Anyone ever consider a 7th Saga speed run?

2014-06-01 04:04:50 pm

Goatragon!

Been running this every so often over the past few months, but I'm now taking both this and Elnard on as my primary projects. My single-segment goal for 7th Saga is going to be to get as close to 6:30 as possible and my single-segment goal for Elnard will be sub-5.

My current RTA PB for 7th Saga is 8:23 and I haven't yet done a first run of Elnard (I did play through it to work out a plan, though), so there's a lot of work yet to do, but I have a plan, so I'm looking forward to seeing how it all goes.

FionordeQuester

2014-07-15 11:29:32 am

Cool Zakky! So, one thing, I've got some RTA strategies that I think would save some significant time over PJ's run. Would you happen to have a twitch channel so I can check out whatever runs you do, and make some suggestions?

Omnigamer

2014-07-15 11:39:24 am

All the things

Quote from FionordeQuester:

Cool Zakky! So, one thing, I've got some RTA strategies that I think would save some significant time over PJ's run. Would you happen to have a twitch channel so I can check out whatever runs you do, and make some suggestions?

Or you could, you know, post them here so people could discuss them openly?

FionordeQuester

2014-07-15 12:03:32 pm

Hmm, alright, that sounds cool as well. Basically, I'm thinking the route would be the same up until you reach Zellis or Bonro or so. After that, instead of looking for Lejes, I was thinking you could recruit Valsu for his Agility spell, and by using that, defeat R. Pison at Level 11-12 or so (yes, that can be done if you have Valsu use Agility and Power and all that. I can even show you the strategy). Then if you say, run into two Brains at once while you're still Level 13-14 (a tough encounter when you're that low leveled), you could revive Valsu to buff up Lux, and have him survive the fights that way.

And yes, I've tested this, and it seemed to save a little bit of time over what PJ did for that section of the game (though I only tested it a few times). Now, that brings up the question "ok, but why skip out on Lejes"? Well, as for that...

I was thinking that, since this is an RTA, it'd be best to put off finding a partner until later, after you've killed the Dragon. That way, you can have the high Elnard gains that you can get in this game, but you wouldn't have to waste time trying to find your partner (since, you know, you can track them via the Orb that Lemele gave you). I believe that this will also save time over what PJ did, because I notice that in his PB, time seems to be wasted due to him either struggling with the encounters, or him needing to use Vacuum 2 on various encounters in order to get more experience.

But if you used MY strategies, the Elnard boosted character, would already be strong enough that he/she can simply run from everything without having to worry about whether or not they'll be strong enough for M. Pison, Gariso, and all those other guys. And if you got lucky, they'd also have much higher Speed than PJ's Lejes had during the mid-game, so running away from everything wouldn't be a problem at all.

Anyways though, that's my advice. What do you all think?

Hmm, alright, that sounds cool as well.  Basically, I'm thinking the route would be the same up until you reach Zellis or Bonro or so.  After that, instead of looking for Lejes, I was thinking you could recruit Valsu for his Agility spell, and by using that, defeat R. Pison at Level 11-12 or so (yes, that can be done if you have Valsu use Agility and Power and all that.  I can even show you the strategy).  Then if you say, run into two Brains at once while you're still Level 13-14 (a tough encounter when you're that low leveled), you could revive Valsu to buff up Lux, and have him survive the fights that way.

And yes, I've tested this, and it seemed to save a little bit of time over what PJ did for that section of the game (though I only tested it a few times).  Now, that brings up the question "ok, but why skip out on Lejes"?  Well, as for that...

I was thinking that, since this is an RTA, it'd be best to put off finding a partner until later, after you've killed the Dragon.  That way, you can have the high Elnard gains that you can get in this game, but you wouldn't have to waste time trying to find your partner (since, you know, you can track them via the Orb that Lemele gave you).  I believe that this will also save time over what PJ did, because I notice that in his PB, time seems to be wasted due to him either struggling with the encounters, or him needing to use Vacuum 2 on various encounters in order to get more experience.

But if you used MY strategies, the Elnard boosted character, would already be strong enough that he/she can simply run from everything without having to worry about whether or not they'll be strong enough for M. Pison, Gariso, and all those other guys.  And if you got lucky, they'd also have much higher Speed than PJ's Lejes had during the mid-game, so running away from everything wouldn't be a problem at all.

Anyways though, that's my advice.  What do you all think?

OptimusPriNe

Edit history:

OptimusPriNe: 2014-12-08 11:01:11 am

2014-12-08 10:59:16 am

Thread has been dead for a bit (maybe rightfully so)...but i'll wake it up again...

A quick background...I've been running this game for about a month or so now (on stream, a bit longer off stream) my current time is 7:38:22 - (http://www.twitch.tv/zombietraine/c/5579491) - RTA Lux/Lejes with Tune-up.

@FionordeQuester - The Agility spell would help, but I seem to be able to get by ok with Lejes at 14 and getting Lux to 13 in order to facilitate that doesn't take too long. The real issue with getting Lejes late is that after you talk to the sage in Eygus, the apprentices start changing locations. Also, the attitude the apprentices have towards you starts to change as well. Lux starts with a 20% chance to recruit Lejes which is already pretty low and the further you go into the game, i can only assume it gets worse. Also, with him changing locations there are many cities you need to check for him (Bonro, Zellis, Eygus, Pell and Guntz) even more if you wait until later in the game and that is changing every ~4 fights. So with such a slim chance of him to join and so many places to check, I think it will take more time to find him and get him to join that late than it would take to just level him. I tested a theory of getting Lux up to 21 (via Brains), then trying to recruit Lejes at 22 (for the higher stat growth) and even at that point it was nearly impossible to find him AND get a positive response.

Regarding Valsu specifically, I did start a run with Valsu and it went really well up until the Cave of Silence portion of the game. Not because he didn't have the ability to use spells (as at that point in the game, his melee attack is better than his Ice 1 spell in most cases) but because Doom/1 run failure will pretty much flatten him. Then of course there is the issue with the dragon that can only be harmed by Fire magic of which Valsu has zero.

I actually do have a question though. I know Kirkq and Nitrodon have worked on a seed manipulation program to get perfect seed RNG every time. I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find that. I've dug around a bunch and I suppose it's entirely possible I missed it, but I can't seem to find it or any information on it. It would be nice to have as I believe I've determined the optimal amount of Speed to have on Lejes to give him the ability to run at least 40% of the time in most fights and shorting the time it takes to get there with an additional 12 Speed with no need to reset would be nice. The numbers, for those that are curious, are 129 for all present day monsters and 139 by the time you get into the past. I usually hit around 129 speed at levels 26-28 when getting 10 speed out of the 3 A. Seeds you can pick up but have been falling short of the 139 needed to have a 40-60% chance to run from things in the past by 1 or 2 points of Speed. I've found that at level 30, when I get into the past I have 138 and that only gives you a 30-40% chance to run from most things (Spirits and Serpants are essentially un-runnable due to their 160 and 180 Speed giving you a 5% chance).

Lastly, for those that are interested, I made a spreadsheet with a chart that determines your chance to run from an enemy as well as their chance to hit you and you to hit them https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArZy1aOLLHFDdDhaQ2tVc3Rid043cWNLbk9IdThtOHc&usp=drive_web#gid=3 (it's pretty accurate I believe). There are also some random notes, a character/spell/level chart and another monster gold/xp chart which are all simply a consolidation of a bunch of other guides. I hope it helps!

Thread has been dead for a bit (maybe rightfully so)...but i'll wake it up again...

A quick background...I've been running this game for about a month or so now (on stream, a bit longer off stream) my current time is 7:38:22 - ([url]http://www.twitch.tv/zombietraine/c/5579491[/url]) - RTA Lux/Lejes with Tune-up.

@FionordeQuester - The Agility spell would help, but I seem to be able to get by ok with Lejes at 14 and getting Lux to 13 in order to facilitate that doesn't take too long. The real issue with getting Lejes late is that after you talk to the sage in Eygus, the apprentices start changing locations. Also, the attitude the apprentices have towards you starts to change as well. Lux starts with a 20% chance to recruit Lejes which is already pretty low and the further you go into the game, i can only assume it gets worse. Also, with him changing locations there are many cities you need to check for him (Bonro, Zellis, Eygus, Pell and Guntz) even more if you wait until later in the game and that is changing every ~4 fights. So with such a slim chance of him to join and so many places to check, I think it will take more time to find him and get him to join that late than it would take to just level him. I tested a theory of getting Lux up to 21 (via Brains), then trying to recruit Lejes at 22 (for the higher stat growth) and even at that point it was nearly impossible to find him AND get a positive response.

Regarding Valsu specifically, I did start a run with Valsu and it went really well up until the Cave of Silence portion of the game. Not because he didn't have the ability to use spells (as at that point in the game, his melee attack is better than his Ice 1 spell in most cases) but because Doom/1 run failure will pretty much flatten him. Then of course there is the issue with the dragon that can only be harmed by Fire magic of which Valsu has zero.

I actually do have a question though. I know Kirkq and Nitrodon have worked on a seed manipulation program to get perfect seed RNG every time. I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find that. I've dug around a bunch and I suppose it's entirely possible I missed it, but I can't seem to find it or any information on it.  It would be nice to have as I believe I've determined the optimal amount of Speed to have on Lejes to give him the ability to run at least 40% of the time in most fights and shorting the time it takes to get there with an additional 12 Speed with no need to reset would be nice. The numbers, for those that are curious, are 129 for all present day monsters and 139 by the time you get into the past. I usually hit around 129 speed at levels 26-28 when getting 10 speed out of the 3 A. Seeds you can pick up but have been falling short of the 139 needed to have a 40-60% chance to run from things in the past by 1 or 2 points of Speed. I've found that at level 30, when I get into the past I have 138 and that only gives you a 30-40% chance to run from most things (Spirits and Serpants are essentially un-runnable due to their 160 and 180 Speed giving you a 5% chance).

Lastly, for those that are interested, I made a spreadsheet with a chart that determines your chance to run from an enemy as well as their chance to hit you and you to hit them [url]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArZy1aOLLHFDdDhaQ2tVc3Rid043cWNLbk9IdThtOHc&usp=drive_web#gid=3[/url] (it's pretty accurate I believe). There are also some random notes, a character/spell/level chart and another monster gold/xp chart which are all simply a consolidation of a bunch of other guides. I hope it helps!

ZakkyTheHybrid

Edit history:

ZakkyTheHybrid: 2014-12-08 01:30:22 pm

ZakkyTheHybrid: 2014-12-08 01:21:15 pm

ZakkyTheHybrid: 2014-12-08 01:20:58 pm

2014-12-08 01:20:46 pm

Goatragon!

Quote from OptimusPriNe:

I actually do have a question though. I know Kirkq and Nitrodon have worked on a seed manipulation program to get perfect seed RNG every time. I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find that. I've dug around a bunch and I suppose it's entirely possible I missed it, but I can't seem to find it or any information on it.

You can send me a PM here or on Twitch (ZakkyDraggy) and I'll be glad to pass it on to you when I have a moment. Also, I've got a set of route notes I work off of that I took from watching a VoD of one of PJ's runs a while back. I'm sure there are a ton of things I could do better, so I'd be glad to pass those along, too, if you'd be interested in taking a look. My current PB is 7:54 and I was on pace for sub-7:30 on my last run until RNG killed things (couldn't find Sky Rune apprentice, bad encounters, etc.).

EDIT: If I remember I'll post the link to my notes later.

OptimusPriNe

2014-12-08 01:51:40 pm

Hey Zakky! I'll shoot you a message on Twitch in a bit. Yeah, my run last night was certainly on pace for sub-7:30 but lost it on the S. Brain grind to 27. Got Vac'd at least 5 times even with the ring on then got to "The Past" and had terrible run luck which finished it off. It was a nightmare...but thats 7th Saga for ya :P. But I'd definitely say something close to 6:30 is very possible.

ZakkyTheHybrid

Edit history:

ZakkyTheHybrid: 2014-12-08 03:20:28 pm

ZakkyTheHybrid: 2014-12-08 03:20:05 pm

2014-12-08 03:19:13 pm

Goatragon!

The S.Brain grind makes me paranoid now when Lejes doesn't dodge and then I consider the past just one huge "cross your fingers and hope".

In my last run the S.Brain grind went slowly and I ended up losing a fair bit of time there. The run completely fell apart at M.Pison. I went in with Lejes poisoned and at a time during the fight when he had 161/165 HP, M.Pison hit Lejes for a 160 crit. Lejes then promptly died from the poison tick. It was the second time I died from a poison tick after being brought down to 1 HP in the run (http://www.twitch.tv/ZakkyDraggy/c/5577000). This time it cost me dearly.

THEN any potential hope of saving any sort of time was wiped out when the game soft-locked when I tried to use a B.Agility on Gariso (http://www.twitch.tv/ZakkyDraggy/c/5577038) and had to reload and fight Monmo again.

And as if to rub it in, the walk through the past went pretty badly, too. But still not the worst run I've had!

PJ

2014-12-08 03:46:17 pm

Is PJ

Oh nice, another runner! Yea, I'd agree that 6:30 is a good goal. I had a run that I did over 2 days (so it doesn't really count for anything except an estimate) that finished in 6:57. There was a ton of room for improvement in that. The only single segment run I have splits for is a 7:26, with close to 40 minutes lost trying to recruit Lejes.

I really want to run this game again, but I simply can't find a block of 8 hours anymore. Maybe after AGDQ?

ZakkyTheHybrid

Edit history:

ZakkyTheHybrid: 2014-12-08 07:10:54 pm

2014-12-08 07:09:53 pm

Goatragon!

Here's the link to the notes that I use for anyone interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-41rWOmUWplGxAJYROpgTt12pocwb15jAdGEK1Jpkqw/edit?usp=sharing

I don't always follow them exactly to the word, as I tend to adapt on the fly sometimes. Also, I'm reconsidering grinding in the cavern under Patrof as I saved a considerable amount of time grinding outside of Pell in my last run attempt due to good luck with getting Brain encounters. So I think it might be better just to try getting lucky with encountering a lot of Brains. But then again it always ends up coming down to luck after all, eh?

OptimusPriNe

2014-12-08 09:17:29 pm

@PJ - 3 way 7th Saga race post-AGDQ?! lol. Zakky and I have agreed to a race this coming Friday so we'll let you know how it goes Tongue

@Zakky - Thanks dood! Pumped for Friday!

ConHuevos

2014-12-09 02:51:01 pm

Ciento Dos Huevos

Oh man, I'm so tuning in for a 7th saga race. I hope PJ can set some time aside for it :D.

PJ

2014-12-09 03:33:39 pm

Is PJ

I'm not going to be in town this weekend. Sad

ZakkyTheHybrid

Edit history:

ZakkyTheHybrid: 2015-01-19 09:30:20 am

2015-01-19 09:29:43 am

Goatragon!

6:54:41
http://www.twitch.tv/zakkythegoatragon/c/5911419

Also, M. Pison is dumb, but what happened in my run shows that in a speedrun you're probably never safe against him.
http://www.twitch.tv/zakkythegoatragon/c/5912270

Full heal to 165 HP, then a crit from M.Pison of 166. Just the worst luck on that hit and in an unfortunate spot. I estimate it cost me 6 minutes give or take. I lost 8 on the split, but I had an encounter it took me a bit to get away from after I succeeded on M.Pison during the second attempt.

Shyft4

2015-02-28 11:24:54 am

I'm starting to run Lux/Valsu (have the cartridge, but running on snes9x 1.53 for now thanks to no proper hardware) and expect to be streaming on www.twitch.tv/shyft4 . Gonna start doing runs Wed, Sat and Sun (my days off). Hoping for first streamed run this Wed 3/4.

Drumboardist

2015-04-02 06:35:23 pm

I'd just like to poke my head in and congratulate Shyft on his 6h24m run of this game! I was giving through to making it my next project (amongst many others), yet it would appear he...did quite the number on this game. Which one of the three teams I was considering, no less! (Pretty much all of them amounted to Lux + someone, the other person being either Esuna, Valsu, or Lejes. Gotta have 'dat castin' power, yo.)

Anywho, congrats chief, and I'll probably still keep tryin' at it. So far, I'm just doin' the rough runs of it, trying to keep my viewers entertained with the mind-numbing grinding. Maybe I'll give you some competition...?

ZakkyTheHybrid

2015-07-23 10:05:29 pm

Goatragon!

Got this about a week ago.
6:06:17

Twitch highlights (My stream dropped once during the run for about a minute or so and Twitch decided to split the VOD of the next part, so there are three parts to it):
http://www.twitch.tv/zakkythegoatragon/v/7894600 (Part 1)
http://www.twitch.tv/zakkythegoatragon/v/7894742 (Part 2)
http://www.twitch.tv/zakkythegoatragon/v/7894903 (Part 3)

Full run on YouTube:

A fairly heavily revised route for the first half of the game from what I used in my 6:54 run with a few "what am I doing" moments (mostly when trying to kill Lux off and earlier at the start of the Red-Pison fight with Heal spell indecision). Given that I attempted a few things on the fly, it worked out well. Only really major mistake was messing up the tune-up glitch once. Had reasonable luck, as well. Shooting for sub-6 next.

FionordeQuester

2015-09-23 11:56:09 am

Zakky...:o

You're so....AWESOME!! Nice! I always knew it was possible to get below 6 and a half hours by using RTA strats rather than single segment strats like what PJ used...but still, SUB 6 HOURS?! That's incredible! And who'dve thought that Esuna and Valsu would make good Elnard partners anyway? I always figured that they just got stomped flat by the endgame bosses even WITH Elnard bonuses.

Haven't watched the actual run yet, but man, I'm looking forward to it!

ZakkyTheHybrid

2015-09-23 12:44:32 pm

Goatragon!

Esuna isn't useful at all and likely won't ever see use in a run.

For this run, I started with Lux, then recruited Valsu solely for the Agility spell to help Lux survive Red Pison. Then I ditched him for Lejes later. The basis of the route is still PJ's route, but the difference is just that a few things were cut (no S. Brain grinding anymore) and others rearranged.

The idea for the new routing came from one of my stream viewers, Mattrick_, and we worked together on what I used in this run. In fact, we even worked on something I used in the run during the run itself!

For sub-6 I just need at least equal luck, to be way more efficient with my menuing and shopping, and to not mess up the tune-up glitch. Hopefully I'll find time to do some runs soon, but it's going to be a challenge trying to set aside the time for runs for a while.