Banjo-Kazooie - March 26th, 2011

2011-03-28 12:57:45 pm

Quote from Jumpman__:

It seems a little complicated but I'll do it if I have to. I know for a fact it's going to be the exact same quality as my previous run, so would it be acceptable to use that as a quality test?

You could, but I'd take a small snippet of the run and upload that so the people who'll be checking your video quality don't have to download and watch the entire run.

Quote from Jacky Durand:

This is exactly why I never got too deep into recording something for this game even though I did an any% run-attempt of 2:10 (with many mistakes). I suck at Mumbo's Mountain. Even with termite skip I'm slower than Jumpman, but I make up for it later. I think it's a problem if you have to be perfect in the earlier parts of the game to even be considered for an accept. In this game you don't get the best time by beating MM 7 seconds faster, but by finding the fastest route in the later levels. Jumpman clearly did that in most levels.

I agree with this. My perspective is generally a 3-second mistake is a 3-second mistake, no matter where in the run it is. A bad beginning does look sloppy, but you need to look at the entire run.

[quote="Jumpman__"]It seems a little complicated but I'll do it if I have to. I know for a fact it's going to be the exact same quality as my previous run, so would it be acceptable to use that as a quality test?[/quote]

You could, but I'd take a small snippet of the run and upload that so the people who'll be checking your video quality don't have to download and watch the entire run.

[quote="Jacky Durand"]This is exactly why I never got too deep into recording something for this game even though I did an any% run-attempt of 2:10 (with many mistakes). I suck at Mumbo's Mountain. Even with termite skip I'm slower than Jumpman, but I make up for it later. I think it's a problem if you have to be perfect in the earlier parts of the game to even be considered for an accept. In this game you don't get the best time by beating MM 7 seconds faster, but by finding the fastest route in the later levels. Jumpman clearly did that in most levels.[/quote]

I agree with this. My perspective is generally a 3-second mistake is a 3-second mistake, no matter where in the run it is. A bad beginning does look sloppy, but you need to look at the entire run.

Heidrage

2011-03-28 01:06:48 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

OK, here it goes. PM me your mailing address and I will send you my cart of BK. Like I said in the planning thread, Trek was able to do the tower skip. I will send you my cart for you to run the game on. And I will be honest right here and now... I do think you are being a bit of an ass Jumpman__. But that has no issue with me as long as a quality run comes out of this. I am sure I will be raged on for saying that though. But as I have said in the past, I want the best run that can be made for the games I care about to be on this site, I don't care who's name is attached to it. You are FAR better than me at this game. So I believe you should be the one to do it at this time rather than me. I want to see your full potential. If you accept my offer, I am sure I will get a PM from you.

VorpalEdge

2011-03-28 02:37:26 pm

welcome to the machine

I was going to offer to trade carts once I tested ticker's tower, but what can I say? Heidman is faster than me.

Flip

2011-03-28 02:38:22 pm

1-Up!

Quote from VorpalEdge:

Heidman is faster than me.

Think we can all pretty much say this Wink

Heidrage

2011-03-28 03:14:58 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

LOL, I love you guys <3

AniMeowzerz

2011-03-28 04:18:13 pm

Quote from Flip:

Quote from VorpalEdge:

Heidman is faster than me.

Think we can all pretty much say this Wink

NOT AT MASHING NYA NYA NYAAAAA

consistent mashing speed is another story though ;_;

PJ

2011-03-28 04:59:50 pm

Is PJ

Ani is the world champion for fastest recorded one-button-press.

Heidrage

2011-03-28 05:01:08 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Quote from PJ:

one-button-press.

Nice save from Flicky

Jumpman__

2011-03-30 05:38:49 pm

Banjo Kazooie

I was just wondering if this is going to get to be reverified, I'm still going to work on a run using death warps but I would like it if this would to get another chance due to the fact that it's impossible to do the ticker's tower trick on version 1.1. Thanx. Cheesy

Heidrage

2011-03-30 05:55:28 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

I doubt it, but I really don't get any say in it

Jumpman__

2011-03-30 06:15:01 pm

Banjo Kazooie

Quote from Flip:

Quote from Jumpman__:

I know I can do better on just about every other stage.

Just FYI, this is the basis for people calling your run sloppy. Having watched the run, I felt like too many levels could be improved by removing "simple" mistakes. At this point I agree that you at least deserve a reverification with the understanding that your version can't do tower skip, but remember that I said the SDA folk typically don't sympathize very much on version differences (outside of NTSC/PAL).

Kiyura posted while I was writing this. I just want to add on by saying that choosing to fly solo when you have a support team (us) ready can bite you in the ass. The same people who help you with your run are the people who will verify it, so you can gauge their attitude before submission. Anyhow, I think you deserve a reverification (we'll see what Mike thinks) but I hope you submit a better run regardless of the outcome.

Flip agrees that it deserves a revarification. Cheesy

Heidrage

2011-03-30 06:45:22 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

IMO, the same verdict will come out of it. Just because of your own quote you just posted. If you feel you can do better than you did, then do it. Ringrush's post sums up your run very well, and along with "I know I can do better on just about every other stage" will not change anything really.

Jumpman__

2011-03-30 06:55:20 pm

Banjo Kazooie

Quote from Heidrage:

IMO, the same verdict will come out of it. Just because of your own quote you just posted. If you feel you can do better than you did, then do it. Ringrush's post sums up your run very well, and along with "I know I can do better on just about every other stage" will not change anything really.

That's the thing with running Banjo Kazooie though, it's virtually impossible to do with no mistakes due to the two and a half long hours it takes to run the game. No matter what the full game time is, I will always know that I can do better on little parts in certain levels.

Heidrage

2011-03-30 07:00:33 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Dont get me wrong, small mistakes like missing a note and having to turn around a bit to grab it, is one thing. But the more costly mistakes are the real issues. Like in your TTC you missing the jiggy and had to fly around to get it again. Your run had some more too. Them larger mistakes should be a reset unless you finish the run for practice (I recommend this).

ridd3r.

2011-03-31 04:38:52 pm

we have lift off

What Ringrush said plus ignorance of SDA rules (not knowing you should use the fastest version) is not a valid reason for reverification.

Jumpman__

Edit history:

Jumpman__: 2011-03-31 07:32:49 pm

2011-03-31 07:31:19 pm

Banjo Kazooie

Quote from ridd3r.:

What Ringrush said plus ignorance of SDA rules (not knowing you should use the fastest version) is not a valid reason for reverification.

I'm not sure if you read the entire thread, I knew I was supposed to take the fastest route that's a no brainer. Every run before mine submitted to sda had never used death warping and none have even died by accident so I assumed that dieing was against the rules. My run should be reverified because I completed the run on version 1.1 of the game which, at that time, nobody knew that climbing ticker's tower was impossible to do and I don't think anyone even knew there was a version 1.1 of the game. I completed the run without the glitch because I knew it was impossible for me to do for some reason and three of the verifiers' primary reasons for rejecting my run was that I didn't do the glitch. Hope this clears things up. Cheesy

Heidrage

2011-04-01 12:25:04 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

"Oh, I am sorry officer... She looked like she was of age..."

"Sorry son, ignorance is not an excuse!"

Zealie

2011-04-01 06:48:08 am

BTW, would this mean you can never try to speed run Banjo-Kazooie on XBLA?
Because you can't do the ticker tock glitch in that version. (So I heard, cannot actually test it)

I'm just curious about it if it would/should be seen as a different category or if you would just dismiss every run that was made on the XBLA because it cannot do that certain trick there.

mike89

2011-04-01 07:34:39 am

SEGA Junkie

XBLA also can't do text skipping though, which is a much bigger loss. At best it would be a separate category.

ridd3r.

2011-04-01 11:55:20 am

we have lift off

Quote from Jumpman__:

Quote from ridd3r.:

What Ringrush said plus ignorance of SDA rules (not knowing you should use the fastest version) is not a valid reason for reverification.

I'm not sure if you read the entire thread, I knew I was supposed to take the fastest route that's a no brainer. Every run before mine submitted to sda had never used death warping and none have even died by accident so I assumed that dieing was against the rules. My run should be reverified because I completed the run on version 1.1 of the game which, at that time, nobody knew that climbing ticker's tower was impossible to do and I don't think anyone even knew there was a version 1.1 of the game. I completed the run without the glitch because I knew it was impossible for me to do for some reason and three of the verifiers' primary reasons for rejecting my run was that I didn't do the glitch. Hope this clears things up. Cheesy

There are always different versions of console games and the trick was known about so I don't see it as much of a stretch to work that out through planning, though I appreciate your point of view. It basically all boils down to sharing and posting strats given it's your first run. The reason there was no death warping in previous runs is because it's a different category and I assume the runners wanted to get deathless runs. Death warping has been allowed for a while now.

I'd advise you nail a really good rerun (which everyone seems confident you will) and forget about this run. You won't give a shit about this run once your new run is done and it's better to submit a really great first run than a controversial one.

[quote="Jumpman__"][quote="ridd3r."]What Ringrush said plus ignorance of SDA rules (not knowing you should use the fastest version) is not a valid reason for reverification.[/quote]

I'm not sure if you read the entire thread, I knew I was supposed to take the fastest route that's a no brainer. Every run before mine submitted to sda had never used death warping and none have even died by accident so I assumed that dieing was against the rules. My run should be reverified because I completed the run on version 1.1 of the game which, at that time, nobody knew that climbing ticker's tower was impossible to do and I don't think anyone even knew there was a version 1.1 of the game. I completed the run without the glitch because I knew it was impossible for me to do for some reason and three of the verifiers' primary reasons for rejecting my run was that I didn't do the glitch. Hope this clears things up. :D[/quote]

There are always different versions of console games and the trick was known about so I don't see it as much of a stretch to work that out through planning, though I appreciate your point of view. It basically all boils down to sharing and posting strats given it's your first run. The reason there was no death warping in previous runs is because it's a different category and I assume the runners wanted to get deathless runs. Death warping has been allowed for a while now.

I'd advise you nail a really good rerun (which everyone seems confident you will) and forget about this run. You won't give a shit about this run once your new run is done and it's better to submit a really great first run than a controversial one.

Jumpman__

2011-04-01 05:38:07 pm

Banjo Kazooie

Some people are saying that deathless runs are a different category, and some are saying it wouldn't be put in a different category. I would reallllly like to know which is which before I put all my efforts into doing a death warping run. I don't want my run to be looked at like "that guy did the best Banjo Kazooie run ever, but he died several times so it's not as good as the one that survived the whole thing." So far I plan on death warping in ttc, clanker's cavern, bubblegloop swamp and mad monster mansion. I don't mind doing a run with deaths, but if it's put into a different category I'll probably just do it without dieing first.

About the XBLA version, I was wondering if I could do multi segment runs of individual levels. On the leaderboards I got to the top by saving the game to a memory card and redoing segments from most stages. To me this is a great idea but I don't plan on doing it until after I finish the run I'm working on.

moooh

2011-04-01 11:59:15 pm

Exoray

Quote from Jumpman__:

I don't want my run to be looked at like "that guy did the best Banjo Kazooie run ever, but he died several times so it's not as good as the one that survived the whole thing."

This is subjective and you can't control what people will think of it. Some casual viewers will probably think that the one with no deaths is more impressive while most of the speed runners will find the run with deaths more impressive simply because it's faster.
If the only gain in time between the current run and your with deaths run is caused by the time gained from deaths, then a separate category might be added. If you however are faster in a lot of other areas as well, yours will most likely obsolete the current deathless run and you won't have to worry about a viewer comparison.

ridd3r.

Edit history:

ridd3r.: 2011-04-02 02:05:35 am

2011-04-02 02:05:14 am

we have lift off

I would say that if death warping saves 3 minutes and you beat the current record by 4 (or more than 3 anyway) it should obsolete the current record; as long as you don't die anywhere you didn't mean to.

Quote from the rules:
"Deaths: For games in which dying significantly lowers the final time and changes the strategy throughout the run, runs with deaths can be categorized separately."

"significantly" is subjective but I would say a few minutes is significant.

Jumpman__

2011-04-05 04:15:14 pm

Banjo Kazooie

Heidrage has shipped the game and it should be at my house by the end of the week. Whenever it shows up I'm going to start recording.

Here is a minor thing to debate though. Ringrush firmly stands by his argument that rolling as banjo for as long as possible before jumping out of the roll and fluttering with kazooie is faster than jumping out of the roll as soon as possible like I did in my run. He says that the TASers have said that this is the fastest form of movement as Banjo. I do not think it is. Over the past few days that I've been practicing I've been checking my time for spiral mountain. Some runs I use the long roll and some the short roll. I have not been able to get under 2:10 with either method. I'm not saying that I'm right about this but I really think that the difference between the techniques is so small that it's not even relevant. It may save tenths or just hundredths of a second doing it ringrush's way. I believe that Banjo moves at the exact same speed when rolling as he does when jumping and fluttering with kazooie. Please remember that this primarily concerns the first couple of minutes in the game. I most likely will do it the same way that I've always done it, which is just jump out of the roll whenever I feel is the right time. Please discuss which way you guys think is faster and if there is proof that ringrush's way is faster, let me know and I will probably do it that way. ( I do not think that this whole debate matters that much btw, due to the fact that if it is faster and I change my habbits it could save up to less than a second)

Enough of that. Today I'm going to go through and just practice every stage with the routes so far. If anyone has any input about routes for any stage at all let me know. Input on Click Clock Wood, Mad Monster Mansion and Frezeezy would be especially appreciated for today. Grin

Whenever I start recording I plan on getting three decent runs that are less than 2:30, then choosing out of those three which one would be the best to submit. Cheesy

Heidrage has shipped the game and it should be at my house by the end of the week. Whenever it shows up I'm going to start recording.

Here is a minor thing to debate though. Ringrush firmly stands by his argument that rolling as banjo for as long as possible before jumping out of the roll and fluttering with kazooie is faster than jumping out of the roll as soon as possible like I did in my run. He says that the TASers have said that this is the fastest form of movement as Banjo. I do not think it is. Over the past few days that I've been practicing I've been checking my time for spiral mountain. Some runs I use the long roll and some the short roll. I have not been able to get under 2:10 with either method. I'm not saying that I'm right about this but I really think that the difference between the techniques is so small that it's not even relevant. It may save tenths or just hundredths of a second doing it ringrush's way. I believe that Banjo moves at the exact same speed when rolling as he does when jumping and fluttering with kazooie. Please remember that this primarily concerns the first couple of minutes in the game. I most likely will do it the same way that I've always done it, which is just jump out of the roll whenever I feel is the right time. Please discuss which way you guys think is faster and if there is proof that ringrush's way is faster, let me know and I will probably do it that way. ( I do not think that this whole debate matters that much btw, due to the fact that if it is faster and I change my habbits it could save up to less than a second)

Enough of that. Today I'm going to go through and just practice every stage with the routes so far. If anyone has any input about routes for any stage at all let me know. Input on Click Clock Wood, Mad Monster Mansion and Frezeezy would be especially appreciated for today. ;D

Whenever I start recording I plan on getting three decent runs that are less than 2:30, then choosing out of those three which one would be the best to submit. :D

dballin

2011-04-05 04:26:55 pm

Balls jerky

The TAS guys know the fastest way because they watch the RAM address that follows Banjo's speed in an emulator. It's kinda hard to argue with them. Of course, they're also doing things one frame at a time with perfect execution. No matter what you do, human error is going to come into play so figure out what works best for you and do it that way. I'm not saying discredit everything RingRush says and do you're own thing off the bat. If you actually practice it and spend time doing it that way to no time savings, it doesn't make a difference what you do.