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My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: Doesn't exist yet.

Bart 'TheVoid' De Waal's run

Verifier Responses

Quote:
He has to write the comments.

I had to watch the run.

He got it done pretty darn fast.

I'm going to say accept.

Time it took for me to finish this verification: 25 seconds. Yeah. It took less time to write this than to watch the video.


Quote:
Well, I was so surprised by the twist ending that I ended up spilling jam all over my brand new jeans.  I hope you all are happy.

The run looked fine, so that would be a yes.

HOWEVER! *gasp!*

Does SDA allow flash runs?  It isn't a console game, nor is it technically a PC game...  I have to say, the run looked fine (thus my initial yes) but since it isn't a PC game per se', I am a little hesitant to accept.


Quote:
I'm rejecting this because it's fucking stupid.  It's also improvable by a few frames, which is notable in a run that takes less time than I would spend taking a deep breath, but that's besides the point.  This doesn't show any skill or planning or anything.  Just because this isn't explicitly against any rules for submission doesn't make it against the laws of decency.  REJECT REJECT REJECT REJECT ARGH.


Quote:
Quote:
Are we seriously going to accept this on the site?  It's such a short and stupid game that practically anyone can claim the WR after two or three tries.  The fact that it even needs to get verified is really, really sad.


His logic is a bit flawed since  A) we host some really short runs already, B) anyone could claim the wr at any game that's already on the site, and C) getting :33 isn't all that easy.

Oh, and the run was nice.


Quote:
This run has one mistake, but it makes no difference because it doesn't cost enough frames to bump up the time 34 seconds, nor can this run be improved to 32 seconds (or if it's possible, then it's really really really hard).


Decision: Accept

Reason: I have to accept this run. You have to watch this run.
Thread title:  
(user is banned)
Because of my post in my topic "speedrunning famous flash game?", I would just let people know that I'm not verifier #3, but beside some censorious words I have the same opinion as him.
A run of this game has caused a bit of commotion Wink

And yeah the third jump was a bit icky, maybe I'll polish it up sometime.
gamelogs.org
i think noncommercial games should be allowed on the site but go in their own section, ie not listed as pc but rather "noncommercial" or something of the like.
Why not just create FlashDemosArchive or something? Clearly there are many members (me included) opposed to mixing them in with published commercial games. With some exceptions, they are far easier to run, far less interesting to watch, and have a much higher potential to crowd the front page. If you don't seperate, can we at least do one flash game batch every 1-2 months? I don't want every other update being a six second game.
Quote from RingRush:
Why not just create FlashDemosArchive or something? Clearly there are many members (me included) opposed to mixing them in with published commercial games.


I don't think many people are strictly opposed to Flash games per se. (Would you object to having a run of N on the site? I wouldn't.)

Speaking for myself, what I object to is runs of games that are, even when played normally, very short, simple, and easy, such that the only challenge for a speedrunner is minor optimisations. There has to be something else there - like luck manipulation (Clue) or route planning or sequence breaking (In 60 Seconds) - for the run to be worthwhile. We've been told that a game where you 'press a button to win' wouldn't be allowed. Apparently a run consisting of 13 jumps (out of which, only the timing of 9 affects the final run time), however, is enough to be a legitimate SDA run.

So my question for Mike is: if a run that consists purely of optimally timing 9 button presses is enough for SDA, but one button press isn't, then where do we draw the line? You have 8 options left.

Edit: Before someone objects, I accept that claiming that the YHTBTR run consists purely of optimally timing 9 button presses is a slight overstatement of my case, since there's the added complication of having to change direction a couple of times and timing the release of the jump button matters for a few of the jumps as well. There's also maybe 10 seconds of thought and planning involved in figuring out the optimal route. However, I'm hardly overstating my case by very much.
Hail Discordia!
The moment I saw this topic title in my mail inbox I thought it was a joke. Which this game is, in the first place. It's simple, it's stupid, it's not interesting, and I believe games like this were the exact reason freeware titles weren't accepted here for the longest time.*

* — I do realize that many commercial games also fall under this description, but even something as horrid (going by general opinion) as Dark Castle offers a whole universe more in terms of speedrunning compared to You Have to Burn the Rope.
welcome to the machine
At least wait until april 1st to post this.
Quote from Arkarian:
i think noncommercial games should be allowed on the site but go in their own section, ie not listed as pc but rather "noncommercial" or something of the like.


THIS. Holy shit, this.

I'm not opposed to flash or noncommercial games since there's a lot of really good ones, but I don't want to see my SDA get oversaturated as such.
This game is retarded. I wonder if I should make a game that requires you to run straight forward and the only thing you need to do is to time a button when you shoot and enemy so that the gun shot hits it at the very frame when the enemy spawns. And then I'll make a run of it and submit, awesome.

Sure, it's a speedrun but the game is made to complete this fast anyway, so what's the purpose?
We all scream for Eyes Cream
Quote from Tompa:
Sure, it's a speedrun but the game is made to complete this fast anyway, so what's the purpose?


In that case, what's the purpose of running Racing games?
In racing games you require skill to be able to get a fast time, it isn't made so that anyone can get the fastest time without any practice or so. A person who plays through the game for his/her first time can basically get the same time as this.

Lots of games are made to play fast, but they require you to be good at the game in order to accomplish the goal.
We all scream for Eyes Cream
I'm pretty sure a first-timer wouldn't be able to beat the game faster than most people as they'll be trying to enjoy the game as much as possible like usual first-timers will. And who's to say there's no skill required in this game to get a fast time? Just because its easy doesn't make it skill-less. In that case why have (most) NG+ runs as well since its basically running through the game with all the strongest items and abilities already obtained. Not really skilled right there based on what you say.
Don't MAKE me come down these stairs
Quote from Axel Ryman:
I'm pretty sure a first-timer wouldn't be able to beat the game faster than most people as they'll be trying to enjoy the game as much as possible like usual first-timers will.


So I can perform a decent speedrun of this game on my first try as long as I don't enjoy it?
we have lift off
Quote from thri11ki11:
Quote from Axel Ryman:
I'm pretty sure a first-timer wouldn't be able to beat the game faster than most people as they'll be trying to enjoy the game as much as possible like usual first-timers will.


So I can perform a decent speedrun of this game on my first try as long as I don't enjoy it?


What the hell are you talking about? You might try Speedrunning it straight away but I can guarantee you, you wouldn't be able to get a 0:33 on your first attempt. Who is to say whether you would enjoy trying to Speedrun it anymore than just playing it through? You know what he meant was that on your first try you will be exploring it (though obviously that is very limited with a game like this, but not totally limited) and so won't be able to just blast through it, timing every jump you don't even know is coming perfectly...

I can fully understand people thinking a run like this crosses the line and should not be accepted, I just don't get why people see this as any different to a Clue run. This game involves far more skill than that. ExplodingCabbage, you talk about only having to time 9 jumps perfectly, that game involved NO timing whatsoever. I really think a line should have been drawn earlier as any game takes more skill than Clue. Runs like this and Clue should be kept to casual Speedrunning or as some people are suggesting, on a new section on the site. However, since Clue was accepted along with all the other runs, now ANY run qualifies to make it onto the main site.
Edit history:
Shuda51: 2009-12-21 02:40:39 pm
The Running Failure
All right, let's try to put this to rest:

1. Yes, it's short. But we allow Clue, WHICH IS 3 BLOODY SECONDS. And all that run does is some pretty decent luck manipulation.

2. Despite your criticism, this game does require the tiniest amount of skill. No, not Mega Man skill, but just simple timing skill, and there are alot of people who's brain gets fried trying to do that.

3. There is more than timing also. You do move in directions other than straight and if you miss the torch, you fubar'd yourself.

4. I agree with Akrarian on non-commercial section.

5. A first timer would not be able to beat the game this fast.

6. Clue is a commercial game, and therefore under most of the arguments being made, is allowed on the main site.

7. YHTBTR is not one of my favorites, but it was a good run of the game itself. Yes, after some time, YOU might beat it. If you do, then post it on here and complain about it some more. Or rather, don't please. I got enough of a headache as it is from listening to this Allow/Don't fight. Makes no sense for us to be arguing over something so insignificant.
boss
Not this retarded discussion again.

From the FAQ page:
Quote:
we will accept any game where the speed of a speedrun is faster than that of experienced, normal play

If you're still simply ignorant and most probably not even a speedrunner - go try get :33 in this game, I double dare you.

Also:
Quote:
1. Yes, it's short. But we allow Clue, WHICH IS 3 BLOODY SECONDS. And all that run does is the world's best luck manipulation.

Not even close.
Just call me the cynicism machine
I was verifier #3.  I stand by my statements.  I know that this was submitted/accepted just because some people had some time to kill and thought it would be funny, but I seriously think that this cheapens the site.  If it were an April Fool's joke, then it would be fine, but this is a legit submission.

On top of that, groobo was really spot on when he posted this:
Quote from groobo:
From the FAQ page:
Quote:
we will accept any game where the speed of a speedrun is faster than that of experienced, normal play

If you're still simply ignorant and most probably not even a speedrunner - go try get :33 in this game, I double dare you.


It's exactly what a few people are going to be upset about: this game is insanely easy to beat at this speed.  I doubt there is anyone on this site who couldn't match the speed of this within 20 attempts.  There isn't anything impressive at all.
boss
Between words, your biased response actually proved that the run does get approved by the "if it's faster than a regular playthrough" rule. Also, have you already tried to get :33? I'm asking since you didn't mention it so I guess you didn't, even though you perfectly fit to the description of whom I addressed in my previous post.
we have lift off
Quote from Shuda51:
1. Yes, it's short. But we allow Clue, WHICH IS 3 BLOODY SECONDS. And all that run does is the world's best luck manipulation.


I hope that's a joke.

Quote from Shuda51:
6. Clue is a commercial game, and therefore under most of the arguments being made, is allowed on the main site.


Commercial or non commercial doesn't enter into it seeing as how SDA accepts flash runs now.

Quote from Zurreco:
I doubt there is anyone on this site who couldn't match the speed of this within 20 attempts.  There isn't anything impressive at all.


I seriously doubt that's true. You would be lucky to get this in 20 attempts. You have to get lucky for the final cutscene to kick in quickly, sometimes it takes a bit too long which knocks it over to a 0:34. It's a bit of a moot point as I am assuming you didn't mean that literally and were just emphasizing that this run can be done by anyone in a short period of time, which I would agree with. Still I bet 99% of people haven't tried running this. I am not saying it is hard, but it is harder than people are making out.

Still I think the suggestion to put this in another category is a good idea.
Waiting hurts my soul...
I think there should be a Flash games section as a platform. I mean if you're looking for a PC game to watch, you're probably not looking for a Flash/browser game. Also, if you're looking for Flash games, do you want them all jumbled with the rest of the PC games? I suggest one of these Flash/Browser/Web/Internet as the moniker for this section. Flash isn't the only Web based platform though since there's Java and Shockwave. Although most games are in Flash, I don't think it should be a limiting category.

SDA should also think about where mobile games might fit in. I think a Mobile category might work for that, but things like the iTouch aren't really mobile devices. Personally I think we should break the games into their specific platforms like Windows, Mac, Dos, Linux, Flash, and whatever else. Keeping the forums general enough to discuss the games works for now, but if there's a flood of 100 - 200 new flash game threads cluttering up the PC section, the non-Flash gamers might be upset.

I'm against having a separate site because it just didn't work out last time there was one, and it'd put Flash games in a place lower than the other runs on the site, which would be a shame.
Edit history:
Kabuto: 2009-12-21 01:20:49 pm
I also recommend putting Flash games (or freeware games in general) into their own category.

Technically, Flash files aren't PC games. They contain bytecode for a "virtual" platform that doesn't exist in hardware and has to be emulated in software. Therefore, Adobe Flash Player serves as a kind of "official emulator". Also, Flash files aren't limited to PCs, there are official players for Mac, PS3/PSP and Wii.

EDIT: replaced this paragraph. After some thoughts I see that there's no simple definition of VM. Sure you can tell Scumm games to be VMs. Or Game Maker which just bundles the game source files with a player executable. Or Quake 3 where mods use to implement their game logic in a virtual machine. What justifies a game to be called consisting of a VM? Turing completeness of the interpreter?
Quote from groobo:
Not this retarded discussion again.

From the FAQ page:
Quote:
we will accept any game where the speed of a speedrun is faster than that of experienced, normal play

If you're still simply ignorant and most probably not even a speedrunner - go try get :33 in this game, I double dare you.

Also:
Quote:
1. Yes, it's short. But we allow Clue, WHICH IS 3 BLOODY SECONDS. And all that run does is the world's best luck manipulation.

Not even close.


1) The FAQ is out of date and full of stuff which is wrong, so it isn't a reliable source. Even if we accept the 'faster than experienced, normal play' rule, it doesn't help because it's already been established that 'faster' doesn't mean mere frames faster (or 'press X to win' games would be accepted) or even seconds faster (or Quest For The Crown would be accepted). We don't know where the line is drawn, and that's what - from my perspective, anyway - this argument is about.
2) Why do you have to be a dick? There was no reason to wade in calling people ignorant and retarded here.
3) Whether Clue counts as the world's best luck manipulation depends on what you mean by that; it's certainly not an unreasonable label to put on it. (If you measure it in terms of the proportion of a typical game that gets skipped, then it definitely IS the world's best luck manipulation. It arguably is if you measure it in terms of the comedy value added to the run by the luck manipulation, too.)
Waiting hurts my soul...
Quote from ExplodingCabbage:
Quote from groobo:
Not this retarded discussion again.

From the FAQ page:
Quote:
we will accept any game where the speed of a speedrun is faster than that of experienced, normal play

If you're still simply ignorant and most probably not even a speedrunner - go try get :33 in this game, I double dare you.

Also:
Quote:
1. Yes, it's short. But we allow Clue, WHICH IS 3 BLOODY SECONDS. And all that run does is the world's best luck manipulation.

Not even close.


1) The FAQ is out of date and full of stuff which is wrong, so it isn't a reliable source. Even if we accept the 'faster than experienced, normal play' rule, it doesn't help because it's already been established that 'faster' doesn't mean mere frames faster (or 'press X to win' games would be accepted) or even seconds faster (or Quest For The Crown would be accepted). We don't know where the line is drawn, and that's what - from my perspective, anyway - this argument is about.
2) Why do you have to be a dick? There was no reason to wade in calling people ignorant and retarded here.
3) Whether Clue counts as the world's best luck manipulation depends on what you mean by that; it's certainly not an unreasonable label to put on it. (If you measure it in terms of the proportion of a typical game that gets skipped, then it definitely IS the world's best luck manipulation. It arguably is if you measure it in terms of the comedy value added to the run by the luck manipulation, too.)

I think the issue was with calling it "world's best" since it really isn't. There's a 1/324 (9 rooms, 6 characters, 6 weapons) chance that you'll be able to reproduce the run 100%.


To anyone that says there's no skill in the YHtBtR run should try to get a 33 second video within the first 20 tries. After beating the game before I did a quick play through with a little optimization and got 40 seconds within 10 minutes of trying. 33 seconds seems pretty fast to me.

I think everyone can agree that the game is hardly a game, not a lot of depth here. But are people worried that a run of this won't be impressive or that it'll lack entertainment value? There are plenty of other Flash games out there that would have been a greater addition than this, but at least this is a start to show that Flash games are accepted now.

I think the once a month update for Flash games (in case there's a huge influx all of a sudden), and having them in their own platform so they don't show up in a search of PC games would be best. I'm not even sure the once a month update thing is necessary, but we'll have to see now that people have started to take notice that Flash game speedruns are accepted.

I think Mike should list in the verification topic if a game is Flash or not since Starcom PC and MAC might be a little misleading since you should be able to verify if you've played it on any Flash enabled device. Plus it might get verifiers quicker if someone can play the game readily for free.
I survived MIKE-Fest 1
+1 for the own plattform/section idear