World of Goo - March 1, 2022

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2022-03-01 12:58:08 pm

SDAVerification: 2022-03-01 12:57:16 pm

2022-01-29 06:36:34 am

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/WorldOfGoo.html

World of Goo (pc) (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment]

Decision: Reject

Reason: About the A/V. This game uses in-game timing, which in this game means that only the levels are timed. The freezes in the cutscenes are therefore not showstoppers by default.

The gameplay appears to generally be of high quality, emphasized by the fact that it's currently the record in this category. There are however at least three levels with significant time losses. The biggest time loss (up to a minute) seems to be attributed to terrible RNG, which none of the other comparable runs suffered from. This would indicate that it's a potential time gain that should be fairly easy to implement. The two other levels with big time losses appear to either be due to questionable execution and/or not implementing faster routes that were known at the time.

Despite this being well ahead of the currently published run (and even being the current record in this category), there is significant time left on the table to save that hasn't been explained. The submission is therefore rejected. If future discussion brings more light on e.g. the major time losses, the decision can be revisited.

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/verificationfiles/2399/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.

Thread title:

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/WorldOfGoo.html

World of Goo (pc) (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment]

[b]Decision:[/b] Reject

[b]Reason:[/b] About the A/V. This game uses in-game timing, which in this game means that only the levels are timed. The freezes in the cutscenes are therefore not showstoppers by default.

The gameplay appears to generally be of high quality, emphasized by the fact that it's currently the record in this category. There are however at least three levels with significant time losses. The biggest time loss (up to a minute) seems to be attributed to terrible RNG, which none of the other comparable runs suffered from. This would indicate that it's a potential time gain that should be fairly easy to implement. The two other levels with big time losses appear to either be due to questionable execution and/or not implementing faster routes that were known at the time.

Despite this being well ahead of the currently published run (and even being the current record in this category), there is significant time left on the table to save that hasn't been explained. The submission is therefore rejected. If future discussion brings more light on e.g. the major time losses, the decision can be revisited.

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/verificationfiles/2399/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.

SDAVerification

2022-01-29 06:36:34 am

Run Information

World of Goo (pc) (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/WorldOfGoo-20220128/World%20Of%20Goo%20Speedrun%20-Any-%20No%20Skips-%20-4641-WORLD%20RECORD.mp4

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). If you wish to remain anonymous, you can also send a pm with your reply to 'sdaverification' (please state clearly in that case which run you have verified). This is not a contest where the majority wins - Each verification will be judged on its content.

LotBlind

2022-02-05 01:49:41 pm

Just for reference, some data from the Speedrun.com page.

"The cutscene skip glitch is banned because it requires using another file to set up, as well as being extremely tedious to set up. Skipping cutscenes by closing the game is also banned."

The first rule is already on the SDA game page so no reason to talk about it here. The second rule isn't but is it also because it adds a lot to the real time for this run? And messes up recordings?

Looks like this runner has the records in all the categories of the game, at least as far as Speedrun.com is concerned. There doesn't seem to be as much competition as you'd expect for such a well-known indie hit, and those records are sitting very comfortably at the top since last year. Maybe the skillset is very specific? Actually he seems to be comparing against some other run (old WR) that's IGT 10 seconds slower than this so scratch that bit about no competition. The last SDA record holder was a guy whom I knew as a Max Payne speedrun primarily so I'm surprised he ran this game as well! But that's an aside here.

A/V: This is at 30 FPS but the game is at 60 based on this video (using frame advance keys . and , on the 60-frames setting shows no duplicate frames mostly). The old run was also at 30. The live splits can be cropped and there's nothing on top of the game window. The sounds are a little low but present.

20:42 - The game screen is frozen here for some reason. It's in the middle of a cutscene.
29:30 - The same. Also during a cutscene.
29:46 to 30:08 - A very long freeze here and another later in the same cutscene. Wait, you didn't ALT-TAB out of the game during these freezes did you? Cause this is what happens in some cases if you do.
46:49 - Here the runner unmutes his mic. It's after timing is up so it's not something that causes an automatic reject but it does make it a little more difficult to justify leaving the end cutscene in. I don't currently know what the timing method was last time.

This run uses a wider aspect ratio that seems to sometimes benefit the runner a moderate amount in moving the goo balls around.

I did a good old-fashioned side-by-side comparison of the old SDA record and this run for fun:

Chapter 1

Going Up - tie at 4
Small Divide - minus 3 (old run has a mistake here already)
Hang Low - minus 2
Flying Machine - minus 1
Tumbler: minus 1
Fisty's Bog: minus 5
Ivy Towers: minus 11 (Here your run notes say the time is 0:06 when the game shows 0:05.)
Impale Sticky: minus 8
Chain: minus 15
Tower Of Goo: minus 9
Ode To The Bridge Builder: minus 12
Regurgitation Pumping Station: minus not sure what, but this sure looks pretty epic!

Chapter 2

Drool: minus 6
Fly Away Little Ones: minus 11
Blustery Day: minus 4
Welcoming Unit: minus 7
Beauty School: minus 6
Leap Hole: minus 2
Volcanic Percolator Day Spa: plus 3 (finally!)
Whistler: minus 1
Beauty And The Electric Tentacle: minus 29! (I had to watch it twice to believe it)
The Red Carpet: minus 11
Genetic Sorting Machine: let's just say it's faster despite the slight hiccup or bad luck at the end

Chapter 3

Burning Man: minus 2
Second Hand Smoke: minus 1 (different strategy, but difficult to tell what's actually faster)
Misty's Long Bony Road: minus 6
Super Fuse Challenge Time: minus 3
The Third Wheel: plus 4
Upper Shaft: minus 1
Water Lock: minus 25
You Have To Explode The Head: roundabout 1 full minute lost here... :/ plus 60 (are you trying to hit the few sleeping balls up top? Does panning the camera up actually help you in any way?)
Incineration Destination: plus 1
Product Launcher: again, clearly faster

Chapter 4

Hello, World: plus 1
Bulletin Board System: minus 10
Grape Vine Virus: plus 33 (yeah, this one could have used some practice, you seem to get impatient with your shots since a lot of the time they don't seem even close; what's your average time here?)
Graphic Processing Unit: minus 12 (here, your spammy strategy works well)
Road Blocks: minus 6
Graceful Failure: plus 16
Alice And Bob And Third Party: plus 1 (you said this went well but you're actually slower than the SDA record here)
The Server Farm: minus 8
MOM's Computer: not sure but faster
Deliverance: not sure
In total: 11:57

Epilogue:
Infesty The Worm: minus 15
Horizontal Transportation Innovation Committee: minus 34
Weather Vane: minus 21 (I just noticed something: at the start of the old run, the runner initially has to wait a while before being able to place the black goo balls, but you seem to be able to do it as fast as you can click. Are you using some trick to do it instantly?)
Observatory Observation Station: faster

I'm not currently sure which method was used to time the last SDA record but this is obviously a lot faster than that. The runner was running at a much faster pace after the first chapter especially, and lost a very significant amount of time in chapter 3. Looked like especially the Grape Vine Virus level could have used more practice... or was this just a particularly bad ballistics calculation day for you? You gain a lot of time by using smarter strategies that often require good execution as well. What about the level Graceful Failure? Is the SDA strategy very inconsistent then? Much faster.

Just for reference, some data from the [url=https://www.speedrun.com/wog]Speedrun.com page[/url].

"The cutscene skip glitch is banned because it requires using another file to set up, as well as being extremely tedious to set up. Skipping cutscenes by closing the game is also banned."

The first rule is already on the SDA game page so no reason to talk about it here. The second rule isn't but is it also because it adds a lot to the real time for this run? And messes up recordings?

Looks like this runner has the records in all the categories of the game, at least as far as Speedrun.com is concerned. There doesn't seem to be as much competition as you'd expect for such a well-known indie hit, and those records are sitting very comfortably at the top since last year. Maybe the skillset is very specific? Actually he seems to be comparing against some other run (old WR) that's IGT 10 seconds slower than this so scratch that bit about no competition. The last SDA record holder was a guy whom I knew as a Max Payne speedrun primarily so I'm surprised he ran this game as well! But that's an aside here.

A/V: This is at 30 FPS but the game is at 60 based on [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKyUe0D0ONM]this video[/url] (using frame advance keys . and , on the 60-frames setting shows no duplicate frames mostly). The old run was also at 30. The live splits can be cropped and there's nothing on top of the game window. The sounds are a little low but present.

20:42 - The game screen is frozen here for some reason. It's in the middle of a cutscene.
29:30 - The same. Also during a cutscene.
29:46 to 30:08 - A very long freeze here and another later in the same cutscene. Wait, you didn't ALT-TAB out of the game during these freezes did you? Cause this is what happens in some cases if you do.
46:49 - Here the runner unmutes his mic. It's after timing is up so it's not something that causes an automatic reject but it does make it a little more difficult to justify leaving the end cutscene in. I don't currently know what the timing method was last time.

This run uses a wider aspect ratio that seems to sometimes benefit the runner a moderate amount in moving the goo balls around.

I did a good old-fashioned side-by-side comparison of the old SDA record and this run for fun:

Chapter 1

Going Up - tie at 4
Small Divide - minus 3 (old run has a mistake here already)
Hang Low - minus 2
Flying Machine - minus 1
Tumbler: minus 1
Fisty's Bog: minus 5
Ivy Towers: minus 11 (Here your run notes say the time is 0:06 when the game shows 0:05.)
Impale Sticky: minus 8
Chain: minus 15
Tower Of Goo: minus 9
Ode To The Bridge Builder: minus 12
Regurgitation Pumping Station: minus not sure what, but this sure looks pretty epic!

Chapter 2

Drool: minus 6
Fly Away Little Ones: minus 11
Blustery Day: minus 4
Welcoming Unit: minus 7
Beauty School: minus 6
Leap Hole: minus 2
Volcanic Percolator Day Spa: plus 3 (finally!)
Whistler: minus 1
Beauty And The Electric Tentacle: minus 29! (I had to watch it twice to believe it)
The Red Carpet: minus 11
Genetic Sorting Machine: let's just say it's faster despite the slight hiccup or bad luck at the end

Chapter 3

Burning Man: minus 2
Second Hand Smoke: minus 1 (different strategy, but difficult to tell what's actually faster)
Misty's Long Bony Road: minus 6
Super Fuse Challenge Time: minus 3
The Third Wheel: plus 4
Upper Shaft: minus 1
Water Lock: minus 25
You Have To Explode The Head:  roundabout 1 full minute lost here... :/ plus 60 (are you trying to hit the few sleeping balls up top? Does panning the camera up actually help you in any way?)
Incineration Destination: plus 1
Product Launcher: again, clearly faster

Chapter 4

Hello, World: plus 1
Bulletin Board System: minus 10
Grape Vine Virus: plus 33 (yeah, this one could have used some practice, you seem to get impatient with your shots since a lot of the time they don't seem even close; what's your average time here?)
Graphic Processing Unit: minus 12 (here, your spammy strategy works well)
Road Blocks: minus 6
Graceful Failure: plus 16
Alice And Bob And Third Party: plus 1 (you said this went well but you're actually slower than the SDA record here)
The Server Farm: minus 8
MOM's Computer: not sure but faster
Deliverance: not sure
In total: 11:57

Epilogue:
Infesty The Worm: minus 15
Horizontal Transportation Innovation Committee: minus 34
Weather Vane: minus 21 (I just noticed something: at the start of the old run, the runner initially has to wait a while before being able to place the black goo balls, but you seem to be able to do it as fast as you can click. Are you using some trick to do it instantly?)
Observatory Observation Station: faster

I'm not currently sure which method was used to time the last SDA record but this is obviously a lot faster than that. The runner was running at a much faster pace after the first chapter especially, and lost a very significant amount of time in chapter 3. Looked like especially the Grape Vine Virus level could have used more practice... or was this just a particularly bad ballistics calculation day for you? You gain a lot of time by using smarter strategies that often require good execution as well. What about the level Graceful Failure? Is the SDA strategy very inconsistent then? Much faster.

Worn_Traveler

Edit history:

Worn_Traveler: 2022-02-08 07:39:17 am

2022-02-08 07:38:43 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

Lotblind did the legwork on timing comparisons, which made watching this easier. Aside from those few levels where things don't go well, this run is faster.

I want to say accept but if the 30 fps vs 60 fps is a problem, then no (and maybe just remove the current run if it's breaking the rules too ).

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2022-02-26 12:41:02 pm

LotBlind: 2022-02-26 12:40:41 pm

2022-02-26 12:39:49 pm

So while the runner's mouse skills are sufficiently good and the run is generally faster and on a high level of execution, there were a few things I don't like about it. The decision will ultimately be made by the admin in charge of verifications but here are the things I hold against it, for the record:

A/V shows a lack of care. While the runner has avoided introducing superfluous elements onto the timed portions of the run, there are still those freezes during the cutscenes and some microphone usage (but only the first one matters because there's no reason that part with the talking can't be cut). I don't want to start any trends of being lackadaisical about in-game cutscenes and other non-gameplay parts of the game even if they're not part of timing. You're still speedrunning a complete game and answering the question "what would it look like if done as fast as possible". Those cutscenes are part of it whether they can or can't be skipped. You can argue they're not important but since they'll end up being in the video, it's part of the video's A/V quality in my opinion, and disrespectful not to show in its entirety. I know some people enjoy the fact speedruns act as a kind of super-condensed longplay of the game, seeing as I'm one of those people.

The 30 FPS thing was discussed and is not going to be held against this run, however. Also, the old run was also 30 FPS.

Gameplay: My bone with this run is it feels it doesn't pass the "not easy to improve on" test that we've been using in verification. If you don't have a fast mouse hand, you might think this is somehow completely exceptional but I daresay it's not. The feeling I was left with watching the run was it kept gaining time on the old run even when the strategy was exactly the same. Therefore those kinds of improvements can be achieved (by the runner) more or less systematically without increasing the risk factor much or at all. Secondly, the game is probably more forgiving than it looks when you factor in the rewind option which was barely touched here (suggesting the risk levels weren't INCREDIBLY high). So my contention is that by grinding out a much faster You Have to Explode the Head and a clean Grape Vine Virus (which looked like impatience / a lack of practice) and potentially implementing the much faster Graceful Failure strategy that was used already in the SDA record, you gain so much time from just those that you have a large margin to work with that allows for many smaller mistakes elsewhere, or a bit more safety here and there, for an ultimately faster time. And it's not like this run was absolutely perfect elsewhere either.

That's a strong intuition after watching so many SDA submissions over the years. Runners always underestimate how far they can take it with practice. And it has historically been the runner's abilities that we use as a measuring stick more so than Average Joe's because it's understood that some types of games require a high level of skill in something like mouse usage or typing speed.

So while the runner's mouse skills are sufficiently good and the run is generally faster and on a high level of execution, there were a few things I don't like about it. The decision will ultimately be made by the admin in charge of verifications but here are the things I hold against it, for the record:

A/V shows a lack of care. While the runner has avoided introducing superfluous elements onto the timed portions of the run, there are still those freezes during the cutscenes and some microphone usage (but only the first one matters because there's no reason that part with the talking can't be cut). I don't want to start any trends of being lackadaisical about in-game cutscenes and other non-gameplay parts of the game even if they're not part of timing. You're still speedrunning a complete game and answering the question "what would it look like if done as fast as possible". Those cutscenes are part of it whether they can or can't be skipped. You can argue they're not important but since they'll end up being in the video, it's part of the video's A/V quality in my opinion, and disrespectful not to show in its entirety. I know some people enjoy the fact speedruns act as a kind of super-condensed longplay of the game, seeing as I'm one of those people.

The 30 FPS thing was discussed and is not going to be held against this run, however. Also, the old run was also 30 FPS.

Gameplay: My bone with this run is it feels it doesn't pass the "not easy to improve on" test that we've been using in verification. If you don't have a fast mouse hand, you might think this is somehow completely exceptional but I daresay it's not. The feeling I was left with watching the run was it kept gaining time on the old run even when the strategy was exactly the same. Therefore those kinds of improvements can be achieved (by the runner) more or less systematically without increasing the risk factor much or at all. Secondly, the game is probably more forgiving than it looks when you factor in the rewind option which was barely touched here (suggesting the risk levels weren't INCREDIBLY high). So my contention is that by grinding out a much faster You Have to Explode the Head and a clean Grape Vine Virus (which looked like impatience / a lack of practice) and potentially implementing the much faster Graceful Failure strategy that was used already in the SDA record, you gain so much time from just those that you have a large margin to work with that allows for many smaller mistakes elsewhere, or a bit more safety here and there, for an ultimately faster time. And it's not like this run was absolutely perfect elsewhere either.

That's a strong intuition after watching so many SDA submissions over the years. Runners always underestimate how far they can take it with practice. And it has historically been the runner's abilities that we use as a measuring stick more so than Average Joe's because it's understood that some types of games require a high level of skill in something like mouse usage or typing speed.

SDAVerification

2022-03-01 12:57:17 pm

Decision posted.