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My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/SuperMetroid.html

Christopher Hill's PAL version 100% run

Verifier Responses

Quote:
Howdy Mike,
  One of the greatest games EVAR, verified.

Audio/Visual is fine.
Only cheating is what the runner does to the game.

Segment 1 - Yeah

Segment 2 - Morph ball bomb Chozo skip is hot, hot, hot.  We're just starting and already the execution and movement is more impressive than anything I've seen in a while.  Early super missiles and power bombs.  Standard Kraid rape.  Route is impressive as well.

Segment 3 - Runner wrecks the wrecked ship and everyone in it.  That was damn amazing.

Segment 4 - Shine ability should be mentioned now.  The runner is in a class of his own.  Or at least only a couple of other people.  You get the idea.  Really just major item collecting for the most part.  And into Maridia, this can be a very difficult area, the runner shows no fear jumping rigt in.

Segment 5 - The runner continues to be pro maneuvering around Maridia.  The back door entrance to the spring ball was well done.  The rest of the area is raped and pillaged for it's goods.  The runner's control of Samus and her boosting continues to boggle the mind.  On to Norfair....

Segment 6 - The runner burns through Norfair.  Pun intended.  And obliterates Ridley.  He then goes on to finish collecting the rest of the items.  This not only completes the 100% but solidifies the route as optimal and really sets up the final part of the run through Tourian.  Said run through is great.  Mother Brain fight is also well done.  Much less seizure causing than the murder beam.  And the escape.

Overall is fantastic.  Looking through the videos, my only thought was whether or not a couple of extra saves could get it down to that next minute.  But given the small margin of error shown, I can't say 100% that a lower time could really be achieved without a significant route change.  I definitely would have gone into a bit more detail about the run itself, but I don't want to spoil too much.  Besides, the run is so good, I didn't want to stop watching to type.  This is the kind of run that will get me fired, because I'll want to watch it at work... repeatedly.

I applaud the runner, Samus is sexy as ever and the runner is the embodiment of Justin Bailey.

ACCEPT.


Quote:
Video and Audio are fine, no visible signs of cheating.


Segment 1 - Nothing much to note, standard.

Segment 2 - Despite the runner saying the segments pick up in standard after this one I think this is pretty damn good; there are hardly any mistakes over the 20 mintues or so of gameplay.

Segment 3 - I would have liked to see the shinespark from the lake all the way to wrecked ship entrance but I understand the timing is very tight for it. It would also be well into the segment. Overall it's very clean and good manipulation of phantoon to get a 2 rounder.

Segment 4 - Attic room was insane though I was wondering if it's possible to shinespark a little higher so you go into the door. Though I note that it would be cutting it awefully close to the glass on the roof. Again shinesparking to torizo I wonder if you can do it higher to save landing and jumping back up, though I'm talking fractions of a second here.

Segment 5 - Awesome boss fights, only noticeable mistake was hitting stalactite while space jumping, costing a few seconds.

Segment 6 - That the runner considered redoing this is just ridiculous. There's a few mistakes scattered around but overall it's exceptional like the rest of the run. The most noticeable mistake in the run is probably messing up the upper right room from Samus's ship, again only a few seconds. There's a couple of mistakes in Tourian, missing a few supers (very brave play with such low supply though!) and it took a few seconds to glitch through the barriers in Mother Brain's old room. Basically it just looked like an understandable display of nerves right near the end of a 30 minute or so segment.

Overall the run is insane. It should be to a high standard given it's segmented, but the segments are very long and to keep up this level of gameplay is really amazing. The amount of tight jumps, wrap arounds, mock balls, short charges for shinesparks and about a million other little tricks that probably only the runner knows about make this run almost hard to believe. Everyone was taken aback by Hotarubi's runs but this is the next step up and if the impending SS runs are anything like this SM Speedrun fans will be further spoilt. Frankly if I hadn't been following the runners progress and seen the massive collaborative effort for all his runs so far, I'd ask for camera proof of this! Oh yeah and unless there is a really big discovery this run simply can't be beaten from the in-game timer.

Verdict - ACCEPT


Quote:
Sorry this took so long but, I've been both very busy and lazy lately. No visible signs of cheating for both video and audio whatsoever.

Segment 1 - Nothing to really comment on here, good job!!!

Segment 2 - In the beginning you went with the safer strategies before the Bomb Torizo, can't say I blame him. You definitely could have Mockballed later where the bats drop before the Bomb Torizo. Beautiful Bomb Torizo Skip and strategy to collect missiles afterwards, well done. You should have jumped of the elevator, it saves 20 frames even if you jump a little high. Nice Reverse Gate Mockball into the Block Break Missile grab, but I don't agree with the Bounceball through the door. Its definitely slower then landing and jumping off the platform. Some slight slip ups in Red Brinstar, but nothing major though. Great job from entering Kraid's area all the way to the Upper Norfair exit. Very few mistakes, well done!!! I don't agree with the Energy Refill strategy though. If your worried about energy I believe the pod is faster, don't forget you will have a Full Reserve Tank for the Wrecked Ship with the pod. Other then those very minor things, Great Segment!!!

Segment 3 - Overall great segment not too many flaws whatsoever, well done!!!

Segment 4 - Nearly flawless Wrecked Ship clean up. Only things wrong there were a few mental mistakes like not turning into an item and not using your Power Bombs after the Chozo Statute on the way back. Brinstar was done beautifully only a few mistakes like the missed Mockball after the etecoons and a few missed item turns it was nearly flawless. Everything was very well executed up to this point. Again Meridia nearly flawless only one mess up in the sand area when you jumped and balled up accidentally. This segment was the highlight of the run so far. I only pointed out the little mistakes because there just wasn't that many of them to begin with. The practice really payed off and it really shows in this segment, great job!!!

Segment 5 - Great Boss fights and your overall execution was nearly flawless. The only parts you really messed up on was when you hit your head on the stalactite heading to Lower Norfair and you could have turned into a few Items. Again these are very minor because the mistakes are so few I just thought I'd point out the flaws to show your human error. That is how a segment should look, well done!!!

Segment 6 - The final stretch and probably the longest segment of all. Very few mistakes in Lower Norfair. All was made up for because of that great Ridley fight!!! What a docile creature. LOL. Anyway moving on the clean up was great very few mistakes and very well executed throughout. Just to note some little mental errors like switching off your Power Bombs occurred but, that's about it. The second Metroid Room was pretty funny the only thing not finny about it is you wasted a Super Missile and it made you have to use regular Missiles to shoot open some doors. It didn't really slow you down much anyway. Nice Metriod Skip though. The Metroid is so docile on PAL compared to NTSC. Also nice use of the Stand Up Glitch not only is it faster then the Murder Beam its much cleaner looking as well. Overall this run was simply amazing, Great Job!!!

Verification - ACCEPTED


Decision: Accept

Reason: Super Metroid has come a long way since Red Scarlet's 0:55 100% run.
Thread title:  
Willing to teach you the impossible
Sweet. Now the pain and agony of waiting for it to be published...
that Metroidvania guy
Awesome. Congrats on another great SM run, Chris!
sinister1
so pro u don't even know
Quote from Heidrage:
Sweet. Now the pain and agony of waiting for it to be published...

Pretty sure it is on his youtube channel.
Do you happen to have a link to the channel? Also what was the final run time? I don't see it anywhere in the post.
Sandbagging
http://www.youtube.com/user/Giganotabehemoth87
Willing to teach you the impossible
Thanks <3
Quote from YoukaiDragoon:
Do you happen to have a link to the channel? Also what was the final run time? I don't see it anywhere in the post.

The final time was 48min, as you probably know now. It&amp;#39;s a high 48 min for sure, probably between 48:55 and 48:59:49.

Quote from Verifier 1:
Looking through the videos, my only thought was whether or not a couple of extra saves could get it down to that next minute.  But given the small margin of error shown, I can&amp;#39;t say 100% that a lower time could really be achieved without a significant route change.

After some tests we've found that even if he was perfect in all segments with no mistakes,  47 was not possible. You see, each save costs around 8/9 seconds, there was 5 saves: Ceres, Red Brinstar, Wrecked Ship, Pre-Botwoon and Lower Norfair Elevator. The only save that doesn't cost any time is Ceres, so the other 4 saves took away around 32/6 seconds. A SS run using the same strategies and tricks with no mistakes would probably hit around 47:40/50, so if you add the costs of saving and loading the game, his time would still be around 48min in-game time. I don't know if a route change could save enough time to get a 47min too. The Earlier Power Bombs, iirc, saves only 4/5 seconds in Shortcuts and avoiding the backtrack to get the missiles in Kraid's area, and that only if the runner manages to be perfect going to pick up the Power Bombs and coming back, also using the hero shot to climb the Brinstar Shaft. Unfortunatelly Chris messed a little when he was coming back, on Brinstar Shaft, but it still saved some seconds and it was much better to watch than the other route.
wowee !, finally. This is great news.

Yeah the continuous shinespark from the lake to Wrecked ship entrance is pointless to attempt on PAL. The timing is more than just tight and it doesn't save enough time (around 3 seconds) to warrant attempting it.

Also I see a mention about would a shinespark in the attic room be quicker ?. I'm not sure exactly in the attic where he means but if he means the last part coming back from the robot room. It is possible to reach the top ledge by the door with a little ledge grab just as you fall but the shinespark positioning is unfortunately far too precise to get right every time. The shinespark to the Gravity Torizo to land on his hand: That was actually a mistake, I jumped too soon. Happens sometimes Grin

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart
this is a replacement to one of the oldest runs on the site right?

good job.
Not a walrus
Strictly speaking no since this one is PAL and the older one is NTSC, but PAL is slower so it'll end up replacing it since this one is still faster. Nice job.
Red Scarlets run will remain on the site until it's beaten by another NTSC run (which is in the works btw). My run is just the record for PAL. Although for the time being it is the record nonetheless.
we have lift off
Quote from giganotabehemoth87:
Red Scarlets run will remain on the site until it's beaten by another NTSC run (which is in the works btw). My run is just the record for PAL. Although for the time being it is the record nonetheless.


I'd be very surprised if a run that's 7 minutes faster (and a lot more if you account for the 5/6ths speed) would not obsolete the NTSC run. I understand there are things like the torizo skip that you can't do on NTSC, but there's no way PAL can be considered easier or faster.
PAL isn't strictly 5/6th speed though, Samus moves just as fast from a real time perspective but the rest of the game is slower.

It still works out to be slightly slower in the end, but not by the 'normal' pal/nstc factor.
we have lift off
Quote from UA:
PAL isn't strictly 5/6th speed though, Samus moves just as fast from a real time perspective but the rest of the game is slower.

It still works out to be slightly slower in the end, but not by the 'normal' pal/nstc factor.


Agreed, but my point is it's several minutes slower for a run of this length; it's a clear obsolete surely...
.
Torizo skip is a lot harder on NTSC, to the point where it's pretty much undoable non-TAS. It's a fairly nontrivial version difference imo.
Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2011-05-21 07:56:55 am
Master-88
Yeah Torizo skip is impossible on NTSC without toolassist.

Also its super hard on PAL version. Requires just totally perfect timings.

Torizo skip save around 20-30 seconds time. NTSC version are faster one elsewhere. I think 0:44 on NTSC version equal 0:48 PAL time. Yeah this behemoh run was just superb. Also PAL version is elsewhere a lot harder to speedrun. Door transitions requires better timings and etc....
I'd say a 0:45 is a more accurate equivalent time to get for NTSC. Secondly I'd also say that while PAL might be harder in a few areas, it also has some easier stuff compared to NTSC. When I play both versions I feel slight differences in difficulty everywhere.

So while both versions are essentially the same game. There's enough differences in them that have made me far more accustomed to PAL, because I've played it a lot more. So when I go and play NTSC I find myself making silly mistakes or forgetting the timing of bosses arrival etc. I wouldn't say one version is better than the other either.

I don't think my time should obsolete Red scarlet time for these reasons, But I know exactly what ridd3R is saying. Either way It'll be obsoleted by another NTSC run.
Edit history:
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-22 02:28:19 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-22 02:27:47 pm
My name is 4N6/Forensics.
Congratulations Behemoth!!! As some of you may know I'm taking a long and much needed break from this game, but I plan to return soon I'm starting to get the itch to play again. Also don't you worry Red Scarlet's run will get removed from that page soon enough, count on it!!!
Edit history:
Reeve: 2011-05-23 06:24:26 pm
In my opinion, as stated above by some users, the game has significantly differences that should garantee, as in the any% case, a place for his own. In that case, a game can't be obsoleted by a different one. It wouldn't be nice to see a 45/6min NTSC run obsoleting Behemoth's 48min PAL run, but if his run obsolets Red Scarlet's run, so it would be fair for his run to be obsoleted by a faster one.

I'm giving the NTSC version a shot segmented, but i'm doing on emulator. Though, thanks to a friend, i have the Snes, for now it would be really annoying for some reasons to attempt on Console. I'll see how good my run can be and maybe in a near future i record a console run. For now i just did Ceres, but these last days i've been trying to practice as much as i can. Got some good stuff, but not as fast as i'd like to.
SEGA Junkie
I don't understand why this is so hard.

The PAL version of this game is inherently slower to run. Not by the usual 5/6 ratio, but still inherently slower.

This run beats a run on the inherently faster version of the game. It obsoletes this run. End of story.

A future NTSC run would not obsolete this run simply because it had a faster final time. It might obsolete it if it is adjudged to be played significantly better (which would probably need a time of like :42 or :43 based on what I've read in this topic), although based on what I have heard about this run that seems extremely unlikely.
Edit history:
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-24 05:16:22 am
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-24 05:15:24 am
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-24 05:13:59 am
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:50:02 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:38:20 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:15:51 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:15:33 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:14:37 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:12:41 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:11:41 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:07:59 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:06:18 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:04:26 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:03:20 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:03:02 pm
lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-05-23 07:01:30 pm
My name is 4N6/Forensics.
Well 44-45 would be my targeted time for NTSC. I honestly wouldn't submit anything less then my standards. Just so you know 42 isn't even possible in a TAS for NTSC with the same strategies and even some better ones. Behemoth and I even tested this a while ago and a 43 is barely possible in a Single Segment TAS with just save states.

PAL is slower that's an actual fact. So it should replace it, but like I said it will be replaced soon enough anyway once I start running the game again!!! Though I would have to agree Red Scarlet's run should be replaced because of Behemoth's run. Red Scarlet's run is old and just doesn't meet SDA standards anymore. I don't see why they wouldn't take it down.
Edit history:
Reeve: 2011-05-23 08:32:07 pm
Reeve: 2011-05-23 08:31:42 pm
Quote from mike89:
A future NTSC run would not obsolete this run simply because it had a faster final time. It might obsolete it if it is adjudged to be played significantly better (which would probably need a time of like :42 or :43 based on what I've read in this topic), although based on what I have heard about this run that seems extremely unlikely.

Well, if Red Scarlet's run is obsoleted by time comparision (48 PAL + or - 45/6 NTSC) and a future possible PAL obsoletion by a NTSC run would go through the same process, then it's ok. Red Scarlet's run is a very good run indeed, but it's not updated with the new hardcore tricks (most of them showed in Behemoth's run) of today's runners.
Willing to teach you the impossible
Really, I don't think this is gunna happen. Yes this is a rather extreme case, but still. The rules are in place and the standards have been set for each category. Like in every situation, if it happens here, then all of the site must conform. Then I am sure there are some other runs that would need to follow this new rule as well. This has happened in the past and the old runner decided to have the run they made down, because they thought it was better for SDA (M64 comes to mind with the 70 star run being replaced with the 16 star run). Not exactly the same situation here, but still the general concept follows.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
What Mike89 said.

Quote from Heidrage:
M64 comes to mind with the 70 star run being replaced with the 16 star run


What? The 70-star run was taken down because the runner requested it.