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My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/Sonic3Knuckles.html

Mike 'mike89' McKenzie's run with deaths

Quote:
General Comments:

- Audio/Visual is fine.
- No cheating. Everything that you see, while it may look TASed, is in fact possible on both console and slowed down emulation
- Prepare to see a lot of flying, scrolling, skipping and zipping.

Individual Level Comments:

S3:

AI1:  Looking good right off the bat. Mainly uses flying to cut distances short
AI2: Again, other than flying to save time, everything plays out fine. Robotnik in one cycle is awesome, but it's to be expected
HC1: Let's just jump to the top of the level and go all the way to the Boss area, shall we? Well, the runner does just that! Not much else to say here, this one's short
HC2: Now, the first notable trick: The runner has to kill Tails in order to set up a zip that will send him straight to the Boss area. Can be very difficult to pull off but the runner gets it first try
MG1: Scrolly-scroll and flying saves time.  Another stage that  the runner blazes through without much effort
MG2: Second major trick: Zipping into Knuckles' boss area. This saves a lot of time, because as I remember, Sonic's boss fight is annoying as all hell. Plus it's another difficult trick that the runner gets first try
CN1: This one should be called Zippy Night Zone and you'll see why when you watch the run.  Other than some carefully timed balloon-popping, the runner manages to zip all the way to the Act 1 Boss. Though he gets hit and has to play it safe during the fight (presumably, anyway; maybe it was intentional)
CN2: Has some trouble with the bumpers, but otherwise it looks good
IC1: Thank God that Tails doesn't have to snowboard or we'd be here longer! Partway through, the runner pauses to set up a very useful trick/skip: It goes so far as to skip the entirety of Act 2 sans the Boss! Got hit by a penguin but it didn't cost any time.
IC2: There is no Ice Cap 2. Does not exist
LB1: Gets hit at the start, but no worry, we're zipping right off the bat again! It seems there are a lot of zips that send you straight to (or close to, in this case) the Boss area. Also, the runner has to kill Tails yet again in order to skip the transition into Act 2
LB2: The only thing bad about this is that Knuckles didn't get turned green by that graphical glitch (those who have played should know what I'm talking about). Everything else was well executed, in my opinion. Onto S&K stages!

S&K:

MH1: Boring cutscene is boring and wastes time. Damn you, Knuckles!  Horrible luck with that knockback enemy that throws stuff at you. What else can be said, this stage was great!
MH2: Lost his shield to the chicken but got it back, saves time by flying instead of using the pulley
FB1: Nice job on flying under the platforms to skip most of the stage. Spindashed into the spike thing, but meh, it's okay, didn't hurt his time. One of two bosses that kills itself. Hovering at the end is just to give him a better positioning at the start
FB2: Scrolling, much? Very nicely executed! Then we just sit and wait for the boss to get here. If only Robotnik could move faster, this would have a faster time. Gets hit at the end so he has better positioning to hit the capsule
SO1: Goes for zip, fails and gets it on second try. This is yet another zip that takes you straight to the Boss area. Sega's probably kicking themselves... Getting hit on the boss' last approach is neccessary to get under it
SO2: Good luck to anyone who attempts this completely in the dark (stage-wise). I don't blame the runner for leaving the lights on. This appears to be just another "get-through-as-fast-as-you-can-without-effing-up" level and it was done well
LR1: Spindashed right into lava, but picked up a fire shield to avoid further instances of getting hit by flame. At the end of the Boss fight, he pauses to set up the skip for next Act
LR2: Looks like he tried to get the Boss skip as well, but it didn't work. This skip is new to me, so I'm not sure what's all required for it to work properly. Other than watching the Boss kill itself (which is pretty funny if you think about it), this was very well done. Four more Acts to go!
HP: What else is there to do besides fight Knuckles? Oh, yeah, don't hit spikes, I guess. Knux fight goes okay except for getting hit, but all is forgiven with Knux's AIR GUITAR! Moving on...
SS: Sets up a scroll to get to Mecha Sonic. Quick Boss fight and we thank Sega for not making the stair climb manually controlled!
DE1: The home stretch, folks! The runner pulls out all the stops to get through it quickly but has to deal with that annoying bumper thing and the thing that sends you on that predetermined path (not good with object names, sorry). Gets hit twice by the Boss, but at this point, the run's been done so well, I can let it slide
DE2: Unfortunate death at the beginning, but like I said, it's the last level. I think Han Solo said it best: "Let's blow this thing and go home!" 1st Boss fight goes well (spindash, spike thing hits boss, rinse and repeat), 2nd Boss fight even better (fingers go down quickly, then it's 8 hits before you know it). Get the Emerald and DONE!

Well, with what my comments show, do you even have to guess my verdict? Accept, accept, accept! This was very well done overall and I'm glad to have witnessed it ahead of publication! It was well worth staying up until 4 am!

I guess all that's left now is 100%? Just kidding, I think the runner's done enough for a while!


Quote:
Tails is the only character worth playing in S3&K. That is all.

Video: No complaints
Audio: Gets overpeaked on numerous occasions, mostly in stages with more bass in their BGM/SFX, like CN and the bomber in AI2.

Gameplay/Breakdown:

AI1 - Flawless.
AI2 - Flawless.
HC1 - There's a stage here? Really? This is where the real meat of the run starts.
HC2 - Hydrocity never looked so frivolous.
MG1 - Sexy screenwarping action.
MG2 - Ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip to Knux boss, big timesaver there.
CN1 - Zip to boss, kill, etc.
CN2 - If a game could derp, this might be what it would look like.
IC1/2 - IC1 boss skip go!
LB1 - Another zip to Knux' boss fight. Necessary death.
LB2 - Surprising amount of actual stage in this one. Well executed.
MH1 - Flying over large chunks of stage works too, when no zip is available.
MH2 - Pretty standard stuff. Not much massive skipping, just great execution, aside from a couple enemies being annoying and wasting a couple seconds.
FB1 - I remember seeing that during CGDQ. Excellent shortcut.
FB2 - Yeah, there's a reason for the slow start. Whoooosh.
SO1 - Don't blink, you'll miss it.
SO2 - Ouch, bad luck on those spikes. Otherwise another well executed stage.
LR1 - Well executed, once again.
LR2 - Probably the best zip in the game right here, even though the boss skip part of it doesn't succeed.
HP - Probably the most ordinary stage in the run right here.
SS - Little bit of screenwarp and hey, we're at the boss.
DE1 - Tiny little skip at the start, but it's a timesaver.
DE2 - Unlucky death right at the beginning, but not much time lost.

Summary: Holy crap.

Verdict: Oh god yes.


Quote:
Alright now for mine....

Video: good (although there was some lag during Lava Reef 2 that I've never seen before)
Sound: good
Cheats: none

going to keep this short for once.

really liked the run and is a definite improvement over the previous run here and also makes use of (almost) every new find that folks have discovered.  these games wouldn't be what they are now without zips and this has plenty.  some mistakes here and there, but I'm not going to point those out since the comments already done so (I usually try to point out ones that aren't mentioned). 

Decision: ACCEPT

this however has pissed me off since it just reminds me that competing in this game over at TSC sucks so fucking much now that I just don't even bother with it.


Quote:
Sonic 3 & Knuckles; Tails Run

Aha, I remember this game.  I loved the old Sonic games for the Genesis and the combination of Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles quite possibly received the most played hours on my system.  Back in the day I knew where every special stage entrance was, memorized every special stage, and was able to perfect all of them in one sitting.

It’s been far too long, and I’ve lost a good deal of that knowledge over the years.  Sad really, but I still love this game.

Angel Island
I am probably going to say this a lot, but the runner obviously has very good timing.  Good knowledge of the path he’s chosen and makes it through this stage apparently cleanly.  The runner knows some tricks with Tails I did not.  And his dominance over Robotnik is quite nice.  Though, I am not sure why at the cut scene where Knuckles drops you to the next level, he would waste time jumping up and floating down like that…

Hydrocity Zone
Oh…because it lets you skip a good portion of the next stage.  Nice.
Love the old running on the top of the screen trick.  That’s prevalent in so many games.  Amazingly quick mini-boss fight.  What’s at first a curious death turns into a showcase of an amazing wall glitch, which also bypasses the entire stage.

Marble Garden Zone
I remember this zone as being where, if I was having a good run, I’d complete the special stages and start tearing through the game as Super Sonic/Tails.  And I thought I could do this game quickly…
I have no real words to describe the glitch I just saw in the first act…that’s rather amazing.  How anyone found that is…just…wow…
That was until I saw the SECOND glitch in the second zone.  I mean…damn…I knew the game had some bugs but…I mean, damn…

Carnival Night Zone
This was my make up zone.  If I hadn’t gotten all the emeralds from the special stages by now, I would by this stage.
…I again am at a loss for words as to what just occurred in the first act…and I have no idea what he did to make that mini-boss go as fast.
I feel like I’m watching a clinic on how to glitch the living crap outta this game…who thinks of this stuff?  Sonic 3 is almost completed and we’re like 11:30 into a near 50 minute video. O.o
I do wonder if all of these glitches are due to the combination of the two games, or if Sonic 3 was just that buggy to begin with…

Ice Cap Zone
The obligatory ice level and yeah, I hated this one.  There’s a small hiccup in the video here right at 12:00-12:01 where the video pauses.  I am not sure if that’s the player pausing the game or if that’s just the video screwing up…
Right after that is another pass through the level glitch.  Even with that this level takes forever.  I seemingly don’t remember how long this level is.
…oh wait…I…I…wow…WOOOOOW…okay, that’s amazing.  I didn’t even notice, the runner skipped over Act 1’s boss and bypassed his way to the end of the entire stage.  The game even thought he’d finished Act 1 and the Act 2 screen flashed up before the next stage started.  That’s…that’s just awesome…

Launch Base Zone
At this point I should expect the random skip the entire level glitch, but it’s still amazing to see what the runner has to do to get there.  At this rate, the first stage is looking amazingly boring in comparison…
I have no idea what he did to glitch out the mini-boss either into making the game think it’s dead even though it’s not.  Nor how one would figure out how that thing killing you right after your bonus points are totaled up would help in skipping part of zone 2.

The base blasts off into space and we fight the second to last boss of Sonic 3 without actually fighting the final boss due to the combination of the two games.

Mushroom Hill Zone
So, if you have Super Sonic here, you won’t for much longer as normally this is where you find more special stages to get the Super Emeralds and get…I think it was called Hyper Sonic…not that the runner will do this…just sayin’…
So, the first big disappointment of zone 1 is the clear lack of a level skipping glitch.  With 29 minutes to go in the video though, I feel like I should not expect many more of those.
Ya know…Knuckles really is a jerk…
Good pathing makes for an easy stage.

Flying Battery Zone
Yeah, I wouldn’t call this a Flying Battery, but whatever…
Love how Tails can just skip massive section of a level simply because he can fly.  Not that having two tails would give any creature the ability to actually do that, but hey, it’s a video game with a large blue hedgehog, a large red echidna, and a young fox chasing after a big fat guy turning animals into robots.  I think flying is the least of the reality breaking issues here…
And yeah, I was wrong about the level glitching thing.  I have no idea how this one was even activated, but Tails falls through the floor and breaks the background…and the foreground…and the map…
Hah!  Finally a boss trick I knew…

Sandopolis Zone
Aha yes…the desert…and another level skipping glitch from beginning of the stage to the end of Act 1.  There’s no quick way to beat this mini-boss though as you have to just have him kill himself…well, mostly.  Have him jump to the edge and just give him a nudge…
Act 2…ugh…this could be annoying with the lights and the timed doors. 
The runner getting hit may look like a mistake at times, but I’m positive it’s a way to lower the amount of rings he has for the end stage bonus point count.
And yeah, there’s no real quick way to beat this boss, he’s just that easy if you’re not a wuss Wink

Lava Reef Zone
Well, we had the ice level and now we have a fire level.  Woohoo…I’m positive I would get Hyper Sonic in this stage if I didn’t already have it.
Small glitch this time.  Just through a floor rather than the entire stage.  The fire shield so breaks this level…
There’s another pause in the video…I wonder if that has anything to do with the glitch the runner does here.
Lava Reef freezes over for…some reason…and there ya go…not that we get to see any of it because we just skip to the end of the stage.
Another boss you cannot directly hit.  That makes things slow down in a speed run for sure.  Again, the fire shield just breaks this boss unless you’re just really bad at avoiding very large black spheres.  That boss took over 1 minute by itself.

Hidden Palace Zone
This is more of a story level than anything else.  You “fight” Knuckles, but my God he couldn’t be any easier.  And Knuckles finally learns he’s been a dumbass the entire game.

Sky Sanctuary Zone
I liked this zone if only because you get to fight some old Sonic/Robotnik battles from the old games with Metal Sonic taking his place.
…except that we just skipped past all of that and right to the boss of the act, Metal Sonic himself.

Death Egg Zone
Yes, it’s a Star Wars rip off…it was obvious back in Sonic 2…
I guess I remember this stage taking forever with its forced movements and areas where you just have no control over your character.  Still, act 1 completed in 1:49 is quite impressive.
Another death in zone 2, but this time I think it’s an actual mistake.  I did not see any glitch utilized because of this.  It doesn’t cost a lot of time, maybe 5-7 seconds at most, but still, it’s surprising to see.
Very nice skip over like half of the level too.  Love Tails for that…
Yet another boss you cannot directly hit.  The runner sure has this timing thing down though.  I don’t remember it being THIS easy.

Boss time.  If you were like me, you’d know this isn’t the final boss of the game at all, but it is if you don’t get the emeralds throughout the two games.  And poof, there’s the end of the game.  The “bad” ending, as it were, but still.  And we get treated with the customary remix of the music from the various stages for an end credits theme.

Final thoughts:
Audio/Video Quality: Good.  I’ve mentioned a few pauses but I can’t tell if they’re video hiccups or just the runner pausing the game for a split second.
Cheating: None that I’ve noticed.  Glitching galore, but no signs of mechanics outside the original game influencing the gameplay here.
Gameplay: Rather impressive.  I didn’t know most if any of the glitches used in this run to bypass most of the level, the Ice Cap Zone one being my personal favorite having seen it for the first time here.

Verdict: Easy Accept.  Very nicely done Smiley

The runner points out in his comments where things can be improved, some of it coming down to a bit of luck, but still, this run is nicely crafted.  The death in the final stage is, to me, really the only glaring error of the run.  Granted, I don’t see the nuances other speed runners may, but as a casual gamer who used to play this game all the time, I am impressed.

I really wish someone would challenge a 100% run of this game…that is something I REALLY want to see Wink


Quote:
Video/audio quality's fine.
Didn't see any signs of cheating.

Angel Island: Good.

Hydrocity: Being able to fly over the entire stage sure does simplify it. The zip and boss in HC2 went well.

Marble Garden: Great.

Carvinal Night: Before this run I've never actually seen the CN1 boss beaten without jumping before... That was pretty ridiculous. Navigating with the glitch on CN2 looked improvable, though it also looked pretty difficult. :\

Ice Cap: ...

WTF just happened? That method for the slope glitch is new to me. >_> A couple of mistakes in the rest of the stage, but nothing too major.

Launch Base: Well, that was a quick death. LB2 could have been better, but LB2 never seems to go well...

Mushroom Hill: MH1 again could have gone better, though I guess it could also have gone a lot worse. MH2 was fine.

Flying Battery: Awesome.

Sandopolis: I love that zip. It unfortunately took two tries to do here, but didn't cost much time. Act 2 had a few mistakes (like landing right on those pop-up spikes...) and the boss didn't look that great, though I guess there's not much you can do as Tails.

Lava Reef: Act 1 was fine. Disappointing to not see the LR2 boss skip, though apparently it's a lot harder with Tails. :\

Hidden Palace: Outstanding.

Sky Sanctuary: Amazing!

Death Egg: He died at the beginning of DE2. Reject. DE1 was great. While the death on DE2 is disappointing, it only cost ~3 seconds... That's nowhere near close to being reject-worthy (or worth submitting a 30 second slower run >_>). The rest of the stage went well at any rate.

Accept.


Decision: Accept

Reason: And we wanted Mike89 to submit the marathon run, which was over 10 minutes slower than this run.
Thread title:  
Edit history:
mike89: 2011-03-29 07:13:53 am
mike89: 2011-03-29 07:12:48 am
SEGA Junkie
Meant to say this yesterday but thanks everyone! This is the run I've really been wanting to do ever since Classic Games Done Quick, so it's great to have it done.

Not much to respond to since I explained a -lot- in my comments, but here goes:

Quote from Verifier 3:
Video: good (although there was some lag during Lava Reef 2 that I've never seen before)


Not lag, just my stupid capture card dropping stupid frames. It also happens around the AI2 boss, though that's less noticable since you didn't even pick it up.

Quote from Verifier 4:
Though, I am not sure why at the cut scene where Knuckles drops you to the next level, he would waste time jumping up and floating down like that…


It doesn't waste game time, so it's fair game. Anyway, here's the part in the comments where I explain myself:
[1:34] I left this in here for Nate, who, during my aforementioned Classic Games Done Quick run, told the stream that Tails can’t reach Knuckles here because he can’t fly. I prove that it’s actually an invisible wall that’s to blame. Smiley

Quote from Verifier 4:
I do wonder if all of these glitches are due to the combination of the two games, or if Sonic 3 was just that buggy to begin with…


Oh, you have no idea. Sonic and Knuckles actually fixes some of the larger bugs in the game (such as being completely unable to beat the game without dying as Tails). It also significantly changes the physics, Sonic 3 has a lot of holdover code from Sonic 2 because it was rushed.

Quote from Verifier 4:
There’s a small hiccup in the video here right at 12:00-12:01 where the video pauses.  I am not sure if that’s the player pausing the game or if that’s just the video screwing up…


In-game pause, it's to set up timing for the next trick. I do this in Lava Reef 2 as well.

Quote from Verifier 5:
Navigating with the glitch on CN2 looked improvable, though it also looked pretty difficult. :\


Yeah, it's pretty tricky, but I did screw it up in stupid ways, first by turning too early on the wall at :15, and then by landing on the boxes, because I decided on the fly (THIS IS A BAD THING AND NO SPEEDRUNNER SHOULD EVER DO IT) to hold back a little to try and hit the gap in the bumpers. If you get through all three you can complete act 2 under a minute but the timing for it is just so ridiculous; my brother, who showed me the trick, can only do it with extensive pause abuse and even then only rarely.

Quote from Verifier 5:
WTF just happened? That method for the slope glitch is new to me.


Basically if Tails is on the very right edge of this platform as it makes contact with the wall, he is pushed slightly inside the wall as the platform breaks the big sprite wall, which activates the glitch. You may have seen a different method where Tails stands at the far right edge of the platform, -just- before the point of falling off - that's much harder to line up, though.

Quote from Verifier 5:
Disappointing to not see the LR2 boss skip, though apparently it's a lot harder with Tails. :\


My understanding is that you can't spindash-jump into the step at all with Tails, which makes that skip impossible. However, you can still get in if you use the spindashing through a wall method. The catch with this is that there's only just enough space to build up the speed required to make the screen shift far enough to let you through... and you have to do it from a crumbling platform, so you have precisely one attempt, and if you miss, you have to fly all the way back up to Knuckles. Definitely not happening in a speedrun.

Quote from mikwuyma:
Reason: And we wanted Mike89 to submit the marathon run, which was over 10 minutes slower than this run.


See, I told you, you just didn't know better. Wink
Edit history:
Greenalink: 2011-03-29 10:27:04 am
DS Dictator
Quote:
Oh, you have no idea. Sonic and Knuckles actually fixes some of the larger bugs in the game (such as being completely unable to beat the game without dying as Tails). It also significantly changes the physics, Sonic 3 has a lot of holdover code from Sonic 2 because it was rushed.


To follow it up, there is one notable physics change on the item boxes, try it out on Angel Island Act 2 right before the airship segment.
"Sonic 3" alone engine: Hitting the item box from underneath forces the box to go downwards.
"& Knuckles" engine: Hitting the item box from underneath instantly destroys the box.
weird ... i don't remember making that comment about the end of angel island during cgdq. i must have misspoke due to lack of sleep or something because i know i've known since i was a little kid about that invisible wall. funny though, nice inside joke there.
SEGA Junkie
I've cancelled this submission. Stay tuned to the Sonic 3 topic for additional updates.
did werster already beat your time :-p
The Gaming Lawyer
Quote from mike89:
I've cancelled this submission. Stay tuned to the Sonic 3 topic for additional updates.


What?  Aww...as Verifier #4, I'm kinda disappointed, but can't wait to see what's coming Smiley
SEGA Junkie
Yeah by like 2 minutes Tongue

Any new submission should be sub-30 at this point, to give you an idea of what's coming up.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Well until Mike puts his run on youtube, I'll gladly let anyone who asks download the run, since it's a great run regardless.
Magical. Flying. Bathtub
Ooh, yes please!  can you let me have the download please mikwuyma?
I'm mostly a browser, but I've always loved Sonic 3 & Knuckles.  I know this run will be out-dated soon, but I would love to have a look at it, with your permission.  Of course, then I'll watch the next one that Mike89 comes out with as well...
SEGA Junkie
I've uploaded this run here. I think the comments are slightly out of date but whatever. I'll go back and fix them. Maybe.