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ZenicReverie: 2011-05-28 01:46:22 am
Waiting hurts my soul...
I recently had the crazy idea of playing every RPG released in the US on console (plus a smattering of imports). Crazy because continuous releases of RPGs means I have an ever growing backlog that I'll probably never catch up on, and the very definition of a console RPG is debatable. So, that's what I'd like help doing here. I've tried to come up with a definition on my own using the one used for pen & paper RPGs, and have come to the conclusion that there is no way to compare them, as almost any game (pure puzzle/rhythm games are the only ones I could think to exclude) could be translated back to a pen & paper RPG or even live action role-playing (LARP). I even thought about the concept of leveling or stat increases, as you may play through an entire gaming session, completing a large quest the size of most video games without distributing experience and leveling up. So, I'd like to discuss what makes a video game an RPG and come up with a list of games.

Points that determine if a game is included or excluded from the list:

1) The player controls a character (or characters) that are unique. (This excludes army/unit based games like command & conquer.)
2) The character's skills increase based on repeated actions rather than collecting items. (This excludes The Legend of Zelda type games, and most collectible card games.)

Some questions I'm left with:

a) If both gaining items and repeated actions increase stats/skills (i.e. experience points and levels to raise HP, MP, damage, etc, and items to increase or unlock skills) then it's usually considered an action RPG. Should I include those in this list?
b) If you're controlling a character that commands a nameless army, but gains abilities and increased stats through battles, does this count as an RPG?
c) Following that, if your commanding character recruits nameless units that increase in skills and level up, would that be considered an RPG even though he or she never improved?
d) Does an RPG need to rely on dialogue or a story? (Is a random rogue-like or dungeon crawl game an RPG?)

This is my last thought on making a list; should I just forget the term RPG and play whatever the heck I want instead? At this point it seems hopeless to find a solid definition, and I'm close to scrapping the whole idea before I get too far into it.

Edit: Changed the topic to be more inline with what I'd like to discuss since people can't seem to read the entire post.
Thread title:  
Cigar Man
What is an RPG?  A miserable little pile of experience points.
SDA Apprentice -- (3-1)
http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html

Take your pick...
Everybody's favorite monster
Rocket Propelled Grenade lolololol
Weegee Time
There are games that have "RPG Elements."  These aren't RPGs in the fullest sense of the word, but they adopt some aspects of them to enhance their gameplay.  I think this is what B and C fall under for your questions.  In that case, it would really be up to you, because RPG isn't their main genre.

The answer to A is yes.  And if you've played pretty much any NES RPG, the answer to D is a definite NO.
berserker status
Those definitions sound pretty solid to me. 

a) big yes
b)/c) i dunno, i'd need some examples to give an opinion
d) not really

RPG cliches are good indicators as well, as mentioned above.
Waiting hurts my soul...
examples of (b) Dragon Force, Warcraft III somewhat, possibly romance of the three kingdoms.
examples of (c) Pokemon, Monster Rancher, other games where you capture monsters and they fight for you, as long as they're replaceable.
Edit history:
Idkbutlike2: 2011-05-28 03:14:26 pm
Pokemon games are definitely RPGs. There are stats, character parties, a distinct battle system, a central plot (despite how paper-thin and pointless it is), etc.
RPGs, as they are colloquially referred, do not often involve role playing, and are mostly adventure games with spreadsheet elements.  The oxymoronic term 'RPG elements' refers to the manual nature of handling statistics during Dungeons and Dragons, and not the actual role-playing.  Some casualized versions of DnD involve hardly any 'RPG elements' but instead just role playing.

Any game that actually gets you into the situation of the character as they might think on it succeeds as roleplay.  Any game that has you worry more about your character's stats than your character's character has merely weighed down an adventure game with spreadsheet tedium.

If you wanted to play every RPG, that would certainly be a subjective goal.  Not everyone agrees which games suck you in or not.
Balls jerky
Quote:
should I just forget the term RPG and play whatever the heck I want instead?


Yes.
Quote from ZenicReverie:
I recently had the crazy idea of playing every RPG released in the US on console (plus a smattering of imports).


That's not happening. Just play the best ones.

As for definitions, I'd just take a look at Gamefaqs. They break it down into different categories.
welcome to the machine
An rpg is a game that has a sufficient quantity of the characteristics associated with the term 'rpg' to be classifiable with other games with those characteristics.

What a sufficient quantity is, what those characteristics are, and what the other games associated as rpgs are is entirely up to the beholder.  Basically, the term is a convenient shorthand people use to group sets of conventions together.  Like any other genre.  Pick whatever conventions you want.
Balls jerky
Quote from scaryice:
Quote from ZenicReverie:
I recently had the crazy idea of playing every RPG released in the US on console (plus a smattering of imports).


That's not happening. Just play the best ones.

This too. Otherwise, enjoy Romancing Saga.
Waiting hurts my soul...
Quote from Idkbutlike2:
Pokemon games are definitely RPGs. There are stats, character parties, a distinct battle system, a central plot (despite how paper-thin and pointless it is), etc.

Does that make Monster Rancher or Dragon Seeds an RPG? I wouldn't call them that, but the only difference between these and Pokemon is that you walk around to find battles instead of just going to the arena. The character you control doesn't ever get any better at anything, you just control a roster of replaceable pets. I suppose there are similarities to Wizardry and Bard's Tale there, so maybe it is an RPG...

Quote from dballin:
Quote from scaryice:
Quote from ZenicReverie:
I recently had the crazy idea of playing every RPG released in the US on console (plus a smattering of imports).


That's not happening. Just play the best ones.

This too. Otherwise, enjoy Romancing Saga.

I was planning on doing that already. Wink

Quote from VorpalEdge:
An rpg is a game that has a sufficient quantity of the characteristics associated with the term 'rpg' to be classifiable with other games with those characteristics.

What a sufficient quantity is, what those characteristics are, and what the other games associated as rpgs are is entirely up to the beholder.  Basically, the term is a convenient shorthand people use to group sets of conventions together.  Like any other genre.  Pick whatever conventions you want.

Yeah, I think that's just what I'll do.
Quote from VorpalEdge:
An rpg is a game that has a sufficient quantity of the characteristics associated with the term 'rpg' to be classifiable with other games with those characteristics.

What a sufficient quantity is, what those characteristics are, and what the other games associated as rpgs are is entirely up to the beholder.  Basically, the term is a convenient shorthand people use to group sets of conventions together.  Like any other genre.  Pick whatever conventions you want.


that's not an answer!
cmon you can do better than that
Balls jerky
Romancing Saga is the only game I've ever sold before beating it. Jus sayin
Edit history:
scaryice: 2011-05-29 03:09:42 am
This topic made me want to make a list of all the RPGs I've beaten. Most of these were played on the actual console. For a select few, I sped up the frame rate for much of it. But I didn't use save states to cheat.

Going by Gamefaqs' category listings:

Traditional

Breath of Fire
Chrono Cross
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest
Dragon Quest 2
Dragon Quest 3
Dragon Quest 4
Dragon Quest 5
Dragon Quest 6
Dragon Quest 8
Earthbound
Final Fantasy
Final Fantasy 2
Final Fantasy 3
Final Fantasy 4
Final Fantasy 5
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy 7
Final Fantasy 8
Final Fantasy 9
Final Fantasy 10
Final Fantasy 12
Final Fantasy 13
Final Fantasy Legend 2
Lufia
Lufia 2
Lunar
Lunar 2
Mother
Suikoden
Suikoden 2
Super Mario RPG
Vay
Xenogears
Xenosaga

Action

Crystalis
Deadly Towers
Demon's Souls
Getsu Fuuma Den
Illusion of Gaia
King Kong 2
Kingdom Hearts
Kingdom Hearts 2
Popful Mail
Secret of Evermore
Secret of Mana
Seiken Densetsu 3
Terranigma
Zelda 2
Zelda 3
Zelda: Link's Awakening

(for some reason, Ocarina is called "action-adventure" instead)

Strategy

Disgaea
Final Fantasy Tactics
Shining Force
Shining Force 2
Vandal Hearts

First Person

Fallout 3

I think that's all of them. That doesn't include the ones that I played most of the way through but didn't beat, like 7th Saga, FF:Mystic Quest, Saga Frontier 1 & 2, and Wild Arms.

Definitely some less than stellar titles there, so I couldn't imagine trying to play everything. Unless you want to play 100 versions of Wizardry.
Edit history:
feasel: 2011-05-29 07:35:03 am
difficult and stupidly random
I <3 scaryice for putting Deadly Towers on the list.

Zenic: i like what you're doing, but you're going to have to be a little flexible with your criteria.  Some examples:

* Destiny Of An Emperor falls squarely in the RPG category, yet i think it fails your "no army" criterion.  Your characters are generals and their HP is basically the number of soldiers in each general's army, though you don't control individual soldiers.  There's probably other RPGs with a similar situation.  You might do best just to say "no C&C-like games".

*  Any game with an experience/level-up system is going to sound like an RPG according to your criteria.  E.g. Rygar and Zelda2 -- These games have basic stats that increase as you kill more enemies, and the stats do not increase due to finding items.  Yet you probably wouldn't call them RPGs.  And more recent games tend to mix-and-match elements from lots of different classic genera, so you'll find XP systems in tons of non-RPGs.

* Not sure about this "repeated actions rather than collecting items" thing.  By "repeated actions" i assume you mean killing enemies and gaining XP.  But you'll probably find true RPGs that allow you to increase your stats both by gaining XP and by collecting items.  If you're just trying to exclude zelda-like games it may be easier just to say "no zelda-like games", rather than trying to objectively pinpoint what properties make something zelda-like.

In short, i don't think you'll find any easy criteria to identify RPGs.  You can probably identify a dozen or so RPG-like properties.  But you'll find RPGs that don't have some of these properties and non-RPGs that do.  Maybe you need some kind of test like "if the game has 5 or more of the following properties, consider it an RPG".  But even then I think you'll have to make some judgement calls.
Edit history:
agedude: 2011-06-04 11:04:23 am
Bane of the Sith
here's a unique one here....

Monster Hunter- the RPG with no experience points

The ONLY way to improve is by collecting more powerful weapons and armor, you yourself have no base stats (except for HP) and are useless without them.

The equipment is earned through repetitive actions... earning resources, money, and forging items.


based on THIS, is MH an RPG?
welcome to the machine
it's a role-playing grind
Edit history:
ZenicReverie: 2011-06-21 10:27:30 am
Waiting hurts my soul...
Quote from agedude:
here's a unique one here....

Monster Hunter- the RPG with no experience points

The ONLY way to improve is by collecting more powerful weapons and armor, you yourself have no base stats (except for HP) and are useless without them.

The equipment is earned through repetitive actions... earning resources, money, and forging items.


based on THIS, is MH an RPG?

No, not an RPG.

Just because it has a fantasy setting doesn't make it an RPG. It needs to have character growth, and just collecting items that are better doesn't count. The closest game I can think to compare this to is Armored Core, which isn't an RPG either.

Edit: Since most places call Monster Hunter an RPG, I'll be playing through it, but if Armored Core isn't considered one, I'm not sure why Monster Hunter would.
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_role-playing_games/
Waiting hurts my soul...

I know the original intent of the term, but sadly it's not what the majority of people will think of when you say CRPG and has become a misnomer. So, I'm trying to find out what people consider console RPGs so that I can play through them to determine on my own what works and what doesn't. It'd be rather boring I think to play through Deus Ex and then be done with it. The purpose of this thread wasn't to argue over the semantics of the term, only to gather opinions on what goes into a game that makes it an RPG.
You agree that the RPG term as it is commonly used is arbitrary - but still want to play every game in a category whose members are arbitrarily included.  I think this is silly.

On a side note - does anyone else notice that games that focus on their storytelling, but for whatever reason are not called RPGs, are never praised or criticized for their story?  Instead I see lots of talk about the parts of the game that only nominal work is required in; the usual set of nitpicks.  On the other hand, a Jrpg/Wprg will usually only garnish discussion about its story, and may not get those same nitpicks.
Waiting hurts my soul...
Quote from grndino:
You agree that the RPG term as it is commonly used is arbitrary - but still want to play every game in a category whose members are arbitrarily included.  I think this is silly.

I agree the term as it's applied now can be arbitrary, especially when people say a game has RPG elements since all games have RPG elements. I'm most interested in how a distinction is made in the first place. Like the example above: Monster Hunter Tri vs. Armored Core (maybe there's a better example out there). Is it just the fantasy setting, or maybe how combat is handled? Lifeline is another game that has many things in common with other RPGs, but isn't labeled as one. Sentient is labeled an adventure game, but has more in common with pen & paper RPGs than Final Fantasy; just because you can't see the stats doesn't mean they aren't there. Maybe it's pointless to try to figure out a common element games in the computer/console RPG genre have, but I'd be playing most of these games anyway so I might as well try to get something worthwhile out of it.

If I had more time, I'd probably be less arbitrary and play all console games, but that's definitely something that will never be achieved in my lifetime.

Quote from grndino:
On a side note - does anyone else notice that games that focus on their storytelling, but for whatever reason are not called RPGs, are never praised or criticized for their story?  Instead I see lots of talk about the parts of the game that only nominal work is required in; the usual set of nitpicks.  On the other hand, a Jrpg/Wprg will usually only garnish discussion about its story, and may not get those same nitpicks.

Do you have any examples? That statement is too generalized to agree with outright. I'm guessing you're mainly talking about adventure and exploration games, in which case I have trouble agreeing with 'never', so I'd really like examples of the games you're talking about.