Ys II: Ancient Ys Vanished - The Final Chapter

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2017-08-08 02:44:34 pm

2017-07-18 08:48:30 am

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Ys II: Ancient Ys Vanished - The Final Chapter () (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment] [Easy]

Decision: Accept

Congratulations to Jeff 'Korzic' David!

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2017-07-18 08:48:30 am

Run Information

Ys II: Ancient Ys Vanished - The Final Chapter () (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment] [Easy]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/YS2-v.mp4

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

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Korzic

2017-07-18 03:23:42 pm

Runner here.

I just want to point out that, despite what my run comments and audio commentary currently say, I realized about a week ago that making use of the Time Stop bugs in the Eternal version of the game actually is faster after all (this run is of the Complete version, which patched these bugs). At least I *think* using these bugs will be faster, I haven't managed to complete a decent run using them to be 100% certain; I'm a bit burned out on the game right now. Should this run be accepted, I'll update the comments / audio commentary accordingly.

Anyway, taking into account the detour to get the Time Stop magic, the time save looks to be ~40 seconds faster from continually grinding on Zava, possibly more, since several regular enemies would likely be skipped due to being too low leveled. Also, skipping Druegar initially but then killing him before Dalles for an extra level for both him and Darm could save up to ~20 seconds on those last 2 fights, I think. However, there is a drawback with Eternal, and that is slightly decreased walking speed for NPCs, most noticeable during the Tarf escort mission, which is actually a ~25 second loss.

Altogether, it looks like a timesave of ~35 seconds is possible by running Eternal. Perhaps more, perhaps less, I don't know for sure. Because of these findings, I do plan to try and get a good run of the Eternal version at some point. But I likely won't even do attempts for a while yet, so I've decided to continue with this submission.

Runner here.

I just want to point out that, despite what my run comments and audio commentary currently say, I realized about a week ago that making use of the Time Stop bugs in the Eternal version of the game actually is faster after all (this run is of the Complete version, which patched these bugs).  At least I *think* using these bugs will be faster, I haven't managed to complete a decent run using them to be 100% certain; I'm a bit burned out on the game right now.  Should this run be accepted, I'll update the comments / audio commentary accordingly.

Anyway, taking into account the detour to get the Time Stop magic, the time save looks to be ~40 seconds faster from continually grinding on Zava, possibly more, since several regular enemies would likely be skipped due to being too low leveled.  Also, skipping Druegar initially but then killing him before Dalles for an extra level for both him and Darm could save up to ~20 seconds on those last 2 fights, I think.  However, there is a drawback with Eternal, and that is slightly decreased walking speed for NPCs, most noticeable during the Tarf escort mission, which is actually a ~25 second loss.

Altogether, it looks like a timesave of ~35 seconds is possible by running Eternal.  Perhaps more, perhaps less, I don't know for sure.  Because of these findings, I do plan to try and get a good run of the Eternal version at some point.  But I likely won't even do attempts for a while yet, so I've decided to continue with this submission.

CyberBotX

2017-07-18 09:01:26 pm

Insane Killer Robot

A/C good, no cheating detected. Run looks very solid to me. Grinding is sadly necessary but it is kept to the minimum needed. I see very little in the way of mistakes, and those I did see didn't appear to be too costly. All in all, giving this an accept.

LotBlind

2017-08-01 09:07:23 am

I'm thinking this should possibly be marked NG+ because of the beastiary potion effect, and apparently a "true" NG+ run is only slower on all versions, is that right? It's mostly a technicality. The Time Attack Mode stuff should probably be labeled "Time Attack Mode" not NG+ (or both if you also have the beastiary effect there). BTW does having the stats showing help the run a lot? I think it at least helps with remembering if the next kill will be enough to bring you to the required level or gold.

Why wouldn't you upload the audio commentary as a second track? I suggest just editing whatever you said before the run started into the written notes and cutting the audio so it fits. Worth it for the convenience. Might also wanna include those suspicions about faster versions in as Ideas For Improvement. Also why not link your Strategy Guide seeing as you've got one (of non-standard format but looks nice)?

40:41 - I think it's a mistake running after this guy, instead just reset the screen.
1:05:15 - I presume this is custom text? I hope we won't time anything past the final hit...

Evidence of planning is there for sure. No total bloopers either. A/V and cheating look ok.

accept

I'm thinking this should possibly be marked NG+ because of the beastiary potion effect, and apparently a "true" NG+ run is only slower on all versions, is that right? It's mostly a technicality. The Time Attack Mode stuff should probably be labeled "Time Attack Mode" not NG+ (or both if you also have the beastiary effect there). BTW does having the stats showing help the run a lot? I think it at least helps with remembering if the next kill will be enough to bring you to the required level or gold.

Why wouldn't you upload the audio commentary as a second track? I suggest just editing whatever you said before the run started into the written notes and cutting the audio so it fits. Worth it for the convenience. Might also wanna include those suspicions about faster versions in as Ideas For Improvement. Also why not link your Strategy Guide seeing as you've got one (of non-standard format but looks nice)?

40:41 - I think it's a mistake running after this guy, instead just reset the screen.
1:05:15 - I presume this is custom text? I hope we won't time anything past the final hit...

Evidence of planning is there for sure. No total bloopers either. A/V and cheating look ok.

accept

Korzic

2017-08-01 02:26:47 pm

The thing with the Beastiary Potion is that you don't even need to finish whatever playthrough you drink it in; once you drink it, the effects automatically carry over to other playthroughs as well (at least this is how it works for this game version). The "true" NG+ effects are the extra cutscenes, which aren't present in this run. I had used it in a prior playthrough session to learn all the enemy stats, but didn't bother deleting the corresponding file.

The stats are displayed just to keep track of my level and what item I have equipped. But having the enemy stats displayed is of no benefit to me personally (both sets display together), as I ignore the info altogether, and instead rely on the total EXP and gold count displayed at the bottom of the screen at a couple of certain points. Generally, the same kills are taken throughout the run, with the only real difference being what amount I have clearing the basement, due to it not always being the same enemy that gives a level up down there, given how many there are.

The audio commentary, I couldn't figure out how to add it as a second track, as I'm not very tech savvy. I just read on the knowledge base page that multiple tracks aren't allowed for .avi files, and that's the original filetype that was used for the run recording. So, I'm not really sure how to proceed. The way I did it initially was to just record the media player as the run played back, definitely not ideal.

40:41 - You're probably right, never really thought of that. He's right by the entrance half the time, and about where he was here the other half.
1:05:15 - Yes, it's custom text. If you press Alt + P, you can type a small custom message (29 characters), then display it with P.

The thing with the Beastiary Potion is that you don't even need to finish whatever playthrough you drink it in; once you drink it, the effects automatically carry over to other playthroughs as well (at least this is how it works for this game version).  The "true" NG+ effects are the extra cutscenes, which aren't present in this run.  I had used it in a prior playthrough session to learn all the enemy stats, but didn't bother deleting the corresponding file.

The stats are displayed just to keep track of my level and what item I have equipped.  But having the enemy stats displayed is of no benefit to me personally (both sets display together), as I ignore the info altogether, and instead rely on the total EXP and gold count displayed at the bottom of the screen at a couple of certain points.  Generally, the same kills are taken throughout the run, with the only real difference being what amount I have clearing the basement, due to it not always being the same enemy that gives a level up down there, given how many there are.

The audio commentary, I couldn't figure out how to add it as a second track, as I'm not very tech savvy.  I just read on the knowledge base page that multiple tracks aren't allowed for .avi files, and that's the original filetype that was used for the run recording.  So, I'm not really sure how to proceed.  The way I did it initially was to just record the media player as the run played back, definitely not ideal.

40:41 - You're probably right, never really thought of that.  He's right by the entrance half the time, and about where he was here the other half.
1:05:15 - Yes, it's custom text.  If you press Alt + P, you can type a small custom message (29 characters), then display it with P.

LotBlind

2017-08-02 06:54:51 am

1:05:15 - Wait, you mean the game doesn't have to be modified? That's a weeeiirdd feature for a single-player game to have.

I thought there was a point when you killed four Yuns in the same room leading up to some boss encounter (the worm-head one I think) that looked like they took pretty long to kill and only gave the same EXP as some other monsters from earlier but that was before I noticed that the EXP from each kill is actually dynamic based on your level so maybe they gave you more than that.

AC: Hmm... I'll invite our tech guy to see this thread and maybe he can tell you what to do.

nate

2017-08-02 08:14:14 am

for runs i encode, i add the audio commentary as part of that process. all you have to do is record a .wav file (using e.g. audacity) and upload it using the commentary key, same way you uploaded the avi of the run. be sure to start recording at the exact same time as you start playing the video of the run.

Korzic

Edit history:

Korzic: 2017-08-02 10:14:49 pm

Korzic: 2017-08-02 10:07:08 pm

Korzic: 2017-08-02 09:56:13 pm

2017-08-02 09:50:31 pm

Alright, I've updated the audio commentary and the run comments. Let me know if there's any issues. Also, did you guys need the title screen recorded? It's mostly the same as in the video, just without the title and copyright.

Quote from LotBlind:

1:05:15 - Wait, you mean the game doesn't have to be modified? That's a weeeiirdd feature for a single-player game to have.

Correct, the feature comes with the game. No idea why, but I think it's a neat little touch. It was removed from the Chronicles versions of the game, probably because that version was initially a handheld title, and the later PC versions are basically ports of that.

Quote:

I thought there was a point when you killed four Yuns in the same room leading up to some boss encounter (the worm-head one I think) that looked like they took pretty long to kill and only gave the same EXP as some other monsters from earlier but that was before I noticed that the EXP from each kill is actually dynamic based on your level so maybe they gave you more than that.

I kill those enemies just because they're right in the way, and I'm still short gold for the Hyper Cutter purchase. Not sure if there's a better way to do this (it's mostly a gold issue, not EXP), but if so, I don't think it's much time loss, so long as I keep moving towards the next screen transition... which I didn't do for a couple of them, I know. You're right about the EXP system being dynamic. If you're below the enemy's level, you get double the listed value. You only get the listed value when you're the enemy's level, or one above it; from there it reduces by 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc.

Oh, I forgot to ask, what would be the preferred way of doing a run that abuses the Time Attack glitches? Not sure if I'll even do such a run. But I'm asking because, for Easy difficulty, you don't even need to hit "New Game", just hit Time Attack and then failing to return to the title screen at a specific point will disable Time Attack, and the story's ending sequence will play when the final boss is killed. Very similar to a normal Time Attack run, which I'd rather just play as intended. But for higher difficulties, you need to hit "New Game", and then it's faster to switch between modes (skips some dialogue), and then once you step into the first boss room with the timer running, it's the same as before. It's a short run either way, just that the second option seems more "fair" I guess.

Alright, I've updated the audio commentary and the run comments.  Let me know if there's any issues.  Also, did you guys need the title screen recorded?  It's mostly the same as in the video, just without the title and copyright.

[quote="LotBlind"]1:05:15 - Wait, you mean the game doesn't have to be modified? That's a weeeiirdd feature for a single-player game to have.[/quote]
Correct, the feature comes with the game.  No idea why, but I think it's a neat little touch.  It was removed from the Chronicles versions of the game, probably because that version was initially a handheld title, and the later PC versions are basically ports of that.

[quote]I thought there was a point when you killed four Yuns in the same room leading up to some boss encounter (the worm-head one I think) that looked like they took pretty long to kill and only gave the same EXP as some other monsters from earlier but that was before I noticed that the EXP from each kill is actually dynamic based on your level so maybe they gave you more than that.[/quote]
I kill those enemies just because they're right in the way, and I'm still short gold for the Hyper Cutter purchase.  Not sure if there's a better way to do this (it's mostly a gold issue, not EXP), but if so, I don't think it's much time loss, so long as I keep moving towards the next screen transition... which I didn't do for a couple of them, I know.  You're right about the EXP system being dynamic.  If you're below the enemy's level, you get double the listed value.  You only get the listed value when you're the enemy's level, or one above it; from there it reduces by 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc.

Oh, I forgot to ask, what would be the preferred way of doing a run that abuses the Time Attack glitches?  Not sure if I'll even do such a run.  But I'm asking because, for Easy difficulty, you don't even need to hit "New Game", just hit Time Attack and then failing to return to the title screen at a specific point will disable Time Attack, and the story's ending sequence will play when the final boss is killed.  Very similar to a normal Time Attack run, which I'd rather just play as intended.  But for higher difficulties, you need to hit "New Game", and then it's faster to switch between modes (skips some dialogue), and then once you step into the first boss room with the timer running, it's the same as before.  It's a short run either way, just that the second option seems more "fair" I guess.

LotBlind

2017-08-03 05:19:02 am

So what you're saying is you can...

1) Do a plain Time Attack run to get to its own ending
2) Start a Time Attack run but glitch it so it goes to the Story Mode credits instead, faster than playing through the Story Mode normally but essentially the same as a plain Time Attack run?

I think if the second option is really mostly the same run as the first one, we'll count it out as tautologous. If going Hard difficulty changes it in a significant enough way, that could be a category instead.

Can you switch from Story Mode to Time Attack mode or just from TA to SM?

That other bug you mentioned with quickloading after dying - does that lead you to the Story Mode ending or Time Attack, or either? Sounds like that one changes the picture and so we CAN have a large-skips category for Time Attack mode at least (I'm assuming getting the Story Mode ending is too similar again). If using the quickload glitching changes drastically how you'd get the Story Mode ending vs Time Attack ending, we could then have a category for that. It's a very strange question to be facing: if you start the run in one mode but it ends up going to another mode's credits, which mode have you completed? However, because you're saying you're leaving Time Attack mode half-way through, I feel you're really completing the Story Mode. That would make it a Story Mode (which might not really have to be a category) run with large-skip glitches AFAICS.

As for EXP, do you think you're emphasizing getting kills while below the enemies' level enough in this run then, if it's twice as effective?

So what you're saying is you can...

1) Do a plain Time Attack run to get to its own ending
2) Start a Time Attack run but glitch it so it goes to the Story Mode credits instead, faster than playing through the Story Mode normally but essentially the same as a plain Time Attack run?

I think if the second option is really mostly the same run as the first one, we'll count it out as tautologous. If going Hard difficulty changes it in a significant enough way, that could be a category instead.

Can you switch from Story Mode to Time Attack mode or just from TA to SM?

That other bug you mentioned with quickloading after dying - does that lead you to the Story Mode ending or Time Attack, or either? Sounds like that one changes the picture and so we CAN have a large-skips category for Time Attack mode at least (I'm assuming getting the Story Mode ending is too similar again). If using the quickload glitching changes drastically how you'd get the Story Mode ending vs Time Attack ending, we could then have a category for that. It's a very strange question to be facing: if you start the run in one mode but it ends up going to another mode's credits, which mode have you completed? However, because you're saying you're leaving Time Attack mode half-way through, I feel you're really completing the Story Mode. That would make it a Story Mode (which might not really have to be a category) run with large-skip glitches AFAICS.

As for EXP, do you think you're emphasizing getting kills while below the enemies' level enough in this run then, if it's twice as effective?

Korzic

2017-08-03 03:45:57 pm

Time Attack, as intended, is just going through the 7 bosses one right after the other, then being shown your times for each upon killing the final boss. So yes, abusing these glitches is definitely much faster than a normal story mode run, but also very similar to a non-glitched Time Attack run. Normal difficulty and above (also Easy difficulty, if desired - it's just that TA's default difficulty is Easy) would just head straight to the Sanctuary / Mine as soon as possible, and then stepping into the boss room with the timer running effectively starts the normal TA boss loop. So, for the second option, the first 2-3 minutes would be different, working your way to the first boss to start the loop, as opposed to it starting immediately. In both cases, by failing to return to the title screen at a certain point during the last boss, it effectively switches to story mode, but before the ending sequence starts, the only indication of this is the lack of a timer and music.

Time Attack mode is accessible only from the main menu. Using the second option, you'd need to start story mode, save the game, then return to the main menu and start TA. From there, you'd die ASAP and do the quickload glitch, which makes it so the timer carries over after loading the file. That causes the dialogue boxes to not show up, and it can also mess with how things are triggered. Some of the triggers simply don't work unless you start the screen without the timer running, and so you'd have to save the game, and then reload the file from the main menu to de-activate the timer, but it can sometimes be faster to save and do the quickload thing in TA again right after (the triggers would then function as intended, just skipping the text in the process). It's pretty convoluted, I know.

Regarding EXP, it turned out that a lot of times I was getting double EXP from enemies, but I didn't strictly plan it to be that way, except during the leveling session in the canal. Mostly, I just killed what was directly in my way, and worked out whether or not that was sufficient to face the upcoming boss, and then tried to figure out the best way to get to the needed level. The Shrine in particular, I worked through a couple different grinding spots for the spider before settling on the canal enemies. A lot of times, being too low-leveled isn't worth it, since even though the enemies will give you double EXP, some of them take too long to kill if your STR isn't high enough (a couple examples being the shelled enemies and the magma enemies in the lava area). It's pretty hard to power-level in general, because you'll catch up to the enemies' level without too much trouble.

Time Attack, as intended, is just going through the 7 bosses one right after the other, then being shown your times for each upon killing the final boss.  So yes, abusing these glitches is definitely much faster than a normal story mode run, but also very similar to a non-glitched Time Attack run.  Normal difficulty and above (also Easy difficulty, if desired - it's just that TA's default difficulty is Easy) would just head straight to the Sanctuary / Mine as soon as possible, and then stepping into the boss room with the timer running effectively starts the normal TA boss loop.  So, for the second option, the first 2-3 minutes would be different, working your way to the first boss to start the loop, as opposed to it starting immediately.  In both cases, by failing to return to the title screen at a certain point during the last boss, it effectively switches to story mode, but before the ending sequence starts, the only indication of this is the lack of a timer and music.

Time Attack mode is accessible only from the main menu.  Using the second option, you'd need to start story mode, save the game, then return to the main menu and start TA.  From there, you'd die ASAP and do the quickload glitch, which makes it so the timer carries over after loading the file.  That causes the dialogue boxes to not show up, and it can also mess with how things are triggered.  Some of the triggers simply don't work unless you start the screen without the timer running, and so you'd have to save the game, and then reload the file from the main menu to de-activate the timer, but it can sometimes be faster to save and do the quickload thing in TA again right after (the triggers would then function as intended, just skipping the text in the process).  It's pretty convoluted, I know.

Regarding EXP, it turned out that a lot of times I was getting double EXP from enemies, but I didn't strictly plan it to be that way, except during the leveling session in the canal.  Mostly, I just killed what was directly in my way, and worked out whether or not that was sufficient to face the upcoming boss, and then tried to figure out the best way to get to the needed level.  The Shrine in particular, I worked through a couple different grinding spots for the spider before settling on the canal enemies.  A lot of times, being too low-leveled isn't worth it, since even though the enemies will give you double EXP, some of them take too long to kill if your STR isn't high enough (a couple examples being the shelled enemies and the magma enemies in the lava area).  It's pretty hard to power-level in general, because you'll catch up to the enemies' level without too much trouble.

LotBlind

2017-08-04 11:34:27 am

So is the part that comes after the first 2-3 minutes in this proposed glitched category for Story Mode at ALL different from a normal TA then? Like, do you even have different gear when you're fighting the bosses? Are you on a different EXP level? Second question: is there some category where you're using the glitches you've described (and any others) except it never goes into the boss rush at all? If yes, how different would that be from this submitted category?

Korzic

Edit history:

Korzic: 2017-08-04 09:08:47 pm

Korzic: 2017-08-04 06:02:34 pm

2017-08-04 05:58:21 pm

Quote from LotBlind:

So is the part that comes after the first 2-3 minutes in this proposed glitched category for Story Mode at ALL different from a normal TA then? Like, do you even have different gear when you're fighting the bosses? Are you on a different EXP level?

No, the boss loop is exactly the same; it can be different to start with, if you save the game in the boss room before activating the fight, but in the case of the first boss, it takes too long to be useful, and the remaining bosses would be unchanged anyway. For reference, this is a standard non-glitched Time Attack run, and this is a run doing the first option discussed here, without the 2-3 minutes from selecting "New Game" (I haven't recorded a run yet using that option).

Quote:

Second question: is there some category where you're using the glitches you've described (and any others) except it never goes into the boss rush at all? If yes, how different would that be from this submitted category?

This is the closest run I've done to what you're asking. I didn't mention this option before because it arbitrarily doesn't make full use of the bugs, which would be the options we're already discussing (and also because the route is a little out of date anyway). Anyway, it does sometimes trigger the boss loop briefly, (doing so "fake levels" you to what you'd be in TA, minus actually having the EXP to reflect that), but then escapes to avoid grinding (should normally be impossible to escape the loop, but as mentioned, it's possible to have a different item setup than normal TA when triggering the loop). Another thing it does is enter a defeated boss' room with the timer running, which gives me one of every inventory and equipment item prematurely (but doing so too early can put the game in an unwinnable state). One benefit to doing things along the lines I did in this video is that the final boss is reached from the area that it normally should be (though it's arbitrary to do so), and it does contain some significant skips without completely destroying the game. Trouble is, I wouldn't know where to begin defining a ruleset for this that makes sense and isn't completely arbitrary.

[quote="LotBlind"]So is the part that comes after the first 2-3 minutes in this proposed glitched category for Story Mode at ALL different from a normal TA then? Like, do you even have different gear when you're fighting the bosses? Are you on a different EXP level?[/quote]

No, the boss loop is exactly the same; it [i]can[/i] be different to start with, if you save the game in the boss room before activating the fight, but in the case of the first boss, it takes too long to be useful, and the remaining bosses would be unchanged anyway.  For reference, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cFtF9luiOQ]this[/url] is a standard non-glitched Time Attack run, and [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hhxU1v-hxk]this[/url] is a run doing the first option discussed here, without the 2-3 minutes from selecting "New Game" (I haven't recorded a run yet using that option).

[quote]Second question: is there some category where you're using the glitches you've described (and any others) except it never goes into the boss rush at all? If yes, how different would that be from this submitted category?[/quote]

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7fi2MKFPlw]This[/url] is the closest run I've done to what you're asking.  I didn't mention this option before because it arbitrarily doesn't make full use of the bugs, which would be the options we're already discussing (and also because the route is a little out of date anyway).  Anyway, it does sometimes trigger the boss loop briefly, (doing so "fake levels" you to what you'd be in TA, minus actually having the EXP to reflect that), but then escapes to avoid grinding (should normally be impossible to escape the loop, but as mentioned, it's possible to have a different item setup than normal TA when triggering the loop).  Another thing it does is enter a defeated boss' room with the timer running, which gives me one of every inventory and equipment item prematurely (but doing so too early can put the game in an unwinnable state).  One benefit to doing things along the lines I did in this video is that the final boss is reached from the area that it normally should be (though it's arbitrary to do so), and it does contain some significant skips without completely destroying the game.  Trouble is, I wouldn't know where to begin defining a ruleset for this that makes sense and isn't completely arbitrary.

LotBlind

2017-08-05 11:36:24 am

So firstly, playing on easy and doing the TA-SM transition that way is right out because it's too similar to plain TA. Playing on normal+ is also too similar but would be easier to call a legit SM run because you're starting a SM run as well as ending one. How about this definition:

Never defeat a boss in such a way as to make it directly lead into another boss fight.

Because the run uses an existing save file, it would probably be marked NG+. I don't think we'd time anything that comes before the SM portion has started. If that definition doesn't cut it, feel free to suggest another one, as clean and clear-cut as possible, in bullet points.

Korzic

Edit history:

Korzic: 2017-08-05 01:54:50 pm

Korzic: 2017-08-05 01:28:40 pm

Korzic: 2017-08-05 01:26:04 pm

Korzic: 2017-08-05 01:24:35 pm

2017-08-05 12:01:47 pm

Quote from LotBlind:

Never defeat a boss in such a way as to make it directly lead into another boss fight.

I've no issue with this. However, with an updated route of the last run I linked, there comes a point where I could defeat the lava boss with a warp item equipped, let it continue to the next boss in the loop (spider), but then escape using the warp item. Then I'd re-do the lava boss, again let it take me to the spider boss, but because of a quirk with how the game handles that boss being restarted (exiting and re-entering the room), I could save the game before fighting him, and re-load the file as intended to skip ahead to the Shrine. This would be necessary to getting all items at an earlier point and still finishing the game (otherwise I have no way into the Shrine). Otherwise it's just an optimized run of the last link I posted, which has the same basic route of the submitted run (just with text skipping) up through the lava area, and then skips in the Shrine.

I guess if I have to put it into bullet points, my suggestion would be:

- Reach the final boss from the normal story mode area*

*Technically, it'd still do as the submitted run does, and skip that screen with the collapsing platforms.

Advantages of your proposed suggestion:

- The story mode portions make more sense
- Bosses are fought when you get to the appropriate story mode area
- The Shrine is shortened from using the all items glitch once entry is possible

Disadvantages of your proposed suggestion:

- The Mine, Ice Ridge, and Moat of Burnedbless are too similar to a regular story mode run, due to using the all items glitch at a later point
- The second Shrine boss, Zava, is skipped

---

Advantages of my proposed suggestion:

- Skips the Basement grinding, as well as a chunk of the Ice Ridge and Moat of Burnedbless, due to using the all items glitch sooner
- The Shrine is shortened from using the all items glitch

Disadvantages of my proposed suggestion:

- The Mine still has to be played similar to the submitted run, since using the all items glitch too early prevents access to the Ice Ridge
- The boss loop is abused to enter the Shrine directly after defeating the lava boss, since using the all items glitch as early as it does will not allow it to be entered through normal story mode means
- The second Shrine boss, Zava, is skipped

Quote:

Because the run uses an existing save file, it would probably be marked NG+. I don't think we'd time anything that comes before the SM portion has started.

Save files don't carry over between playthroughs; this would start story mode right away and creates its own save files to abuse the glitches. Separate from this, the game does retain any beastiary data, and also whether or not the game has already been beaten so it can be "NG+" in the first place (Time Attack unlocked and extra story mode scenes).

[quote="LotBlind"]Never defeat a boss in such a way as to make it directly lead into another boss fight.[/quote]

I've no issue with this.  However, with an updated route of the last run I linked, there comes a point where I could defeat the lava boss with a warp item equipped, let it continue to the next boss in the loop (spider), but then escape using the warp item.  Then I'd re-do the lava boss, again let it take me to the spider boss, but because of a quirk with how the game handles that boss being restarted (exiting and re-entering the room), I could save the game before fighting him, and re-load the file as intended to skip ahead to the Shrine.  This would be necessary to getting all items at an earlier point and still finishing the game (otherwise I have no way into the Shrine).  Otherwise it's just an optimized run of the last link I posted, which has the same basic route of the submitted run (just with text skipping) up through the lava area, and then skips in the Shrine.

I guess if I have to put it into bullet points, my suggestion would be:

- Reach the final boss from the normal story mode area*

*Technically, it'd still do as the submitted run does, and skip that screen with the collapsing platforms.

[u]Advantages of your proposed suggestion:[/u]

- The story mode portions make more sense
- Bosses are fought when you get to the appropriate story mode area
- The Shrine is shortened from using the all items glitch once entry is possible

[u]Disadvantages of your proposed suggestion:[/u]

- The Mine, Ice Ridge, and Moat of Burnedbless are too similar to a regular story mode run, due to using the all items glitch at a later point
- The second Shrine boss, Zava, is skipped

---

[u]Advantages of my proposed suggestion:[/u]

- Skips the Basement grinding, as well as a chunk of the Ice Ridge and Moat of Burnedbless, due to using the all items glitch sooner
- The Shrine is shortened from using the all items glitch

[u]Disadvantages of my proposed suggestion:[/u]

- The Mine still has to be played similar to the submitted run, since using the all items glitch too early prevents access to the Ice Ridge 
- The boss loop is abused to enter the Shrine directly after defeating the lava boss, since using the all items glitch as early as it does will not allow it to be entered through normal story mode means
- The second Shrine boss, Zava, is skipped

[quote]Because the run uses an existing save file, it would probably be marked NG+. I don't think we'd time anything that comes before the SM portion has started.[/quote]

Save files don't carry over between playthroughs; this would start story mode right away and creates its own save files to abuse the glitches.  Separate from this, the game does retain any beastiary data, and also whether or not the game has already been beaten so it can be "NG+" in the first place (Time Attack unlocked and extra story mode scenes).

LotBlind

2017-08-06 12:26:37 pm

So does it help if we amend the definition to "never defeat two bosses in a row"? I guess not really cause it sounds like you could go to the next boss, walk out or warp out or whatever it takes, then directly return to them again?

Is there like a different boss order so you could avoid the TA warp altogether?

Skipping a boss doesn't sound like a problem honestly. So are you saying that even if you get to abuse the boss loop, there's no faster way to reach the final boss "naturally" than the one you've outlined? So there's nothing like "fight the other 6 bosses through the loop, do something to break it, then take some extra steps to get to the final boss"?

NG+ - okay, nevermind.

Korzic

Edit history:

Korzic: 2017-08-06 01:45:59 pm

2017-08-06 01:39:40 pm

Quote from LotBlind:

So does it help if we amend the definition to "never defeat two bosses in a row"? I guess not really cause it sounds like you could go to the next boss, walk out or warp out or whatever it takes, then directly return to them again?

My proposed suggestion would likely kill the spider directly after the lava boss, just that the spider kill won't be with the boss loop active. Killing the spider after taking care of some story bits in the Shrine is possible, but it's still the same boss order.

That behavior with starting and breaking the loop doesn't work with regards to the 3 bosses prior to the spider. Well, technically, you can still break the loop, just that after warping in those instances, there's no way to directly return to the boss room without playing up to that point in story mode. Since the warp function is being used, you need to have a nearby warp location unlocked for it to be of any use, and those must be obtained by visiting the area in story mode (the 2nd and 3rd warps being in the lava area). The spider is a special case with the behavior described in that, using the above steps, you can save before the fight triggers. You could also do something similar with the next 2 bosses, but it's not possible to break the loop if it's still active upon killing the spider, and so you'd have to manually make your way to the next boss and start the loop from there, which isn't worth it.

Quote:

Is there like a different boss order so you could avoid the TA warp altogether?

Of the bosses faced, there isn't a different order to do them. Technically, you could do the skipped boss before the spider with the use of these glitches, but there's no point. As far as I know, there's no getting around abusing the loop as described, unless the game is played normally up until entering the Shrine as intended is possible.

Quote:

Skipping a boss doesn't sound like a problem honestly. So are you saying that even if you get to abuse the boss loop, there's no faster way to reach the final boss "naturally" than the one you've outlined? So there's nothing like "fight the other 6 bosses through the loop, do something to break it, then take some extra steps to get to the final boss"?

As far as I know, this is the fastest way to reach the final boss "naturally". The spider is the only boss that's reached through use of the boss loop; the others would be reached when you've made the appropriate story mode progress. There's no way I know of to fight the majority of bosses via the loop, but then return to a point in story mode (excepting the rejected methods discussed before, but even then, that's just limited to the screen where you fight the final boss). If you started the loop at the skipped boss or the one right after, then yes, but there's no point to that as far as I can see. Starting the loop from the first 2 bosses wouldn't allow for any story progress to be made, and the loop is inescapable anyway if you don't escape right after killing whichever one you start it from.

Sorry if this stuff isn't making a whole lot of sense. I know it's convoluted, but I don't really know a better way of explaining things.

[quote="LotBlind"]So does it help if we amend the definition to "never defeat two bosses in a row"? I guess not really cause it sounds like you could go to the next boss, walk out or warp out or whatever it takes, then directly return to them again?[/quote]

My proposed suggestion would likely kill the spider directly after the lava boss, just that the spider kill won't be with the boss loop active.  Killing the spider after taking care of some story bits in the Shrine is possible, but it's still the same boss order.

That behavior with starting and breaking the loop doesn't work with regards to the 3 bosses prior to the spider.  Well, technically, you can still break the loop, just that after warping in those instances, there's no way to directly return to the boss room without playing up to that point in story mode.  Since the warp function is being used, you need to have a nearby warp location unlocked for it to be of any use, and those must be obtained by visiting the area in story mode (the 2nd and 3rd warps being in the lava area).  The spider is a special case with the behavior described in that, using the above steps, you can save before the fight triggers.  You could also do something similar with the next 2 bosses, but it's not possible to break the loop if it's still active upon killing the spider, and so you'd have to manually make your way to the next boss and start the loop from there, which isn't worth it.

[quote]Is there like a different boss order so you could avoid the TA warp altogether?[/quote]

Of the bosses faced, there isn't a different order to do them.  Technically, you could do the skipped boss before the spider with the use of these glitches, but there's no point.  As far as I know, there's no getting around abusing the loop as described, unless the game is played normally up until entering the Shrine as intended is possible.

[quote]Skipping a boss doesn't sound like a problem honestly. So are you saying that even if you get to abuse the boss loop, there's no faster way to reach the final boss "naturally" than the one you've outlined? So there's nothing like "fight the other 6 bosses through the loop, do something to break it, then take some extra steps to get to the final boss"?[/quote]

As far as I know, this is the fastest way to reach the final boss "naturally".  The spider is the only boss that's reached through use of the boss loop; the others would be reached when you've made the appropriate story mode progress.  There's no way I know of to fight the majority of bosses via the loop, but then return to a point in story mode (excepting the rejected methods discussed before, but even then, that's just limited to the screen where you fight the final boss).  If you started the loop at the skipped boss or the one right after, then yes, but there's no point to that as far as I can see.  Starting the loop from the first 2 bosses wouldn't allow for any story progress to be made, and the loop is inescapable anyway if you don't escape right after killing whichever one you start it from.

Sorry if this stuff isn't making a whole lot of sense.  I know it's convoluted, but I don't really know a better way of explaining things.

SDAVerification

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2017-08-08 02:45:14 pm

2017-08-08 02:44:35 pm

Decision posted.
(but feel free to continue the category discussion)

LotBlind

2017-08-09 11:48:41 am

Just to let you know Korzic: there's no decision yet about this category so hang on while we talk it out.

Korzic

Edit history:

Korzic: 2017-08-09 01:08:32 pm

2017-08-09 01:05:47 pm

That's fine. As I said earlier, I'm kinda burned out on the game right now, so I doubt I'll be doing more runs just yet. Or did you mean how to categorize the submitted run?

In the meantime, is there anything else you guys need from me for this submission?