tricks themselves, and to save the runner significant effort. I don't see why this is a negative. The place where I don't think scripts should be involved are places like in half-life 1, where you do the 180 degree spin and shoot to boost yourself with the tau cannon.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-04-24 10:08:05 am

Exo: 2011-04-24 10:06:58 am

2011-04-24 10:05:52 am

Sandbagging

Bunnyhopping with a script does still count as using a script. There shouldn't even be a debate about this.
As much as I love demonstrate's run allowing it to get submitted now would simply be against the rules.
If somebody goes through the trouble of doing demonstrate's run without using scripts I'm sure the person wouldn't be happy about the fact that demonstrate's run got posted on here after scripts were banned.

akkord

2011-04-24 10:07:01 am

I think SDA should make a last exception cause the run obviously was made before the rule existed, sure DemonStrate should have submitted it at the point where he made it, but don't we all make mistakes? Its clearly the better run and if we consider looking at the date, then the rules shouldn't be so sharp on this one, and I would love to see it accepted as the last scripted run.

ZenicReverie

2011-04-24 10:09:15 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

What took him so long to contact you about submitting Mike? Did he not send a message at all until just recently?

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

My 2 cents: if we ARE going to accept the run, insist on getting rid of the custom ending song, even if it means DemonStrate has to re-record the final segment or edit the audio.

I agree with this. It's also a little odd to see that he changed the skin on the portal gun. I don't know if these modifications would be enough to reject it by themselves though.

Quote from z1mb0bw4y:

The only reason AHK is used to to place more concentration on the tricks themselves, and to save the runner significant effort.

Couldn't that be said about TASing as well?

Quote from akkord:

I think SDA should make a last exception cause the run obviously was made before the rule existed, sure DemonStrate should have submitted it at the point where he made it, but don't we all make mistakes? Its clearly the better run and if we consider looking at the date, then the rules shouldn't be so sharp on this one, and I would love to see it accepted as the last scripted run.

It's opening things up again; all you have to do is claim you did the run before scripts were banned, and then you can skirt the rules. There has to be a cut-off some time, and I think Mike set that time to the end of last year, so ...

What took him so long to contact you about submitting Mike? Did he not send a message at all until just recently?

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]My 2 cents: if we ARE going to accept the run, insist on getting rid of the custom ending song, even if it means DemonStrate has to re-record the final segment or edit the audio.[/quote]
I agree with this. It's also a little odd to see that he changed the skin on the portal gun. I don't know if these modifications would be enough to reject it by themselves though.

[quote="z1mb0bw4y"]The only reason AHK is used to to place more concentration on the tricks themselves, and to save the runner significant effort.[/quote]
Couldn't that be said about TASing as well?

[quote="akkord"]I think SDA should make a last exception cause the run obviously was made before the rule existed, sure DemonStrate should have submitted it at the point where he made it, but don't we all make mistakes? Its clearly the better run and if we consider looking at the date, then the rules shouldn't be so sharp on this one, and I would love to see it accepted as the last scripted run.[/quote]
It's opening things up again; all you have to do is claim you did the run before scripts were banned, and then you can skirt the rules. There has to be a cut-off some time, and I think Mike set that time to the end of last year, so ...

NabsterHax

2011-04-24 10:10:46 am

-The run was completed before the scripts rule came in. It's a special case; if this was considered at the time of submission, i think a lot more people would give it a chance.
-The script DemonStrate used was a simple jump script that could easily be repeated with a free scroll mouse wheel which, afaik, is perfectly acceptable.
-It's an awesome run, and it doesn't mean anyone's run is removed, so it won't harm anyone.

It's a special case. Alot of people are saying: "well, not now", but this is the whole point of the thread. If this was considered at the time of submission, instead of immediately dismissed, i think a lot more people would give it a chance.

z1mb0bw4y

2011-04-24 10:11:17 am

Gets the cake.

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Quote from z1mb0bw4y:

The only reason AHK is used to to place more concentration on the tricks themselves, and to save the runner significant effort.

Couldn't that be said about TASing as well?

You're right, because Demonstrate slowed down his run to a frame by frame motion to execute otherwise impossible tricks, I forgot. My mistake.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-04-24 10:14:04 am

Exo: 2011-04-24 10:13:37 am

Exo: 2011-04-24 10:13:32 am

2011-04-24 10:12:51 am

Sandbagging

Quote from NabsterHax:

-The script DemonStrate used was a simple jump script that could easily be repeated with a free scroll mouse wheel which, afaik, is perfectly acceptable.

Start up Portal , try to abh, come back.

P.S.: All that demonstrate would have to do is re-do the run without using scripts. Giving up on a newly formed rule or accepting "exceptions" isn't really what rules are about.

NabsterHax

2011-04-24 10:14:10 am

Quote from Exo:

Quote from NabsterHax:

-The script DemonStrate used was a simple jump script that could easily be repeated with a free scroll mouse wheel which, afaik, is perfectly acceptable.

Start up Portal , try to abh, come back.

I can abh easily with a normal "clickly" mouse wheel. And with a free scroll wheel that will continue scrolling for 30 seconds after you touched it, it gives exactly the same effect.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-04-24 10:17:45 am

Exo: 2011-04-24 10:16:34 am

Exo: 2011-04-24 10:15:46 am

2011-04-24 10:15:18 am

Sandbagging

Quote from NabsterHax:

Quote from Exo:

Quote from NabsterHax:

-The script DemonStrate used was a simple jump script that could easily be repeated with a free scroll mouse wheel which, afaik, is perfectly acceptable.

Start up Portal , try to abh, come back.

I can abh easily with a normal "clickly" mouse wheel. And with a free scroll wheel that will continue scrolling for 30 seconds after you touched it, it gives exactly the same effect.

A free-scroll wheel is not a normal pc mouse-wheel thus would fall under the category of rapid-fire-cheating.

P.S.: There's a difference between perfect abh'ing and just abh'ing.

P.P.S.: You sort of did prove my point that re-doing the run without scripts is possible. So why allow an exception.

P.P.P.S. : Seems like we're gonna need webcam verification for any new portal runs because of manual abh'ing :s

bandit5k

2011-04-24 10:19:26 am

HL2:DQ Runner

Start up Portal, enable turbo function on my joystick, bind button5 +jump, keep foot on button 5.

Turbo hardware is ALLOWED, yet performing the same function in script is DISALLOWED?
When I was running HL2, before the script was confirmed to be allowed, I had modified my mouse to have no "clicks" and weighted the wheel. It'd spin for 2 minutes spamming +jump. Then LightningX told me about turbo function hardware, man that helped a lot.

The point of it is to allow the runner to focus on running, rather than focusing on spinning his mouse wheel or holding his foot on a turbo button.

That being said, in HL2 there was a lot more insentive to have perfect BH because it was SUCH a speed boost compared to what you gain in Portal. Portal 2 is even worse for Bhopping, i haven't even bothered scripting it yet.

z1mb0bw4y

2011-04-24 10:19:28 am

Gets the cake.

Quote from Exo:

Quote from NabsterHax:

Quote from Exo:

Quote from NabsterHax:

-The script DemonStrate used was a simple jump script that could easily be repeated with a free scroll mouse wheel which, afaik, is perfectly acceptable.

Start up Portal , try to abh, come back.

I can abh easily with a normal "clickly" mouse wheel. And with a free scroll wheel that will continue scrolling for 30 seconds after you touched it, it gives exactly the same effect.

A free-scroll wheel is not a normal pc mouse-wheel thus would fall under the category of rapid-fire-cheating.

P.S.: There's a difference between perfect abh'ing and just abh'ing.

P.P.S.: You sort of did prove my point that re-doing the run without scripts is possible. So why allow an exception.

P.P.P.S. : Seems like we're gonna need webcam verification for any new portal runs because of manual abh'ing :s

Are you serious right now? So now we're going to dictate what standard PC gaming equipment is? Guys I play on a macbook, it's not standard PC gaming equipment, guess I can't submit any runs.

[quote="Exo"][quote="NabsterHax"][quote="Exo"][quote="NabsterHax"]
-The script DemonStrate used was a simple jump script that could easily be repeated with a free scroll mouse wheel which, afaik, is perfectly acceptable.
[/quote]

Start up Portal , try to abh, come back.[/quote]

I can abh easily with a normal "clickly" mouse wheel. And with a free scroll wheel that will continue scrolling for 30 seconds after you touched it, it gives exactly the same effect.[/quote]

A free-scroll wheel is not a normal pc mouse-wheel thus would fall under the category of rapid-fire-cheating.

P.S.: There's a difference between perfect abh'ing and just abh'ing.

P.P.S.: You sort of did prove my point that re-doing the run without scripts is possible. So why allow an exception.

P.P.P.S. : Seems like we're gonna need webcam verification for any new portal runs because of manual abh'ing :s[/quote]

Are you serious right now? So now we're going to dictate what standard PC gaming equipment is? Guys I play on a macbook, it's not standard PC gaming equipment, guess I can't submit any runs.

NabsterHax

Edit history:

NabsterHax: 2011-04-24 10:21:54 am

2011-04-24 10:19:31 am

Quote from Exo:

P.P.S.: You sort of did prove my point that re-doing the run without scripts is possible. So why allow an exception.

Re-doing the run is possible, but entirely unnecessary. If you can redo the run perfectly without the script, and remember this run was done before the rule came in, then why not let it go?

P.S. What is the point in having a speed running website, if you're not interested in the fastest runs out there.

Also, guess SDA are gonna have to start rolling out their own brand of standard hardware. T_T

Exo

2011-04-24 10:23:36 am

Sandbagging

Quote from bandit5k:

Start up Portal, enable turbo function on my joystick, bind button5 +jump, keep foot on button 5.

Turbo hardware is ALLOWED, yet performing the same function in script is DISALLOWED?
When I was running HL2, before the script was confirmed to be allowed, I had modified my mouse to have no "clicks" and weighted the wheel. It'd spin for 2 minutes spamming +jump. Then LightningX told me about turbo function hardware, man that helped a lot.

The point of it is to allow the runner to focus on running, rather than focusing on spinning his mouse wheel or holding his foot on a turbo button.

That being said, in HL2 there was a lot more insentive to have perfect BH because it was SUCH a speed boost compared to what you gain in Portal. Portal 2 is even worse for Bhopping, i haven't even bothered scripting it yet.

Since when is a turbo-function allowed if its not in the game ?

@z1mb0bw4y : If it allows someone an unfair disadvantage : Yes .

wolfhowlmedia

2011-04-24 10:24:15 am

Quote from Exo:

Quote from NabsterHax:

Quote from Exo:

Quote from NabsterHax:

-The script DemonStrate used was a simple jump script that could easily be repeated with a free scroll mouse wheel which, afaik, is perfectly acceptable.

Start up Portal , try to abh, come back.

I can abh easily with a normal "clickly" mouse wheel. And with a free scroll wheel that will continue scrolling for 30 seconds after you touched it, it gives exactly the same effect.

A free-scroll wheel is not a normal pc mouse-wheel thus would fall under the category of rapid-fire-cheating.

P.S.: There's a difference between perfect abh'ing and just abh'ing.

P.P.S.: You sort of did prove my point that re-doing the run without scripts is possible. So why allow an exception.

P.P.P.S. : Seems like we're gonna need webcam verification for any new portal runs because of manual abh'ing :s

Wait. Free-scroll mouse is not standard PC mouse? Did anyone told Logitech that? You can buy it in a store and plug it in a computer. What's non-standard in that?

[quote="Exo"][quote="NabsterHax"][quote="Exo"][quote="NabsterHax"]
-The script DemonStrate used was a simple jump script that could easily be repeated with a free scroll mouse wheel which, afaik, is perfectly acceptable.
[/quote]

Start up Portal , try to abh, come back.[/quote]

I can abh easily with a normal "clickly" mouse wheel. And with a free scroll wheel that will continue scrolling for 30 seconds after you touched it, it gives exactly the same effect.[/quote]

A free-scroll wheel is not a normal pc mouse-wheel thus would fall under the category of rapid-fire-cheating.

P.S.: There's a difference between perfect abh'ing and just abh'ing.

P.P.S.: You sort of did prove my point that re-doing the run without scripts is possible. So why allow an exception.

P.P.P.S. : Seems like we're gonna need webcam verification for any new portal runs because of manual abh'ing :s[/quote]

Wait. Free-scroll mouse is not standard PC mouse? Did anyone told Logitech that? You can buy it in a store and plug it in a computer. What's non-standard in that?

Kingpin

2011-04-24 10:24:44 am

Accept his run, don't accept mine...

Seems fair to me :/